ButcherofMalakir.4067

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> Because raiders are uncreative, net-decking slaves to an imaginary "meta".

First part is true but meta is certainly not imaginary :D

> @"wefal.8426" said:

> I thought Arena Net didnt want to have dedicated roles such as tank/healer.

> Yet we see this clearly in raids and in fractals.

>

> In raids, almost every group will ask for chrono tank, chrono supp, druid healer, warrior banners. You only have 6 flex spots.

> In fractals, almost all groups ask for firebrigade. Only 3 flex spots.

>

> I remember years ago before GW2 launched, Arena Net spoke about how they want to step away from dedicated roles, meaning everyone can play whatever roles they want.

>

> Either my memory serves me wrong or Arena Net made dedicated roles.

They wanted to step away from holy trinity (dps, heal and tank) and they did.

In raids, there is a tank spot and heal spot but those are not roles. They are filled by some class that is already taken for something else.

We have 2 roles in raids. Dps and support. Support provide boons and buffs. If you need something specific for the fight (such as heals or tanking) it is better to let supports do it so dpses dont lose that much damage.

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Kashrlyyk.5364" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

> > > >

> > > > Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

> > >

> > > 39 to 33 is only 18% more.

> > > How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

> >

> > 18 percent is huge.

> > And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

> >

> > Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

>

> That's not how it works. DPS builds dont have constant dps all the time, the dps is spread out on big bursts and dps drops. 2 weaver builds that were spread out by only a few seconds had huge dps difference because one rotation finished at it's lowest drop while other one was in the middle of it's burst. 4 mil golem doesnt give you a realistic picture about general dps, it just serves as a standard because all dps builds can be tested under same conditions.

Yes, you are right. It is not the same diference as I wrote. To be fair I dont play weaver (or dps) and I dont know if those builds ended on burst or not so I used a statistical method. I made an assumption that those benchmarks end not right after burst and not right before burst.

And If you look at the MO video, that weaver is still first in dps.

I still stand by the fact that 18 percent more DPS is huge diference.

So to sumarise this conversation

Eles should do huge damage because it is squishy -> ele does

Core ele should do huge damage -> not the best but still decent numbers

The best ele builds are complicated for their advantage -> If a build has more skills then others and still only need to use a few to be at same dps then something is wrong.

Full berserker gear is not playable -> I play it

Ele is squisy -> most enemies die before they touch him.

Hope I havent forgot anything

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"rchristianhk.3914" said:

> > 100+ slots filled with ascendent chests.

> These should just stack.

> Do they require to type in a message when deleting them?

> With that much ascended gear, you don't need the legendary armour though.

>

Non raiders dont need it either.

For example aurora is only for ow players.

Raids provide unique skins, what is the reward when you have all of them?

On the other hand you can farm silverwastes and get 30 gold each hour without any skill required.

> @"Kashrlyyk.5364" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

> >

> > Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

> >

> >

> > And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

>

> 39 to 33 is only 18% more.

> How much more complicated or harder is the Condition Weaver rotation compared to one of the Power Soulbeast? And how much more squishy is the Condition Weaver compared to the Power Soulbeast?

18 percent is huge.

And yes, you get more dps because it is harder to play. Is there a problem with this?

Lets say that a fight takes 3 minutes. Then that weaver deals 1080000 more damage.

Already send them some posts ago but just a number might not be enough so here are videos.

And just to be clear, all those videos are done only with boons and buffs that you actualy have in raid. Last ones are from LN, they dont use consumables in these videos but instead more buffs so the numbers should be similar.

Here is an actual boss kill. Just check if those boons ever drop if you dont belive me

And it is true that ele is a glass cannon. You can do huge damage but you also die quickly. In my opinion, going full damage is the way to go since there are more balanced classes that combine defense and damage. If you take more defense on ele, then something else will be better. I think that ele should go all in on the thing he does best, damage.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > @"Aigleborgne.2981" said:

> > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > > yeah.. but you lose one spec line when you do that

> > > >

> > > > Seriously man, you need to look closer and think about it.

> > > > Yes, there are some traits that gives some benefits (or more) when you are attuned to one element. But if you look closer, those benefits are generally stronger than other professions.

> > > > Let's take Empowering Flame (minor adept in fire): +150 power when attuned to fire. Can you give me another profession with such a strong bonus in minor adept ?

> > > > Then, all minor master are spells cast on attunments and they are great.

> > > >

> > > > Now, there is bit of contradiction between fire and air attunments (you choose either ferocity, either power) but it got improved with last patch (you now gain more benefits in fire). And unless you are using conjures, best damage skills are in fire anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Last, imagine those bonus would stay all the time, it would be OP and these traits would be nerfed.

> > > > Ele gameplay is driven by its attunment, it's all about attuning on the right moment.

> > >

> > >

> > > ele gameplay is about being a half class all the time, so what's the point of having 150 power at minor adept if the skills scale at 0,1 ratio? any class can outdps a elementalist even a guardian, elementalist meteor that is supposed to be the highest dmg have random hits and low damage with a huge cast time

> > > then if i choose fire to spec and i change to earth i lose all my specs what is the point of having "the kit"?

> > >

> > > now we can look at other classes they just have 10% dmg/good buffs... at minor adept and this work with any skill

> >

> > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > Looks like ele is doing well in dps compared to the rest :D

>

> Did you check latest Elitist raid tournament or any raid run lately?...weaver is not even used anylonger, barely seeing tempest on a single boss, rest of the times is stacked dragon hunters and chronos.....

>

> I mean did you actually check properly the website you're trying to use? ...**just look at recommended comps for each boss...do you see a single ele anywhere?**

I raid every single day and I watched ERP3. Yes, ele wasnt used but that wasnt because ele has no damage. I provided evidence that ele Is at the top of dps. Reason why ele is not recomended is that DH/FB is very close but you can play one more DPS with them.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > Also a year old video. Should be slightly weaker now but still.

> > > >

> > >

> > > that means nothing, first the ele is full buffed with all things possible plus static enemy, then he is on zerk build, im talking about real situations here, if someone go as ele full zerk he would die in 2 hits for any enemy even at trash mobs, then idk how he get so many hits from meteor, meteor do 2 hits every 3 sec for 3k dmg with crits in real situation, also enemies will move out of the range.

> > > any class fullbuffed will do the same dps plus tank at same time.

> >

> > This is a real situation

> > And for example scourge will get lower dps

> >

> > Also I am playing full zerker everywhere and if you dont get hit, then you dont die. Everything outside raids dies before it hit me and in raids, those are standard boons you have all the time.

>

> this isn't, this is a raid situation only, any class will do that kind of dps with all those buffs and debuffs, do a video with only the elemental power then we can talk

No, nscourge will do 28 max for example

Edit: also, classes are balanced around raid dps and not openworld dps. In openworld 1 or 2 skills kill every mob. I domt know what more dk you want. Ele is squishier but can kill multiple mobs with 1 skill. Usualy mobswont have time to hit you back.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Also a year old video. Should be slightly weaker now but still.

> >

>

> that means nothing, first the ele is full buffed with all things possible plus static enemy, then he is on zerk build, im talking about real situations here, if someone go as ele full zerk he would die in 2 hits for any enemy even at trash mobs, then idk how he get so many hits from meteor, meteor do 2 hits every 3 sec for 3k dmg with crits in real situation, also enemies will move out of the range.

> any class fullbuffed will do the same dps plus tank at same time.

This is a real situation

And for example scourge will get lower dps

Also I am playing full zerker everywhere and if you dont get hit, then you dont die. Everything outside raids dies before it hit me and in raids, those are standard boons you have all the time.

Also a year old video. Should be slightly weaker now but still.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Aigleborgne.2981" said:

> > Last, imagine those bonus would stay all the time, it would be OP and these traits would be nerfed.

> In the original GW2 design, Elementalists were supposed to be "OP" in exchange for being the squishiest class in existence.

>

> On the GW2 page for the Elementalist, it even says "What they lack in physical toughness, they make up for in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage."

> Where is this "massive damage"? Even if all traits always were active, Elementalist would still be inferior to things like Scourge and Mirage.

And I dont know where you get the idea that scourge and mirage have huge damage. Mirage in certain situations but scourge never

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > Looks like ele is doing well in dps compared to the rest :D

>

> Now if we had some that's fun to play AND effective at the same time, instead of just Weaver and stale air.

>

So problem isnt that there is no playable ele build but that bad ele builds are not playable.

Hmmmm

Check ERP2. On wing 3 one guild (think snowcrows) used core dps ele. It wasnt as good as weaver/tempest but they chose it over other dpses for ban strategy.

Thing it was staff fire,air,water or fire/arcane/water. Not sure

Edit: and in my opinion fresh air and weavers are most fun builds ele have. Others are just too.... slow with no tricks

Try knight of the thorn storyline/achievment. There is a free top tier scepter/sword/greatsword/dagger/shield as a reward.cost almost nothing.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"Aigleborgne.2981" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > yeah.. but you lose one spec line when you do that

> >

> > Seriously man, you need to look closer and think about it.

> > Yes, there are some traits that gives some benefits (or more) when you are attuned to one element. But if you look closer, those benefits are generally stronger than other professions.

> > Let's take Empowering Flame (minor adept in fire): +150 power when attuned to fire. Can you give me another profession with such a strong bonus in minor adept ?

> > Then, all minor master are spells cast on attunments and they are great.

> >

> > Now, there is bit of contradiction between fire and air attunments (you choose either ferocity, either power) but it got improved with last patch (you now gain more benefits in fire). And unless you are using conjures, best damage skills are in fire anyway.

> >

> > Last, imagine those bonus would stay all the time, it would be OP and these traits would be nerfed.

> > Ele gameplay is driven by its attunment, it's all about attuning on the right moment.

>

>

> ele gameplay is about being a half class all the time, so what's the point of having 150 power at minor adept if the skills scale at 0,1 ratio? any class can outdps a elementalist even a guardian, elementalist meteor that is supposed to be the highest dmg have random hits and low damage with a huge cast time

> then if i choose fire to spec and i change to earth i lose all my specs what is the point of having "the kit"?

>

> now we can look at other classes they just have 10% dmg/good buffs... at minor adept and this work with any skill

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Looks like ele is doing well in dps compared to the rest :D

I have to say I have no Idea what is the problem. There are almost no traits that work only in specific atunement. With only 2 atunements you have same number of skills as a ckass with weaponswap. Ele is one of the best dps options, both for single target and cleave. If there is a bad class then it is not ele in my opinion.

Pets are not the same. Each has diferent ?F2? ability

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > As someone that has played both healers in raids and fotm, I'll toss in my 2 cents.

> > >

> > > > @"wefal.8426" said:

> > > > Druid is basically spirit slave.

> > > > 1) Unreliable spirits that can die and need to constantly move around the map.

> > > > 2) Unreliable healing. Staff 1? Make sure you're behind your teammates.

> > > > Staff 2? Slow heal. IF it passes through allies.

> > > > With all honesty I dont understand why Druid is so revered compared to other just as good if not better heal/support specs.

> > >

> > > 1) The spirit change made spirits extra reliable (actual up time in the DPS meters were higher) if you position them well

> > > 2) If you want to complain about staff 1... those FB mantras are even worst for supplying your important boons. While they have a small radius around you, the cone is what you hit most ppl with. When you have allies that orbit, your boon up time on them suffers a lot.

> > > 3) The one thing about playing Druid that I actually miss is staff 1 and 2 for the consistent heals (1&2) and the 10 target heals (just 2). Aside from that, I agree that FB healing is much better than druid.

> > >

> > > Overall our group has been much happier and have had higher group DPS with 2x FB+ 1 ren. I haven't personally seen anyone praise druid in a while. So I'm not sure what the OP is talking about here. In fact, I've never been cheered at or seen other ppl cheer a druid in raids ever.

> > >

> > > > @"blambidy.3216" said:

> > > > You say that firebrand can do every boon? Technically it can barely pull 25 stacks of might to 5 people, also the quickness for firebrand is only 5 man. Also firebrand doesn't have any offensive buffs. The thing is firebrand won't be alone in support like a druid can. Druid does 25 might + spirits + spotter. Then you can have 1 power/condi quickbrand. 1 divine ren, 1 chrono, bs, dps. As far as main heal, it will be impossible for firebrand to be solo heal unless might can be 10 man, or you have an unusual comp but the comp people won't use or people will not be prepared for it...

> > > > There are other things to note that druid does that you did not note. Pushing in sh, pushing in sam, green 2 kite on dhuum, pushing red seekers. Entangling red seekers, spirit res. which is far easier to do with druid than firebrand, that's if firebrand can do some of these things. Firebrand can push on sam and push couple seekers here and there. But pushing on sh? green kite 2 on dhuum? You will have a hard time with those on firebrand.

> > > > ...Which is great. Firebrand carries people in fractals because of the blocks and aegis it provides. But as far as "speedruns" Druid makes the raids, fractals faster "if" people do not facetank.

> > >

> > > Just because might is applied to 10 players with gotl, doesn't mean druid solo heals/supports 10 ppl. The comp you list requires 4 support spots. Calling Druid solo heal/alone support isn't fair when you have 4 support (I'm not counting BS). 2x FB (tank/off-heal) + 1 ren requires 3 support. It's the comp my groups been using for a while. Even without spirits, our group DPS went up because that extra DPS slot > spirits. Double DPS spirit is also over rated. Comps tend to go full power or full condi. 5% power buff to 7 condi dps is nothing compared to a full extra DPS. Sun spirit is only worth 2k DPS total (not per person but total group) to 10 power DPS if it's 100% up time. Sun spirit is worth it for druid since it has nothing else to bring. 2k DPS doesn't make it worth it to bring a Druid especially since a power or condi SB can easily slot in 1 spirit.

> > >

> > > Despite having 2 druid mains, we quickly adapted to 2 x FB for VG. It's better than Druid. We use shield 5 to push orbs or staff 5 to prevent orbs from hitting the group. No entangle or nature spirit required. Healing is good enough that we usually don't get downed by green. Ppl go down maybe 1-3 times max in an entire fight and that isn't always due to greens but ppl missing blues. Samarag, use axe 3, shield 5 and F1 (3). SH, add a 4th support which is druid. We haven't done dhuum in a while due to time constraints but same as SH, just add a 4th support. So there are only two fights were druid is "better" than FB from my personal experience but it's used as a 4th slot not a replacement for FB.

> > >

> > > Also, I don't get how you can claim that "speedruns" are better with Druid and ppl not face tanking. Actual speed runs have your DPS go full DPS and not dodge because of aegis/stab (or the old mesmer distortion share). Dodging, especially to cancel a big DPS skill is a DPS loss. Aegis is the biggest utility FB brings.

> > >

> > > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > Druid is just plain out bad right now. It's not even overrated it's just outdated and needs a decent rework.

> > >

> > > Agreed. I think what bothers me is that when you look at group comps in general, it's either Chrono/Druid or FB/Ren or 1 of each. However, it's never that you want the Druid. It's just that if you bring chrono, druid just vestigially fits in their.

> >

> > I agree that in your comp, druid is bad. That beeing said some encounters are better with minimum 1 chrono and that means druid is required.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Oh absolutely. That's why I wrote the last two sentences in my post. When you need chrono, druid is there to fill in the gaps that chrono lacks. It's not that druid is great.

Its the problem of ranger. Unique modifiers are way too good and ranger+druid used to have alot of them. But since the removal of glyph of empowerment, there is only sun/frost spirit left (and spotter) and thankfuly soulbeast cantake them too.

Druid isnt great but it is many avarage things compresed together so it can fill holes in compositions well.

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> As someone that has played both healers in raids and fotm, I'll toss in my 2 cents.

>

> > @"wefal.8426" said:

> > Druid is basically spirit slave.

> > 1) Unreliable spirits that can die and need to constantly move around the map.

> > 2) Unreliable healing. Staff 1? Make sure you're behind your teammates.

> > Staff 2? Slow heal. IF it passes through allies.

> > With all honesty I dont understand why Druid is so revered compared to other just as good if not better heal/support specs.

>

> 1) The spirit change made spirits extra reliable (actual up time in the DPS meters were higher) if you position them well

> 2) If you want to complain about staff 1... those FB mantras are even worst for supplying your important boons. While they have a small radius around you, the cone is what you hit most ppl with. When you have allies that orbit, your boon up time on them suffers a lot.

> 3) The one thing about playing Druid that I actually miss is staff 1 and 2 for the consistent heals (1&2) and the 10 target heals (just 2). Aside from that, I agree that FB healing is much better than druid.

>

> Overall our group has been much happier and have had higher group DPS with 2x FB+ 1 ren. I haven't personally seen anyone praise druid in a while. So I'm not sure what the OP is talking about here. In fact, I've never been cheered at or seen other ppl cheer a druid in raids ever.

>

> > @"blambidy.3216" said:

> > You say that firebrand can do every boon? Technically it can barely pull 25 stacks of might to 5 people, also the quickness for firebrand is only 5 man. Also firebrand doesn't have any offensive buffs. The thing is firebrand won't be alone in support like a druid can. Druid does 25 might + spirits + spotter. Then you can have 1 power/condi quickbrand. 1 divine ren, 1 chrono, bs, dps. As far as main heal, it will be impossible for firebrand to be solo heal unless might can be 10 man, or you have an unusual comp but the comp people won't use or people will not be prepared for it...

> > There are other things to note that druid does that you did not note. Pushing in sh, pushing in sam, green 2 kite on dhuum, pushing red seekers. Entangling red seekers, spirit res. which is far easier to do with druid than firebrand, that's if firebrand can do some of these things. Firebrand can push on sam and push couple seekers here and there. But pushing on sh? green kite 2 on dhuum? You will have a hard time with those on firebrand.

> > ...Which is great. Firebrand carries people in fractals because of the blocks and aegis it provides. But as far as "speedruns" Druid makes the raids, fractals faster "if" people do not facetank.

>

> Just because might is applied to 10 players with gotl, doesn't mean druid solo heals/supports 10 ppl. The comp you list requires 4 support spots. Calling Druid solo heal/alone support isn't fair when you have 4 support (I'm not counting BS). 2x FB (tank/off-heal) + 1 ren requires 3 support. It's the comp my groups been using for a while. Even without spirits, our group DPS went up because that extra DPS slot > spirits. Double DPS spirit is also over rated. Comps tend to go full power or full condi. 5% power buff to 7 condi dps is nothing compared to a full extra DPS. Sun spirit is only worth 2k DPS total (not per person but total group) to 10 power DPS if it's 100% up time. Sun spirit is worth it for druid since it has nothing else to bring. 2k DPS doesn't make it worth it to bring a Druid especially since a power or condi SB can easily slot in 1 spirit.

>

> Despite having 2 druid mains, we quickly adapted to 2 x FB for VG. It's better than Druid. We use shield 5 to push orbs or staff 5 to prevent orbs from hitting the group. No entangle or nature spirit required. Healing is good enough that we usually don't get downed by green. Ppl go down maybe 1-3 times max in an entire fight and that isn't always due to greens but ppl missing blues. Samarag, use axe 3, shield 5 and F1 (3). SH, add a 4th support which is druid. We haven't done dhuum in a while due to time constraints but same as SH, just add a 4th support. So there are only two fights were druid is "better" than FB from my personal experience but it's used as a 4th slot not a replacement for FB.

>

> Also, I don't get how you can claim that "speedruns" are better with Druid and ppl not face tanking. Actual speed runs have your DPS go full DPS and not dodge because of aegis/stab (or the old mesmer distortion share). Dodging, especially to cancel a big DPS skill is a DPS loss. Aegis is the biggest utility FB brings.

>

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > Druid is just plain out bad right now. It's not even overrated it's just outdated and needs a decent rework.

>

> Agreed. I think what bothers me is that when you look at group comps in general, it's either Chrono/Druid or FB/Ren or 1 of each. However, it's never that you want the Druid. It's just that if you bring chrono, druid just vestigially fits in their.

I agree that in your comp, druid is bad. That beeing said some encounters are better with minimum 1 chrono and that means druid is required.

> @"bravoart.5308" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > I have very likely lead more training raids and helped more players in this game both improve and get better at raids than you. All you are doing is projecting you own anger and perceived incorrect notions onto an entire part of the players base. Sadly you don't even notice how much prejudice you have which given you have no experiance with the content, says a lot about your character. But yes, it is easier to blame others for ones own shortcommings.

> >

> > So far, thousands of players have successfully started raiding. Some have posted on these forums of how they managed. Most have done so the same way: joined training runs or a training guild and improved from there.

>

> If you're so offended at being talked to as if you're part of the problem, -if you aren't- why can't you recognize I'm not talking about you and move on?

> Ahh yes, because you like making personal attacks on people you disagree with. Definitely not toxic at all.

>

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Yes, and the raid community does this at the correct places, at the correct times and with hopefully most often the correct approach. Tell me, how many players have you helped in this game succeed at content? Besides complaining on the forums.

>

> Well considering the current raiding and fractal setup won't allow me to join, I've spent a majority of my time running support builds around open world, world bosses, answering help calls for hero points and bounties. It's kinda the most I can do without friends, a guild, or supporting raid sellers. I do what I can.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > So you are incapabale of understanding how training runs and guilds work nor are you able to join or find some. Sorry to hear. Worked wonders for many players I've had in my training guilds and runs, or for many who have shared their experiences. Don't blame others for something you can't do, especially when other's have succeeded where you seem to not be able to. Just maybe, this one is on you.

>

> I'm not incapable of understanding, thanks for the personal attack again. Really proving your point that raiders aren't elitist jerks. I've jumped through the hoops, I've waited in discord lobbies, I paid my dues and you're still blaming me. Just because you have a handful of 'success stories' just means there's likely many more people who dropped this stuff like a hot potato and moved on. Just because other people are willing to do your 'my way or the highway' mentality, doesn't mean I'm willing to compromise my morals just to be your raid slave. Everyone deserves to play the content if they wish, not just who raiders allow in. Also by your logic, there must be more people getting constantly screwed by the current system since I'm posting about my terrible relationship with it. Maybe this one is actually on you.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Here is where you are: bottom of the barrel and useless. Get into a training run or guild and start improving. No one else is going to do that for you.

>

> Lookit that! Another personal attack, wow. :3c You really can't help yourself, can you? So rude.

> Yes it's absolutely my fault that I've tried it your way many times and here I am still with no raid experience. Not at all any responsibility of the training guilds letting people fall through the cracks and not doing what they are constantly getting advertised and praised for doing.

>

> But who cares, you're not going to read this and just respond with more lazy personal attacks.

>

>

Maybe he is just tired explaining something over and over. But from the look at your other responses, you are atacking too.

I dont know what to tell you, I started raiding 1,5 years ago at dentis waiting room. At that moment I decided that I want to give raiding a shot, typed "how to start raiding gw2" in google, pressed first entry, joined discord and I was raiding that evening. Took me 5 minutes maximum to find that discord and ask about things I needed.

I thing there is nothing wrong with elitism (If I understand the word correctly)

"Elitist" are not gatekeeping anyone out of raids but out of their squad. I see no problem there.

And I still have to see one argument why fun of 9 players is less important then fun of 1 player.

Ok, then tempest will be added to my list of first healers too. With pack runes on other subsquad, fury should be ok. Thanks for your insight @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652

It still looks like the hardest of those 4 to get uptimes but looks possible

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Blasting fire fields for fury is only If you have fire traitline and only for 5 players. Icebow is huge breakbar boost but you loose some might uptime right? It woundnt likely matter.

> > But you obviously have more knowlage there then me. Can you post a build you would use so we are debating over the aame thing? Thank you

> >

> > Edit: actualy I am not sure about number of targets for blast combos.

>

> While blasting is only for 5, you copy the boons to your allies, which has a 10 target cap.

> You would lose 2 Stacks of Might from Flash Freeze. Not that important.

>

> I can post the build in about 7h. I cant access gw2skills atm.

> The Traits however are:

> **Water**

> 2-2-2 if you need Condition Removal, otherwise

> 2-3-2

> **Tempest**

> 3-1-3 or

> 3-2-3 if you dont want or dont need auras on 10 players.

>

> Now you can choose between Fire (Fury) and Earth (10man Protection and 5 Man Stab)

> **Fire**

> 1-2-1 for extra Condi Cleanse, otherwise

> 1-3-1

>

> **Earth**

> 3-2-doesnt matter

>

> I usually dont run earth, since the protection uptime on my group will always be 100% and the protection on the other group will be good enough and can also be 100% depending on the Chronos.

And what statset? Harrier or magi?

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I was thinking about it and It would be the 4th option. With 1 trait modification (from SC website) you can provide quite high might and uptime on other boons which can be further improved by warhorn. The reason why it is not included is bad fury uptime. With pact runes on chronos It might be enough to just increse the duration but I am not sure. Another reason was that this build has almost 0 cc. I know that I havent wrote it there but you can take cc as form of dps increse. It would be there if I was sure that there is at least very high uptime on fury, and protection on whole squad. I dont play this so I am not sure but If I am wrong, then I would add it. I would love to be wrong, new options are always welcome :D

>

> You give Fury by blasting fire fields.

> CC is 600-900. 150 from Warhorn Air 4 and Water 4, another 300 - 600 from Icebow which you can take on the CC heavy fights. Its lower than Druid but its not that bad.

> With Afterhock you give 5 Seconds of Protection to 10 people, without any boon duration. So you can give up to 10 Seconds from one Skill. Considering that you can extend the protection and that your Chrono(s) will also extend and give some Protection is almost always fine. You can Swap the Fire traitline to earth if you know that fury wont be an issue to guarantee protection on 10 players.

>

> Btw. Might is perma 25. Obviously people need to know how to play this but the same can be said for the other healing classes.

Blasting fire fields for fury is only If you have fire traitline and only for 5 players. Icebow is huge breakbar boost but you loose some might uptime right? It woundnt likely matter.

But you obviously have more knowlage there then me. Can you post a build you would use so we are debating over the aame thing? Thank you

Edit: indeed blasting is only 5

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > To be fair, I think that druid is overrated. It used to be godlike but constant nerfs took it much closer to other options, especialy glyph of empowerment removal.

> >

> > In my mind, there are 2 types of healers. First and second.

> > First healer is there to provide nececary buffs, that is might, fury and protect, to whole squad with decent healing (that is not the main focus)

> > Second healer provides utility, safety and quality of life bonuses.

> > Right now there are 6-8 healers. They are:

> > Druid

> > Herald

> > Renegade

> > Firebrand

> > Scourge

> > Tempest

> > Scraper (dont know anything here)

> > Heal boon thief

> > Out of those, first healers are Druid, healthief and Herald. They are not best heal healers by any mean but they have the boons and buffs. Out of those 3 druid is the most wellrounded, thief is best but work only on few fights and herald is best in not perfect runs. One of my guilds is using heal herald instead of druid with high succes.

> > All of those build can be second healers but I think that those not listed in first category are better. Reason is that all boons are already covered nd other options provide more safety and utility.

> >

> > Each of those builds have some advantage. Major advantage of firebrand is role compresion. You can be quickness bot and healer in hybrid compositions (firebrand, alacrity renegade, chrono, first healer).

> > If you dont use this advantage then I feel like other second healers there (exept renegade, same stuff) are better options because they provide more.

>

> Out of interest, why wouldnt you list Tempest as a first healer?

I was thinking about it and It would be the 4th option. With 1 trait modification (from SC website) you can provide quite high might and uptime on other boons which can be further improved by warhorn. The reason why it is not included is bad fury uptime. With pact runes on chronos It might be enough to just increse the duration but I am not sure. Another reason was that this build has almost 0 cc. I know that I havent wrote it there but you can take cc as form of dps increse. It would be there if I was sure that there is at least very high uptime on fury, and protection on whole squad. I dont play this so I am not sure but If I am wrong, then I would add it. I would love to be wrong, new options are always welcome :D

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Most raid leaders do not require META builds. They want a fraction of META build performance. Those two things are vastly different.

> I can't remember having ever seen a lfg post looking for raid members that doesn't either require META builds or these Li Bi thingies, whatever that is.

>

> > Unfortunately 90% of the player base have no idea how to create a proper build or play that build.

> People usually create builds they (as individuals) can be effective with or just have fun playing with.

> They might not be effective as others, but calling these builds improper is not good.

>

> >Which leads many to copy META builds without understanding them or being able to play them and at the same time leads raid leaders to tell them to play META builds. If people were actually able to create specialized builds for certain content then most of the problems with META classes would not exist.

> This one is on Arenanet though. If balance opened more trait options to be viable for endgame content (for example Core Elementalist traitlines having synergy without playing weaver), people could create builds they (as individuals) can be effective with or just have fun playing with, WHILE being effective.

>

> > Here is my personal approach when I do trainings with new players:

> > - I recommend easy classes so that people can focus on learning the boss mechanics first

> > - I tell people what is required, what is desirable and what is ideal performance wise for encounters

> > - I let people experiment

> That's good, but far, FAR too rare from what I've seen.

>

> But we will see if anything will change with the Strike Missions.

>

>

>

Feelings dont have a spot in math. Calculations make best builds. Those builds are meta. If you create your efective build then it is either close to the meta build or something where feelings were a factor so not the best build you coukd come up with

To be fair, I think that druid is overrated. It used to be godlike but constant nerfs took it much closer to other options, especialy glyph of empowerment removal.

In my mind, there are 2 types of healers. First and second.

First healer is there to provide nececary buffs, that is might, fury and protect, to whole squad with decent healing (that is not the main focus)

Second healer provides utility, safety and quality of life bonuses.

Right now there are 6-8 healers. They are:

Druid

Herald

Renegade

Firebrand

Scourge

Tempest

Scraper (dont know anything here)

Heal boon thief

Out of those, first healers are Druid, healthief and Herald. They are not best heal healers by any mean but they have the boons and buffs. Out of those 3 druid is the most wellrounded, thief is best but work only on few fights and herald is best in not perfect runs. One of my guilds is using heal herald instead of druid with high succes.

All of those build can be second healers but I think that those not listed in first category are better. Reason is that all boons are already covered nd other options provide more safety and utility.

Each of those builds have some advantage. Major advantage of firebrand is role compresion. You can be quickness bot and healer in hybrid compositions (firebrand, alacrity renegade, chrono, first healer).

If you dont use this advantage then I feel like other second healers there (exept renegade, same stuff) are better options because they provide more.