Trevor Boyer.6524

Thief needs Shortbow put back to 5 init. How about we start with that.

It looks like he didn't stream the MAT, but here is some recent footage of Grimjack regardless: And keep in mind this guy isn't even running the bunker version. Grimjack actually has DPS but still sustains well vs. multiple opponents.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > Tbh the problem with weavers is the problem with ele in general. Every time it starts to deal decent dps it gets gutted for one reason for another. > > > > > > Burn Weaver? Gutted > > > Lightning rod? Gutted > > > Fresh Air? Gutted > > > Arcane skills? LOL > > > > > > Being a super bunker is one of the few things weaver has left, and even that got a signficant tone-down when Anet nerfed sword, twist of fate, and removed stability on stances. Why bother building for damage if Anet is going to nerf it into the floor? Just pump those resources into being as tanky as you possibly can. > > > > > > Part of this issue stems from the fact that Ele **needs** vitality and/or toughness/healing power in order to survive with it's low hp pool. It just doesn't have the damage to opt for a "I kill you or you kill me" kind of playstyle. > > > > > > If Anet wants to change that, they need to re-evaluate what ele even is. > > > > > > Is it supposed to have low vitality, but high sustain to compensate? If so, weavers being sustain lords is working as intended. > > > Do they want to push it down the glass canon route? Low vitality, low sustain, top tier dps. Then they need to give ele the damage to compensate for how frail it is. And they can start by turning staff into a workable ranged weapon so that they're not forced to get up in your face with their 11k hp. > > > Do they want ele to be a jack of all trades? That's fine too, but that requires the dev team to have even the tiniest inkling of what they're doing with it. Celestial amulet was the perfect tool to enable an all-rounder build, but that was deemed unsuitable for pvp. > > > > > > **tl;dr** Ele is a class without direction. The less dev attention they get the better, because every time the class does get mentioned in the patch notes, it's to butcher what little the class has left. > > > > > > -Rant of a salty ex-ele main. > > > > > > > I'm not even a fan of ele and I'll say you're right. Removing celestial amulet was wrong. > > Cele amulet was terrible for ele for quite a while though. They simply nerfed all the wrong spots when they tried to deal with fire weaver. Weaver is definitely in a worse spot than with fire weaver (luckily) and worse than the old water version. It can have solid sustain of course, but the damage has been nerfed significantly and there simply is incredibly low stab uptime/stunbreak capability. > > I would like to see this problematic build OP describes especially with that stab spam. Is someone trolling power builds with earth? :lol: > > Apart from ele, I agree with some - power rev being a sleeper meta build, overshadowed by its own renegade variant. Burn DHs being problematic. Some issues with rangers, i.e. immob spam -, disagree with some others - core guard's incredible speed? But it is good to have discussions. Oh I'm sure today's MAT will display Weaver. At least in NA I know it will. I logged in late and missed the MAT, otherwise I would have streamed it myself. I'll try to find someone who has good Weaver footage and I'll post it up.

> @"Raiden The Beast.3016" said: > > So feel free to give ur input in the shadowmeetings? > > Well that's exactly why I do this. Judging from the amount of people who I see use my exact words to describe a balance issue and how they feel about it, I know that people read these posts, and hopefully that includes the people in these shadowmeetings.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > > Every class can pick speed rune and every class with traps can benefit from trapper rune. Fun fact: trevor plays a class that can use traps and that can benefit from trapper runes. So his class is the one that comes closer to thief than dh ever could, as it has more mobility than dh and traps on top. > > > > This is not true at all. Rangers cannot benefit from the Trap Rune in the same way that DHs can. I'll explain why: > > > > 1. DHs have mechanisms like pulls and teleports to be able to make offensive use of the traps. They also have Maw which seals a person into the trap duration so they can't just leave the damage pit once it triggers. The DH also has double symbols and Sword of Justice to stack on the AoE burst. The DH also has front loaded defenses to be able to aggressively burst with the traps, to ensure the opponent is taking a lot more damage from the burst than the DH is taking. > > 2. The Ranger has no pulls, no teleports, no big CC pit to seal a person into its traps. Upon the traps just dealing bad damage in general, the Ranger also has little to no big AoE damage to stack onto its trap stack. The Ranger gets less than half of the burst potential with traps that a DH gets, and it has to utilize traps 100% defensively through baiting people into them, rather than being able to go offensive with them through use of pulls and teleports. This doesn't work out so well in middle to high tiers. Better players will obviously avoid the Ranger traps, and due to this they become rather useless when you're talking 1500+ play. > > 3. The largest role that Rangers play right now is to side node, which means they DO NOT want to be stealthing and bailing nodes often. And the trap burst potential on Ranger is not enough to warrant trying to utilize a trap burst build in the way that DHs do it, especially because they have no pulls or cc pits or ports make it practical. > > The ranger do have a pull thought (_Path of scar (axe off hand)_ ), a lot of mobility (_Swoop (GS 1000)_, _Swoop (SB bird 1200)_, _monarch leap (sword 600)_ ) as well as a CC pit (_spike trap_, _frost trap_ and to add to the fun _entangle_ and/or F2 taunt _Beastly warden_). I do think _Whirling defense (axe off-hand)_ do hurt quite a lot as an aoe, _worldly impact/Primal cry_ aren't kind either. > > I do agree that core ranger might lag behind DH in these aspects, but Soulbeast hardly do. Let me clear a few things up on this: 1. Path of Scars is not a reliable pull. It's actually extremely difficult to hit with. It's also not a favorable thing to take a power damage based off-hand on a condi trap build. 2. Yes, Greatsword gets a mobility leap on #3. But Soulbeasts don't use birds or gazelle anymore for mobility because they can no longer swap pets while in combat. They have to use Smokescale for Smoke Assault and the F2 stealthing to be able to survive, and they have to stay on Smokescale and not swap or they risk getting stuck with bird or gazelle which has no Smoke Assault or stealth field. 3. Monarch Leap doesn't count as a mobility skill. I've explained this several times in other threads and I've seen other Rangers do the same. Look, Monarch Leap has funky animations. A person with Swiftness that is running alongside of a Ranger using Monarch Leap, ends up outpacing the person using Monarch Leap. The animations are too clunky and stoppy on Monarch Leap. 4. My good bro, Spike Trap is not even comparable to Dragon's Maw. A single stun break gets you up an out of Spike Trap immediately because it is a 1 strike knockdown. Dragon's Maw is a literal CC pit where you get trapped in a big bucket of invisible wall around you and cannot get out unless you have stab stacks to cross the wall. 5. Axe 5, WI, all of those things are only useful on a power build, which wouldn't be bringing condition based traps.

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > Have you tried checking that your computer's time is correct? (To synchronize right-click date/time in toolbar - choose 'Adjust date/time') > Tried a -repair of the client? > > Good luck. That was exactly what the problem was. Somehow my PC's clock was just about 2 minutes ahead of schedule. Thanks for taking the time to post ^^

> @"RedAvenged.5217" said: > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > A 'support' sitting alone on a node is a waste of slot. A smart 'support' will be in group fights where it can be easily focused. > > Also, a smart dps player will not be engaging in a 1v1 with a support. L2p issue here. > > I call bs. Support holding a node by itself is insanely common and it can often even 1v2 forever by its self bringing huge value. Current Weaver bruh. No idea why it isn't being complained about in forum tbh. It really is insanely and obnoxiously strong on side nodes in this patching.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > (...) > > 5. **Watch the 2nd video I posted. DHs are definitely ganking/rotating/disengaging like thieves.** > > (...) > > I did. > > 1. He did not use GS. He had Shield and Focus. Everyone else noticed that I used the GS in the 2nd video simply as a demo with Wings to demonstrate 1400 range intervals. Obviously I was not encouraging the idea that the DH in video 1 was using GS or Wings for movement. I don't know what you're doing man. > 2. He did use Wings before, not for travelling, at 0:27 seconds. Why are you worried if he used Wings or not? If he did, this only demonstrates how much further he could go if he wanted to, while using mobility skills, than what I showed in my video, which only shows straight run speed with Super Speed lol. I don't understand what you're doing man. You're making arguments that actually support what I am saying. > 3. He did not have Maw off CD yet (compare usage at 0:09 seconds and 40 seconds CD). > 4. He wasted another trap at 0:31 seconds (Blades, due to CD of 20 seconds). And what is the point of this other than you explaining how far a DH can disengage with just 1 trap? Kind of seems like you are supporting what I am saying in this thread tbh. > 5. **Your pet saw him to the left!!!** Obviously the pet saw him go left. How many times do I have to explain this? No one is going to chase a stealthed Trap DH who is laying trap stacks all over the place with a glass cannon spec. If you claim that you would have, it would have been the DH running you off or downing you, rather than you forcing it to retreat. > 6. I actually didn't see any Test of Faith trap, instead SoJ (which you mention, I admit). So probably only 3 seconds of stealth to get out of your limited sight. So first people are claiming it can't disengage very far with 3 to 4 traps, but now you're saying it can do that with 1 trap? lol Come on man. I don't know what you're doing here. Now you're just further exasperating my point made about how strong its disengage ability is. > > Stop spreading misinformation. Then we can talk about actual problems with burn DH. But a few more points first: My demo videos that I post in this forum are notoriously spot on actually. I mean, when you're going in game and demonstrating actual physics & mechanics caught on video, there isn't a whole lot to argue with other than yourself and your own ability to accept what you're seeing. Up to you now man.

> @"McPero.3287" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > > > > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. > > > > But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? > > > > You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made: > > > > > > > > > > > > No he didn't. In the first video he used some traps before he started running away from you so he couldn't possibly make 4000 range escape, you just positioned in a way where he needed only one trap to escape. You seem to be the one not understanding the concept of line of sight. Also moving 4000 range by using 4 utility slots seems kinda fair to me? What is DH supposed to do when he gets on the node and there is someone else there? Use his weapon skills lol? No stunbreaks also btw. Nothing you've said in this post makes any sense whatsoever. I've clearly demonstrated in the 2nd video what it requires to make that run while completely stealthed. He did not make that run with 1 trap. You're doing some denial of truth argument again like "No, apples look blue to me so I'll argue with you about them being red or green" garbage. Just stop man. The video shows enough clear visual footage to the left, the DH did not make the trap in 1 run. He was not revealed neither visually on the screen or with his icon, which would have appeared on the mini map around that corner if he had used only 1 trap. The video I made shows very clearly that he would need 3 traps to make it from his position to the side of the mountain and then use JI, or 4 traps to make it without JI. @"Assyr.3296" I think you did not see the 2nd video posted. Scroll up a bit. Also: 1. The DH is no where on the mini map or on the screen. The video very very clearly demonstrates this. I don't what is wrong with some of you guys. Some of these claims or arguments you point are out are as nonsensical and weird as if you had claimed to me that you saw 2 warriors in the video attacking me, or that the game I was streaming wasn't even GW2. Just please stop. Go watch the video again, there is no Guardian anywhere. So you explain to me where did he come from? If you want to argue this further, please give me a timestamp from the video of where you somehow spotted a Guardian either in the mini map or on the screen approaching me. 2. I blocked his burst, yes. But he did TOUCH me with a small stack of burn, and that small stack of burn was enough to bring me from 100% health down to 3% health. This point that DH mains keep making here is quite flip flopped. They act as if "oh the burst is ok because you blocked and survived it" when in reality the video shows a small stack of burn completely trash my health bar, just the small stack of burn, encompassing only about 10% of what his total burst value is worth if it hits directly. In my opinion this footage demonstrates how inordinately high the damage burst is, not that it is OK or underpowered, or w/e these DH mains are trying to encourage with this footage. 3. Yeah I trashed the Guardian because I'm a player with 20,000 games played in GW2, and he was a bad DH. If he had been a good player at all, he wouldn't have went in for a burst like that without using Focus 5 and having an F3 ready to go to support. In the video he uses neither, which is indication of his bad judgement. I'll say it to you as well: "If a strong player on a meme build beats an inexperienced player on a meta build, it does not mean that the meme build is strong and it does not mean that the meta build isn't overperforming. It means there is a large gap in skill level between the two players." And as much is indicated from his lack of use of Focus 5 and F3. 4. I couldn't have chased him down easily. For starters, I had no idea where he was going. Secondly, I'm on a glass cannon spec. I can't afford to go chasing in at something that is stealthed, that is dropping 1shot trap stacks all over the place. That's a dumb move. The only thing I can do is wait to know where he is if I want to play safe and not allow him an opportunity to turn around the 1v1 and 1shot me with a trap stack. 5. **Watch the 2nd video I posted. DHs are definitely ganking/rotating/disengaging like thieves.** 6. I don't need to play DH myself because I regularly play ATs daily, where I have teams stacked with 2x DHs + Supports, and in that case DHs become godly lords of the team fight, and their performance is quite easily read. I posted a video of that as well somewhere in this thread. Removing or altering Rune Of The Trapper will not kill Guardians, but it will curb this DH build. I don't care if they have 1s of stealth & super speed per trap, that's fine. 1s per would allow them the detarget value for team fights. But the way it is right now, it's too much stealth & super speed to where it's dumb and thief like. End of story. If DHs are so weak that they need this Rune to operate, then DH itself needs buffing. And in that case, the rune still needs to go. We don't need to be balancing the class DH around the rune. <- This is a serious fundamental fumble in the design error, to be balancing an entire class around 1 rune.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said: > He still believes the DH was running JI... :lol: Dude, you got hit by Slow first. A trap. Not by JI's burning. Dude you can JI at something outside of the range that it would actually hit the target and still JI to close a gap. Example: JI is 1200 range, but I can JI at something that is 2000 range from me, and still JI towards it but be 800 range away from it when I land out of the JI. This is clearly how the DH in the video was crossing such distance without being identified on the mini map for ganks, and clearly how he got to the far node with only 3 trap duration stealth, by clipping through the mountain at the Necro with JI. If I fall asleep in a house with a toddler and we are the only ones in the house, if when I wake up and cookie are gone out of the cookie jar, I don't need a video recording to know that the toddler ate the cookies out of the cookie jar. You guys make these hairy arguments man, but you completely ignore obvious rationale and logic. It's hard to take seriously sometimes.

> @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > None of the elite specs break the core restrictions on classes that give them their flavour. There is no mobility king necro without rune of speed, there is no stealthy boi DH without rune of the trapper. It's these runes which completely eliminate weaknesses a class absolutely should have. However if these runes can acutally stay the way they are... then you are actually right, however only relating to necro and guardian. The rest of the classes do not get runesets which completely negate one of their core weakness. > > Try speccing your thief into a team healer, try making a stealth elementalist etc... if these things are impossible, why is stealth guardian and zoom-zoom necro a thing? Either all or none of them should exist. I'd prefere the latter. > That whole text makes no sense. His text is worded well and makes complete sense in every way. Enough of these weird denial of truth arguments. Someone points at a red car and says it's red, and you guys come back with "no it's green" and then you seriously act like you believe your own argument, when you well know that you're only saying it for the sake denying a 100% accurate statement. > > Every class can pick speed rune and every class with traps can benefit from trapper rune. Fun fact: trevor plays a class that can use traps and that can benefit from trapper runes. So his class is the one that comes closer to thief than dh ever could, as it has more mobility than dh and traps on top. This is not true at all. Rangers cannot benefit from the Trap Rune in the same way that DHs can. I'll explain why: 1. DHs have mechanisms like pulls and teleports to be able to make offensive use of the traps. They also have Maw which seals a person into the trap duration so they can't just leave the damage pit once it triggers. The DH also has double symbols and Sword of Justice to stack on the AoE burst. The DH also has front loaded defenses to be able to aggressively burst with the traps, to ensure the opponent is taking a lot more damage from the burst than the DH is taking. 2. The Ranger has no pulls, no teleports, no big CC pit to seal a person into its traps. Upon the traps just dealing bad damage in general, the Ranger also has little to no big AoE damage to stack onto its trap stack. The Ranger gets less than half of the burst potential with traps that a DH gets, and it has to utilize traps 100% defensively through baiting people into them, rather than being able to go offensive with them through use of pulls and teleports. This doesn't work out so well in middle to high tiers. Better players will obviously avoid the Ranger traps, and due to this they become rather useless when you're talking 1500+ play. 3. The largest role that Rangers play right now is to side node, which means they DO NOT want to be stealthing and bailing nodes often. And the trap burst potential on Ranger is not enough to warrant trying to utilize a trap burst build in the way that DHs do it, especially because they have no pulls or cc pits or ports make it practical. > > The only reason reaper has to pick speed rune is because not picking it is an instant loss to any other class that picks it. That rune hardcounters reaper. So if you say the rune is bad because reaper becomes too mobile with it: every other class becomes even more mobile with it! Reaper relies on chill to keep the target at range. Speed rune nullifies chill. You're trying to word around his point made, which are runes that eliminate a classes intended weakness, by simply taking a rune option.. Sure everyone can use Rune Of Speed but it's really unnecessary on most classes and wouldn't qualify as "removing their weaknesses". In fact, Rune Of Speed is is a bad option in general on every other class except Necro and maybe Renegade. In regards to Rune Of Trapper, sure everyone can use it, but only DHs & Rangers can really utilize it because they are the only classes left with traps. Rune Of Trapper sucks on Ranger for the aforementioned reasons, but Rune Of Trapper is dumb on DH because it is doing what Baszi has pointed out, eliminating its intended weakness. With the way Guardian/DH skills & traits work in synergy with Rune Of Trapper, it's dumb and it's too much. It's on par of the same kind of dumb as if there a rune that said "Gain 2s of invulnerability each time you use a trick or deception utility", allowing a Thief to completely eliminate its class weakness off of just a rune selection, so it can stay in a fight and brawl like a Warrior. > > Speaking about class weaknesses: > What is the ranger class weakness? It has range, it has mobility, it has stealth, it has blocks and invulns, it has strong melee aoe, it has stability, it has acess to all important pvp boons in the game. Maybe we should actually add a weakness to ranger before we continue with dh and reaper at this point? This is lol. It's like you think Core Power Marks, Condi Immob Druid, DPS Sic Em Soulbeast, and Boonbeast builds are all the same one build. Let me explain to you quite exactly the weaknesses of Ranger builds so there is no confusion here: * Core Power Marks - Gets countered by anything condi. It can't even win 1v1s against Condi Mirage, Condi Chronos, PD Condi Thieves, Good Weavers, Condi Druid Variants, Struggles vs Core Burn Guards if the Guard knows how to LOS and play wisely. Core Power Marks nowadays is only good vs. strictly other power based builds, and in that case it counters power based builds. * Condi Immob Druids - Gets countered by Spellbreakers, DPS Soulbeast variants, Holos who go tanky. Pretty much heavy power damage mixed with heavy CC counters Druids. * DPS Sic Em Soulbeasts - Gets countered real hard by Renegade, Weaver, Core Power Marks. Can be countered by Power/Condi hybrid Chronos & Mirages. * Boonbeast builds aren't even a thing right now. Its ability to generate a ton of boons has been so severely nerfed even before the mega nerf patch, that after the mega nerf patch when it was nerfed even further, Boonbeast builds disappeared man. So I dunno from what era you're remembering "Rangers having all boons" but that simply isn't true anymore in 2021. Ranger builds largely get: Fury & Prot. Then they have middle ground access to regeneration & quickness & Swiftness. Then they only get stability if they bring Strength of the Pack, and that duration of stab has been greatly nerfed. No one uses Dolyak anymore dude, it was nerfed too much. Core Ranger weakness in terms of job, is that it's garbage in team fights, absolute useless garbage in comparison to things like Renegade or DH or Necros ect ect when things become 2v2+. Druid is a bit better in team fights currently but its weakness is that it still sucks at team fights compared to other classes. Core & Druid are side node players, and they no longer the front the kind of mobility to realistically keep up with things like thieves, mesmers, or now DHs or even Reapers with Speed Rune. The also can't disengage things like Renegade or Heralds or anything with ports to stay on them. DPS Soulbeast is great as a team fight + and great in 1v1s, but it absolutely cannot handle 2v1 focus and it must run and disengage and hide like a Thief when focused. It also cannot actually stand and HOLD the node like a Core or Druid. It has to stealth often and play like a Thief to survive which means it loses nodes in the process of killing players to actually win the node. ^ I can assure you that this is an accurate assessment of currently played Ranger specs as of Jan 2021, but I'm sure you'll come back with some kind of a would-be argument as usual. > > The video shows a glass canon sooulbeast surviving an extremely aggressive burst from a trapper dh and then even winning the duell (he would have killed the dh if he actually tried but he preferred to play it safe.). All this video proves is that the poster doesn't like a specific mechanic, but not at all that this mechanic is overpowered. Dude I blocked the power damage with GS 4. A small stack of burning still dropped my health to 3%. In my opinion the video shows how inordinately jacked up burn damage is right now. And about saying "I won the engagement" yeah dude I'm a player with 20,000 games and 9 years under my belt. I'll say it again: **If a veteran player uses a meme build and beats a less experienced player who is on a meta, it does not mean that the meme build is good and it does not mean that the meta build isn't overperforming.** And you don't need analyze anything to prove that "the poster doesn't like a specific mechanic" because I have very literally stated this about 4 or 5x in posted responses, and now twice in twitch videos. It is not secret that I am speaking from a game design standpoint rather than a statement of something being OP.

> @"McPero.3287" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made:

> @"McPero.3287" said: > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general.

> @"Vombs.5917" said: > **Core:** > [stalker’s Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalker%27s_Strike) - Range increased to **550**. ( [Off-Hand Training](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Off-Hand_Training) ) > [Predator's Onslaught](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Predator%27s_Onslaught) - _Only activates while in combat_. Swapping pets teleports you to your pets location. **[15s ICD]** > **Druid:** > [Celestial Avatar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Avatar) - Activation threshold & duration removed. Celestial Avatar abilities consume astral force. Cool down decreased to **15** seconds. > [Glyph of Unity](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Unity) - Outside Celestial Avatar Tether yourself to allies & take **33%** of their incoming damage. > (Inside Celestial Avatar Tether yourself to allies & heal allies **33%** of incoming self-healing) > [Druidic Clarity](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity) - Transfers **2** conditions from allies to pet on entrance. Exiting _copies_ **3** conditions from pet to foes. (**360** radius) > [Celestial Shadow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Shadow) - Grants quickness **(3s)** to allies on entrance. Exiting grants protection **(3s)** to allies. (**360** radius) > **Soulbeast:** > [Vulture Stance](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vulture_Stance) - Grants regeneration instead of might. > [bear Stance](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bear_Stance) - Conditions removed per interval decreased to **1**. > [Live Fast](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Live_Fast) - Activates off pets **F2** beast ability. Beast abilities remove **2** boons. > These ideas are terrible and would bury any build that needed to use the original versions of these traits/skills.

Pure DPS Soulbeast Longbow/Greatsword is insanely strong in wvw roaming with pve gear options & food/utility. What puts it over the top is the pve gears & food/utility. It isn't the build itself, it's the extra stat stacking granted by pve/wvw options.

Core Ranger fails at condi builds Core Ranger power builds were over-nerfed and can no longer compete in higher tiers unless it is vs. very specifically power damage Druid is bad unless you're playing in middle tiers Druid is only "looking to be viable" because of Jacaranda Condi Soulbeast is atrociously bad and in no way viable Power Soulbeast is still viable amongst high tier, but it literally takes "the most experienced Ranger players in the community" to be able to even make it work Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast is middle tier amongst everything else at best right now in this current patching. Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast has always felt strong in middle tiers due to middle tier players not understanding how to work LOS and how to exploit bad pet pathing, which is what most of you are probably feeling. Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast in higher tiers is just really really difficult to play. It couldn't sustain anymore nerfing in this current patching without dropping out of the scene completely, and that isn't bias, that is actually true. The only thing that SHOULD be tended to is Druid immob spam builds. <- This has nothing to do with OP or UP, it's about obnoxious mechanics. The real root of the problem is the Jacaranda. Jacaranda is the icing on the cake of these builds that puts them over the top in terms of frequency of immob spam, and ability to deal a lot of damage while the player is caught in the immob spam. That damage coming from Call Lightning. If it weren't for the Call Lightning, I assure you that Druid has bad damage.

Soulbeast is one of the best and most flexible fractal classes, both power and condi variants. If you're having trouble in fractals as Soulbeast, I suggest taking out the least important utility on your bar and always bring Dolyak Stance.

Well, traditionally we should be seeing Phoenix birds and a Luxon Turtle with a cannon on its back. We'll see though.

@"Kuma.1503" I was one of the people who thumbsed up your post btw. You wrote it without spite or insultation and I actually agreed with what you've said.

@"CroTiger.7819" Reread the OP post carefully. I did not say DH or Trap Rune was OP. I said that DH being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers is dumb and shouldn't be happening from a sheer design standpoint. It is as equally dumb as if my Ranger had a rune that allowed it summon phantasms each time I used a Wilderness Survival Skill, or if there were a rune that summoned rocket turrets every time a Signet was used. And then I could toss the same types of wonky defenses and distractions in threads that attempt to point out how broken those runes were, that people are tossing in here. I could say: "My Ranger build needs the phantasms. Why is it weird that my Ranger can summon phantasms? Isn't every class supposed to be able to do everything?" yada yada yada. It's w/e man. Enjoy your Trap Rune. This thread is just my opinion.

> @"Math.5123" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > Guards spinny sword of fire is better at cleaving than a zerker ele's fgs. > > > > > > > > > > This is straight up a lie. > > > > > > > > I have videos to show otherwise...do you want force me to upload videos on youtubes after processing them and prove you wrong? > > > > - a single sword of justice summon can down a light/medium golem on its own > > > > - You need a full FGS rotation to down a medium golem...and we're talking about an elite > > > > > > He said, the sword alone is better damage than zerk fgs. I can guarantee you I'll get more dmg out of fgs in a 16s duration (time to cast all 4 swords) than the burning from sword. > > > > You are comparing 1x sword of justice to a 16s duration FG. > > > > If you want to compare the dps output for a full 16s, a guardian could summon 3x sword of justice in that time. > > I'll give you a chance to reread what i wrote. See if you can grasp it. You are also not considering some basic practicality issues during cleaving, such as how players will attack you and CC you while you are trying to cleave with the FGS, which will interrupt your ideal full 16s rotation. The Sword Of Justice summons however, just do their job.

> @"Math.5123" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > Guards spinny sword of fire is better at cleaving than a zerker ele's fgs. > > > > > > This is straight up a lie. > > > > I have videos to show otherwise...do you want force me to upload videos on youtubes after processing them and prove you wrong? > > - a single sword of justice summon can down a light/medium golem on its own > > - You need a full FGS rotation to down a medium golem...and we're talking about an elite > > He said, the sword alone is better damage than zerk fgs. I can guarantee you I'll get more dmg out of fgs in a 16s duration (time to cast all 4 swords) than the burning from sword. You are comparing 1x sword of justice to a 16s duration FG. If you want to compare the dps output for a full 16s, a guardian could summon 3x sword of justice in that time.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target, > > > > > > > > > > Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP! > > > > > > > > I dunno, ask @"Ragnar.4257" about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off. > > > > > > I never claimed that thief could do that. > > > > > > I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't. > > > > > > Do try to keep up. > > > > lol, dude you said that: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > > > I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument. > > > > > > 1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief. > > 2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument. So you're telling me, that when you form an MAT team, 2x Thieves are as good of a replacement for node holding team fighters as 2x DHs? Amazing comp. I'm sure that team will win. They will definitely be able to hold nodes against teams that have DHs and Renegades as team fighters.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target, > > > > > > Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP! > > > > I dunno, ask @"Ragnar.4257" about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off. > > I never claimed that thief could do that. > > I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't. > > Do try to keep up. lol, dude you said that: > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > > > > > > > Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? > > > > > > > > > > Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable. > > > > > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > > > > > No > > > > > > Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter. **And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.** Enough with unreasonable argument. > > > > > > The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true. > > > > > > > > > > Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying. > > > > And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare? > > > > To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build. > > > > Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment. > > > > "It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports. > > It's just like in the original post. Him saying the guard was too fast and using teleports, while he actually walked there in 12 seconds. Makes one think of all his other posts... You keep bringing up this 12s thing which has nothing to do with anything really. I noticed the Guardian was gone after 7s. At that point, it wouldn't matter if I immediately chased around to the left, he was already at the far node, and that was the point made, that the DH could stealth and disengage to that far node in 7s. It doesn't matter if I had followed him immediately right behind him or had afked for 30s. The point is that the DH can stealth from that position and make it to his close in 7s due to the rune of the trapper. And in case you want to argue futher, the movement of the pet AI proves that what I said here is true. When the DH stealths, the pet begins to follow him to the left, because pets will follow stealthed opponents like that. But then the pet stops his pathing and comes back to me about 4s after the DH was moving to the left. The only way this could have happened is if he had used JI through the mountain and left the range of the pet pathing. **So yeah, that DH got to the far node in 7s my dude. I'll say it again, that's DP Thief like mobility when SB5 was only 5 init.** Bring up all the embellished misinformation and misevaluation of what happened in the video all you want, but it doesn't change what actually happened in the video. And it certainly doesn't change my statement that DHs shouldn't be cross classed thief/mesmers.