Shao.7236 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 All these suggestions mostly kill stealth altogether, the principle around should be reactive upon an ambush, this is why Reveal should be given upon any skills that are strong or have a cast time, if they don't they should. It would be a lot easier to manage the game if the problem was tackled at it's core which is the ability to do damage that nobody can anticipate. If Backstab is too short of a skill, extend it so that players are Revealed just before getting backstabbed. Makes the situation entirely reactive and this is how the game mostly does everything else. For example, if Mirror Blade was to Reveal before hand, we wouldn't have this much of a rampant issue with players complaining about the burst since they get to react. Literally, the only thing you have to look for is an anomaly on the screen to press evade, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallic.2397 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Currently? Core Engineer. And Im saying that stealth is split. Out of combat, i.e. "burst from an enemy you didnt even know was there", its stupid and unfun. In-combat, its actually rather useless unless youre Mesmer (who has Clones that remove both of in-combat stealths critical weakness. > I mean, out of combat stealth is dumb, yeah. The fact that you could be bursted by an enemy you didnt even know was there was stupid. But in 2v2? You know theyre there, its pretty much just in-combat stealth. And in-combat stealth is already weak, since it can be easily abused by the enemy to hit damage on you while youre not fighting back. > Prevalent doesnt mean theyre good. DE has been prevalent for a while because people like it (for some reason), even though the build has never been more than a troll build. Shatter Mesmer is better, but not by much. > Unfortunately no. For some reason, rather than fixing out of combat stealth and making in-combat stealth stronger, people just want to nerf (the already underperforming) in-combat stealth most of all. Practically none of their "solutions" do anything about the out of combat stealth. They just obliterate in-combat stealth. Their prevalent cause their easy to play/fotm/most likely OP. I'm very surprised you think in combat stealth needs to be stronger... But agree to disagree... I can almost guarantee once ranked 5v5's start, stealth bursts are just gonna get worse. Reason why, there's no counter play. Asking for counter play isn't absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalPredator.9163 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Well, stealth glass cannons are a thing, annoying sometimes. But they're OK, yet i wish some penalties after making the strike. Just to react better, since the targeting in GW2 isnt so fast. I.have more trouble with shatter kittening mesmers more. Or infinity HP reapers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > Can't trigger combos while in stealth. > > > > Boom! Fixed, and it's still more fair than what happened to mirage. > > I mean, that solves permastealth for the most part, but thief still has ways of doing long periods of stealth, as do Shatter Mesmers. Its also a surefire way to get griefers. I was half joking, I doubt a-net would ever do anything like that, even if I could argue it would be healthy. But to continue that argument anyways, you are correct regarding grifing, I would hope something like this would be PvP and maybe WvW only, where the situations are a little more throttled than the mesmer who casts mass invis to troll a frac or raid. Here in pvp if you wanna grief just throw a fight or jump around in spawn, ya know? But to address your concerns regarding duration, I think it's fine. They have access but they need to spend a cooldown or a resource to accomplish it, not to say you can't with finishers; but the finisher is far more lenient and with ini recovery rate it's not hard to wait it out to do it again; while my suggestion forces them to de-stealth if they want to take advantage of it again; or else pop a cooldown which is a reasonable limitation. I don't want stealth to go away and be dead. Also I would add reveal on whiffs, like literally any other game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kondor.2904 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > We went a good 3 weeks without a "dElETe sTeAlTh" thread guys! This is a record high, last time we got this much of a downtime since the deadeye rework! > > > > > > > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > > Stealth is oppressive to the game and needs some sort of trade off. > > > > > > > > Here is your tradeoff: you have to invest in skills/traits to maintain it, losing damage potential for your burst. Also cannot contest/defend points. > > > > > > > > > Ideas: > > > > > - Movement and endurance-gain is 30% slower in stealth > > > > > - Power is reduced by 400-500 when in stealth and for 3 seconds after coming out of stealth (to stop stealth 1-shots) > > > > > > > > The game literally has traits going the opposite way. Also there are no more stealth 1-shots. Even on the lowest base health classes, equip an amulet with any vitality on it and no opener can kill you. > > > > > > > > > - Once you come out of stealth you cannot re-stealth for another 20 seconds > > > > > > > > I'm starting to think you're just trolling and I got baited hard. > > > > > > > > > - Players are removed from stealth when another player is within 600 range of them > > > > > > > > I'm just going to leave this here... > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab > > > > > > > > > - Skills do not recharge whilst stealthed > > > > > > > > You cannot be serious. Please tell me I got baited, noone who played this game for more then 20 minutes can type something like this with a straight face.... RIGHT? > > > > > > > > > I am sure others have ideas. Stealth needs to come with trade offs and there needs to be counter-play available to stealth-ed characters. > > > > > > > > Stealth counter: reveal. General cleave/channeled skills still hit targets in stealth. On the off chance you're not trolling, I'd advise to go try the stealth heavy classes before wanting to balance them. (Ranger, mesmer and thief) > > > > > > This > > > > > > Stealth has a learning curve, but it's not broke > > > > There is no counter play to stealth spikes, in particular at the start of the game. That is terrible game design. > > Countering a stealth spike especially at the start of the game is the easiest. You know where the enemy is coming from, you also know that their stealth is dropping in a few seconds so they have to engage fast. Once you can anticipate what the enemy in stealth does, stealth becomes actually useless. This is not terrible game design, this is an l2p issue. Can you explain, how one should counter backstab that can spike you for 10-14k post-patch repeatedly with no tell, no animation, no reveal on miss, no cooldown ? How can you counter something like binding shadow that has no animation whatsoever when popped from stealth or any other skills that have no tell ? Core thief's backstabs are less painful but can be coupled with insta port steal, and alike deadeye they give zero eff's about gaining malice. You objectively cannot counter that, you just hope your class has more cheeze mechanics than your stealth opponent and is more predictable than you are, so in the long run you get ahead of him. The most kitten things about stealth mechanics and stealth attacks in this game are 1) you are not punished if you kittened up while having a significant stealth advantage (read: missed an attack with no animation) and 2) it's a guess game, which is extremely obnoxious and no counter mechanic in the game should be based on how lucky you are. All those apply to EVERY class with access to stealth, the only difference is that only thief can literally SPAM stealth attacks as soon as he's back into stealth, which requires literally no investment. You can nerf dmg as much as you want, but it won't matter if the toxic mechanic is still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiraasiB.7165 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Or we could learn how to use aoe's, cleaves, the ever useful reveals most classes have, blocks, evades, stealth ourselves, run, use environment, stand on point and capture while doing all above. Orrr stop complaining about ffa problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > We went a good 3 weeks without a "dElETe sTeAlTh" thread guys! This is a record high, last time we got this much of a downtime since the deadeye rework! > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > > > Stealth is oppressive to the game and needs some sort of trade off. > > > > > > > > > > Here is your tradeoff: you have to invest in skills/traits to maintain it, losing damage potential for your burst. Also cannot contest/defend points. > > > > > > > > > > > Ideas: > > > > > > - Movement and endurance-gain is 30% slower in stealth > > > > > > - Power is reduced by 400-500 when in stealth and for 3 seconds after coming out of stealth (to stop stealth 1-shots) > > > > > > > > > > The game literally has traits going the opposite way. Also there are no more stealth 1-shots. Even on the lowest base health classes, equip an amulet with any vitality on it and no opener can kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > - Once you come out of stealth you cannot re-stealth for another 20 seconds > > > > > > > > > > I'm starting to think you're just trolling and I got baited hard. > > > > > > > > > > > - Players are removed from stealth when another player is within 600 range of them > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to leave this here... > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab > > > > > > > > > > > - Skills do not recharge whilst stealthed > > > > > > > > > > You cannot be serious. Please tell me I got baited, noone who played this game for more then 20 minutes can type something like this with a straight face.... RIGHT? > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure others have ideas. Stealth needs to come with trade offs and there needs to be counter-play available to stealth-ed characters. > > > > > > > > > > Stealth counter: reveal. General cleave/channeled skills still hit targets in stealth. On the off chance you're not trolling, I'd advise to go try the stealth heavy classes before wanting to balance them. (Ranger, mesmer and thief) > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > Stealth has a learning curve, but it's not broke > > > > > > There is no counter play to stealth spikes, in particular at the start of the game. That is terrible game design. > > > > Countering a stealth spike especially at the start of the game is the easiest. You know where the enemy is coming from, you also know that their stealth is dropping in a few seconds so they have to engage fast. Once you can anticipate what the enemy in stealth does, stealth becomes actually useless. This is not terrible game design, this is an l2p issue. > > Can you explain, how one should counter backstab that can spike you for 10-14k post-patch repeatedly with no tell, no animation, no reveal on miss, no cooldown ? How can you counter something like binding shadow that has no animation whatsoever when popped from stealth or any other skills that have no tell ? Core thief's backstabs are less painful but can be coupled with insta port steal, and alike deadeye they give zero eff's about gaining malice. > > You objectively cannot counter that, you just hope your class has more cheeze mechanics than your stealth opponent and is more predictable than you are, so in the long run you get ahead of him. The most kitten things about stealth mechanics and stealth attacks in this game are 1) you are not punished if you kittened up while having a significant stealth advantage (read: missed an attack with no animation) and 2) it's a guess game, which is extremely obnoxious and no counter mechanic in the game should be based on how lucky you are. All those apply to EVERY class with access to stealth, the only difference is that only thief can literally SPAM stealth attacks as soon as he's back into stealth, which requires literally no investment. > > You can nerf dmg as much as you want, but it won't matter if the toxic mechanic is still there. Missing an attack puts stealth attacks on a cooldown. You can’t spam a stealth attack. Second, you seem to be mistaken that stealth is somehow a free mechanic that lets the thief do whatever with no costs. To get that much stealth the thief is wasting cooldowns and initiative. You don’t even need reveal to deal with a thief in stealth. You just need to stay mobile and force the thief to waste his time setting up an attack only to miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Currently? Core Engineer. And Im saying that stealth is split. Out of combat, i.e. "burst from an enemy you didnt even know was there", its stupid and unfun. In-combat, its actually rather useless unless youre Mesmer (who has Clones that remove both of in-combat stealths critical weakness. > > > I mean, out of combat stealth is dumb, yeah. The fact that you could be bursted by an enemy you didnt even know was there was stupid. But in 2v2? You know theyre there, its pretty much just in-combat stealth. And in-combat stealth is already weak, since it can be easily abused by the enemy to hit damage on you while youre not fighting back. > > > Prevalent doesnt mean theyre good. DE has been prevalent for a while because people like it (for some reason), even though the build has never been more than a troll build. Shatter Mesmer is better, but not by much. > > > Unfortunately no. For some reason, rather than fixing out of combat stealth and making in-combat stealth stronger, people just want to nerf (the already underperforming) in-combat stealth most of all. Practically none of their "solutions" do anything about the out of combat stealth. They just obliterate in-combat stealth. > > Their prevalent cause their easy to play/fotm/most likely OP. > I'm very surprised you think in combat stealth needs to be stronger... > But agree to disagree... I can almost guarantee once ranked 5v5's start, stealth bursts are just gonna get worse. Reason why, there's no counter play. > Asking for counter play isn't absurd. Shatter Mesmer and Rifle DE are both not easy to play, not fotm, and certainly not op. Theyre prevalent because people enjoy oneshotting, despite how bad of an experience that really is for both players. You shouldnt be, in-combat stealth is *terrible*. Its a mechanic so bad it needed to also make you immune to crits *and* reduce damage taken by 25%, and people still avoided stealth like the plague. And now that it doesnt even have those 2? Yeah its basically unusable as anything other than a way to immediately hit a stealth attack and drop stealth. Its good when the enemy doesnt know youre even there, let alone where you are. But in in-combat stealth, they know youre there, *and* where you are. Possible, though in 5v5 people at least know youre gonna be going for a stealth burst, so there is a bit you can do there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > We went a good 3 weeks without a "dElETe sTeAlTh" thread guys! This is a record high, last time we got this much of a downtime since the deadeye rework! > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > > > Stealth is oppressive to the game and needs some sort of trade off. > > > > > > > > > > Here is your tradeoff: you have to invest in skills/traits to maintain it, losing damage potential for your burst. Also cannot contest/defend points. > > > > > > > > > > > Ideas: > > > > > > - Movement and endurance-gain is 30% slower in stealth > > > > > > - Power is reduced by 400-500 when in stealth and for 3 seconds after coming out of stealth (to stop stealth 1-shots) > > > > > > > > > > The game literally has traits going the opposite way. Also there are no more stealth 1-shots. Even on the lowest base health classes, equip an amulet with any vitality on it and no opener can kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > - Once you come out of stealth you cannot re-stealth for another 20 seconds > > > > > > > > > > I'm starting to think you're just trolling and I got baited hard. > > > > > > > > > > > - Players are removed from stealth when another player is within 600 range of them > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to leave this here... > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab > > > > > > > > > > > - Skills do not recharge whilst stealthed > > > > > > > > > > You cannot be serious. Please tell me I got baited, noone who played this game for more then 20 minutes can type something like this with a straight face.... RIGHT? > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure others have ideas. Stealth needs to come with trade offs and there needs to be counter-play available to stealth-ed characters. > > > > > > > > > > Stealth counter: reveal. General cleave/channeled skills still hit targets in stealth. On the off chance you're not trolling, I'd advise to go try the stealth heavy classes before wanting to balance them. (Ranger, mesmer and thief) > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > Stealth has a learning curve, but it's not broke > > > > > > There is no counter play to stealth spikes, in particular at the start of the game. That is terrible game design. > > > > Countering a stealth spike especially at the start of the game is the easiest. You know where the enemy is coming from, you also know that their stealth is dropping in a few seconds so they have to engage fast. Once you can anticipate what the enemy in stealth does, stealth becomes actually useless. This is not terrible game design, this is an l2p issue. > > Can you explain, how one should counter backstab that can spike you for 10-14k post-patch repeatedly with no tell, no animation, no reveal on miss, no cooldown ? How can you counter something like binding shadow that has no animation whatsoever when popped from stealth or any other skills that have no tell ? Core thief's backstabs are less painful but can be coupled with insta port steal, and alike deadeye they give zero eff's about gaining malice. > First of all, Backstab could not even spike for 10k *before* the patch, its certainly not able to spike that hard now that it was nerfed by 25%. It should hit you for about 8k at most, 6k more likely. Also, it does effectively have a cooldown, since you get revealed. Binding Shadow *does* have an animation actually. Its just a really subtle one thats basically impossible to see. Should probably get amped up in terms of visual clarity. > You objectively cannot counter that, you just hope your class has more cheeze mechanics than your stealth opponent and is more predictable than you are, so in the long run you get ahead of him. The most kitten things about stealth mechanics and stealth attacks in this game are 1) you are not punished if you kittened up while having a significant stealth advantage (read: missed an attack with no animation) and 2) it's a guess game, which is extremely obnoxious and no counter mechanic in the game should be based on how lucky you are. All those apply to EVERY class with access to stealth, the only difference is that only thief can literally SPAM stealth attacks as soon as he's back into stealth, which requires literally no investment. > You cant counter the initial stealth burst, yeah, but the initial stealth burst just sucks right now. It wont kill you. It will do a decent amount of damage, at least in a +1-scenario, but truth is, so would just someone porting on you and smacking you, soo. After that? Stealth is terrible, trivially easy to counter once you know who is there, and where he was when he stealthed up. Also, you do get punished if you screw up, since stealth attacks have a cooldown now on miss. Usually, if you miss you just drop out of stealth before you can try again. And if the thief is going back into stealth, which in fact requires a *lot* of investment, just use channeled skills, Cleave or chuck some AoEs in his direction and watch him drop as a fly thanks to stealth being terrible at actually protecting you. > You can nerf dmg as much as you want, but it won't matter if the toxic mechanic is still there. No, it actually matters a lot. If the burst you take out of stealth is not enough to be a problem, then stealth itself ceases to be a problem. Its a problem when you die out of nowhere with no chance to react. But if its just a 6k burst? Again, no different from, say, a Rev porting on you and smacking you upside the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > @"Avatar.3568" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > We went a good 3 weeks without a "dElETe sTeAlTh" thread guys! This is a record high, last time we got this much of a downtime since the deadeye rework! > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rickster.8752" said: > > > > > > Stealth is oppressive to the game and needs some sort of trade off. > > > > > > > > > > Here is your tradeoff: you have to invest in skills/traits to maintain it, losing damage potential for your burst. Also cannot contest/defend points. > > > > > > > > > > > Ideas: > > > > > > - Movement and endurance-gain is 30% slower in stealth > > > > > > - Power is reduced by 400-500 when in stealth and for 3 seconds after coming out of stealth (to stop stealth 1-shots) > > > > > > > > > > The game literally has traits going the opposite way. Also there are no more stealth 1-shots. Even on the lowest base health classes, equip an amulet with any vitality on it and no opener can kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > - Once you come out of stealth you cannot re-stealth for another 20 seconds > > > > > > > > > > I'm starting to think you're just trolling and I got baited hard. > > > > > > > > > > > - Players are removed from stealth when another player is within 600 range of them > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to leave this here... > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab > > > > > > > > > > > - Skills do not recharge whilst stealthed > > > > > > > > > > You cannot be serious. Please tell me I got baited, noone who played this game for more then 20 minutes can type something like this with a straight face.... RIGHT? > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure others have ideas. Stealth needs to come with trade offs and there needs to be counter-play available to stealth-ed characters. > > > > > > > > > > Stealth counter: reveal. General cleave/channeled skills still hit targets in stealth. On the off chance you're not trolling, I'd advise to go try the stealth heavy classes before wanting to balance them. (Ranger, mesmer and thief) > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > Stealth has a learning curve, but it's not broke > > > > > > There is no counter play to stealth spikes, in particular at the start of the game. That is terrible game design. > > > > Countering a stealth spike especially at the start of the game is the easiest. You know where the enemy is coming from, you also know that their stealth is dropping in a few seconds so they have to engage fast. Once you can anticipate what the enemy in stealth does, stealth becomes actually useless. This is not terrible game design, this is an l2p issue. > > Can you explain, how one should counter backstab that can spike you for 10-14k post-patch repeatedly with no tell, no animation, no reveal on miss, no cooldown ? Sure. So here is how a thief can do that: he can't. Missing a stealth attack puts it on a 3 second cooldown. 14K is an absurd number, if you get hit by that much, the enemy is a DE using a full malice backstab with some cooldown popped. You cannot get max malice repeateadly, nor can you pop 35 second cooldowns repeatedly. > How can you counter something like binding shadow that has no animation whatsoever when popped from stealth or any other skills that have no tell ? Core thief's backstabs are less painful but can be coupled with insta port steal, and alike deadeye they give zero eff's about gaining malice. Binding shadow has an animation, stealth covers it. I suggested several times in the forums to make the animation visible. As your countering, if your ping is bad(200ms+), or reacting times are slower, you can always equip a sturdier amulet/build. > You objectively cannot counter that, you just hope your class has more cheeze mechanics than your stealth opponent and is more predictable than you are, so in the long run you get ahead of him. What does this even mean? If you can reliably win those fights, that means you countered the enemy DE. By definition, that's what countering means. >The most kitten things about stealth mechanics and stealth attacks in this game are 1) you are not punished if you kittened up while having a significant stealth advantage Reiterating: 3 second cooldown if you miss. Also what the hell is "while having significant stealth advantage"? > and 2) it's a guess game, which is extremely obnoxious and no counter mechanic in the game should be based on how lucky you are. Yet for some reason some players are constantly and reliably "lucky". While others just flail around. I guess practise is pointless, just buy a shitton of lucky charms and you'll get better results against thieves. >All those apply to EVERY class with access to stealth, the only difference is that only thief can literally SPAM stealth attacks as soon as he's back into stealth, which requires literally no investment. You seem to have absolutely no idea how stealth works in this game. Go try playing thief for a while(obviously not S/D or staff DD). Saying stuff like stealth requires no investment just discredits everything you say. > You can nerf dmg as much as you want, but it won't matter if the toxic mechanic is still there. "Anything I don't like is toxic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonoly.4352 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 For sPvP, not being able to contest points is a pretty significant trade-off already. I don't think we need much more. A bit of map awareness - and yes, actually looking at your mini map - works wonders for dealing with stealthy builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kondor.2904 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But here are some last points anyway: First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". Very sweet (no, not really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > But here are some last points anyway: > > First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). > > Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. > > Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. > > And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. > > Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". > Very sweet (no, not really). Replying to someone without tagging them, nice. Doubling down on factually false statements(stealth needs no investment) and moving the goalposts from your original statements(like spammable 14K backstabs) and still ending up being wrong about it... declaring that a 3 second cooldown is not a cooldown just puts you at odds with the most basic rules of logic. According to you thief can reapply stealth endlessly, it's costs basicly do not matter, dish out 14K oneshots and DE-s have maxed out malice permamently. Man, show me the build that can do all this, I wan't to play godmode thief aswell. I was mostly playing guardian and elementalist lately, berserker amulet on both, fat 11K health glass cannons. I don't have trouble dealing with thieves 1v1 or 2v2. Those that don't die, run away. If I can do it, it's an l2p problem for anyone else who can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Possible rework: Deadeye: Re-stealthing removes mark. Mark recharges faster while in stealth. Deadeye is quite fair during the opener. Mark gives you a visual and auditory heads up before the thief is about to burst you. However, you do not get this warning after the deadeye restealths and tries again. It makes sense that when a DE makes a contract with you, it should take more planning. If they're caught and forced to retreat, they're giving up on that contract. Mesmer: Mirror blade has a more obvious animation. Mind stab damage and radius increased, however, the ground beneath you glows purple for a split second before the blade appears. My goal here is to give the player a chance to react to the mesmer's stealth bomb without making stealth itself clunky to use. Radius increase on mind stab makes it more difficult to walk out of the ability, compensating for the increased delay. Ranger: Stealth bombs are not a huge issue for this class. Stealth is also very limited on ranger. If i had to hit something, I'd increase CD on smokescale f2 by 5-10 seconds. Core thief: Backstab is now a 350 radius shadowstep with a brief windup. It plays a brief audio during the windup. Players will be able to react to the sound and dodge or turn around. However, the thief retains the mind-game of which direction they are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > But here are some last points anyway: > > First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). > It can't. 10k is what it hits against squishies. 14k, it simply does not hit ever. Unless theyre undergeared and their defense rating is low as a result. Getting full malice *is* a big deal and you trying to handwave it shows that you dont know thief at all. Backstab thief has no way of building up malice safely, or even while retaining the ability to efficiently stealth up. As a result, they just dont. You simply hit them with low malice MBS. > Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. > Once again, you simply *dont know thief*. First, thief has no "hard hitting skills" with 2 initiative cost. Actually, it doesnt have *any* skills with 2 initiative cost. The lowest initiative cost (other than kneel that has 1) is 3. Second, no, the hard-hitting ones, like Shadowshot, tend to cost 4-6. Only Heartseeker costs 3, and it only "hits hard" once youre below 50%. Its also pretty slow, but I digress. Their autoattacks also simply dont hit hard. And you really should at least play a couple games with a class you want to talk about, lest you say hilariously and *completely* wrong things like this: " It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. ". No, they dont. They can stealth and get Shortbow 5. Thats it, thats all their initiative allows them to do. Even *1* more skill, and they have to wait 5 seconds to be able to shortbow 5. > Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. > If you want it to be put better, think of stealth like an ammo system. 3 seconds between uses, 2 charges, and each charge takes 15 seconds to cooldown. Not quite as impressive anymore, is it? > And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. > > Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". > Very sweet (no, not really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > Possible rework: > > Deadeye: Re-stealthing removes mark. Mark recharges faster while in stealth. > Homework: try out deadeye. In Pve or PvP, just learn the basics about its mechanics. Here is the problem with this suggestion: DE rework was made to force the thief into attacking the target at least a few times before landing a hard hitting burst. For which you have to stealth, and land a malicious stealth attack. Do you see the problem now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > Possible rework: > > > > Deadeye: Re-stealthing removes mark. Mark recharges faster while in stealth. > > > > Homework: try out deadeye. In Pve or PvP, just learn the basics about its mechanics. Here is the problem with this suggestion: DE rework was made to force the thief into attacking the target at least a few times before landing a hard hitting burst. For which you have to stealth, and land a malicious stealth attack. Do you see the problem now? Edit: Alternate Suggestion: Malice falls off if you hit another target rather than lose mark. (Incitivises the thief to remain on it's target rather than repeatedly swap due to the following change). Dealing damage while kneeling reduces the cooldown of mark. Mark is still lost on restealth. In other words. More steal skills. Better target swap capability, but a bigger telegraph on the Death's Judgement. Probably a net buff, but makes the class "feel" more fair which is what I'm going for. (Personally have no issue with DE, but it's commonly complained about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kondor.2904 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > But here are some last points anyway: > > > > First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). > > > > It can't. 10k is what it hits against squishies. 14k, it simply does not hit ever. Unless theyre undergeared and their defense rating is low as a result. Getting full malice *is* a big deal and you trying to handwave it shows that you dont know thief at all. Backstab thief has no way of building up malice safely, or even while retaining the ability to efficiently stealth up. As a result, they just dont. You simply hit them with low malice MBS. > > > Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. > > > > Once again, you simply *dont know thief*. First, thief has no "hard hitting skills" with 2 initiative cost. Actually, it doesnt have *any* skills with 2 initiative cost. The lowest initiative cost (other than kneel that has 1) is 3. Second, no, the hard-hitting ones, like Shadowshot, tend to cost 4-6. Only Heartseeker costs 3, and it only "hits hard" once youre below 50%. Its also pretty slow, but I digress. Their autoattacks also simply dont hit hard. And you really should at least play a couple games with a class you want to talk about, lest you say hilariously and *completely* wrong things like this: " It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. ". No, they dont. They can stealth and get Shortbow 5. Thats it, thats all their initiative allows them to do. Even *1* more skill, and they have to wait 5 seconds to be able to shortbow 5. > > > Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. > > > > If you want it to be put better, think of stealth like an ammo system. 3 seconds between uses, 2 charges, and each charge takes 15 seconds to cooldown. Not quite as impressive anymore, is it? > > > And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. > > > > Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". > > Very sweet (no, not really). > > Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to the 2/3 weapon skills, not ini cost. But Rifle 2 skills does indeed cost 3 ini, anyway. You need exactly 2 hits of skirmisher to max out malice without m7, and 3 hits if you take m7. Also, I just logged in and did this with simple binding shadow combo on a light golem with traited m7 not even wearing berserker amulet. You may also say "yo but that's light golem reeee", that's why I stated a 10-14k range, which is still rather nasty and unpleasant to face. I think I also hit like 12k on a medium one w/o m7, I'm not sure. But apparently it's photoshopped, since 14k bs is impossible :)  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > But here are some last points anyway: > > > > > > First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). > > > > > > > It can't. 10k is what it hits against squishies. 14k, it simply does not hit ever. Unless theyre undergeared and their defense rating is low as a result. Getting full malice *is* a big deal and you trying to handwave it shows that you dont know thief at all. Backstab thief has no way of building up malice safely, or even while retaining the ability to efficiently stealth up. As a result, they just dont. You simply hit them with low malice MBS. > > > > > Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. > > > > > > > Once again, you simply *dont know thief*. First, thief has no "hard hitting skills" with 2 initiative cost. Actually, it doesnt have *any* skills with 2 initiative cost. The lowest initiative cost (other than kneel that has 1) is 3. Second, no, the hard-hitting ones, like Shadowshot, tend to cost 4-6. Only Heartseeker costs 3, and it only "hits hard" once youre below 50%. Its also pretty slow, but I digress. Their autoattacks also simply dont hit hard. And you really should at least play a couple games with a class you want to talk about, lest you say hilariously and *completely* wrong things like this: " It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. ". No, they dont. They can stealth and get Shortbow 5. Thats it, thats all their initiative allows them to do. Even *1* more skill, and they have to wait 5 seconds to be able to shortbow 5. > > > > > Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. > > > > > > > If you want it to be put better, think of stealth like an ammo system. 3 seconds between uses, 2 charges, and each charge takes 15 seconds to cooldown. Not quite as impressive anymore, is it? > > > > > And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. > > > > > > Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". > > > Very sweet (no, not really). > > > > > > Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to the 2/3 weapon skills, not ini cost. But Rifle 2 skills does indeed cost 3 ini, anyway. You need exactly 2 hits of skirmisher to max out malice without m7, and 3 hits if you take m7. > You still called 4-6 initiative costs "low-cost". Thats still hilariously inaccurate. > Also, I just logged in and did this with simple binding shadow combo on a light golem with traited m7 not even wearing berserker amulet. You may also say "yo but that's light golem reeee", that's why I stated a 10-14k range, which is still rather nasty and unpleasant to face. I think I also hit like 12k on a medium one w/o m7, I'm not sure. But apparently it's photoshopped, since 14k bs is impossible :) >  > I mean if were talking *max malice* backstab, then yes. You will get 15k. Of course, in a real game youll never be able to do this, hence why "malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch", your original statement, is still hilariously wrong. What you can hit in a real game, is a 1 malice backstab out of stealth. But more? Not a chance. Youd need to build up malice first, which both means exposing yourself to the opponents retribution (which you cant withstand at all), and also trying to somehow enter stealth while depleting your initiative for the former. Doesnt help that without stealth, you also need to get onto the enemy somehow. And unfortunately, since they already know youre there, they can just stop you. So no, you wont hit 15k reliably. You will hit 10k on squishies with a 1 malice backstab, and thats the best you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kondor.2904 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > But here are some last points anyway: > > > > > > > > First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). > > > > > > > > > > It can't. 10k is what it hits against squishies. 14k, it simply does not hit ever. Unless theyre undergeared and their defense rating is low as a result. Getting full malice *is* a big deal and you trying to handwave it shows that you dont know thief at all. Backstab thief has no way of building up malice safely, or even while retaining the ability to efficiently stealth up. As a result, they just dont. You simply hit them with low malice MBS. > > > > > > > Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. > > > > > > > > > > Once again, you simply *dont know thief*. First, thief has no "hard hitting skills" with 2 initiative cost. Actually, it doesnt have *any* skills with 2 initiative cost. The lowest initiative cost (other than kneel that has 1) is 3. Second, no, the hard-hitting ones, like Shadowshot, tend to cost 4-6. Only Heartseeker costs 3, and it only "hits hard" once youre below 50%. Its also pretty slow, but I digress. Their autoattacks also simply dont hit hard. And you really should at least play a couple games with a class you want to talk about, lest you say hilariously and *completely* wrong things like this: " It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. ". No, they dont. They can stealth and get Shortbow 5. Thats it, thats all their initiative allows them to do. Even *1* more skill, and they have to wait 5 seconds to be able to shortbow 5. > > > > > > > Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. > > > > > > > > > > If you want it to be put better, think of stealth like an ammo system. 3 seconds between uses, 2 charges, and each charge takes 15 seconds to cooldown. Not quite as impressive anymore, is it? > > > > > > > And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. > > > > > > > > Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". > > > > Very sweet (no, not really). > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to the 2/3 weapon skills, not ini cost. But Rifle 2 skills does indeed cost 3 ini, anyway. You need exactly 2 hits of skirmisher to max out malice without m7, and 3 hits if you take m7. > > > > You still called 4-6 initiative costs "low-cost". Thats still hilariously inaccurate. > > > Also, I just logged in and did this with simple binding shadow combo on a light golem with traited m7 not even wearing berserker amulet. You may also say "yo but that's light golem reeee", that's why I stated a 10-14k range, which is still rather nasty and unpleasant to face. I think I also hit like 12k on a medium one w/o m7, I'm not sure. But apparently it's photoshopped, since 14k bs is impossible :) > >  > > > > I mean if were talking *max malice* backstab, then yes. You will get 15k. Of course, in a real game youll never be able to do this, hence why "malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch", your original statement, is still hilariously wrong. What you can hit in a real game, is a 1 malice backstab out of stealth. But more? Not a chance. Youd need to build up malice first, which both means exposing yourself to the opponents retribution (which you cant withstand at all), and also trying to somehow enter stealth while depleting your initiative for the former. Doesnt help that without stealth, you also need to get onto the enemy somehow. And unfortunately, since they already know youre there, they can just stop you. So no, you wont hit 15k reliably. You will hit 10k on squishies with a 1 malice backstab, and thats the best you can do. > > This whole argument is rather pointless. You're going to pretend it's not possible under real circumstances, and I'm going to say it is possible, because I've seen people do it in plat3 EU bracket. The truth is the damage is there, the skill has no tell and is quite spammable, thus it is toxic. In my opinion, it should be looked at (I mean either backstab itself or stealth, maybe both). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > I don't really wanna start another forum holy war vs thief mains, I was just expressing my opinion and experience, maybe I shouldn't have quoted anyone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > But here are some last points anyway: > > > > > > > > > > First of all, malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch, if you can't do that, you might wanna check your build or something. Also getting full malice is not that big of a deal, when you spitting crits all over the place. Yes, regular backstab hits for lower numbers but it still remains a "no tell 1 button spike from stealth". Also I wasn't saying its damage was not boosted by something else, but I don't care if DJ is dmg boosted, for example, since it has animation and puts reveal on a thief. (Apart from few bugged occasions when you get no sound or tells either, but not talking about bugs here). > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can't. 10k is what it hits against squishies. 14k, it simply does not hit ever. Unless theyre undergeared and their defense rating is low as a result. Getting full malice *is* a big deal and you trying to handwave it shows that you dont know thief at all. Backstab thief has no way of building up malice safely, or even while retaining the ability to efficiently stealth up. As a result, they just dont. You simply hit them with low malice MBS. > > > > > > > > > Secondly, I cannot take anyone saying stealth needs any kind of investment seriously either, when most of the hard hitting skills come from aa or low cost ini skills like 2/3. Saying stealth rEqUirEs ini is like saying drd couldn't spam pistol whip because of its ini costs or pre-patch mirage couldn't spam ambushes because of limited endurance. It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. So basically you mostly spend your initiative to setup something that doesn't really require it. And when you're actually spending it to deal dmg, it usually comes with an evade frame or blind, nice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, you simply *dont know thief*. First, thief has no "hard hitting skills" with 2 initiative cost. Actually, it doesnt have *any* skills with 2 initiative cost. The lowest initiative cost (other than kneel that has 1) is 3. Second, no, the hard-hitting ones, like Shadowshot, tend to cost 4-6. Only Heartseeker costs 3, and it only "hits hard" once youre below 50%. Its also pretty slow, but I digress. Their autoattacks also simply dont hit hard. And you really should at least play a couple games with a class you want to talk about, lest you say hilariously and *completely* wrong things like this: " It's wrong, thieves have enough initiative to cycle through their damage / stealth rotation and have enough left to pop shortbow 5 or rifle 4 when things get nasty. ". No, they dont. They can stealth and get Shortbow 5. Thats it, thats all their initiative allows them to do. Even *1* more skill, and they have to wait 5 seconds to be able to shortbow 5. > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, 3 seconds cooldown is not a cooldown, 15-20 seconds is a cooldown, especially when you have means to reapply stealth as much as you want, or even remove reveal on deadeye. It's like saying the old mantra stunlock power mes had a 5 sec cOoLdOwN on stuns, very balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want it to be put better, think of stealth like an ammo system. 3 seconds between uses, 2 charges, and each charge takes 15 seconds to cooldown. Not quite as impressive anymore, is it? > > > > > > > > > And finally, the "stay mobile argument" is not an argument, maybe it is vs an npc, but not vs a player, who can do the same. > > > > > > > > > > Overall, you didn't really say how exactly you can avoid the said skill, all I read was "run around and hope thief has finger handicap and can't press w" and "well, yes, you can't really dodge it but thief has to work for it and it's not really 10k". > > > > > Very sweet (no, not really). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to the 2/3 weapon skills, not ini cost. But Rifle 2 skills does indeed cost 3 ini, anyway. You need exactly 2 hits of skirmisher to max out malice without m7, and 3 hits if you take m7. > > > > > > > You still called 4-6 initiative costs "low-cost". Thats still hilariously inaccurate. > > > > > Also, I just logged in and did this with simple binding shadow combo on a light golem with traited m7 not even wearing berserker amulet. You may also say "yo but that's light golem reeee", that's why I stated a 10-14k range, which is still rather nasty and unpleasant to face. I think I also hit like 12k on a medium one w/o m7, I'm not sure. But apparently it's photoshopped, since 14k bs is impossible :) > > >  > > > > > > > I mean if were talking *max malice* backstab, then yes. You will get 15k. Of course, in a real game youll never be able to do this, hence why "malicious backstab can hit for 10-14k reliably after the patch", your original statement, is still hilariously wrong. What you can hit in a real game, is a 1 malice backstab out of stealth. But more? Not a chance. Youd need to build up malice first, which both means exposing yourself to the opponents retribution (which you cant withstand at all), and also trying to somehow enter stealth while depleting your initiative for the former. Doesnt help that without stealth, you also need to get onto the enemy somehow. And unfortunately, since they already know youre there, they can just stop you. So no, you wont hit 15k reliably. You will hit 10k on squishies with a 1 malice backstab, and thats the best you can do. > > > > > > This whole argument is rather pointless. You're going to pretend it's not possible under real circumstances, and I'm going to say it is possible, because I've seen people do it in plat3 EU bracket. The truth is the damage is there, the skill has no tell and is quite spammable, thus it is toxic. In my opinion, it should be looked at (I mean either backstab itself or stealth, maybe both). It is pointless. Im going to state the fact that its not possible, youre going to try and claim otherwise regardless. But of course, its not possible. Pretty straightforward why. Its a glass build, if theyre building up malice, you just chuck damage their way and they evaporate. And even if they somehow survive (maybe you didnt notice them at all), then theyre going to have to try and get behind you and backstab you while not having a steal that teleports them while you know where they stealthed up. That too is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz.9476 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 My personal pet peeve is that Deadeye gets very-low-cooldown [shadow Meld](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld) that also happens to eliminate the designated hard-counter to stealthing in terms of Revealed. What's the point of using anything that puts Marked on a class that can freely ignore it with over half a cooldown advantage over any ways of applying it? At least core Thief can be prevented from doing hit and runs with it, even if they are incredibly annoying (for me, next to untouchable) when used well in that regard. Especially if you're running a melee class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Lukasz.9476" said: > My personal pet peeve is that Deadeye gets very-low-cooldown [shadow Meld](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld) that also happens to eliminate the designated hard-counter to stealthing in terms of Revealed. > > What's the point of using anything that puts Marked on a class that can freely ignore it with over half a cooldown advantage over any ways of applying it? > > At least core Thief can be prevented from doing hit and runs with it, even if they are incredibly annoying (for me, next to untouchable) when used well in that regard. Especially if you're running a melee class. not every thing has to play by the rules. things would be boring that way. this is how unblockable works. this is how mud slide works -> cant be dodged. and many many things. And since thief has dagger storm ( super strong heroic ) they have to give up something to get the meld. if its balanced or not this makes deadeye MUCH more interesting then it would be without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz.9476 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > not every thing has to play by the rules. things would be boring that way. > this is how unblockable works. > this is how mud slide works -> cant be dodged. > and many many things. > And since thief has dagger storm ( super strong heroic ) they have to give up something to get the meld. > if its balanced or not this makes deadeye MUCH more interesting then it would be without it. Unblockable still can be countered by any source of healing, gearing up, dodge, evade, or whatnot. Stealth pop? You'd better catch that thief with a CC before it happens, and have enough of those to counter stun breaks. Doesn't exactly feel like an appropriate comparison, and neither does the example of mud slide (damage isn't that high, and you can counter the CC with stability), but it might be just now frustrating I find playing against a competent stealth user. Especially one that has access to an ability that overrides supposed designated counter to it, Dagger Storm being "better" or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 > @"Lukasz.9476" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > not every thing has to play by the rules. things would be boring that way. > > this is how unblockable works. > > this is how mud slide works -> cant be dodged. > > and many many things. > > And since thief has dagger storm ( super strong heroic ) they have to give up something to get the meld. > > if its balanced or not this makes deadeye MUCH more interesting then it would be without it. > > Unblockable still can be countered by any source of healing, gearing up, dodge, evade, or whatnot. > > Stealth pop? You'd better catch that thief with a CC before it happens, and have enough of those to counter stun breaks. > > Doesn't exactly feel like an appropriate comparison, and neither does the example of mud slide (damage isn't that high, and you can counter the CC with stability), but it might be just now frustrating I find playing against a competent stealth user. > > Especially one that has access to an ability that overrides supposed designated counter to it, Dagger Storm being "better" or not. stealth can be countered by capping point, doding,blocking,stealthing,protection, aoe attacks, CC, reveals,LOS etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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