Aza.2105

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > 

> > > >

> > > > Its simple to get almost 4000 power with p/p. 75% crit rate and nearly 240% crit dmg increase. This isn't taking into consideration the damage modifiers from various traits.

> > > >

> > > > 4000 power is a lot. The base power is around 2200ish with a zerk amulet. So p/p thief can get close to double. That is insane. Thanks anet, wonderful balance team you got here lol.

> > > >

> > >

> > > And 11k health

> > >

> > > Also show all the boons and trait lines and utilities

> > >

> > > The picture combined with what you say is rather misleading

> >

> > Yes its a conspiracy theory to get thief nerfed.

> >

> > I know you play and enjoy the class, but gez man. You are doing the samething players who are emotionally tied to mesmer do. Aka what ever criticism about the class is a exaggeration and misleading.

> >

> >

>

> Lol I don’t play p/p thief

> I could take the same photo with daggers instead of pistols and have the same numbers

>

> Show the traits, buffs, and utilities


> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > 

> >

> > Its simple to get almost 4000 power with p/p. 75% crit rate and nearly 240% crit dmg increase. This isn't taking into consideration the damage modifiers from various traits.

> >

> > 4000 power is a lot. The base power is around 2200ish with a zerk amulet. So p/p thief can get close to double. That is insane. Thanks anet, wonderful balance team you got here lol.

> >

>

> And 11k health

>

> Also show all the boons and trait lines and utilities

>

> The picture combined with what you say is rather misleading

Yes its a conspiracy theory to get thief nerfed.

I know you play and enjoy the class, but gez man. You are doing the samething players who are emotionally tied to mesmer do. Aka what ever criticism about the class is a exaggeration and misleading.

> @"Majirah.5089" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> >

> > > Oh come on enough of the hyperbole. A millisecond? Are you kidding me? The channel of the Unload is 1.5 seconds.

> > Light armor targets die in maybe half the channel time. Heavy armor targets need a full unload 1/2. Medium armor targets die with a full unload, or 1.5secs.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> This is hyperbole. I haven’t died to a single unload, or even 2 unloads, on any armor rating. Mainly because I’m not afk. It’s quite easy to not eat a full unload. Dodge, block, use a skill with evade, interrupt, reflect...the list goes on. Then they also don’t get the initiative refund. Without the refund the skill is expensive.

>

> Also for this to even be possible when the thief is targeting an afk player the thief has to be full glass in zerker. Zerker thieves die very fast. I’m never worried about going up against a team with a pp thief. They are usually just a liability. Only thing they are good against is scourges. Even then a proper thief will do just fine.

>

So your argument is that you dodged or blocked. Ok. But what does this have to do with a build that has 4k power, 75% crit rate and 240% crit damage chewing through armor? I'm not even sure why you mentioned armor rating, like you are magically exempt from it. You aren't, you just "avoided" a one second death. That isn't a very good argument you know. Since its a 5v5 game what does this mean? Its not a 1v1 game. Which means you aren't going to save your cooldowns, dodges etc for that one encounter with thief. Its not a realistic scenario and you should know this.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> Oh come on enough of the hyperbole. A millisecond? Are you kidding me? The channel of the Unload is 1.5 seconds.

Light armor targets die in maybe half the channel time. Heavy armor targets need a full unload 1/2. Medium armor targets die with a full unload, or 1.5secs.


Its simple to get almost 4000 power with p/p. 75% crit rate and nearly 240% crit dmg increase. This isn't taking into consideration the damage modifiers from various traits.

4000 power is a lot. The base power is around 2200ish with a zerk amulet. So p/p thief can get close to double. That is insane. Thanks anet, wonderful balance team you got here lol.

Everyone having access to 25 stacks of might SOLO, in addition to other damage increasing boons (fury, quickness, too a extent alacrity) is the reason for the power creep. Ever wonder why P/P can kill you in a second? They usually have almost 25 stacks of might, fury etc. Ever wonder why Mesmer is so strong while having a paladin amulet? 25 stacks of might and high durations of every other boon. Why is holosmith so strong? 25 stacks of might and nearly every other boon.

It needs to be changed. There should be no way that one character solo should be able to have access to 25 stacks of might and high up time of other boons. 25 stacks of might should be reserved for team synergy, not one character. I believe if Anet either changed how much power/condi might offers in pvp or significantly lower how much access a single profession has of might and other boons. Then we will see a significant decrease in bursty damage all around.

Nearly every class has access to almost every boon in high duration or intensity at all times. When you journey back to the beginning of the game, it was not like this. A skill like staff #4 on guardian was considered good because it provided the team with so much might at once. Because might wasn't in abundance nor were any other boons really. Not anymore.

Ben, Anet, you guys need to seriously re-examine how much and how often a single class has access to boons. Particularly the damage increasing ones.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> HEALTH does matter.

It does not matter. If these high damage builds melt 20k health + in a second, then it melts 10k health in a second as well. What does a extra 10k health provide? A millisecond more? Thats not even a human reaction time.

I've tested thoroughly. I tried barbarian amulet with warrior, I melted in a second to high damage builds. I tried barbarian amulet with rev, (who has the highest raw condi mitigation in the game) and I melted in a second. It does NOT matter. You can go try yourself. If it mattered adding extra vitality would be a talked about way to counter the high damage builds going around. But its not, because you know why? Health means nothing.

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> Well by your logic pretty much every build in the game should be nerfed then. I don't think there are any damage-oriented builds in gw2 that cannot do 20k or more damage within a second if the other player is just standing there afk. Why should pistols thief get nerfed when all these other builds can do it as well?

Correct, thats why I told you do not look at it as a direct attack on the thief profession. Because its not. Ultimately the only thing this type of damage does is push the game into a direction were only long durations of block, evade and invul are the only things that keep you from dying. This is wrong, it creates a highly polarized game play where skill is absent.

Health needs to matter, natural defense needs to matter.

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> I'm missing the point? People are calling for nerfs to a build that is actually trash, what is the point if that isn't it?

Yes, you take it as a personal attack on the thief class. So I will make it very clear and simple:

Nothing should exist in a competitive gaming environment that can 100 - 0 in around a second. This can apply to ANY class. I do not want to hear about reflect, that is irrelevant. Because I will still tell you that skills, builds that can kill a player in a second SHOULD NOT exist. Period.

Do you understand why health exists and why each player doesn't have 1 health? Health represents the amount of chances you have to win. Design wise, higher health and natural sturdiness illustrates that this class/build has many chances to win at the cost of something else. However, when you have a skill or build that can kill anything in a second, regardless of the amount of health or toughness this this negates the whole point of having health bar. Since it doesn't matter if you have 100 health or 20,000 health. The result is the same. That is my point.

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > Oh look everyone, it's our daily qq thread about how thief is broken because "3 spam is op" even though the build is bad and easily defeated by pressing any reflect .

> >

> > So you either reflect or get 100 -0 in a second? Is this what it comes down to? This is the problem with the gw2 community, that you have people who defend this type of game play. I don't care what class it is, you should not be able to 100 - 0 a player within in a second, let alone just pressing ONE button. Its not just a "thief" thing. Damage across the board needs to be toned down significantly and firebrand needs to NOT be a healer.

>

> Implying that reflect is the only way to defeat the build now? We listed the number of ways to defeat the build, THEY ARE QUITE NUMEROUS, and the build itself is trash tier. I'm getting really kitten tired of people whining because they failed to press one of the 16+ buttons on their skill bar to prevent death. THE ONLY reason I even brought up reflect is because reflect outright DEFEATS the build by using a defensive ability.

>

> Name one other build in gw2 that LITERALLY dies instantly from full hp because it attacked into a defensive ability?

>

> I'm sorry but this isn't a case of defending a build like chronomancer which is obviously op and has no real counter, this is a build with A kitten MULTITUDE of EASILY EXECUTED COUNTERS, and your failure to use any of them is on you, not on the opponent, not on thief mains, and certainly not on anet's balance team for making a build that is easily countered but people are not smart enough to do it.

>

> Why should the game be balanced around your inability to activate a counter to a build? "BUT AH DON'T WHANT TAH PRESS MAH COUNTA PISTAHLS BUTTON" is not an excuse to nerf a build.

You totally miss the point.

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> Oh look everyone, it's our daily qq thread about how thief is broken because "3 spam is op" even though the build is bad and easily defeated by pressing any reflect .

So you either reflect or get 100 -0 in a second? Is this what it comes down to? This is the problem with the gw2 community, that you have people who defend this type of game play. I don't care what class it is, you should not be able to 100 - 0 a player within in a second, let alone just pressing ONE button. Its not just a "thief" thing. Damage across the board needs to be toned down significantly and firebrand needs to NOT be a healer.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> How much longer till the balance patch Anet?

Six months from now.

> @"CaldaRaric.6305" said:

> Where there is one mega op class that ruins the fun for people not playing said class which we all know what said class I’m referring to? It’s my first season.

Yes.

IF its not PVE, then its a low priority. If anyone says other wise then they are fooling themselves. I don't think there have even been many patches were everything has been ok. Anet always nerfs something then gives buffs no one ever asked for nor needed, spiraling balance out of control. Furthermore they don't test things in spvp, so I guess we the players are the guinea pigs.

Nah you shouldn't be able to spam one button to get so much damage, but then again this is guild wars 2.

Its not even worth debating with the players who defend it because GW2 pvp has clouded their perception of what is acceptable and what shouldn't be. Since GW2 generally consists of cheese, most players have become use to it. I can't think of any competitive game that has a single button that you can spam over and over again, which can 100 -0 even the most sturdy character. BUT I CAN name plenty of Korean mmos that generally have that type of game play. Which is sad, seeing that Korean mmos are gear dependent while GW2 isn't.

* Should invulnerable skills really be the only thing standing in the way of you dying instantly?

* Should block/evade spam really be the only thing standing in the way of you dying instantly?

* Should you be able to 100 to 0 any enemy target with one skill in a bit over a second?

* Should you be able to 100 to 0 any target in a bit over a second?

Anet should change everyone's health to 100hp. Because no matter how much health you have, it is absolutely useless. There isn't much difference dying in a second with 20k health and dying in a second with 100hp.

At this point in time, I'm convinced that GW2 pvp is destined to be bad for the rest of its life time. If Anet hasn't got it right within five years, then the next five years will continue to get worse. Obviously I respect the devs, but I will continue to be critical of what they have done with spvp. We go from a decent pvp game at launch to a dodge or die pvp game. Very sad indeed. The biggest culprit is how easy boon access is at this time. Nearly every profession can some how get 25 stacks of might along with many other boons. If I were Anet I'd just nerf boon intensity, durations and so forth just for spvp.

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> > I'm interested in average time to kills on a warrior target (no defensive passives, no adrenal health) with knight/paladin's amulets (1200 toughness) vs. power for meta builds

> >

> > and

> >

> > average time to kill on a warrior (no defensive passives, no adrenal health) target with barbarians (1200 vitality) vs. condition for meta builds

> >

> > compared to

> >

> > average time to kill on the same target with a berserker's amulet

> >

> > The point of this is to determine the true value of vitality and toughness (in seconds).

>

> Just stick to demolisher if you are playing warrior . You wont be mistaken . Condi builds almost doesnt exist. Scourge and occasional mirage players.

I don't think he is asking if you should use demolishers amulet on warrior or not. I think he wants to know how effective defensive amulets are and what would be the difference if you just used zerker amulet instead.

I can't provide the exact numbers but it doesn't really matter when you go against high damage burst skills. Power GS mesmer and FA Ele still kill you in a second or so, regardless if you have 1200 toughness or vitality.

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> I'm interesting in what the average time to live is for a player that isn't using any defensive CDs against most meta builds. I am sure it is under a time frame that can be realistically reacted to by a human player.

I wouldn't call it instantly, but its very close. Around the one second mark or so for sure.

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"BlueCar.1587" said:

> > The following list includes some suggestions about things that would be nice to have in pvp but don´t require much effort to work.

> > (This thread is not about balance)

> >

> > - Legendary weapons and trinkets. Not the skins but the utility of legendary weapons, similar to the legendary armor we already have. Make the precursers very expensive (1000 ascended shards of glory and 10 grandmaster marks or something like this), but make them purchassable.

>

> Weapons are probably unlikely. We've talked about trinkets before though. We still have some questions we have to work out internally.

>

> > - 32 slot baggs. I´ve stolen this idea from another thread, but in my opinion it would be cool if there was a possiblity to increase the inventory space with grinding pvp and not being forced to grind pve .(just make them expensive enough, so that not everybody just farms them in pvp and the pve-players complain about being bullied).

>

> We're not opposed to this, with proper pricing & time commitment. It's something I'd like to do at some point, but not yet sure where I'll fit it in with everything else we're doing right now.

>

> >

> > I´m curious about the communitie´s thoughts about how to make the pvp-experience more comfortable :)

> >

> >

>

>

Hey Ben.....can you by any chance lower the requirements of champion brawler and conqueror? I always thought 10k wins was a bit excessive.....I've been playing since launch and I have a bit over half that. At this rate gw3 will be out before I ever finish the last tiers lol. PLEASE MAN! PLEASE change it! 2k wins would be a nice modest requirement.

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> I didnt read all of it, but I can imagine that this game has become too fast. You can die ridiculously fast. An important nerf Anet should implement is a nerf on teleports. Thief, rev, guard, and mes all have teleports in their most important builds, which renders most classes/builds that use ranged attacks often pretty useless. Ofcourse they should get something in return, but I think a nerf on teleports is justified.

Well there are two different types of teleports in this game. One that teleports you to the target and the other which allows you to teleport any where within a specific range. Guardian teleport is different, it only allows you to teleport to a specific target. So it can't be used as a escape tool (most of the time). Understand that guardian teleport was designed to port them to a target and keep them there until the target dies or they do. If teleports were to be changed it wouldn't be a universal change it would depend upon how the teleport is used.

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Toron.4856" said:

> > could we have any feedback on what your gonna do about mesmers?

> >

> > theres a mega threat with 1.1k comments and like 20 more posts about mesmers complains per forum page.

> >

> > isnt it obvious that everyone wants something to be done about it?

> >

> > its so unenjoyable facing 2 chronos everytime game you que.

> >

> > so yeah.. could we please have a statement on what your plans are?? please? anything would be appreciated... dont let us play this awful pvp season without knowing how long the mesmer train is gonna last.

> >

> > thx

>

> I can't say much right now, except that the Systems team (Skills & Balance + Competitive) are well aware that mesmers are a huge concern for the community right now. We're looking at them and discussing various ideas for changes.

You guys should be looking into scourge as well why you are at it. Both Mesmer rework and Scourge are abominations to spvp. If you remove those two from the game, then pvp is actually good! Put those two together and the capture point is a mix between several, large, pulsing, and visually disturbing, high damaging condition spreading circles. All while there are 8+ clones are on the point. The thing that is upsetting is that constantly time and time again Anet just lets this slide and make players who actually like spvp endure through it while they think of what to change or if they will change anything. And each time the pvp population becomes smaller and smaller.

How about before pushing big changes on spvp that you guys place it on a test server and get feedback from the spvp community?

> @"Delweyn.1309" said:

> So if community is composed at 95% of very bad players who die on mecanics that good players can evade easily, dev team will do a lot of work about it ?

> Where is your competitive aspect ?

Except that isn't the problem. There is a difference between l2p and your screen being filled with a absurd amount of visual clutter, all the while the mesmer is doing high damage with a high damage mitigation up time and the ability to reset fights over and over again. I've never seen too many complaints about memsers up until the rework.

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> 

>

> I assume this is what OP is talking about.

Looks similar to my screenshot. And someone said I was cherry picking lmao:


> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Yes, clutter..that's the whole point of the mesmer. Keeping ennemies confused with all the clutterness. With out it, the mesmer is just a sitting dead target.

Nice joke.

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> Pretty nuts, wonder what amulet the mesmer was running.

Probably paladin.

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> Miss miss miss miss, block block,

> Evade evade..

> Block block..stealth.. block block..

> Invulnerable, miss miss..

> Evade..

> You critically hit X for 200 on a 8x 3k channel ONCE..

> Your target disappeared and you are swinging in thin air..

> A wild flurry appeared.

> Invulnerable

> It's super effective..

> Stealth.. block block..

> miss miss, miss miss,

> >!miss miss miss, miss miss miss.. miss miss.. %$#% miss..

> Evade..

> Things hit you, or you hit you for over 9000

> You are stunned..

> You want to cast..

> You are confused..

> You are dead...

>

> My combat log doesn't lie..

>

Yep this is true. And oh after all of those defenses are expired they just teleport away and wait for them to come back. Yes!!!