SeikeNz.3526 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge what other class have traits like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > what other class have traits like that? Berserker has a -300 toughness penalty if you pick it. Soul Beast loses pet swap. I think either holo or scrapper loses vitality. Anet were adding trade offs for picking elite specs. But it seems they never got around to doing it to every elite specialization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Engineer losing Vitality from Scrapper, Spellbreaker losing level 2 and level 3 burst skills, Daredevil losing Steal Range, Berserker losing Burst alltogether. So, uh, most of them, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > what other class have traits like that? Apparently you've never selected and played Druid or Renegade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 You forgot to mention: * Mirages gain lots of Mirrors and Jaunt for an evade, but can pretty much do anything with that evade. * Chronomancers get a shield and more effective clones for less control over shatters. It's almost as if people refuse to even try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > what other class have traits like that? Weaver has a reworked attunement system Berserker loses bursts Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills Scourge loses shroud Scrapper loses vitality+f5 Holosmith loses f5 Renegade loses the energy gain skill Herald loses the energy gain skill Soulbeast will lose a pet next path So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos.7460 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > what other class have traits like that? revenant, losing stunbrake on legendswap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeikeNz.3526 Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said: > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > > > what other class have traits like that? > > Weaver has a reworked attunement system gain new skills with better dmg > Berserker loses bursts gain more dmg as trade off > Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts still do the same dmg > Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills gain more dmg > Scourge loses shroud gain barrier and utility > Scrapper loses vitality+f5 gain barrier > Holosmith loses f5 gain everything > Renegade loses the energy gain skill gain other skills > Herald loses the energy gain skill gain more buffs and sustain > Soulbeast will lose a pet next path can merge and gain more stats/skills > > So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside all these have a good trade-off, what is the trade off of chrono and mirage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > @"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said: > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > > > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > > > > > what other class have traits like that? > > > > Weaver has a reworked attunement system > gain new skills with better dmg > > Berserker loses bursts > gain more dmg as trade off > > Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts > still do the same dmg > > Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills > gain more dmg > > Scourge loses shroud > gain barrier and utility > > Scrapper loses vitality+f5 > gain barrier > > Holosmith loses f5 > gain everything > > Renegade loses the energy gain skill > gain other skills > > Herald loses the energy gain skill > gain more buffs and sustain > > Soulbeast will lose a pet next path > can merge and gain more stats/skills > > > > So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside > > all these have a good trade-off, what is the trade off of chrono and mirage > Gain ability to reuse phantasm and refresh all cooldowns More mirage cloaks built into skills and traits, and gain extra dps and skill in ambushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 And mirage and chrono also gain new things too. You can't say that Soulbeast being reduced to 1 pet "isn't a trade off because they get more skills" and then ignore that Mirage and Chrono also get additional skills in exchange for the stuff they lose. Whether you think the trade-off is "good" or "worth it" is irrelevant. Mesmer is not the "only" class with this kind of deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeikeNz.3526 Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > @"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said: > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > > > > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > > > > > > > what other class have traits like that? > > > > > > Weaver has a reworked attunement system > > gain new skills with better dmg > > > Berserker loses bursts > > gain more dmg as trade off > > > Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts > > still do the same dmg > > > Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills > > gain more dmg > > > Scourge loses shroud > > gain barrier and utility > > > Scrapper loses vitality+f5 > > gain barrier > > > Holosmith loses f5 > > gain everything > > > Renegade loses the energy gain skill > > gain other skills > > > Herald loses the energy gain skill > > gain more buffs and sustain > > > Soulbeast will lose a pet next path > > can merge and gain more stats/skills > > > > > > So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside > > > > all these have a good trade-off, what is the trade off of chrono and mirage > > > > Gain ability to reuse phantasm and refresh all cooldowns it would be a trade off if you could use it every 20s or so, you use it one time per game and most times you just back in time with lower life and skills on cd, since you need to use the phantasm before to generate clones so you could use it. > More mirage cloaks built into skills and traits, and gain extra dps and skill in ambushes. mirage cloak is a class mechanic so without it you are just a normal mesmer, losing 1 dodge is like a downgrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > @"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said: > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > > > > > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > > > > > > > > > what other class have traits like that? > > > > > > > > Weaver has a reworked attunement system > > > gain new skills with better dmg > > > > Berserker loses bursts > > > gain more dmg as trade off > > > > Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts > > > still do the same dmg > > > > Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills > > > gain more dmg > > > > Scourge loses shroud > > > gain barrier and utility > > > > Scrapper loses vitality+f5 > > > gain barrier > > > > Holosmith loses f5 > > > gain everything > > > > Renegade loses the energy gain skill > > > gain other skills > > > > Herald loses the energy gain skill > > > gain more buffs and sustain > > > > Soulbeast will lose a pet next path > > > can merge and gain more stats/skills > > > > > > > > So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside > > > > > > all these have a good trade-off, what is the trade off of chrono and mirage > > > > > > > Gain ability to reuse phantasm and refresh all cooldowns > it would be a trade off if you could use it every 20s or so, you use it one time per game and most times you just back in time with lower life > > More mirage cloaks built into skills and traits, and gain extra dps and skill in ambushes. > mirage cloak is a class mechanic so without it you are just a normal mesmer, losing 1 dodge is like a downgrade > Yeah, no. Refreshing all your cooldowns can never be a 20 sec cooldown, lol. Mirage can gain Cloak in many other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > @"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said: > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > > > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > > > > > what other class have traits like that? > > > > Weaver has a reworked attunement system > gain new skills with better dmg > > Berserker loses bursts > gain more dmg as trade off > > Spellbreaker loses lvl 2/3 bursts > still do the same dmg > > Reaper has faster shroud degen and completely differenty skills > gain more dmg > > Scourge loses shroud > gain barrier and utility > > Scrapper loses vitality+f5 > gain barrier > > Holosmith loses f5 > gain everything > > Renegade loses the energy gain skill > gain other skills > > Herald loses the energy gain skill > gain more buffs and sustain > > Soulbeast will lose a pet next path > can merge and gain more stats/skills > > > > So that would be most of the elite spec having either a clear downside or something that isn't just pure upside > > all these have a good trade-off, what is the trade off of chrono and mirage > Chrono doesn't know what it wants to be and needs a full rework Mirage cloak has some pretty clear upsides compared to normal dodge, useable while stunned, doesn't make you unable to use skills, gives you ambush skills etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Yeah, no. > Refreshing all your cooldowns can never be a 20 sec cooldown, lol. At the very least, it should not be 105 seconds. 60 or 72 is fine, and you don't refresh all your cds. > Mirage can gain Cloak in many other ways. By walking to mirrors, such deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > Yeah, no. > > Refreshing all your cooldowns can never be a 20 sec cooldown, lol. > At the very least, it should not be 105 seconds. 60 or 72 is fine, and you don't refresh all your cds. > > > Mirage can gain Cloak in many other ways. > By walking to mirrors, such deception. > Yeah deception skills and desert distortion. Still get I frames from distortion as well, better than ok only 1 sec like chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Your 1 dodge is the only dodge in game that can be used and cast stuff at the same time. Stomping, also use it while being stunned etc. Thats already beyond broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > And mirage and chrono also gain new things too. > > You can't say that Soulbeast being reduced to 1 pet "isn't a trade off because they get more skills" and then ignore that Mirage and Chrono also get additional skills in exchange for the stuff they lose. > > Whether you think the trade-off is "good" or "worth it" is irrelevant. Mesmer is not the "only" class with this kind of deal. > Necros got tons of trade offs as do Eles. Eles for instance on tempest? limited teleports for instance, but gets more invulns(now you get locked out for abit when you use invuln) Necros? they are now more vulnerable than ever if these changes come out to stuns because they got huge stability nerf. Also, druids got nerfed in the modifiers to the heals for CA and I think 3 the best one with blind got nerfed which hurts druid and heals modifier on CA but the condi cleanses got buffed for all CA. I don't fully understand mesmer yet and I don't even fully know everything about ranger nor do I pretend to know everything about necro or ele, just a Just in case moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 peeps are forgeting that "mirage cloak" covers 2 built in traits. other classes cover 1, meaning that trade of is losing 1 trait. losing dodge distance and losing 50 endurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reikken.4961 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > peeps are forgeting that > "mirage cloak" covers 2 built in traits. > other classes cover 1, meaning that trade of is losing 1 trait. losing dodge distance and losing 50 endurance. you don't lose dodge distance though. mirage cloak gives you +66% move speed while active, so if you're moving you cover the same distance as a normal dodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"reikken.4961" said: > you don't lose dodge distance though. mirage cloak gives you +66% move speed while active, so if you're moving you cover the same distance as a normal dodge Some math: 1 dodge is 300 units in 0.75 seconds in any direction. Mirage dodge is 261 units in 0.75 seconds, only going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysmir.4986 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Daredevil swipe sends its regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ourasa.7306 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 A dodge that works even when stunned, allows for a free attack, and allows a person to control their movement. Sorry, I don’t hate core mesmers and chronos at all (since once you learn their strats, you can fight on fairly even grounds), but this dodge is probably one of the most hated moves in the entire game due to it being a get out of jail for free card. It’s similar to Twist of Fate, but even better, with higher uptime (especially with vigor) and offensive capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix.2386 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > pick chrono -> lose distortion -> lose self shatter > pick mirage -> lose 1 dodge > > what other class have traits like that? still gain more OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > Yeah, no. > > > Refreshing all your cooldowns can never be a 20 sec cooldown, lol. > > At the very least, it should not be 105 seconds. 60 or 72 is fine, and you don't refresh all your cds. > > > > > Mirage can gain Cloak in many other ways. > > By walking to mirrors, such deception. > > > > Yeah deception skills and desert distortion. Still get I frames from distortion as well, better than ok only 1 sec like chrono. > > Regarding Mirage: Mirrors are a terrible design and do not replace the evade. Most of the Mirage utility skills aren't worth it, and will be even less worth it after patch. The only one that has ever seen real play is Illusionary Ambush and that was only after portal nerfs. Trait-ing (so note even baseline) to gain a max of 3 spread out mirrors (or sometimes way to close together) after blowing a 50 sec defensive cooldown, that you have to walk into, or waste a jaunt into is not a benefit significant enough requiring a draw back. Even if you include the one on heal. If it did, I'd rather the mirrors be removed as they themselves are more of a draw back, since this completely removes the point of having target drops. It creates a clear indicator where the mirage would have to go given the high amount of cleave- and this at best being a 3 second extension to a 4 second invuln, which may be strong in PvE, but is vastly inferior compared to ranger/thief/ele/rev/war's "on demand-readily available" access to dodge. Being able to do it contextually and actively react to what is present. If they killed mirrors and mirage cloak lasted 2 seconds or something silly like that, then maybe having only one access dodge would be justifiable... But even then I find that significantly worse than two 3/4 second dodges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 > @"bluri.2653" said: > Your 1 dodge is the only dodge in game that can be used and cast stuff at the same time. > > Stomping, also use it while being stunned etc. > > Thats already beyond broken I'm curious of how high you can climb with this broken stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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