Aza.2105

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> To think about it, there's lots of viable builds that work in PvP but all of them require the player to do more than 3 buttons and to think about what skills they are using or could use in a few more skills.

The more you have to think while using a build, the worse the build is. Top tier builds always use the least amount of decision making and usually have the least amount of consequences.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

>Powershatter is the best in rekting newbies and bad player.

Nah, the ai clutter paired with extremely high damage and defense is a bit too much. I understand, that after playing GW2 for so long you begin to appreciate its imbalance and consider it normal.

In short, your perception is clouded.

> @"bLind.6278" said:

> > @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > Alas, the Thief is considered A-class because it can run to an empty point faster than most, and it can actually help to kill an outnumbered opponent.

> >

> > I wonder if it will still be considered A-class when it carries Shortbow/Shortbow for Quick Pockets?

>

> I keep forgetting that 90% of the playerbase thinks that conquest is just a DM in the middle of the map until one team accidentally wins.

Nah, I'd say a large portion of conquest matches end up the way they do because the lack of communication. Its a esports type mode pushed on a bunch of randoms, who are expected to somehow coordinate and communicate. Sometimes you get players who do not even speak English.

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Necros don't need anymore nerfs its l2p issue.Sorry if i'm being cold, but scourge just got nerfed on their cds, and now have fairly long cds on everything.

Nah its broken. Aoe shouldn't be larger than the capture point. How many overly large aoe can they put on the point? 2 or 3? With scourge you don't even need to know what the skills do to succeed. All you need to do is spam them when they are off CD.

What went wrong is the samething that has been going on for 5 years. It works sort of like this:

**Anet**: We are going to release some balance changes, hopefully to change up the meta and tone down (insert whatever that might be here).

**Community**: These changes seem ok....but why didn't you address (insert problem here). Its game breaking, please change it.

**Anet**: No response

*Releases patch*

**Community**: OMG! I can't believe Anet did not balance (insert random OP stuff), why release a patch then?

This is pretty much it. Anet tends to not listen. If we were to remove scourge and mesmer from pvp right now, I'd say the patch was pretty good. But they failed to address scourge and mesmer in the right way so the skill split is useless since it didn't address the problems with these two classes. Post patch I had a match that didn't have a scourge or mesmer on the other team. And you know what? It felt great and believe it or not...semi balanced.

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> > @"daw.4923" said:

> > 60 illusions per minute,infinite dodge/evade macro every single game.

>

> Shhhhh... don't give them any ideas...

The next Mesmer elite trait line will allow the mesmer to continue to multiple themselves each time they are attacked. Each clone spawns mimics skills that the real mesmer uses. Each clone does 50% of the real mesmers damage. When the mesmer dies they multiply into a dozen or so tiny mesmers, then you have to find the real one to stomp before they rez.

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Oh wait. You also are getting 25K DJ’d by Deadeyes. Forgot about that. Excuse me. You gave me a good laugh.

At least Deadeye players have a legit excuse. They can say yea it hits for 25k but Deadeye has no defense. Mesmer on the other hand....leaps, portal, evades for days, stun break while cced, stealth, clones. Yeah....

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> You know, in most games that feature a block mechanic, people are punished for block turtling too hard. Whether it be via draining stamina, HP or both, blocking an attack typically has some kind of a consequence.

That is the unique thing about gw2 and why it always has extreme imbalances. It doesn't really have consequences to ones actions. Which is why there is always complaints about spam. There are only two things that come to mind that force players to make decisions and that have consequences: Stun break and Condi removal. That is about it I think.

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> I’ve offered multiple suggestions that would bring Mesmer in line.

Lots of people offer suggestions. What makes you better than them?

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy.

>

> I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc.

Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc.

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> Eh, it worked in WoW, but that's because sheeping people was a disable that was removed as soon as the sheep took damage. There was a similar skill for the Rogue in WoW as well, where you can disable somebody for up to 2 minutes, but any damage would break them out of it instantly.

Yep but wow is considered among most to be a pve game. Thing is stupid crowd control isn't uncommon in games that are geared for pve but allow pvp. In lineage 2 they had a paralyze skill that lasted for two minutes. Yeah you couldn't move for two minutes while enemies nuked you. They also had a silence that lasted two minutes, yep you couldn't use any skill for two minutes. All that is cool for pve but not for pvp.

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

>Moa was a noob killer

Moa wasn't a noob killer, it was a pvp killer. In no competitive game should a player ever lose control of their character. That is why it was bad.

Put a cap on the Mesmer illusions or what ever they are called. I just fought two mesmers and it literally looked like there were 10 different characters on my screen. This is insane. They can do burst damage? Cool, i don't care. But don't clutter my screen with a mess of endless AI npcs. Thing is I'm willing to bet that this stays this way for the next several months or who knows several years. Or until its seen as a problem in pve then its instantly changed within a week. I don't want to sound condescending, because I actually respect the devs here. But you guys just release stuff and it seems like there is no care how it affects players in pvp.

Look I get it, mesmers are suppose to have illusions. Fine. But how much is too much? Should we really be burdened to deal with 4-5+ at once? Then that number multiples the more mesmers you add on your team. It becomes just crazy after awhile.


I counted 9 illusions. No idea where the real mesmer was at that point. Also there were two mesmers, I believe running the same build. So that would be 18 Ai clones. And yep the mesmer had evades, blocks as well as 25 stacks of might, nearly always had stability and access to invul and stealth.

Ben, ask your colleagues.....what on earth were they thinking? If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve. Because it doesn't seem to have been made for pvp. Unless for some reason Anet wants players to deal with 18 AI clones and have to manually try to click the real Mesmer.

I'm sure new elite specs will be wonderful for pve. But it will bring pvp further down the toilet. And we are already deep in doo doo.

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> They only have 3 devs that work on the skills and balance team, based off of the only 3 who are ever credited for designing new elite specs are the same 3 that answer all balance related questions. Its not possible to push out faster balance patches when they have 9 classes, 63 traitlines and who knows how many skills to balance, for 3 different game modes.

The rate of balance patches have been roughly the same since launch when they had more devs working it, who were actually dedicated to pvp.

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> OK, I will take the bait. First of all, the patch was just yesterday so it is still too early to say that mesmers will dominate the next month or so. Second of all, people are "quiting" since the game was released. And lastly, IF there will be a lot of mesmers, then there will be an entire range of their skill level. A really bad mesmer is quite amusing to fight :D

Nah its not too early to tell. In fact smart players already foreseen it. The game has been around 5 years. And players who have been around since launch have noticed a pattern with Anet's balancing habits and the strength of professions. Each time something is called out it always happens. Remember when anet gave necro access to burning? A lot of players were like DON"T DO IT! But anet did it anyway. And for months and months everyone had to deal with it, then they removed it because it was in fact over powered.

Its not hard to tell what will end up overpowered in this game. In fact its very very easy. Right now Mesmer is overpowered and so is scourge.

> @"kappa.2036" said:

> Nothing more to say. Infinite clone spam coupled with invulns, evades, blocks, massive cc and damage. The thing that makes me angry is that everyone said it before the patch came out, and anet did absolutely nothing to change things. I'm disappointed.

Anet does not give a crap. After five years everyone should know this already. Hell even hackers aren't punished, what does that tell you about pvp??????

> @"pah.4931" said:

> Anet agrees with you...

>

> "...as I've said before, we know we still have a lot more balance work to do. We always will. Balance is a moving target. And not everything can be fixed with a few numbers tweaks." -- Ben Phongluangtham

This is good to know and I hope its not done in yearly intervals.

> @"nortask.8351" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"nortask.8351" said:

> > > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > > @"nortask.8351" said:

> > > > > Honestly not that bad... they didn't fix scourge but they made it so that the gameplay will be a little more thought out, so that is better imo. Engi didn't need to be done like that though. Thief and warr nerfs were fine, ele likely didn't see much but with the nerfs to druid, may take the cake for the home bunker/far fisher. Guardian got sadded, but that is fine because with the removal of the magi ammy they will need to play more hybrid anyway. Mesmer nerfs looked good to me but we will see in time if it was too much or not. Passive play was only a small part of the problem

> > > >

> > > > Nothing will change. Things will change when Anet addresses:

> > > >

> > > > * Aoe spam

> > > > * AI Clutter

> > > > * Damage being done vs a players health pool

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Aoe spam: that is literally this game in a nutshell.

> > > AI clutter: what like minion necro? mesmers are fine, that is what the class does.

> > > evade on skills: Agreed with for the most part

> > > Astronomically high damage: That is being addressed to some extent in today's (march 27) update

> >

> > They will need a pvp/wvw skill round 2 and 3. Everything needs to be dialed back.

> >

>

> Oh yea I agree to that, but seeing actual steps being taken towards a good balance is exciting!

Yeah I guess so.

> @"nortask.8351" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"nortask.8351" said:

> > > Honestly not that bad... they didn't fix scourge but they made it so that the gameplay will be a little more thought out, so that is better imo. Engi didn't need to be done like that though. Thief and warr nerfs were fine, ele likely didn't see much but with the nerfs to druid, may take the cake for the home bunker/far fisher. Guardian got sadded, but that is fine because with the removal of the magi ammy they will need to play more hybrid anyway. Mesmer nerfs looked good to me but we will see in time if it was too much or not. Passive play was only a small part of the problem

> >

> > Nothing will change. Things will change when Anet addresses:

> >

> > * Aoe spam

> > * AI Clutter

> > * Damage being done vs a players health pool

> >

> >

> >

>

> Aoe spam: that is literally this game in a nutshell.

> AI clutter: what like minion necro? mesmers are fine, that is what the class does.

> evade on skills: Agreed with for the most part

> Astronomically high damage: That is being addressed to some extent in today's (march 27) update

They will need a pvp/wvw skill round 2 and 3. Everything needs to be dialed back.

> @"nortask.8351" said:

> Honestly not that bad... they didn't fix scourge but they made it so that the gameplay will be a little more thought out, so that is better imo. Engi didn't need to be done like that though. Thief and warr nerfs were fine, ele likely didn't see much but with the nerfs to druid, may take the cake for the home bunker/far fisher. Guardian got sadded, but that is fine because with the removal of the magi ammy they will need to play more hybrid anyway. Mesmer nerfs looked good to me but we will see in time if it was too much or not. Passive play was only a small part of the problem

Nothing will change. Things will change when Anet addresses:

* Aoe spam

* AI Clutter

* Evade on skills

* Astronomically high damage compared to a players health pool

Mesmer by a wide margin. GW2 is a pve game with pvp as a side show. Even when if Mesmer gets nerfed then some other profession with cheesy and unbalanced skills will take its place. Its just the nature of a game that was designed with PVE in mind first. You can see this pattern in every pve oriented mmorpg out there. The only reason why GW1 was different is because it was designed for pvp.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > I'm lying ? pogchamp

>

> "You keep insisting that memser hacking game and have 10 amulets,2 elite specs in same time."

>

> > Like those from 55ranks who sold mAT ? They had alot of respect from other and now not .

> > Respect has nothing to do with his close to none understanding of mesmer as a class and his statements he do about it.

>

> I guarantee he knows more than you about it. There's a reason he's a top player and you're not.

>

> > At least im not trying to argue holosmith balance because i dont even play it .

> > Once again you demand overnerfing which deserves 90% of classes as well.

>

> 70% damage nerfs to multiple skills that are hitting for 11k+ is not "overnerfing."

>

> > That list is applied to holo , for exception of portal. Have it all. If list everything every class can do ,all of the must be nerfed to groud with 70% damage nerf. Apply it to every class and we can have a deal. On this note im done with you

>

> No, this list does not apply to holo. You're wrong again :]

Man you can't argue with these guys, it will never end. You are correct though, Mesmer in their current state is overpowered.

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

>

> > There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though).

> >

>

> So, Unrelenting Assault 2sec evade + Duelist Preparation 2sec block + Surge of the Mists 1 sec evade + Infuse Light 3sec invu + Riposting Shadows 3/4 evade + 2 evades + endurance gain from riposting shadows is balanced.

> Obsidian Flesh 4sec + Arcane Shield 3blocks + Lesser Arcane Shield 3blocks + 2 evades and access to vigor is balanced.

> But Blurred Frenzy 2 1/2sec + Distortion (let's say 4sec even if very rarely you'll get that much) + 1 Mirror from False Oasis 1sec evade + 2 evades and access to vigor isn't.

>

> Good to know.

>

Duelist preparation no longer exists. It was replaced a few months ago.

Also unrelenting assault is 1 1/2 secs. Infused light has counter play, you don't attack them. Riposting shadows is a defensive skill. It has no offensive component attached to it. Evade is only overpowered when its attached to a offensive skills. And chained with other defensive skills that allow them to easily escape or continue their offense without taking damage.

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> The lack of windows that you have to retaliate.

>

> Power mesmers go down fast, but can you even squeeze damage, let alone burst them in their almost infinite repertoire of damage evasion? Is it really feasible to release your CC / opener when the chances it'll be avoided are incredibly high? It's either that, wait out their cooldowns or get a miraculous read on their game pattern. All of these are incredibly skewed in favor of the mesmer / class with lots of damage avoidance because even if you do land it, it will be stun broken or simply EM'd away, and if you wait it out you're at their mercy.

>

> These builds and traits are the most infurating to deal with. Just when are you supposed to attack? Obviously mesmer pushes this notion to the limit, but we have warrior gs3, shield block, 2x ep on top of the regular dodges. Druid staff 3, bow invis, CA, sword evades, etc. Anything thief, etc.

>

> There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though). Holo is almost there but the double elixir S, the stability and the spectrum shield are pushing that class in the same direction. It's clear that chaining invulns is what makes a class viable in this game, and at the same time what makes them so forgiving and easy to excel with.

>

> So just, nuke the amount of invulns across the board. Every class has access to 2 dodges, but some have considerably higher vigor uptime or traits that replenish vigor in flat amounts. Wasn't Energy sigil nerfed hard in pvp because of this? Give everyone bigger windows for counterplay, and if someone WANTS to spec for damage avoidance, then deny them the massive damage that a DPS oriented build would have.

>

> I'm aware changes of this caliber would require a huge revamp but tbh, this pvp system will never be balanced as long as such massive damage avoidance disparities keep existing between classes.

>

>

Hell yeah man, well said.

Chaining defense is a HUGE problem in this game. Defenses should be a get out of jail free card, that gives the ability to reset the fight and maybe turn it around. But only once. As it stands, many classes can just chain them together. When paired with base dodge, high mobility and some times stealth, it creates TOO many chances to reset the fight. All of which, if played right allows you to loop defenses.

*Invulnerability skills should be rare, kind of like your elite defense card

* Evades on skills should be changed to block, so there is counter play

* Stealth should have a damage penalty if you burst out of stealth, with the exception of thief special stealth skills