Top Rates Queue Dodge Each Other & Farm Low Rates - It's Not OK - Here Is The FIx

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

_This poll is anonymous. It won't reveal who had voted Agree, Mostly Agree, or Disagree. If you feel strongly for or against the proposed suggestion in this thread, please cast a vote for Arenanet's feedback purposes. We have a real problem on our hands now with shrinking player base and I think that now more than ever, giving real community feedback is vital._

 

First, let me outline what I feel was **the biggest problem** that we had with this 2v2 test season, and no it is not class balance.

 

You'd think that with a 2v2 season, if as many people were queueing nightly as there were in conquest, we'd have more games running because the 10 people in a game for conquest would be divided into two separate games. You'd think that this would actually have better match making this way, and it should theoretically. But during this 2v2 season, the opposite began to happen. Far less players were queueing. The season started out very strong and then participation tapered off into a point where regardless of the time of day you queue, you were against the same 2 to 4 people for an hour or two straight. People just stopped queueing 2v2. But why? Well, there are some factors to consider here concerning class balance & certain comps being very dominant, 2v2 maps being very rewarding for some classes/builds and punishing for others, some people just favoring 5v5 over 2v2, and of course less rewards. I'm sure that the aforementioned factors all play a part in lowered participation, but is this really the bulk of what drove players away from 2v2 participation? In short, I really don't think so, not at all.

 

I believe biggest reason why player participation dropped through the floor is because of how the algorithm works for match making, and how players abuse it to great extent. Let me make this real simple to understand. Let's use a 1700 rated duo as example. Here is what players are doing:

 

1. Log in with your duo partner. Both partners are rated 1700.

2. Scout your contacts and who is standing in the mists. Are any other threatening duos online right now? We need to definitely queue dodge anyone rated higher than us, and should probably queue dodge even players down around 1600 who run comps that might counter us.

3. The population is already low and all of us veteran players who play 1500+ all know each other, love or hate. We all have each other added to our contacts lists. We've all been around each other for almost a decade now and the game is like a high school at this point. Even if we don't hang with & talk to some players in Discord, we all know each other. This makes it very easy to scout and queue dodge.

4. When we see the players who might threaten us in games go into pve instances or sign offline and we don't see their alts on, we know it is safe to queue. And when we queue, even if we have to wait 10+ minutes, it will be worth it because it will be an easy match.

5. When the 1700 duo finally enters a game, they are against a 1400 duo. They proceed to do this all night and into the early morning, avoiding the players in the divisions that they should be queueing games against, and only going against much lower rated players who shouldn't be facing very high rated players at all.

 

^ All of the above is abuse of the match making algorithm to such a degree that not only does it break the algorithm, but it turns it against itself, and rather than making balanced matches, it is allowing high rated players to completely avoid playing in the divisions that they should be playing in. It allows them to remain playing in Gold 2 or lower as very high rated players who should be playing in and against other top tier divisional players. <- Everything is wrong with this. I can't think of a single Pro to the full list of Cons, of what could even be debatably OK about this and what it is doing to the game, and the community's encouragement to stay & play. Players really don't mind losing games. But players really do not like getting absolutely pumped on every other or every game they queue, by not just high rated players or top players, but the actual best players in the game, many of which who have been or are professional level streaming gamers. At this point it's just pissing the player base off and people are walking away, lots of them.

 

Now speaking of 2v2 seasons "Not 5v5", there is an easy way to solve this problem in its entirety -> Shorten the margin of rating difference between players that the algorithm allows to be in the same match against each other. Yes Arenanet, it's time for it to happen. Here is the chain of effect of what I believe would happen:

 

1. **Let's say that the algorithm is only allowed to place an average party rating against an average party rating that is 150 rating apart from each other.** So it would be possible for a 1400 duo to go against a 1550 duo, or a 1400 duo to go against a 1250 duo. But it would never be possible for a 1400 team to go against a 1600+ duo or a 1200 or less duo, and certainly never against a 1800+ duo. If there are no players queueing who are in range for a match to begin, then we wait! Yes, we wait for a match that actually make sense.

2. Yes, there will at first be increased wait times. But when players start having fun again, playing against other players within a reasonable threshold of their own skill rating, more players are going to stay and keep playing, and when that happens the queue time will go down.

3. And finally, players who exploit the algorithm through queue dodging as it works now, will no longer be able to do so. If a duo were 1800, they would only be able to catch as low as a 1650 duo in a game, which is threatening enough. If they were to try queue dodging as they do now, it wouldn't work. All of the high rated players would find themselves sitting around trying to avoid each other but realizing that they won't be playing at all, unless they start doing what they should have been doing all along, and that's queuing against each other, against other players that are actually in the same division that they are in, instead of avoiding each other and preying on low rated players.

 

It is a very easy fix. **Make it so that in 2v2 seasons, the algorithm will only ever place an average duo rating vs. and average duo rating that is within 150 rating of each other.** People will have more fun and stay to play when they aren't being farmed by top players. And top players will be forced to play in the divisions that they should be playing in, if they want to play at all.

 

Speaking for myself, I have absolutely no problem seeing even a 10 minute average queue time if it ensures that I am within 150 rating of opponents. I would also like to point out that even 10 minutes goes by fast when I'm screwing around in the ffa arena, 1v1ing in a custom arena, or doing a map clear as I wait for a queue. It makes me realize that for me, queue times are really not that big of a deal as long as I have something to occupy my time while I wait. Example: If a Roller Beetle or Griffin or Skyscale race track was added into the mists somewhere. It could have gold chest daily rewards and top score public records or maybe special rewards. I would gladly troll around that while waiting for a quality ranked match.

 

~ _To the players who participate in heavy queue dodge play, I'm sure you have no intention of creating macro level problems. But in all seriousness, this stuff is cannibalistically destroying our game mode from the inside out. I don't know about you, but I would like to continue playing Guild Wars 2 pvp with a growing or at least stable player base, rather than a shrinking one. Regardless of if we feel this is the player's or the algorithm's fault, something needs to change elementally within what the algorithm allows to happen._

[Stand The Wall.6987]

most people would not mind at all waiting an extra minute or two. off hours players will suffer tho so there has to be some sort of algorithmic consideration for these peeps. yes that would include high rating ppls that queue off hours but honestly who cares, their rating gain shouldn't be considered over honest players.

[Luthan.5236]

Yeah. The pouplation drop is easy to notice. Just look at the the top 250 in the leaderboard. It even goes down until gold 3 I think (the few lowest ones). I think with ranked conquest the 250 spots had been fully populated with platin. Also queue 2 vs. 2 is longer than unranked queue.

 

Main reason I guess is that it gets dull/boring fast. We have the few people in the forums that claim they love 2 vs. 2 more than conquest. But let's be honest: The majority of players isn't active in the forums. 2 vs. 2 is just fighting and nothing else. The more interesing stuff happens in conquest (unless you vote for boring maps like Coliseum where the side mechanics is boring and does not add much more intesting strategical stuff).

 

Also doesn't help to remove the best map (Auric Span) ... only 2 maps and the Arena one is boring and allows for too much kite running around in the mid. For me (and I guess for a lot of others) it's basically just doing your matches until you get the final league chest ... then doing conquest for fun and every now and then checking 2 vs. 2 for a quicker match (or maybe achievements that need ranked where unranked does not count ... for the daily ranked win the unranked counts at the moment).

 

For matchmaking interestingly : I noted in conquest unranked that the match maker tries to match people with premade teams against the same amount of premade players - if possible. (Had 4 queued vs 4 other queued with the 5th slot filled with me on my team and another solo queuer on the other team.)

 

Edit: Also I don't believe in this queue dodging stuff. Longer waiting time would main worse match ups (bigger difference in rating) with only less rank gain for the winning team. Just make the rating gain/loss more strict. Atm I only play in the lower tiers where it probably (short queue even in ranked) gives me a close matchup always (same level on both teams) and I gain/lose only about 13-14 most tof the time. If this is for close matches with a difference of 100 or so ... then I guess 1700 vs 1400 it would already be 0 or close to 0. With the longer queue time it would just not be worth farming ... and less and less fun.

 

Are people that hardcore to grind rank under such circumstances? (Taking ages with only +1 or +2 each match and queuing 10 minutes or more?)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Luthan.5236" said:

>

> Are people that hardcore to grind rank under such circumstances? (Taking ages with only +1 or +2 each match and queuing 10 minutes or more?)

 

Yes.

 

And it's more about not losing -50 per a bad match, than it is gaining +1 per win.

[Grimjack.8130]

theyre literally streaming their games idk what to tell you get good i guess

[Eddbopkins.2630]

This is why I'm against the que expanding to include lower or higher tier people.

If your top 25 or even top 50 u should only play those top 100. If u don't want long ques don't be top ranked.

 

If the leaders/streamers of the community can idk pull there community to que at the same time they do I'm sure they'll have plenty of games to not wait for.

[Zexanima.7851]

I can't tell you how many times I've been paired with someone in the top 20~ as a player who plays around 1400-1500 rating. Its nonsense really.

[Luthan.5236]

But I guess they would not lose 50 in a bad match if they are paired against guys of the same level I guess? (Only if they lose vs. weaker ranked players that might "counter" theilr builds.)

 

**Overall a good solution might be to remove ranks/rating (just hide it, no top list) and the rewards (remove the leaderboards and the rewards for the top 250).

**

People would still manipulate in the ranked/unranked just for their rank points and the normal league rewards (chest farming and losing on purpose to get lower rating and being able to win a lot when matched vs lower people when you really are stronger) but it might be less of a problem than with leaderboards.

 

Tbh I don't think ArenaNet cares. I mean there are even custom arenas for farming of the other useless rank and I guess for the reward tracks. And this is officially allowed. They even announce farming there and there is a farming guide on the Wiki lol. :disappointed:

 

If even such blatant manipulation (they could easily perma ban here) is allowed I doubt they will make efforts for the few high ranked players that get bad matchups when people always will find a way to manipulate. (They still might make alt accounts to roflstomp newbies and lose on purpose for the lulz.)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> theyre literally streaming their games idk what to tell you get good i guess

 

Whether it's streamed or not is kind of besides the point.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Luthan.5236" said:

>

> **Overall a good solution might be to remove ranks/rating

 

I had been thinking about that myself actually.

 

Maybe time to leave the competitive stuff, title, ect ect, to ATs.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Luthan.5236" said:

> >

> > **Overall a good solution might be to remove ranks/rating

>

> I had been thinking about that myself actually.

>

> Maybe time to leave the competitive stuff, title, ect ect, to ATs.

 

Ooo all competitive titles n stuffs in ATs. Ooo mmm that's an interesting idea..

[Leonidrex.5649]

if you queue dodge you are officially a Pussycat.

your winrate is meaningless, you are still a Pussycat.

[Grimjack.8130]

you cant queue dodge if ur qing on stream for 5 hours at a time

[Eddbopkins.2630]

There really needs to be more of a population honestly, but since there isn't the algorithm needs to change to accommodate a lower population, wheather that's with longer que times to make fairer matches, or just to make sure you don't fight the same rev necro duo you've been losing against for a third time that night. Would really increase the fun that this game is supposed to have.

 

I don't mind losing but to the same people who just kill you with over a 100+ hits of torment and 50+ hits of burn over and over again. There really is so much clearing one can do before it just runs out. But Condi application really is endless, maybe it's time to make dodge work against Condi ticks.. o geez I'm changing the subject sry.

[Khalisto.5780]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > theyre literally streaming their games idk what to tell you get good i guess

>

> Whether it's streamed or not is kind of besides the point.

 

humm, i think he meant, ppl watching the stream would see they doing all this q dodge. So they are not doing this so extensively as you think.

 

As a player that barely make it to plat things work kinda different

 

All tryhards in plat know Naru by now, and this is how I behave:

 

Log in, q up without cheking friend list and play games, if I see any of this top 50 ppl in my matches, doesn't matter what team they're in the dodge wars begins, cuz I know I can consistently be matched with or against them due to low population.

 

I'm not saying top players don't q dodge, I'm saying ppl trying to go for the titles are much more likely to dodge them, I think the low plats are all dodging all other equallty skilled or better players much more than the actual top ones.

 

This 2v2 season is particularly boring, the necro, fb, rev meta, did not make me quit it, but made me not care about my rating at all, I just play all sorts of silly builds just to farm the new armor and some gold as fast as possible, ppl that still care about their rating may play just to avoid the decay.

 

Most ppl don't get to face this top players, like you said, you have to be gold 3+ or so. So it's more a plat division issue than a general matchmaking issue.

 

Your suggestion is good and may work well for all community, but you looking at it from a plat player perspective, which is only 10% of the pvping community.

 

With this low population a change like that could completely make players not finda a match for days, because it doesn't match well with their available time to play.

 

Imagine a player being 1650 living in asia, and he only can play at super early time considering the server time, now he farms the same 1500 duo 3 times, those guys immediatly q dodge him, and then boom, no more matches.

 

 

[mes.4607]

I just want to say, my duo and I have not queue dodged anyone. We've had some great matches this season. Definitely enjoy 2v2. I hope it's here to stay in some shape or form

[Dantheman.3589]

Obviously wouldnt work atm with ppl in 2200+ elo who would never get a match, but we should ask- will they ever get that high without farming ppl in completely different elos. Answer for the majority of ppl in top 20 there is a zero percent chance they could repeat their elo, but ppl duo Qing on op meta comps will end up winning a little too much still and maybe 1 duo might break matchmaking at best, but who knows we might see even more que dodging

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> you cant queue dodge if ur qing on stream for 5 hours at a time

 

but wussies will qdodge for you :)

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

It's a good idea, I think for getting rid of some of the high-level metagaming.

 

Would love to see something like implemented on top of split queues to keep DuoQ/Teams competitive after such a feature gets put in.

[Bazsi.2734]

So if you climb enough you lock yourself out of the gamemode? You might not get enough games even because of this, falling off of the leaderboards - just because your duo dominates the gamemode?

2v2 needs more and vastly different maps. Some open, some maze-like, some with rearranging jumping puzzles which have powerups hidden at the top etc(the point is to break the dominance of the few bruiser builds which hold the top spots by design), and there need to be changes aswell. For example, don't kick someone for inactivity after being dead for 60 seconds.... and gamemode specific rewards. For example a cape, that changes its animation depending on your ladder rank.

My suggested changes would require much more work ofc, but effectively kicking outlier accounts out of the gamemode won't help 2v2.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> So if you climb enough you lock yourself out of the gamemode? You might not get enough games even because of this, falling off of the leaderboards - just because your duo dominates the gamemode?

> 2v2 needs more and vastly different maps. Some open, some maze-like, some with rearranging jumping puzzles which have powerups hidden at the top etc(the point is to break the dominance of the few bruiser builds which hold the top spots by design), and there need to be changes aswell. For example, don't kick someone for inactivity after being dead for 60 seconds.... and gamemode specific rewards. For example a cape, that changes its animation depending on your ladder rank.

> My suggested changes would require much more work ofc, but effectively kicking outlier accounts out of the gamemode won't help 2v2.

 

this isnt mario cart, we dont need jumping puzzle for power ups.

2v2 is a 4fun game mode and nothing more, there is legit nothing that can be done to fix 2x FB or FB+Rev or FB+necro ETC ETC comps from being way above the rest.

weakness of other classes comes down to burst or suprise factor or mobility and its just fucking useless in 2v2 wher eyou just stand mid and puke aoe on the floor.

maybe 3v3 with 2 nodes could be more balanced or just add new 5v5 maps, 2v2 has failed before it even started.

Unless anet wants to make some 2v2 only nerfs to make some classes balanced there is no point.

and I dont see them nerfing their precious baby guard any time soon.

[Grimjack.8130]

@"Leonidrex.5649" ok time to add to the TOS no streaming during pvp allowed, thats the best idea so far

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> @"Leonidrex.5649" ok time to add to the TOS no streaming during pvp allowed, thats the best idea so far

 

do what you want, if you stream and play people pusis will avoid playing with you, its just what it is

[Chaith.8256]

Wouldn't be surprised if several 1800+ people were queue dodging the #1. That is like, 3 duos. Queue dodging is not a problem, it's simply small population. It's pretty darn unlikely that you and other top100 people are going to be queuing at the exact same time and aren't already in a match. This is another Trevor Boyer conspiracy like hackers everywhere, and wintrading in every game. :astonished:

 

Edit: Especially because many of the top players are actively spamming queues on stream, or can confirm that they're ran into each other before (wasn't purely queue dodged).

[zoopop.5630]

100% small population.

 

Imagine being 1300 rated in 2vs2 as a Solo Player getting paired against a duo over 2k LOL.

 

The game mode needs to be fix in multiple ways. Placing Blame on higher rated players isn't the way to go about it and Reason why the population is dog shit low is because of the amount of unfun it is to run against double Necro, Double Fb, Double Engi Etc Or Something along the lines of FB/Necro and FB/Crev.

 

teleport Issues on some maps also being something that a lot of players don't like but to make it simple theirs JUST WAY to much stuff that needs to be addressed if 2vs2 wants to actually be something else other then a meme.