Aza.2105

> @"BikeIsGone.8675" said:

> What's with all the complaining about conquest lately?

Its nothing new really. There have been complaints about conquest since the game launched. The mode was designed for esports in mind....you can kind of tell. The thing is since the mode was designed around esports this also means it was designed with communication in mind. Something that is missing when grouping with randoms in ranked arena. My suggestion is they leave conquest for ATs and just give ranked arenas something else. Maybe a refined stronghold type maps would be a better alternative.

The purple sky of the old lobby made me depressed. I like the look of the new one and yea it wouldn't be a bad idea to add a few more areas with practice golems and stuff.

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> I hadn't heard of this happening until now. We'll investigate.

I thought this was a known issue, its happened to me quite a few times!

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> And all of this is based off of their plans shortly after release. We are now going on the 6th year of the game with two elite specs. Everything above is null and void so you can’t base balance now off of it.

>

> Does that mean I agree with the changes? No, they have took on more than they could handle with the introduction of elite specs as they change the premise of the game. However, without going back in time we can’t change that.

My point isn't that they should return to their class philosophy and balance around it. My point is to show what happens when you turn upon your original principles.

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

Here are the exact words from Anet about each class and its balance:

**Warrior**

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

**Guardian**

The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

**Ranger**

The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.

**Engineer**

The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

**Thief**

Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

**Mesmer**

Mesmers rely on illusions in order to accomplish their goals. They need illusions to accomplish some of their highest damage and control, and without the illusions, they become fairly fragile. They can deal with enemy boons better than most classes, but enemy conditions can often be a problem. They share some of the stealth and mobility that the Thief enjoys, but suffer from a low health pool if you get past all their tricks.

**Ele**

We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.

**Necro**

The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

**Going forward**

Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.

AOE balance. We feel that in PvP some AOE builds are too strong for the opportunity cost, and we’ll be bringing those in line in the next few patches.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > The real issue with Mez right now is the class just doesn't have any real weakness. It has SS tier burst damage, SS tier survival, SS tier mobility, SS tier utility, etc. It's supposed to be a jack of all trades class but the rework buffs made it a master of all trades. Anet devs need to sit around and ask themselves "What do we want the counter to mesmer to be?" -because currently there isn't one and that's the problem.

> >

> > You can't give a class legit everything and expect it to be fair in PvP.

> >

> >

>

> And it’s a good thing that it does have counters then isn’t it?

>

> Power shatter is weak to power builds. So... warrior, thief, guardian. It’s also weak to condi.

>

> The Chrono Phantasms build is again weak to power. Condi not so much

>

> The mirage version also weak to power and can be weak to condi.

>

> Condi shatter isn’t used.

>

> Mesmer wasn’t supposed to be s jack of all trades. It was built, from the ground up, to excel in dueling and small scale.

Nope.

Mesmer was suppose to be weak to conditions and when their clones get destroyed they feel pressure. None of this happens anymore. They have condi clear as good as any other class and if you destroy their clones they just summon more and more. Actually each class had a specific weakness that anet listed, they called them "holes in roles". By the time HoT rolled around, most of those holes were gone. Here are some of them that I can remember off hand:

Warrior: Low access to boons, must rely on team mates to clear condis. No way to remove enemy boons so they must power through them with raw damage.

Guardian: Removing boons from them puts a lot of pressure on them, since guardian is a boon oriented class. They also have bad mobility and were designed with no real escape options.

Mesmer: Bad condi removal options, destroying clones puts a lot of pressure on them.

Necro: Lack of reliable stability, so they are prone to CC.

Ele: I don't remember exactly, but I believe theirs was simply they were a jack of all trades. Not being extremely good at any one role.

Thief: Bad access to condi removal, doesn't have access to many boons.

Ranger: Don't remember

Engi: Don't remember

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> You listed out exactly _why_ its healthier that they are not the same thing. Blocking is far more prevalent than evades are, and it has far more counterplay than evades do to compensate for that. Whether the amount of evades in this game need to be toned down is another debate. Besides, dodging is an evade. Under your proposed "solution", we would be able to hit enemies as they are dodging with any unblockable attack

Except that isn't what I'm saying. I'm talking about evades on weapon skills not dodging.

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> This doesn’t fit the narrative and will be quickly shot down using the pretext that they don’t count.

No, I'll just laugh at the list. Every skill listed isn't even used to specifically counter evade spam, it just so happens to do it. Furthermore wards can just be stability through. Only spear of justice pull can be evaded, so this means that some how you hit them first and then they decide to magically stay in your LoS waiting for you to pull them. Or further, they decide to fight you in melee range while they are tethered.

When is the last time retaliation was threating other than to a p/p thief? Auras? Come on. the only one that is threatening out of them is shocking aura.

> @"Girth.9731" said:

> Isn't it funny that the class which is supposed to rely on confusing its enemies to defeat them has become an invuln tank? Not sure why Anet has decided to give mesmer so much invuln/block/evade. I thought after the disaster for balance that HoT release was, Anet was trying to move away from this kind of boring gameplay.

Since the game launched I stood behind the idea that block and evade should just be merged. They perform the EXACT same function, which is completely mitigation of incoming damage with the exception of condi ticks. In addition, evade doesn't have any counter play. While block has unblockable skills available to multiple classes. As it stands evade should NOT be baked on to offensive skills. Defensive skills? Absolutely! But the ability to evade and deal high damage to the opponent is out of proportion. It always been. Its just that in the recent years its become a lot worse.

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season.

>

>

Whoa there buddy, whoa! How dare you say mesmers have too much access to blocks, evades and invul! Mesmer defenders will say they don't have access to all that in one spec! Sure mirage doesn't, but they just trade blocks for more evades. Same crap different name.

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer.

> > >

> > > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

> > >

> > > This is a learn to play issue.

> >

> > Want to know what's a l2p issue? Playing something that isn't a Mesmer. Go try it out and let us know how it feels.

>

> I played soul beast for a while the other day. Once I got used to merging it was fun to play and I don’t see why it isn’t used more. Well I do, Druid’s tanking ability is hard to beat.

> Oh and I played deadeye for a few matches and got bored of it pretty quick, I prefer d/p. Can’t forget scourge either. Scourge is... well we all know it’s ridiculous at the moment. The ability to lay AoE like it does in a conquest game mode is just silly.

>

> That’s about it though. I dislike guard, war, rev, engi and ele so don’t get on them much. Overall I feel like boons are out of control across all classes, expertise and concentration need removed from the game, conditions need an overhaul to be high intensity/low duration low intensity/high duration. Confounding suggestions needs either reworked or replaced with a different trait to eliminate the synergy between it, mental anguish, and MoD. Elusive Mind needs either an icd or the stun break removed and replaced with something else.

> Umm I feel that warrior is pigeoned holed into adrenal health and healing Signet which has too much synergy and the other heals need work. Also Sand Savant needs to be reworked to provide the Scourge with a benefit like stab rather than making shades huge.

>

> I could go on if you’d like.

You the truth now bro. This is everything summed up nicely.

> @"Saiyan.1704" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > > Another season, and almost a year of Renegade trait line, kalla legend, and short bow being useless.

> > >

> > > Still internally raging it was made as bad as it is.

> > >

> > > Maybe 2019 it won't be worst trait line in the game. Never made it close to being comparable to any POF spec in their prime. Still ducking useless after every POF spec has been nerfed multiple times and it has received buffs as big as 333%...

> > >

> > > Wasted money ... GG

> >

> > They never will buff it to were its useful. See guardian signets and spirit weapons, two skill types they tried to buff numerous times. But they are still absolutely useless.

>

> Signet activation skills *could* be worth while in PvP while remain terrible in PvE, and vice versa - the passives being mediocre-to-meta for the PvE gamemode.

>

> Instead, we get unused ability build varients in both gamemodes. In this specific case, we need more "gimmic" abilities like... "It's best in this specific scenario" type ability. I fear we are too concerned with the now instead of the needed.

I'd say everything is wrong with signets. Each utility signet is geared towards a specific playstyle that doesn't work well together. Power, Condi, Support and Bunker. I think if signets had a more universal approach they would be more useful....like restores endurance...removes conditions etc. And don't get me started on the horrible signet GM trait. It might be good for pve...I have no idea. But its not to great in pvp. Skills that are used for specific things are never very useful, imo all skills should have a practical purpose.

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> Things weren't perfect but at least they weren't this bad.. at the very least the pace of combat was still intact and visual clutter was 10 times lower, now it's just a mess.

As time went on Anet continuously lowered the skill floor in pvp by introducing more clutter and skill spam. I'm willing to bet that most scourge players don't even know that their skills do. You really don't have to, you just hit buttons and it works. Design wise, scourge is probably the worst pvp design ever.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> Yeah, revealed has never appropriate or enough to counter stealth. You don't counter invulnerability by simply giving some classes an ability to hard shut-down all invulns in an AoE around them.

>

> Perhaps the best/easiest fix is to reduce Damage / CC / Healing while in stealth by for example 50%. Maybe Thief #1 skill should be the only exception since it's made for this purpose. But things like Mug would still be reduced. This would be healthy longterm for Mesmer, Thief, Druid, Engi. Would like to hear arguments against this, to convince me otherwise!

This is exactly what I was thinking as a solution. I highly doubt Anet will ever implement anything like this however.

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> Another season, and almost a year of Renegade trait line, kalla legend, and short bow being useless.

>

> Still internally raging it was made as bad as it is.

>

> Maybe 2019 it won't be worst trait line in the game. Never made it close to being comparable to any POF spec in their prime. Still ducking useless after every POF spec has been nerfed multiple times and it has received buffs as big as 333%...

>

> Wasted money ... GG

They never will buff it to were its useful. See guardian signets and spirit weapons, two skill types they tried to buff numerous times. But they are still absolutely useless.

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> This is a learn to play issue.

Nah its just bad design. GW2 has a long history of AI clutter in pvp. Ranger petting zoo comes to mind.

> @"BikeIsGone.8675" said:

> So after countless threads about how OP the GS burst on mesmer is (which btw has been basically the same since 2012 and was never considered "meta"), NOW its the AI spam......Not the perma 25 might, perma protection, the nigh-OPness that is chaotic persistence or the insane mobility from sword ambush.....but AI spam.

> Please try again with another thread. Once you have figured out what the actual issues with mesmer are.

>

>

AI spam has always been a complaint in gw2. That's really nothing new.

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> DJ red-laser and projectile effects appear before the initial shot, and reveals the Deadeye before the shot gets executed aswell. So you have BIG tells coming at you and if you are still not dodging, well, the problem isn’t DJ, it’s you.

Does the laser line have a animation?

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> I said when I get marked I know a am being set up to be attacked.

So you are guessing then.

>If I get marked and choose to use all my dodges blocks and the like battling another or just randomly dodging, then it on me if I burned off all those counters for a shot I know will come my way.

Yes, except this isn't a 1v1 game. There will be potentially 4 other players targeting you to make you use those dodges and stun breakers.

> @"Regon Phoenix.8215" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > KILLshot

> >

> > Damage level 1 damage: 949 (2.25)?

> > Damage Level 2 damage: 1,160 (2.75)?

> > Damage Level 3 damage: 1,371 (3.25)?

> > Pierces

> > Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile

> > Range: 1,500

> >

> > Deaths Judgment

> >

> > Damage: 696 (1.65)?

> > Damage bonus per stack: 20%

> > Revealed (3s): You cannot stealth

> > Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile

> > Range: 1,500

> >

> > Killshot hits much harder base. In order to get DJ into killshot range , full malice stacks needed and one must kneel to make the shot. Just as Malificient 7 can be used to maximize damage on a DJ , there are traits that increase kill shot damage. (burst mastery ,Berserkers power)

> >

> > As example , at 7 malice stacks the DE thief gets 21 percent bonus damage to the DJ. Berserkers Power gives that same 21 percent bonus damage to a kill shot. The base damage of a Kill shot is MUCH higher then a DJ meaning the only thing that brings DJ ahead is the bonus off the kneel. Note that while a Kill shot warrior can switch off his target and maintain the SAME high level of damage, a DJ thief will lose damage if they switch targets. Note a Killshot warrior has a shot that pierces and has an esier time making the shot unblockable.

> >

> > So the FACT is yes a Killshot warrior can make a single shot and take someone out with that single shot. One does not need 25k damage to single shot another. The OP is continously moving the Goalposts. The reason DJ will hit harder then a killshot is not because DJ does more damage then KS. it due to other factors and bonuses not directly linked to Killshot (such as executioner , lead attacks, signet use on assassins and so on) which play a role in all thief attacks by design.

>

> Done testing myself. Both with identical amulets, sigils and traits for maximum damage output.

> Killshot against heavy golem - critical for 6000

> Killshot against light golem - critical for 7400

> Death judgement against heavy golem - critical for 12k

> Death judgement against light golem - critical for 16k

>

> Warrior don't have stealth, warrior don't have infinite mobility, warrior can't spam Killshot. So warrior in no way, shape or form can dish out this much damage with a single ability.

Also don't forget:

Kill Shot has a 1 1/4th cast time, while deaths judgement has a 3/4 cast time.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> No it is not guessing. The mark is above your head. I am not guessing it there. This means I can ready for incoming. WHEN the shot occurs you will see the beam just like any tell which gives you the time needed to react. You in effect are getting two warnings. One that you have been selected for a shot. One when that shot made. If you burned off all your dodges and counters after seeing that mark go on above your head it on you.

So when you are marked do you automatically get shot shortly afterwards or does the thief player "choose" when they will shoot?

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> If Coalescence of Ruin does so much damage why would a giant ruined-ground effect matter when you are dead?

Coalescence of Ruin has a VERY clear, telling animation. And it also has a very visible travel time. I've never seen ANYONE complain about it in spvp. WvW might be different since you are surrounded by a blob.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> A mark is a little symbol over your head that allows you a lot of time to ready for that shot.

A mark is a special effect that is ambiguous. Having a mark doesn't mean something will happen shortly afterwords, it means something CAN happen. So a player is no longer reacting to this skill, they are "GUESSING". Its similar to the frustration players would get in old school mmorpg pvp that relied heavily on RNG.

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Except **ALL RIFLE SKILLS OF DEADEYE** has red lasers or shiny-red projectiles you can see easily and dodge.

That isn't character animation. That is a special effect. If death's judgement does so much damage then why would red lasers or shiny red projectiles matter when you are dead?

>And Death’s Judgement has voice tells too, such as “One shot, one kill.” - “This is the end.” - “It’s too late to run.” I can swear I didn’t get hit by DJ once when I wasn’t stunned. L2P issues mostly.

The sound clip doesn't always play. Also sometimes when it plays, nothing happens afterwards. So I'm not sure why you would bring this up when its not even a visual animation.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> KILLshot

>

> Damage level 1 damage: 949 (2.25)?

> Damage Level 2 damage: 1,160 (2.75)?

> Damage Level 3 damage: 1,371 (3.25)?

> Pierces

> Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile

> Range: 1,500

>

> Deaths Judgment

>

> Damage: 696 (1.65)?

> Damage bonus per stack: 20%

> Revealed (3s): You cannot stealth

> Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile

> Range: 1,500

>

> Killshot hits much harder base. In order to get DJ into killshot range , full malice stacks needed and one must kneel to make the shot. Just as Malificient 7 can be used to maximize damage on a DJ , there are traits that increase kill shot damage. (burst mastery ,Berserkers power)

>

> As example , at 7 malice stacks the DE thief gets 21 percent bonus damage to the DJ. Berserkers Power gives that same 21 percent bonus damage to a kill shot. The base damage of a Kill shot is MUCH higher then a DJ meaning the only thing that brings DJ ahead is the bonus off the kneel. Note that while a Kill shot warrior can switch off his target and maintain the SAME high level of damage, a DJ thief will lose damage if they switch targets. Note a Killshot warrior has a shot that pierces and has an esier time making the shot unblockable.

>

> So the FACT is yes a Killshot warrior can make a single shot and take someone out with that single shot. One does not need 25k damage to single shot another. The OP is continously moving the Goalposts. The reason DJ will hit harder then a killshot is not because DJ does more damage then KS. it due to other factors and bonuses not directly linked to Killshot (such as executioner , lead attacks, signet use on assassins and so on) which play a role in all thief attacks by design.

No one complains about killshot because you can see it coming.

There is a pattern to common complaints about gw2 pvp and damage:

Its either condition damage being too bursty or skills that you can't see coming doing so much damage. For the latter its why Mesmer and Thief are common targets, because you can not see their damage coming. The devs feed everyone the idea that gw2 is suppose to be a visual game. To paraphrase their words: "They don't have cast bars because they don't want their players to be glued to them, instead they want them to actually be observant of the animations etc". Stealth breaks this rule because you can't see anything initially, you can guess but that isn't the same as responding to something you see coming. In addition to that, aoe clutter and AI break those rules as well. Because it becomes TOO much for a person to observe.