mirage 1 dodge roll????serious

[Curunen.8729]

@"bravan.3876" Only have time for a short reply now. I hear you and am not particularly attached to either way. The reality is it is extremely rare for Anet to go backwards on a change no matter how bad it is, hence I'm looking at what can be done further to make this functional.

 

Also as @"Zoser.7245" said, we have all strongly advocated and written many walls of text over the last couple of years (myself mostly in mes forum) regarding shifting clone ambush damage from clones to player, making IH minor to balance the whole spec sround, and so on. Personally I throw my hands in the air and "give up". It's a shame the direction in which mirage has been forced over last couple of years, but it's evident that nothing makes much difference.

 

And a side note, Elusive Mind is the most boring uninspired design which is still useless because Mirage is unplayable without IH. Funny thing is if we had two dodges then Elusive Mind would be overpowered cleanse - could be virtually immune to condi between that, jaunt and sigils, because it was already strong just with one cleanse in the past. And again the myriad suggestions for interesting/unique versions of this trait have come to nothing.

 

It's always going to be the path of least resistance for maximal gain when it comes to these changes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mirage sit like this for the next year or more, though would be happy for Anet to prove me wrong and iterate more swiftly than in the past.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"James.1065" said:

> Sounds like one of those players that believe it was ok to keep mesmer untouchable in battle

 

Sounds like one of those players that couldn't find the real mesmer :)

 

Mirage was outevaded by 6 out of 8 classes as a supposedly evasive espec. Now it's outevaded by 8/8 xD

[Odik.4587]

> @"James.1065" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Lost Elegy.9276" said:

> > > Awww, a mesmer is mad that their infinite invulnerability chain was nerfed. Poor baby.

> > So, according to you having 2 evades equals to have infinite invulnerability chain, even quadriplefacepalm wont be enough here

>

> Sounds like one of those players that believe it was ok to keep mesmer untouchable in battle while reapers were kept naked of all blocks, evades, invunerbility and mobility because "It had a 2nd life bar".

>

> The wheel of fortunes has turned my friend, get used to karma in the form of core necro!

I dont see any argument but angry mumbling from salty necro main

[bravan.3876]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> @"bravan.3876"

> And a side note, Elusive Mind is the most boring uninspired design which is still useless because Mirage is unplayable without IH. Funny thing is if we had two dodges then Elusive Mind would be overpowered cleanse - could be virtually immune to condi between that, jaunt and sigils, because it was already strong just with one cleanse in the past. And again the myriad suggestions for interesting/unique versions of this trait have come to nothing.

Yes i made a suggestion for reworked major GM traits (based on IH being minor) after the suggestion with IH as baseline for Mirage came up from some ppl back then. Don't remember exactly what i wrote back then. Something more dependent on the numbers of clones up. Like a dodge with less than 2 or 3 clones up removes only one condition and a 2-3 clone dodge removes 2 conditions. So the Mirage has to manage clones for either an emergency remove of one condition with high stacks (for example after eating 5 stacks burn) or for a delayed condiremove but for that more condis getting removed with a more clone dodge. That would add some decision making and tactical deepness into the dodge management while running the condiremove trait which otherwise would be just a passive mistake cover when playing vs condi builds. Everyone who knows how to avoid condiburst would run the more active and bursty IH or Dune Cloak (if they have a useful one) anyway. What is fine because you can reward ppl for not running mistake cover traits and more active/ tactical traits with some more dmg or utility.

Stuff that needs more skill can be and should be a little bit stronger in its rewards than mistake cover and low skill ceiling stuff.

[Gogdarth.6741]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

 

> It's always going to be the path of least resistance for maximal gain when it comes to these changes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mirage sit like this for the next year or more, though would be happy for Anet to prove me wrong and iterate more swiftly than in the past.

 

I 100% get what you're saying, but I think most of us are done with compromises for their futile, unsatisfactory "changes". We've been bargaining and pleading and suggesting for years, and I wish there were more people around who still care about the class to voice concerns. Plottwist, numbers are extremely thin and most either rerolled or dropped the game entirely.

 

While it may seem like "so what, just mesmers", it's actually a big chunk of the playerbase, since there's just 9 classes.

 

> @"James.1065" said:

 

>

> Sounds like one of those players that believe it was ok to keep mesmer untouchable in battle while reapers were kept naked of all blocks, evades, invunerbility and mobility because "It had a 2nd life bar".

>

> The wheel of fortunes has turned my friend, get used to karma in the form of core necro!

 

So-o, you're gloating on mesmer becoming garbage while you're forced to play snorefest core necro CC-chain spammer while Scourge and Reaper are both suboptimal? Guess karma works faster than you've anticipated, then. You should probably advocate on positive changes, rather than gloating on someone else's years-long grieffest. Believe it or not, making fun of class falling out of viability doesn't make your unfortunate situation any better.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

 

But no. It's ok for trade offs but there was nothing to compensate at all, a faster regen on vigor would be nice or restore some of the vigor nerfs previously. Just removing 50 endurance was like a suker punch, even if mirage cloak it self was busted above all other dodge mechanics

[Gogdarth.6741]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

>

> But no. It's ok for trade offs but there was nothing to compensate at all, a faster regen on vigor would be nice or restore some of the vigor nerfs previously. Just removing 50 endurance was like a suker punch, even if mirage cloak it self was busted above all other dodge mechanics

 

Most kinda miss the point of whole "why mirage is trash now" thing. It's not just the dodge thing, dodge is merely icing on the cake. No Deadshot amulet, massive reductions to defensive utilities, no Expertise at all across the board, coupled with shaves to base durations of condi, no less than 50% and in case of Sharper Images - even more, Axe is still not worth using over Scepter (lol) and all of that combines into "Core is just better at what Mirage is supposed to do". I'm not even going to mention power mirage playstyle, but I will say this: Big oof.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

 

You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

 

This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

 

Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

 

And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

 

Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

 

 

So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

>

> You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

>

> This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

>

> Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

>

> And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

>

> Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

>

>

> So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

>

 

Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/

 

Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant

[bravan.3876]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

> >

> > You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

> >

> > This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

> >

> > Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

> >

> > And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

> >

> > Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

> >

> >

> > So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

> >

>

> Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/

>

> Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant

 

Passive evade traits are dumbed down too but that is a completely different thing compared to active endurance dodges. Comparsion doesn't make sense. Ofc the moment you can just nearly perma chain active dodges it would also be dumbed down (like some Thief builds can). But Mirages were far away from that already. Even more Mirage was outdodged by most other classes already.

 

I think i already explained well and detailed, why a 2 dodge bar was minimum limit since game release to provide tactical deepness and the freedom of decision making for a skillful and active and not spammy dodgemanagement (in a combat system GW2 has, with enurance reggen and vigor) and why overlimiting dodge bar is a dumb down move (just as underlimiting dodge bar or dodges in general for nearly perma chaining is a dumb down too. It is all about finding a good equilibrium to maximize skill ceiling), not only on Mirage. Mirage just gets double dumbed down for already explained reasons (contradicing the whole elite mechanic, makes active and well timed pure offensive dodges for ambush rewards impossible etc). But yes that wrong logical deduction you made is easy to do. It seems right on the first view. And missing that reducing dodge uptime is only right on a situation when active dodges can be chained too much but not when you start to overlimit it. But even on builds that rly could nearly perma chain active dodges you would not reduce dodge bar to 1 , you would reduce endurance reggen and if needed higher some cds on weapon and utility skills providing an evade.

 

Daredevil as the other spec build around stronger dodges even got more dodges not less than other classes, what was not rly needed but it shows that there are reasons you have to give specs build around doing more with dodges than only evading attacks a minimum of the basic resource to work as intended. Mirage go not only overnerfed in dodges (like too slow endurance reggen, no vigor uptime anymore and double cds on weaponskills with evade included, which would have the same effect) it got overnerfed in a way that contradicts the basic gamewide rule of skillful dodge management from heaving an (at least or better exactly) 2 dodges endurance bar.

 

And now, after you already killed skill ceiling from dodge management (even doubled on Mirage), you now want to compensate the skill ceiling deleting overnerf on the endurance bar with more endurance reggen or higher vigor uptime, what will make the dodge management even less reactive, even more spammy on cd to not waste endurance reggen. Triple dumb down for Mirage. While the problem of the too passive/ too high condi clone dmg is not even solved by its roots.

 

Mirages dodge management didn't get any harder, it got easier and it got even more passive. You simple doesn't have any possibility to use your dodges for tactical moves, so no need to think about that anymore, no opportunity costs, no harder decision making. And that on a spec that is supposed to use dodges also offensive to actively and reactive time them for ambush rewards. What now is simply impossible. And you are even forced to spam dodges when the endurance bar is full to not waste endurance reggen.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Trying to make axe mirage work with the one dodge nerf. I feel compelled.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > > Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

> > >

> > > You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

> > >

> > > This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

> > >

> > > Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

> > >

> > > And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

> > >

> > > Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

> > >

> > >

> > > So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

> > >

> >

> > Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/

> >

> > Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant

>

> Passive evade traits are dumbed down too but that is a completely different thing compared to active endurance dodges. Comparsion doesn't make sense. Ofc the moment you can just nearly perma chain active dodges it would also be dumbed down (like some Thief builds can). But Mirages were far away from that already. Even more Mirage was outdodged by most other classes already.

>

> I think i already explained well and detailed, why a 2 dodge bar was minimum limit since game release to provide tactical deepness and the freedom of decision making for a skillful and active and not spammy dodgemanagement (in a combat system GW2 has, with enurance reggen and vigor) and why overlimiting dodge bar is a dumb down move (just as underlimiting dodge bar or dodges in general for nearly perma chaining is a dumb down too. It is all about finding a good equilibrium to maximize skill ceiling), not only on Mirage. Mirage just gets double dumbed down for already explained reasons (contradicing the whole elite mechanic, makes active and well timed pure offensive dodges for ambush rewards impossible etc). But yes that wrong logical deduction you made is easy to do. It seems right on the first view. And missing that reducing dodge uptime is only right on a situation when active dodges can be chained too much but not when you start to overlimit it. But even on builds that rly could nearly perma chain active dodges you would not reduce dodge bar to 1 , you would reduce endurance reggen and if needed higher some cds on weapon and utility skills providing an evade.

>

> Daredevil as the other spec build around stronger dodges even got more dodges not less than other classes, what was not rly needed but it shows that there are reasons you have to give specs build around doing more with dodges than only evading attacks a minimum of the basic resource to work as intended. Mirage go not only overnerfed in dodges (like too slow endurance reggen, no vigor uptime anymore and double cds on weaponskills with evade included, which would have the same effect) it got overnerfed in a way that contradicts the basic gamewide rule of skillful dodge management from heaving an (at least or better exactly) 2 dodges endurance bar.

>

> And now, after you already killed skill ceiling form dodge management (even doubled on Mirage), you now want to compensate the skill ceiling deleting overnerf on the endurance bar with more endurance reggen or higher vigor uptime, what will make the dodge management even less reactive, even more spammy on cd to not waste endurance reggen. Triple dumb down for Mirage. While the problem of the too passive/ too high condi clone dmg is not even solved by its roots.

>

> Mirages dodge management didn't get any harder, it got easier and it got even more passive. You simple doesn't have any possibility to use your dodges for tactical moves, so no need to think about that anymore, no opportunity costs, no harder decision making. And that on a spec that is supposed to use dodges also offensive to actively and reactive time them for ambush rewards. What now is simply impossible. And you are even forced to spam dodges when the endurance bar is full to not waste endurance reggen.

 

Pretty much sums it up! Ty

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

> >

> > You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

> >

> > This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

> >

> > Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

> >

> > And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

> >

> > Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

> >

> >

> > So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

> >

>

> Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/

>

> Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant

 

nope, unless you spam evade off CD on mirage you are wasting endurance.

so the only way to use mirage to its fullest potential is to use dodge OFF cooldown, if that is not dumbing down that I dont know what is :D

[Heika.5403]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

> >

> > You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

> >

> > This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

> >

> > Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

> >

> > And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

> >

> > Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

> >

> >

> > So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

> >

>

> Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/

>

> Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant

 

The lose of a dodge cripple the Mirage completely. Now, even if you feel the necesity to use your single dodge as often as you can for do damage and not waste your endurance regeneration while others can refill they two ones for several purposes, including damage through traits. You now can't play tactically with your dodges/ambushes because you'll be always very vulnerable as you usually use your utilities to engage and disengage plus stunbreak, etc. So you'll always keep your single dodge for defensive purposes that will be more valuable in a meta where the CC is dominant and your single ambush can't change nothing with the actual lower damage while things like Vault still hit for 15K. Don't woth use the ambush in exchange of die against a big hit from others, a combo or long CC. That dodge single dodge is too valuable defensively. The only single case where an ambush now worth is if you have all in CD and by casuality, you find an enemy with low health that is already in combat to try to down him and only if you watch that no ones can engage you once you lose your single dodge.

 

So instead a more tactical play with several alternatives like double ambush to burst, a single one to help your dps while keeping the second one always as a secure defense or let both dodges reload to gain more combos, for example. Now you are relegated to use it in a single way. All the contrary play style that Mirage should encourage with its ambush mechanic and fast pace. A total FAILED balance decision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its a simple BIG NERF in all senses offensive and defensive plus a cripple to the basic Mirage mechanic.

 

There are a lot of ways to balance the Mirage. For example, as someone mentioned above (Zoser i believe), by requiring more endurance per dodge to tune down the pace of the Mirage but without crippling and destroying its mechanic with a single dodge. Or maybe reworking ambush skills or something else. I am terrified to see the bad decisions that Arenanet sometimes makes to balance, especially since when they alter something, they tend not to want to change it again. I hope this time is not the case. For now we already lost our two specializations in competitive modes due to NOT be competitives. Sigh.

 

I'm now building alternatives in other professions for all game modes. Although, i'll still play Mirage sometimes in PvP, mostly in chill mode for fun and watch the rage of those that wanted the Mirage nerfed and now lose each game where a crippled Mirage is in their team.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Trying to make axe mirage work with the one dodge nerf. I feel compelled.

 

it might actually be semi doable, as long as you attack someone without much cleansing you can kinda burst condi, stealth and wait out burst condi again.

if that doesnt work you run like mofo.

Still kills baddies so peeps will complain :D

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I find it funny that when PoF was released mesmers were saying ANerf what needed to be nerfed and were ignored for two years, culminating in a dead spec.

Actually that might be the reason why mesmers elite specs are dead, because mesmers suggested nerfs. I don't think there are other professions suggesting nerfs on their own professions.

There are some rangers and engies out there that suggested nerfs on their own professions but once you see the nerf they suggest it's actually a buff, so not the same thing.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Gogdarth.6741" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

>

> > It's always going to be the path of least resistance for maximal gain when it comes to these changes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mirage sit like this for the next year or more, though would be happy for Anet to prove me wrong and iterate more swiftly than in the past.

>

> I 100% get what you're saying, but I think most of us are done with compromises for their futile, unsatisfactory "changes". We've been bargaining and pleading and suggesting for years, and I wish there were more people around who still care about the class to voice concerns. Plottwist, numbers are extremely thin and most either rerolled or dropped the game entirely.

>

> While it may seem like "so what, just mesmers", it's actually a big chunk of the playerbase, since there's just 9 classes.

 

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"bravan.3876"

> > And a side note, Elusive Mind is the most boring uninspired design which is still useless because Mirage is unplayable without IH. Funny thing is if we had two dodges then Elusive Mind would be overpowered cleanse - could be virtually immune to condi between that, jaunt and sigils, because it was already strong just with one cleanse in the past. And again the myriad suggestions for interesting/unique versions of this trait have come to nothing.

> Yes i made a suggestion for reworked major GM traits (based on IH being minor) after the suggestion with IH as baseline for Mirage came up from some ppl back then. Don't remember exactly what i wrote back then. Something more dependent on the numbers of clones up. Like a dodge with less than 2 or 3 clones up removes only one condition and a 2-3 clone dodge removes 2 conditions. So the Mirage has to manage clones for either an emergency remove of one condition with high stacks (for example after eating 5 stacks burn) or for a delayed condiremove but for that more condis getting removed with a more clone dodge. That would add some decision making and tactical deepness into the dodge management while running the condiremove trait which otherwise would be just a passive mistake cover when playing vs condi builds. Everyone who knows how to avoid condiburst would run the more active and bursty IH or Dune Cloak (if they have a useful one) anyway. What is fine because you can reward ppl for not running mistake cover traits and more active/ tactical traits with some more dmg or utility.

> Stuff that needs more skill can be and should be a little bit stronger in its rewards than mistake cover and low skill ceiling stuff.

 

Yeah this is the reason why I don't feel like the effort for writing much detail anymore. There's always hope and I like the overall direction of this patch, but with certain changes like this I'll believe it when I see it, when it comes to swift iteration.

 

What has happened in my cynical view is this:

"let's do this quick and crude edit to mirage to (perhaps temporarily) remove it from meta for a while to keep things fresh with standard cyclical balance, and at the same time gauge the community reaction over the next few ~~weeks months~~ years (/s) to see how they handle it" Doesn't matter there's pretty much only one way to build, and almost crutching hard in terms of wvw on the still unnerfed dodge food and energy/adventurer sigils/runes, where the spec is still somewhat playable.

 

I've been an advocate of gm minor IH for the whole time, because it is clear that mirage needs to be balanced around this trait, as well as a heavy offload of clone ambush damage to player ambush, such that clone ambushes are largely utility and visual effect (red herring).

 

Though ideally we should have had shatter skills changed for both Chrono and Mirage, such that Chrono could have had pulsing pbaoe fields around the player or similar, and mirage could have had clone ambush commands or similar mechanic from F1 through to F4 (shatter traits could apply to ambush hits, or direct effect on player, etc).

 

This would have maintained Core as the original shatter spec, and both Chrono and Mirage to truly play in a different way. Ambush should have been the main focus of Mirage, but now we have gimped access to elite spec mechanic (which is still inherently strong) and standard shatters making Mirage a weird mishmash of no clear direction.

 

But given that Mirage has all it's mechanics tied into dodge, it's kind of difficult to get out of this spiralling rabbit hole. I mean on one hand you could look at mirage as:

**"loses the ability to dodge entirely, which is replaced by a new skill with 10s base cooldown (mirage cloak) that provides unique defensive and offensive benefits (evade at any time, and access to ambushes)"**

With two dodges it could be considered an ammo skill with 2 charges, of which the "cooldown" is reduced by "alacrity" (read: vigour) and direct reductions through gear (energy/adventurer).

 

In this way it could be interpreted that they did a similar thing as with Jaunt from 3 charges to 2, reducing our unique "skill" from 2 charges to 1.

 

Looking at it in this way is one of the few ways I can accept the change, especially if in addition one can consider certain utility or weapon skills are intended to effectively be "dodges" packaged in a different form - ie Sand through Glass, mirror generating skills, Illusionary Ambush, Axe 3, etc. They just happen to be in a different place on the UI, like the endurance bar happens to be a different place for a "skill" - doesn't matter where the evade frame comes from when changing one's perspective in this way, even if there are massive issues with the current state of Mirage.

 

But whatever the case I am not optimistic enough to waste more time writing my thoughts on where this spec could go, having already done all that over last couple of years. Suffice to say I'm content in playing for the pretty colours, supplemented by occasionally fun gameplay. Funnily enough I'd be more bothered at this point by audio and visual effect changes that I hated compared to mechanic changes.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Gogdarth.6741" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> >

> > > It's always going to be the path of least resistance for maximal gain when it comes to these changes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mirage sit like this for the next year or more, though would be happy for Anet to prove me wrong and iterate more swiftly than in the past.

> >

> > I 100% get what you're saying, but I think most of us are done with compromises for their futile, unsatisfactory "changes". We've been bargaining and pleading and suggesting for years, and I wish there were more people around who still care about the class to voice concerns. Plottwist, numbers are extremely thin and most either rerolled or dropped the game entirely.

> >

> > While it may seem like "so what, just mesmers", it's actually a big chunk of the playerbase, since there's just 9 classes.

>

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876"

> > > And a side note, Elusive Mind is the most boring uninspired design which is still useless because Mirage is unplayable without IH. Funny thing is if we had two dodges then Elusive Mind would be overpowered cleanse - could be virtually immune to condi between that, jaunt and sigils, because it was already strong just with one cleanse in the past. And again the myriad suggestions for interesting/unique versions of this trait have come to nothing.

> > Yes i made a suggestion for reworked major GM traits (based on IH being minor) after the suggestion with IH as baseline for Mirage came up from some ppl back then. Don't remember exactly what i wrote back then. Something more dependent on the numbers of clones up. Like a dodge with less than 2 or 3 clones up removes only one condition and a 2-3 clone dodge removes 2 conditions. So the Mirage has to manage clones for either an emergency remove of one condition with high stacks (for example after eating 5 stacks burn) or for a delayed condiremove but for that more condis getting removed with a more clone dodge. That would add some decision making and tactical deepness into the dodge management while running the condiremove trait which otherwise would be just a passive mistake cover when playing vs condi builds. Everyone who knows how to avoid condiburst would run the more active and bursty IH or Dune Cloak (if they have a useful one) anyway. What is fine because you can reward ppl for not running mistake cover traits and more active/ tactical traits with some more dmg or utility.

> > Stuff that needs more skill can be and should be a little bit stronger in its rewards than mistake cover and low skill ceiling stuff.

>

> Yeah this is the reason why I don't feel like the effort for writing much detail anymore. There's always hope and I like the overall direction of this patch, but with certain changes like this I'll believe it when I see it, when it comes to swift iteration.

>

> What has happened in my cynical view is this:

> "let's do this quick and crude edit to mirage to (perhaps temporarily) remove it from meta for a while to keep things fresh with standard cyclical balance, and at the same time gauge the community reaction over the next few ~~weeks months~~ years (/s) to see how they handle it" Doesn't matter there's pretty much only one way to build, and almost crutching hard in terms of wvw on the still unnerfed dodge food and energy/adventurer sigils/runes, where the spec is still somewhat playable.

>

> I've been an advocate of gm minor IH for the whole time, because it is clear that mirage needs to be balanced around this trait, as well as a heavy offload of clone ambush damage to player ambush, such that clone ambushes are largely utility and visual effect (red herring).

>

> Though ideally we should have had shatter skills changed for both Chrono and Mirage, such that Chrono could have had pulsing pbaoe fields around the player or similar, and mirage could have had clone ambush commands or similar mechanic from F1 through to F4 (shatter traits could apply to ambush hits, or direct effect on player, etc).

>

> This would have maintained Core as the original shatter spec, and both Chrono and Mirage to truly play in a different way. Ambush should have been the main focus of Mirage, but now we have kitten access to elite spec mechanic (which is still inherently strong) and standard shatters making Mirage a weird mishmash of no clear direction.

>

> But given that Mirage has all it's mechanics tied into dodge, it's kind of difficult to get out of this spiralling rabbit hole. I mean on one hand you could look at mirage as:

> **"loses the ability to dodge entirely, which is replaced by a new skill with 10s base cooldown (mirage cloak) that provides unique defensive and offensive benefits (evade at any time, and access to ambushes)"**

> With two dodges it could be considered an ammo skill with 2 charges, of which the "cooldown" is reduced by "alacrity" (read: vigour) and direct reductions through gear (energy/adventurer).

>

> In this way it could be interpreted that they did a similar thing as with Jaunt from 3 charges to 2, reducing our unique "skill" from 2 charges to 1.

>

> Looking at it in this way is one of the few ways I can accept the change, especially if in addition one can consider certain utility or weapon skills are intended to effectively be "dodges" packaged in a different form - ie Sand through Glass, mirror generating skills, Illusionary Ambush, Axe 3, etc. They just happen to be in a different place on the UI, like the endurance bar happens to be a different place for a "skill" - doesn't matter where the evade frame comes from when changing one's perspective in this way, even if there are massive issues with the current state of Mirage.

>

> But whatever the case I am not optimistic enough to waste more time writing my thoughts on where this spec could go, having already done all that over last couple of years. Suffice to say I'm content in playing for the pretty colours, supplemented by occasionally fun gameplay. Funnily enough I'd be more bothered at this point by audio and visual effect changes that I hated compared to mechanic changes.

 

Yeas i feel ya, same for me. Feels like talking to a wall. Neither Anet seems to read and rethink , neither ppl in this forum, considering that i have to write the same stuff over and over again to each single person decides to jump into forum and comes up with the same stupid complains and nonsense balance suggetions already were made several times and got proved wrong already several times. Ppl never do the effort to check forums if something they want to say got discussed already.

 

Making the game more clunky and unfun without even adding skillneed to the game/ classes/ elites seems the long term goal of the current balance team, when looking at other stupid clunky changes on other classes. Mesmer only was the first and currently hardest hit class with both elites deleted from competitive modes. The Daredevil trade off with insanely clunky short range Swipe but compensated by unhealthy unblockable feature is just as nonsense. Obsidian change on Ele compeltely clunky and nonsense. Soulbeast trade off another nonsense doesn't even solve the issues at the roots. I like the overall philosophy of the last patch (just delete all the now overtanky stuff) but there are so many outliners with insanely stupid and unlogical clunky changes completely lack in game/class knowledge and balance skill that is literally shocking.

[hayabusafmw.9370]

No one forces you to play snowflakes wars... Just do like most of us delete and move on. That's what is best. No need to complain. I stopped yesterday to complain. Sure i'll comment on what i think but it's done.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

To all of yall upset about the 1 dodge mirage, fought a Mirage in the arena called "Baby Yoda" or something along those lines, and almost got my kitten handed to me on zerker and thief.

Mirage still potentially viable. Particularly axe.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> To all of yall upset about the 1 dodge mirage, fought a Mirage in the arena called "Baby Yoda" or something along those lines, and almost got my kitten handed to me on zerker and thief.

> Mirage still potentially viable. Particularly axe.

 

I only do wvw nowdays, and while crutching hard on food am still enjoying standard hybrid axe play. More testing needed to experience a variety of scenarios, but so far I'm still going to be playing axe mirage there.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

I want to see how developers play this profession to make this stupid balance?