Tails.9372

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> What if it required the two weapon sets from LS4 (astral and dragonsblood)? Probably will require the two(?) backpacks and the armor from Jahai as well.

What if it requires a crystal infusion?

> Parts of this collection require acquisition and mastery of the skyscale mount

T.T

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> A scale with unlimited flight is the default choice of mount for the vast majority of content

And of course you're not giving us any reason as for why it would be "the default choice" nor are you going to attempt to cause deep down you know how nonsensical that notion truly is.

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> Any minor advantages the griffon might have, mean nothing compared to unrestricted flight.

Such as being X times as fast as the skyscale? You do realise that the main purpose of a mount is getting the player from A to B, right? Even unrestricted flight wouldn't change the fact that the skyscale is one of the slowest mounts available meaning that it's going to be a suboptimal choice the vast majority of the time.

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> One mount can fly with no limitations, while the other can't, it's as simple as it reads.

It's almost as if mounts have specific areas they excel in, what a shocking revelation.

OW PvE is (along with the story mode) the most casual part of the game meaning that there is no point in being overly restrictive here. I'm fine with free flight as long as it doesn't mitigate special challenges but these are usually alredy restricting this kind of stuff and it's not like as if you can kill a metaboss by simply circleing above their head. So if you want to get anything done you would have to engage with the content anyways.

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> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> Would you (or someone else who saw it) be willing to summarise what they said about free flight for those of us who didn't watch it?

- if the skyscale had free flight then what's the point in using the other mounts

Which is quite a nonsensical argument to make because going by this logic one could just at well say "there's no point in having the raptor cause the griffon exists" which completely ignores their strengths and weaknesses. The devs are completely ignoring what a skyscale with unlimited flight would actually be used for because they only focus on what it could be used for regardless of whether or not this would be a practical aplication for it.

- unlimited flight, what fun is that?

Another quite nonsensical argument cause fun is subjective and no one would be forced to use it.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> It's pretty obvious what people would do with it which is what my concerns are and why I am against it. Also... it's **not** just about replacing other mounts so don't focus on that as if it's the only thing that I'm saying.

Yes, you also said you can use it to bypass obstacles which are completely irrelevant to anything that matters.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> If you had played on the mount doing map completing, you'd see how easily it is to bypass things with the restrictions. It'd be so much easier without them. It'll ruin any sense of exploration in the maps and make the mobs pointless.

Sure, if unlocking the gray area on the map is all you care about and even then there's always a point in using something more efficient, like what is this? It's as if you are just in denial about this fact so you can bring up this nonsensical "it makes the other mobs pointless" argument. Going by your logic: the springer makes the raptor pointless because you can use it to get pretty much everywhere and speed is apparently not a factor here. But events and achievements don't work like that. Like it or not but you're not getting full map completion by simply circling around the map. Also, if it ruins your sense of exploration then don't use it. Simple as that. Whats next? Do you also want A-Net to go after online guides cause they're a lot worse in this regard.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> As I've said several times, it'll allow you to easily bypass so many things you would not otherwise have been able to.

Mounts in a nutshell.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Using griffon requires you to have height which isn't always easy to achieve. Springer requires easy access to ledges if you want to scale something high.

Which it is for everything that matters, you only have problems if you want to visit places of no significance like the one I previously mentioned. I did 100% map completion and I can't think of a single vista that hasn't been turned into a complete joke by griffon + springer.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> No. That's you putting words into their mouths.

You wish but that's the reasoning they used to wave away this issue during their last devstream.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> It just distracts from the other suggestions that people have which actually have a realistic chance of being added to the game.

None of this has a realistic chance of being added into the game because people don't understand what the skyscale is supposed to be and I don't blame them as the visuals are nothing but false advertisement here.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Free flight would eliminate the need to even use the other mounts. It'll let you bypass pretty much all obstacles whereas other mounts have limitations when it comes to those. Your presence in the game world/map becomes even further removed as you're essentially in the air for the majority of the time. Plus with free flight on the skyscale, it would just be used to gain height for the griffon if you need speed.

You are so focused on "what it could do" that you're completely ignoring "what people would do" with it. It doesn't matter if it removed the "need" to use the other mounts if people are still going to use them regardless simply because they are more efficient for the task at hand the vast majority of the time.

And sure, you could use it to gain height for the griffon in order to circle around Queensdale or something which is a bad thing because? You do realise that every major event has usually a waypoint nearby anyway?

There are only two major uses for unlimited flight on a slow moving mount like the skyscale:

- serching an area for collectables which still has you interact with the enviroment and might lead some people to actually search for the items in question instead of using an online guide

- sightseeing

everything else is more efficiently done by the other mounts. The story would be different if people were asking for level 2 griffon speed on top of free flight or free flight for instanced content but no one is doing that. I really don't see the looming apocalypse you are predicting here.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Anet has their reasons why they didn't give it true flight.

Yes, it pretty much boils down to "free flight, what fun is that?". Which is just a terrible reasoning given how subjective the term "fun" is.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > It's okay that you think it's fine that it would break something

> >

> > Except there's nothing left to break here. Everything worth protecting already restricts mount usage and everything else gets either already steamrolled by the other mounts or was never supposed to be a challenge in the first place.

>

> No, not really. All of the other mounts have limitations as well.

And so has the skyscale: even with free flight you still wouldn't be able to use it for diving, to search areas filled with long ranged attack spam and its speed is to limited to be an effective alternative to the other mounts in regards to getting fast from A to B ~99% of the time. The free flight only beats out the other mounts if you want to reach the top of the Durmand Priory or something but these places are irrelevant when it comes to content progression.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> It's okay that you think it's fine that it would break something

Except there's nothing left to break here. Everything worth protecting already restricts mount usage and everything else gets either already steamrolled by the other mounts or was never supposed to be a challenge in the first place.

> @"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

> I doubt we will ever fight from the current mounts, but a fighting mount seems like a future possibility.

At this point I'd rather see fighting vehicles like a battle golem suit or a submarine then fighting mounts. I feel like mounts should be used for mobility.

P/P - Thief

The problem is that they wanted to make a dragon that "works" similar(ish) to a spider while it should still "feel like a dragon" which makes for a weird dysfunktional mix leading people to have false expectations of what that thing can and cannot do.

So here are some points to note after watching the devstream:

- it was designed to move along walls

- the "wall jump" is supposed to be the "defining aspect of the mount"

- sticking to the wall is cool (??? the constant need to do that is the most anyong part of the whole thing)

Like seriously, they should have gone with the spider mount they initially wanted to make.

Also their reasoning as for why they didn't want to give it free flight is really lacking:

- then you wouldn't need all the other mounts anymore

Like how? Most of the other mounts are still significantly faster or more maneuverable so there would clearly be a trade-off here. The main application of a slow free flying mount (aside from enjoying the view and taking screenshots) would be to search an area for stuff like collectables without using an online guide and not to get from A to B.

- free flight is boring

This one is right out condescension, fun is subjective and no one would be forced to use it. They're not the arbiter of what's fun or not.

It's definitely underwhelming, it's too limited for no good reason and the constant need to holding on to a wall (and the fact that it does it at all) is just an annoying pace breaker. I'd take a griffon without masteries in low gravity over this any day of the week. I wish they would have given us the spider at this point.

It depends, the current price tag is way too high for what the mount actually delivers. I wouldn't mind the high costs if we would actually get something good in return and I'd rather have them reworking the mount than them reducing the costs.

**Are there going to be new mounts after PoF or is the skyscale going to be the last mount?**

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> @"Kidel.2057" said:

> To add a question and avoid making this (only) a reply: **is it so bad that the Skyscale replaces the Springer?**

>

> The Springer is mandatory to complete the Skyscale, so it's just progression, such as an exotic weapon replaced by an ascended one. After all I already don't use the Raptor since the Jackal is way faster on most terrains (and with Bonds can also jump greater distances). And if I need speed on flat terrains the RB is already the best option. So, again, why is it fine to relegate the Raptor to a somewhat useful engage skill mount and it's not right to replace the Springer (that has probably one of the best engage skills in the game already)?

While I agree with the core sentiment I wouldn't say that the skyscale is "replacing" the springer, maybe for certain tasks but not in general. There are places like Tangled Descent in TD where you definitely want to use the springer over the skyscale thanks to its superior maneuverability in tight spaces.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> You claimed the griffin had unrestricted flight.

Which it has by any normal definition but of course you can always come up with something like "the griffin alone can't get everywhere cause it can't dive", "unless it gets shot down" or something.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> You completely ignored what I said. That's why there's scaling.

Scaling only goes so far, you can still break the content through sheer numbers.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> As if my opinion is worth less.

Not worth less but adversarial in nature. If you think that everyone should dance after your whim cause you feel like it then of course people are going to have a problem with it.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Aight. I've already listed more reasons why they're bad than "i don't want people to play the way they want boohoo." Don't put words in my mouth.

Not really you made some statements which also apply to mounts in general, but your reasoning is extremely inconsistent here. Also "Don't put words in my mouth."? You said "I feel like you should have to...", you forgetting about your own post ≠ me putting words into your mouth.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> My example is not made up.

Them putting a no mount zone on a JP ≠ them putting no mount zones into random places. Like I said if they ever decide to make a new JP then it's going to have a no mount zone regardless.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Um...having a trade-off =/= unrestricted. The griffin alone can't get everywhere.

Neither could the skyscale, your point?

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> I fail to see how having a bunch of people show up to an event is breaking the game.

If an event isn't designed for 50 people then showing up with a full squad is going to break the difficulty it was intended to present.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Clearly it's not just me that thinks unrestricted flying is bad

Which is grounded in complete subjectivity. It essentially boils down to "its bad because I don't want other players to play how they want to play".

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Which become annoying around some JPs like the one in the top left of Harathi. I'd rather more not be added to random other places because of a mount like this.

Now you're just making stuff up, there is no reason why they would put no mount zones on random places. You're essentially just fearmongering here.

They're the only kind of weapons with matching sound / projectile sfx. Also, since the gear design (not talking about the skins but in general) is extremely bland in this game there's not much else to spend your money on once you got a full set of ascended gear.

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> But as I already said. The griffon NEEDS space to perform at full maneuverability. That is its force and the situational niche where it excells.

It's still has unrestricted flight you're just trading maneuverability for speed when compared to the skyscale (or better that's what the trade-off should have been).

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Also, to the person whose argument is that because maps are already broken it's ok to have something that breaks them more...just...no? That's not ok.

Actually there is nothing inherently wrong with "breaking" a challenge the content presents. Most events are designed for a small amount of players and yet you can just show up with 50 players and faceroll them no problem. If the devs want to prevent you form doing something than that's what they're going to do (e.g. no mount zones for JPs) everything else is fair game as it should be.

I really don't understand why you want to force everyone to play the game how you perceive what the "from the devs originally intended way of playing" is supposed to be.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Sure you can argue that the Griffin breaks maps in some cases but it still requires you to get to a high point to do it

Not really, you don't need to climb a mountain since you can just use the springer to gain height.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> No mount zones were also mentioned. Those are more just annoying than anything, I don't want to see more just because a mount can bypass more kitten.

The only kind of content engulfed in no mount zones are JPs which would get them regardless.

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> As already said, free flying is bad for the game.

Which is just an opinion based on subjectivity. The griffon already has "free flying" and where are all these negative consequences at?

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> And the skyscale IS a situational mount the earlier you understand that, the better.

And unrestricted flight wouldn't change that the earlier you understand that, the better.

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> No mount is ever meant to replace another.

Which wouldn't be the case even if the skyscale had unrestricted flight unless you're talking about specific niche situations which is what mounts are based around.

A unique weapon set for the Dragonfall meta? Question is: is it as rare as the other ascended gear drops (Pile of Regurgitated Armor and Tequatl's Hoard) or do we have another "infusion" situation here.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> I beg to differ, there's a reason the roller beetle isn't used a ton as everyone's main mount for traveling.

Yeah, because people tend to follow their preferences even if it's not the most efficient way to get from A to B. Well that and the fact that many of the more casual players didn't even bother to unlock it.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> And I don't really see why you mention pulling up with the griffin, if you're doing that to go over a wall...that's...interacting with the terrain lol

The only one talking about pulling up with a griffon are you, I was talking about the skyscale which would still have to change its height accordingly if it wants to fly over something.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> And some event chains have events that go back and forth in weird places, some high up, some past a bunch of terrain. if someone's new and learning that map, trying to figure out how to get up there to participate, but everyone else with this fancy difficult to get mount just....flies up there

The same thing can be said about mounts in general and none of these things are a problem for those who unlocked all the "core" PoF mounts.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> while they're struggling to figure out how to do it the intended way.

Cause the game doesn't leave you blatantly obvious clues except it does. Also, if everything else fails the chat still exists.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> And I don't want to see them remove difficult to get to places from future maps just because a Skyscale makes the difficulty nonexistent.

You do realise that one thing has nothing to do with the other, right? PoF is optional content meaning none of their future content can be based around players having PoF mounts. If they want to make "difficult to get to places" then they're going to make "difficult to get to places", players with PoF are just going to have an advantage in this regard but that was obvious the moment they announced it. They can also always just slap "no mount zones" on the content in question if they don't want players to use mounts.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> I just don't agree with this. The event that currently comes to mind for me is the Stormcaller Echoes event for Gathering Storm in Sandswept Isles (curse all that currency grinding). Unlimited Flying would let you just fly right up to it from the Olmakhan camp, ignoring the cliffs, while someone stuck to using terrestrial mounts would have to weave around a bunch of stuff to get up there. Sure, it's easy to get up there if you know the way. But why go around a bunch of stuff if you can just go in a straight line?

Like I said "some", and the main part of this meta (you know, the one people are actually care about) is an escort mission where you have to fight a jinn inside of a cave. No flying "required".

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> And back to the previous point, it could be difficult for new players to even figure out how to get up there if most people are just flying there.

Until they remember that maps exist which is A: not that hard and B: a one time experience.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> It's suppose to be an optional mount, not a requirement/superior to all other mounts.

That's quite an empty statement right here. Every mount has an area were it's "superior" to the other ones. That has never been a problem. Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of the term "requirement".

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> I feel like you should have to

And that's the core of the problem here, you guys wanting to dictate how other players should play the game based on your own preferences. Even if the skyscale had unlimited flight you wouldn't be forced to use it but other players could and that's what's bugging you.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> If you use the roller beetle, you still have to steer it at high speeds and dodge walls. That's interacting with the environment. Same goes for the griffin except when flying at high speeds.

You usually see them coming a mile away, there's not much "interaction" here. You also have to pull up if you want to fly over an obstacle, it's the same thing right here.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> And you think just being completely able to fly over all those enemies would make it more engaging? Sure you can't do the event by flying around the boss, but you could certainly ignore the entirety of the map that they designed for you to traverse in order to get there.

Not really you still have to play the meta in order to spawn the boss, there's is no way around that. And like I said earlier: nobody cares about the random trash mobs you see along the way.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> If it can fly for eternity in any direction it wants, it could certainly be the fastest thing to get from some places to others as it could completely invalidate many obstacles that terrestrial mounts would have to navigate.

Keyword is "some" as driving around the obstacle with a roller beetle / griffon is faster ~99% of the time. I can't think of a single instance where slowly flying over an obstacle would be a faster way to the meta than using one of the other mounts.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> Current mounts still require you to interact with the environment though, unrestricted flying doesn't.

Not really, the roller beetle lets you speed past most of the content and when in doubt just go to the highest point in sight and use the griffon. I pretty much had no interactions with "the environment" when I first joined Dragonfall cause obstacles are easy to avoid if you know what you're doing. The only kind of maps where this approach doesn't really work is stuff like TD but these are also the kind of maps where unrestricted flight is the least useful.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> People already complain that the open world is too easy, this would make it braindead.

That has more to do with the enemy / meta design than everything else. You're not going to kill the WB by flying around its head 500 times.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> And the people that want to enjoy the "little details" would essentially be forced to also fly right over everything with everyone else if they want to get to events and stuff without taking 300 years. Imo, losing interaction with the maps is a big negative.

Now this is just nonsense, the skyscale is one of the slowest mounts in the game and simply giving it unrestriced flight wouldn't change that fact. Saying that people would be forced to use it if they don't want to take "300 years" is just a flat out lie.

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> Those players are exploring the zones. They hit obstacles, then they find ways around it, they get to appreciate what the environmental team puts out.

There is a difference between "get to appreciate" and "get annoyed by", you're romanticising your own viewpoint way to much here. Like I said those who want to appreciate the environment will do so regardless. Everyone who is saying that he "can't appreciate what's on the ground cause flying exists" (even tho ground travel is faster the overwhelming majority of the time) is just making excuses.

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> For new zones, exploration will suffer a lot. You don't get to appreciate the little details that is added to the zone as all you will do is fly over everything. If you want to get to the next objective. the best way is to fly up high and ignore everything on the ground. The interesting stuff is on the ground and not on the air. However, there is no obstacles in the way in the air. It is the path of least resistance that players will take.

That's what players are already doing (using the mounts to speed around the map to unlock all the important stuff), people who want to "appreciate the little details" will do that regardless and they are much more inclined to do so the less tedious it is for them as evidenced by the amount of players who said that mounts "made the HoT maps playable" for them. This is pretty much a non issue here.