CutesySylveon.8290

Good riddance to banner camping. Use it where you got it and drop it. Sorry you have to use your class instead of a busted toy to do the work for you.

> @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > I swear to god they better not touch Shoutbreaker in WvW because of sPvP complaints. > > > > > > WvW deserves nothing because it's a confused aberration which rejects any elements of team composition balance or stat restrictions. > > > > Rejects elements of team composition? What are you talking about? Zergs have specific things they want, much to the whining of rangers and thieves that want to zerg while offering nothing or next to nothing to justify their spot. Shoutbreaker is very strong in WvW and started there much earlier than it even thought of coming to sPvP. > > Zergs have their own, perferred, on-the-fly compositions, sure, but the point is that there is no team number limit on any side. Player stats are so oppressively strong in WvW that anybody not running the best 4-stat armor is probably going to either get completely bodied or fail to deal any significant damage in any encounter. Either way, in an even-player encounter or when it comes to zerg v zerg combat, there are always so many discrepancies between parties that it's difficult to take any part of WvW seriously on any sort of competitive level. This isn't saying that GW2 PvP isn't also a titanic joke, but WvW is just GW2 PvP with even more problems with regards to "level competition." This is false on almost every claim. Shoutbreaker uses Cleric stats. Dps builds use zerk with marauder mixed in for bulk until they get comfortable enough to go full zerk. Scrapper and FB are minstrel. Condi builds that are even usable, burn guard, tend to run dire with trailblazer mixed for bulk or just go carrion or sinister because duration isn't important with Balthazar runes and smoldering sigils doing 70% duration by themselves. There are often very FEW discrepancies between zerg comps. You have a few Shoutbreakers for bubbles. Every single squad has a FB. Every squad has either a Scrapper or Tempest. Almost every zerg is lead by a chrono or FB.Every zerg has necros, usually scourge but reapers are used too, and Heralds. These are the meta builds for zerging. You will never have a viable zerg without these classes, so there absolutely is a cohesive composition to zerg building. Just because WvW has access to every stat doesn't mean every stat gets used, and certain classes have either extremely limited or no roles to fill in a zerg to justify anything but a pug slot.

One of the best changes they could have made. Now if only we could do something else about the warclaw...

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said: > Ghost Trapper thief > **Only took a raid boss kill to get nerf within 24hrs. I abused this build and still feel the angry shouts of my victims in my sleep. I made a human specifically to use the Grenth racial skill because it had no physical damage proc to reveal.

The original Revenant. 2 second CD on CoR, each of the 3 damage areas could hit 5 targets so it hit 15 people, Cruel Repurcussuon doing 50% more damage if one of those 15 were blocked. Results = Some unlucky soul ate a 30k+ attack and just ceased to exist. Precision Strike tracked stealth. 600 range Unrelenting Assault that hit 7 times, and when it was reduced to 5 hits the confusion bug happened where it made confusion tick 6 times as if you hit 6 skills every time you used it. No CD, 20 energy Phase Traversal. 50 endurance regen Riposting Shadows. No lost dagger charges on Shiro heal attacks missing. Reviving someone made them/you get Infuse Light. SotM could almost 1 shot someone on the perfect setup. Equilibrium existed. Ventari healing for 14k with Natural Harmony. Stacking 30 seconds of resistance with out of combat Fast Swap Mallyx Pain Absorption spam. Good times.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > Hypothetical here. What would a balanced meta support look like? > > Have we even taken the time to consider the end goal of these nerfs we'd like to achieve? I've heard vague statements like "Make the game more like core days, but what does that mean? Do we want every class to be a generalist? Do we want more build variety? > > What meta class which has existed in the history of guild wars 2 has been considered good and healthy for the game? > > I ask these things because I honestly do not see an issue with Heal Spellbreaker from a balance perspective. It does its job. It has tools to keep itself alive, and it has good utility and CC. In exchange it has very little pressure of its own and relies heavily on it's teamates to carry in terms of damage. > > It fulfills the archetype of beefy frontline who empowers allies. It has the typical pros and cons that come with it. _ > > When a build becomes meta, we don't engage in any constructive discussion about said build. We read off the bullet points and say "X is a tanky support class, therefore **by definition** it supports a lot and it doesn't die when you hit it. It should be nerfed because it supports a lot and it does not die when you hit it". > > Why Hspb **feels** broken in this context is because other classes which may try to take up this mantle have been nerfed to the point where they can no longer do so and be effective. > > Firebrand had its boons and self sustain neutered to the point where it can no longer empower nor be durable > Scrapper had it's sustain and tankiness neutered to the point where it can no longer fill the role of tanky support > Druid recieved several harsh nerfs which neutered it's ability to support its allies at all. > > We're comparing Spellbreaker to other builds of the same archetype which can no longer fill that role. Of course it's going to look broken by comparison, but at what point do we take a step back and ask: > > "Is spellbreaker too strong or is everything else too weak"? The biggest tragedy of all; Ventari is forgotten once more. ?

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > I'd rather have Arenanet disable finishing during Elixir S. > > When nothing in the game can interact with you during Elixir S, you should not be able to interact with anything either. > I cant CC anyone with stability either so all their own CC skills should be blocked while they have stability. Last time I checked, you aren't immune to literally everything in the game when you have stability.

> @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > I swear to god they better not touch Shoutbreaker in WvW because of sPvP complaints. > > WvW deserves nothing because it's a confused aberration which rejects any elements of team composition balance or stat restrictions. Rejects elements of team composition? What are you talking about? Zergs have specific things they want, much to the whining of rangers and thieves that want to zerg while offering nothing or next to nothing to justify their spot. Shoutbreaker is very strong in WvW and started there much earlier than it even thought of coming to sPvP.

> @"Czerny.6530" said: > You can just stealth the downed person so they can't get stomped during Elixir S You mean the 5 classes that have access to stealth? Or the 3 that can stealth others?

> @"Quadox.7834" said: > i swear 99% of the warriors who defend healbreaker dont even play it because truth is nobody wants to play this boring sleepy kitten build I play shoutbreaker in both sPvP and WvW. It's actually a lot of fun. The warriors that don't like it are probably just not wanting the only meta build for warrior destroyed again.

I swear to god they better not touch Shoutbreaker in WvW because of sPvP complaints.

> @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > You know you are in a rev-complaint thread made by someone who doesn't actually know how to play rev when the major complaint is, of all things, "MUH TWO HEALSZ!!11oneone!11". > > > > Bruh. Go and actually read those heal skills. The actual slot-heals on rev mostly just inferior versions of heals on other classes on longer cooldowns. For instance, Soothing Stone is an inferior version of Warriors mending with less healing and a longer cooldown in addition to costing energy. Mallyx heal is a bad version of consume conditions. etc. That is why Rev has two heals. It's just part of the profession mechanic of having two sets of utilities, balanced out by having them be worse versions of skills that already existed before HoT was released. > > > > The actual things making Rev strong right now are: > > 1. Vindication is OP > > 2. Quickness in PvP is OP, and this is a bigger problem on Rev than most other classes. > > 3. The base lifesteal numbers on Ofela could be toned down from 328 to 228-ish > > 4. Inspiring reinforcement should be reverted back to 1.5 seconds of stability ( Was buffed to 3 seconds October 01, 2019 ) > > > > > > Uhmmm they are worst than other heals by design. Its becuase they have acess to 2 heals at anytime unlike those other heals you mention where the class can only have 1. That's the trade-off. They get two but they're always inferior versions of other heals. Should they only get 1 at a time while having worse versions?

> @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > If you think a class is overpowered, how about instead of hopping on the nerf train we have a calm and collected discussion on how to buff the other classes to have at least 1 build on par? :) > Asking for BUFFs or reworks backfires terribly and it ends up in PVE specks cause Arenanet doesn't give a kitten about PVP usually. Case and point Berserker. > Berserker was fun for a while before they declawed it.

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > @"Exedore.6320" said: > > The bigger problem is Monk's focus which is too stacked and inflates the base healing value of Litany of Wrath. > > Sure...let's gut the last trait where healing actually SCALES. Do you want this trait to receive Mantra of Solace treatment? The base heal has been already nerfed. Enough. Didn't they tell you? You're only allowed to run Mantra of Solace with Pure of Heart.

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > .25 second immunity to all cc from a soft cc, .5s immunity from a hard cc. > > Global rule that way anet doesnt have to spend their interns time micromanaging every cc skill. This would absolutely destroy warrior even more. A thief tapping someone with Headshot before a warrior uses Bulls Charge would be handing them free stab. Either this concept is useless and does nothing because the effect is too short, or it's too strong and CCing someone is as wasted as if they had stab. It's already too easy to ruin CC chains by overriding longer CC with shorter or weaker after it lands, this would make it useless before it even lands.

> @"snoow.1694" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > People still play Core Rev?????? Shao! What shenanigans are you pulling?????? > > Not only are they, but I already had ranked matches against Top 20 guys in high Plat using Core Rev last season in EU Okay, so in what ways does this justify nerfing legend heals? You realize that Rev has never had any way of reducing the CD of their heals besides alacrity, right? Every heal is 30 second CD and most are situational. Can't do damage? Shiro will barely heal you. People stop attacking you during Glint heal? Barely heals you. Aren't running Corruption? Poison neuters Mallyx's heal even though it's supposed to be boosted by condi. Ventari? LOL. The only truly consistent ones are Jalis and Kalla, and unsurprisingly they can make you pretty bulky when put together because they actually work without hinderance, but all of them are 30 seconds, no exceptions. This is the only situation where double heals could be an issue but Jalis/Kalla still gets dumpstered by condi. Perma weakness from DBT is what needs to be addressed on this build, not healing. Nobody runs shield except condi revs, staff barely heals anymore, Battle Scars is trickle healing and cuts into damage too much, nobody runs the regen trait in Herald. There are ways of getting smaller heals but they're just that, small heals that are only effective in drawn out fights.

People still play Core Rev?????? Shao! What shenanigans are you pulling??????

> @"wevh.2903" said: > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > Warrior buildcraft is bad cause it needs Discipline to function so, you only get to pick 2 traitlines, 2 of which are total garbage arms and defense. Arms doesn't kitten know what it wants to be and has a kitten dead grandmasters Dual wield, defense has been overnerfed, the mid row is pointless 300 cd trait, a weapon trait that just happens to be missed in the weapon traits rework and only functions for the bar mace skills and not the burst so you get 0.2 daze buff to your skill 3 if you carry one mace WOW, the best trait in the row is that one that gives power from toughness around 100 power to be exact, i don't think it deserves to be even a solo trait by looking other classes almost forgot the minor that gives reduce damage taken if you have retaliation bonus points for being the only thing that gives retaliation on warrior. The balanced stance x stances trait that has 300 cd and buffs stances duration by 20% sounds OP it buffs things by less then a second, the adrenalin management from Cleansing Ire should come from the trait line not from the condi cleanse grandmaster. > > I can't even explain what a mess berserker is, who in their right mind decided it was a good idea to make it a one shot elite speck and the whole traitline doesn't function outside its main mechanic, why are they making a degenerate gameplay by design one shots are not fun for anyone. Before Berserker was a beafy boy with nice enough sustain and medium damage but noo that is too hard for the spammers to play against, dodging telegraphed attacks is hard. > > Warrior as a whole is a botched job of reworks and nerfs that didn't follow through, this is for most classes but it is most noticeable on warrior cause it ain't got any synergy within its builds, and for all the whiny kitten out there, this would happen to your classes also in time. > > Aalmos> @"Vancho.8750" said: > > Warrior buildcraft is bad cause it needs Discipline to function so, you only get to pick 2 traitlines, 2 of which are total garbage arms and defense. Arms doesn't kitten know what it wants to be and has a kitten dead grandmasters Dual wield, defense has been overnerfed, the mid row is pointless 300 cd trait, a weapon trait that just happens to be missed in the weapon traits rework and only functions for the bar mace skills and not the burst so you get 0.2 daze buff to your skill 3 if you carry one mace WOW, the best trait in the row is that one that gives power from toughness around 100 power to be exact, i don't think it deserves to be even a solo trait by looking other classes almost forgot the minor that gives reduce damage taken if you have retaliation bonus points for being the only thing that gives retaliation on warrior. The balanced stance x stances trait that has 300 cd and buffs stances duration by 20% sounds OP it buffs things by less then a second, the adrenalin management from Cleansing Ire should come from the trait line not from the condi cleanse grandmaster. > > I can't even explain what a mess berserker is, who in their right mind decided it was a good idea to make it a one shot elite speck and the whole traitline doesn't function outside its main mechanic, why are they making a degenerate gameplay by design one shots are not fun for anyone. Before Berserker was a beafy boy with nice enough sustain and medium damage but noo that is too hard for the spammers to play against, dodging telegraphed attacks is hard. > > Warrior as a whole is a botched job of reworks and nerfs that didn't follow through, this is for most classes but it is most noticeable on warrior cause it ain't got any synergy within its builds, and for all the whiny kitten out there, this would happen to your classes also in time. > > > There is lot of classes binded to a traitline , thief to trickery , rangers to survivality, mesmers used to be to duels ,etc This is true but doesn't make it any better. Class mechanic traitlines are usually loaded with traits that are way too good to pass up on any build. It doesn't help if two of your other traitlines are straight garbage and offer no actual alternatives to warrant losing something like Discipline or Trickery.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > what other skills? > > > > > this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value > > > > > > > > Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho. > > > > > > exactly my point? > > > 30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference > > > 30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference > > > more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd. > > > untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh > > > > > > edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s > > > the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Flesh_Wurm > > > > If we're talking about stunbreaks creating distance on more or less the same CD untraited, while being basically the "same" CD if traited; if we're talking about CD then there are several others stunbreaks in the same CD category > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stomp > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Judgment > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Air > > we are talking about stun removing tools that dodge, the only things close that come to mid as I said are sand through glass ( mechanically unsound skill ) > roll for ini ( 50s cd vs 30s cd ) twist of fate ( 75s vs 30s ), riposting shadows ( 40 energy vs 30s ) > and those skills are much harder to trait, you gave example of blink, I have to shoot myself in the foot by taking chaos to trait this thing, so in reality it has 35s cd vs 24s off LR. > you also kind of have bandits defence? but it doesnt move your character. LR is just hands down the best in its category Not only is it the best in category but the primary complaint about it being stopped by passive CC is literally 2 things; shocking aura and static shield. Hardly anything to justify removing the damage for.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Tanbin.2436" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what other skills? > > > > > > > > > > > > this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly my point? > > > > > > > > > > 30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference > > > > > > > > > > 30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference > > > > > > > > > > more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd. > > > > > > > > > > untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s > > > > > > > > > > the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point bud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill. > > > > > > > > > > You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty. > > > > > > > > > > Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you. > > > > > > > > > > That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it. > > > > > > > > > > No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger. > > > > > > > > If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it. > > > > > > > > You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. > > > > > > This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so. > > > > > > Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills. This doesn't mean it isn't acknowledged. > > > > > > The crying "my skill does it too, what about mine so you shouldn't be able to change it and i shouldn't be left out too" never really solves anything and instead just makes you look like a baby in the middle of people trying to have an actual conversation on getting something productive done on either side of it getting changed or not changed. > > > > > > It really just negates any kind of productivity that could be accomplished and turns it into more of a personal thing rather than an objective goal. This happens a lot in the forums, people put their bias against a class that may or may not be op or may or may not have op abilities and try to break down a proposal based on personal grudges with the class. For the most part this is fine because conversation usually results in nothing anyway, because they don't balance around people in the PVP forums. They balance around casual performance and people in the PVE forums. > > > > > > Back to the actual topic, the reality is that LR is a meta pick no matter the build. You essentially need it, whether it's broken (broken != the only option, it happens to be really good but it also happens to be the only pick available for general build structure) or not negates the actual issue being presented in the thread but people get too blinded by something being busted they don't stop and entertain even the slightest open-mindedness regarding change. > > > > We use other skills with similar functions to determine if one is overperforming both in the design on its face and against other skills in the same category. > > > > This isn't a conversation about needed change or terrible function that's holding a skill back from being a meta pick or even used at all, it's the OP unable to deal with the intended drawbacks of LR and asking for it to be removed while completely ignoring the strengths of it. > > Would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words into my mouth. I said nothing like that. Reread my OP post to see what I said, that this thread discussion was about. > > Thanks. > > > Again, LR is the superior version of all the skills that work the same way, both in function and cooldown > > That is an opinion that is negligent vs. the discussion, which is about an unnecessary mechanic tied to a skill that serves no purpose other than to cancel its usage. No other skill like it has such a drawback. It is clearly an unintended mechanic. > > > we're saying other skills do it too when the OP tries to use those similar functions as a baseline for change when others function the same way with no hinderance. > > **But they don't function the same way** because things like Roll For Initiative or Withdraw or ect ect, do not have random tiny damage attached to them which creates reveal and procs passive CCs. Get your mechanics straight before making arguments. > > > Again, if you use LR and it sends you off a cliff, it's your problem for poor positioning; same applies to RFI, RS, and Withdrawal. Nothing special about any of them, they're working as intended. > > No one said anything about poorly aiming LR and going off a cliff. That is something you said. This thread is solely discussing the damage proc on LR and the issues that the damage proc creates. You should reread the OP post and try to help keep things on topic. > > > There is no issue being presented. > > Reread the OP post to see the issue that is being presented. It is very finely outlined in the OP post. Lightning Reflexes is the only skill of its type to possess this problem. > > > The skill is working as intended and the OP doesn't like the intended use. > > Are you sure about that? That's up to Arenanet to decide, not you. It could be working as intended and I've already stated this. Maybe they want it to have that drawback. But judging from how it is the only skill of its type of possess such a drawback on what is supposed to be a disengage skill, I would put my money on it being an unintended mechanic. > > But regardless, you need to relax a bit. Making discussion is a great but there really isn't a reason to take things into a place of misinformation. > > > Either use another skill or get over it > > Nah, I'll continue to advocate that the damage proc is an unnecessary mechanic that needs to be removed, right along with all of the Ranger players who have already made the same statement, and all of the ones to come who will make the same statement as the years go on. tyvm. > > On mobile so I'll keep this short. LR has damage tied to it, ***it's in the skill description*** so it's pretty safe to say Anet intended for it to do damage and have every consequence for it. Literally 2 effects/skills stun you during use so just don't use them when those things are active. Stop making a mountain out of a mole hill. You can advocate all you want, but it's working as intended and your just beating a dead tree. I'll say again, repeatedly citing Flashbang as a problem in relation to LR just shows you've got no idea what you're talking about. L2P or use another skill.

> @"Tanbin.2436" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what other skills? > > > > > > > > > > this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly my point? > > > > > > > > 30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference > > > > > > > > 30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference > > > > > > > > more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd. > > > > > > > > untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s > > > > > > > > the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point bud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue. > > > > > > > > > > It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post. > > > > > > > > > > And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker. > > > > > > > > > > This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me. > > > > > > > > You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill. > > > > > > You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty. > > > > > > Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you. > > > > > > That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes. > > > > > > > > > > > Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it. > > > > > > No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience. > > > > > > > > > > Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger. > > > > If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it. > > > > You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. > > This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so. > > Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills. This doesn't mean it isn't acknowledged. > > The crying "my skill does it too, what about mine so you shouldn't be able to change it and i shouldn't be left out too" never really solves anything and instead just makes you look like a baby in the middle of people trying to have an actual conversation on getting something productive done on either side of it getting changed or not changed. > > It really just negates any kind of productivity that could be accomplished and turns it into more of a personal thing rather than an objective goal. This happens a lot in the forums, people put their bias against a class that may or may not be op or may or may not have op abilities and try to break down a proposal based on personal grudges with the class. For the most part this is fine because conversation usually results in nothing anyway, because they don't balance around people in the PVP forums. They balance around casual performance and people in the PVE forums. > > Back to the actual topic, the reality is that LR is a meta pick no matter the build. You essentially need it, whether it's broken (broken != the only option, it happens to be really good but it also happens to be the only pick available for general build structure) or not negates the actual issue being presented in the thread but people get too blinded by something being busted they don't stop and entertain even the slightest open-mindedness regarding change. We use other skills with similar functions to determine if one is overperforming both in the design on its face and against other skills in the same category. This isn't a conversation about needed change or terrible function that's holding a skill back from being a meta pick or even used at all, it's the OP unable to deal with the intended drawbacks of LR and asking for it to be removed while completely ignoring the strengths of it. Again, LR is the superior version of all the skills that work the same way, both in function and cooldown, so nobody is going 'My skill does it too' to try to keep LR from being changed, we're saying other skills do it too when the OP tries to use those similar functions as a baseline for change when others function the same way with no hinderance. Again, if you use LR and it sends you off a cliff, it's your problem for poor positioning; same applies to RFI, RS, and Withdrawal. Nothing special about any of them, they're working as intended. There is no issue being presented. The skill is working as intended and the OP doesn't like the intended use. Either use another skill or get over it, the damage portion is there while others don't because it's on a much shorter CD and gives Vigor and cleanses when traited with added Fury on a 24 second CD. The balance here is that you have a small damaging attack tied to it. L2P or stop using it.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what other skills? > > > > > > > > this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho. > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly my point? > > > > > > 30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference > > > > > > 30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference > > > > > > more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd. > > > > > > untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh > > > > > > > > > > > > edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s > > > > > > the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point bud. > > > > > > > > > > We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed. > > > > > > > > > > To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached. > > > > > > > > The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue. > > > > > > It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post. > > > > > > And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker. > > > > > > This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me. > > > > You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill. > > You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty. > > Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger. > > > > > Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you. > > That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes. > > > > > Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it. > > No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience. > > Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger. If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it. You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah no, don't touch LoW. It's a very nice contrast to Shelter and encourages getting aggressive in exchange for your healing being dependent on damage. It has clear counterplay that doesn't involve having to stop all fighting to counter like Infuse Light.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > what other skills? > > > > > > this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value > > > > > > > > > > Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho. > > > > > > > > exactly my point? > > > > 30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference > > > > 30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference > > > > more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd. > > > > untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh > > > > > > > > edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s > > > > the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say > > > > > > You're missing the point bud. > > > > > > We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed. > > > > > > To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached. > > > > The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue. > > It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post. > > And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker. > > This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me. Flashbang doesn't CC you on hitting the engi, it CCs you on the engi hitting you and it's at 90% health or higher. You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill. Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you. Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.