Trevor Boyer.6524

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > @"Ragnar.4257" I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target, > > Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP! I dunno, ask @"Ragnar.4257" about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

@"Ragnar.4257" lol you're right actually. We did have two supports in that match. Doesn't change my point though that Trap DH is not as squishy as a Thief in a 4v4. DHs have a lot of front loaded defenses like Focus 5, F3 Shield, Sword 3 which stops projectiles, Shield 5 bubble, and they get protection. And that's not even going into the truth behind how a lot of offensive pressure is as good as a defense. When a lot of offensive pressure//CC is laid down, it forces players to defense cycle rather than attack to begin with. Then most of the condi damage in the game aside from Necros & Guardian burn, rolls off of projectile based attacks right now, which Guardian is good at nullifying. It appears as if Trap DH had less sustain due to the lack of defensive utilities & traits, but realistically they have so much AoE dps pressure & CC, as well as a few other defensive measures, that they fair just fine in the middle of a team fight, clearly. A Thief on the other hand, it doesn't matter how much support is riding it. A Thief still explodes on impact in the middle of a team fight if 2 or 3 guys target him, regardless of if he had a FB glued to his hip. We both know that's true so stop acting like it isn't. **But rewinding back to the original point of this post: Keep in mind that I never claimed DH or Trap Rune was OP. I said that DHs shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like actual thieves & mesmers. Some of you keep trying to turn this into some kind of justification that "DH needs the runes or that DH isn't as strong as everyone seems to think", which isn't the point of what I said. I merely stated my opinion that it was dumb in 2021 when we have heavy classes thieving & mesmering off the use of a rune #6 ability.** It would be different if they designed a new elite spec for oh say a Guardian, that was entirely configured around granting it stealthing measures in a balanced sort of way. But when something like a DH is getting a lot of stealth & super speed off a rune #6 ability, lol come on man. I mean come on. I mean if people want to justify this, how would they feel when Reapers had 3+ seconds of stealth and super speed each time they entered shroud, or if a Spellbreaker had 3+ seconds of stealth every time he swapped weapons? At some point people need to recognize when too much is too much.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? > > > > Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > > > > No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable. > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. No Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter. **And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.** Enough with unreasonable argument. The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > So uh... > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Wow good ol gw2 forum members lol these reasonings being posted defending guards access to stealth is humourous lol. Indeed.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > So uh... > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > Don't make petty arguments. As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardian is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > What I'm getting out of this is that the community hates classes with good/consistent disengage. The comparison to mesmer and thief supports this hypothesis. > The idea that your opponent could simply choose to erase their mistakes by leaving combat at any time really grinds people's gears, and I reckon it's a big reason for the desire to nerf thief, as well as keep mesmer in the gutter. > > This is just a hypothesis though. > > Nope, I think you're on the ball with that analysis. The only difference in my book is that, actual thieves and mesmers are glass cannon single target bursters, whereas a DH is a node bruiser AoE nuclear bomb that can down 5 people in one burst if they stand closely enough and didn't have stability to get out of maw. <- When you're talking that kind of node nuking power, I don't think this build needs to be approaching thief/mesmer like stealth/mobility levels.

> @"Math.5123" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed. > > > > Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here. > > > > Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential? > > If he's using his heal, elite and a utility to disengage. Yes. > How is this any different from a scrapper stealth gyro and superspeeding away? @"Justine.6351" Because medium class Engineer from day 1 was designed around the idea to have a bit of stealth, team AoE stealth even. Guardian on the other hand, has been being balance for years around being a heavy bruiser spec and sometime support, that is slow and doesn't have stealth. It was given a lot of statistical parameters to make up for NOT having high mobility and stealth. This isn't too hard to figure out here, why it's over performing. > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster. > > > > > > What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth? > > > > > > Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument? > > > > He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone. > > > > Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared. > > > > So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were. > > > > Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though. > > > > Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer. > > 1. I double checked: You run around there for **12 seconds** until you see the tempest. You use a block about 10 seconds after he stealthed. **He pops up at close after about 12 seconds.** > 2. The rune give 3 seconds of stealth. You are standing in that canyon thing and he has the time to run to the sides immediately after setting the trap. **Your pet starts to run towards him after 3 seconds!** > > This is what stealth does, but you could have expected it. What does that have to do with the fact that he can stealth and traverse that long of a distance, regardless of the time taken, without me being able to tell where he is? That's the point, DHs being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers. I don't understand the attention deficit here in this thread. Next I'm going to have someone come in here and argue with me about the colors of the outfits the characters in the video were wearing.

> @"Justine.6351" said: > I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed. Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here. Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

> @"Megametzler.5729" said: > I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster. > > What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth? > > Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument? He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone. Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared. So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were. Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though. Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go. > > But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP. Actually, I blocked the bulk of the damage. My health was dropped that low from the initial small stack of burn that he applied lol. If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. Strong enough to where you can block 90% of the DH's burst, but if he can scathe you at all with a couple stacks of burn, it's still capable of ripping away 80% of your health bar. As far as the DH taking damage, as you can see in the video, the dude chooses to port in like that with no Focus 5 or F3 shield up during his burst. That's the fault of his own skill level. Your initial analysis doesn't take any of that into consideration. If it would have been one of our top 100 players doing that burst, the DH wouldn't have taken damage at all. Let me go ahead and leave this here again: > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

> @"wevh.2903" said: > > You used both your elite and sic em to kill a guy with 40% hp wich is a big missplay , you should had used only elite and then use sic em on the guardian. > > If you want to reveal the guardian you can activate a randon trap . > > Actually no I didn't. The Zephyr & Sic Em were already on CD from the previous engagement. I only used One Wolf Pack to down the Thief. Man, if you guys want to argue with me, at least get the details of what happened in the video correct. And besides that, none of this has anything to do with how Rune Of Trapper has made DH a cross class Thief/Mesmer.

> @"Math.5123" said: > Imagine dedicating 80% of your utility bar, along with a rune to get some mobility. Only to have people say you shouldn't be allowed to. > > I haven't logged into the game for about two months, and even when i did play; i didn't touch this build more than a handful of games. > > I agree that the rune needs to go, but not for the reasons you're giving. > You're saying it gives the rotational expertise only a thief or mesmer should have. When in reality, running with perma swiftness will cover more distance faster. > The stealth is the only cancerous part about the rune because it allows them to play without a stunbreak. > What's more is the insane scaling of permeating wrath in teamfights. > > Double cleansing sigil and 1 source of stab is enough to beat this build in a 1v1. Sorry my dude, I just don't think DHs should be a cross class thief/mesmer. Looks like many people agree with me.

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" Once again, this thread is not about how bad or good I am, or the DH in the video, or anyone for that matter. This thread is about the basic fundamental discussion on how DHs shouldn't be able to do thieving & mesmering as well as an actual thief or mesmer. > > > > But if you insist on redirecting the topic towards some kind of player skill evaluation, let me quote this for you incase you did not see it yet: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels. > > > > > > If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it. > > > > > > It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance. > > > > > > So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread. > > > > > > Oh if you want to go down that road, lets talk about how that is purely conjecture on your part. You haven't provided any substantial argument proving it supercedes thief nor mesmers capabilities, nor do you seem the understand the roles anet has set to them. Because it's quite obvious to everyone in this thread that a thief is a better a thief than a gimmick dh build, and it would be readily apparent to you should you lose the cognitive dissonance you created by defending an invalid point from the get go. 1. I made no conjecture. It isn't conjecture when someone states a fact. In this case I stated a fact about the purpose of this thread and what the discussion was about. 2. You are the one who made "conjecture" when you tried to encourage your opinion that I did not have a right to post an opinion about Rune Of The Trapper because: "If you're getting punished by a build that has 1 stunbreak there is nothing anyone can post here, nor anything anet can ever nerf that will make you semi-decent at pvp." <- That's just an insulting attack on character, in hopes to create some kind of an "off the tracks" defense vs. the topic, which is about Rune Of The Trapper turning DHs into thief/mesmer cross class, which the video footage clearly and indisputably shows is true. That's not conjecture, that is actually happening, as shown in the video. 3. I never said anything about "DH superseding or surpassing Thief & Mesmer at Thieving & Mesmering." I said that DHs shouldn't be able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers. Enough with the convoluted responses. 4. I don't understand the roles anet has set? lol I actually laughed at this. I think that most people reading & following this topic would agree that by suggesting a heavy bruiser role shouldn't be allowed to have the mobility & stealth of a light role, it would be a good indication that someone does understand the roles of balance lol. 5. **Again, I never said the DH was better at thieving & mesmer than thieves and mesmers. I said a DH shouldn't be able to thieve and mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers. There is no cognitive dissonance in the video footage that shows a DH stealth ganking, rotating, and disengaging like a DP Thief when SB5 was only 5 init. My point and purpose of this thread is definitely valid.** If you are seriously trying to defend DH/Rune Of Trapper, you ought to do it with some real discussion and some real points, rather than making a dozen errors while posting quotes of things I never actually said.

@"Gwaihir.1745" Once again, this thread is not about how bad or good I am, or the DH in the video, or anyone for that matter. This thread is about the basic fundamental discussion on how DHs shouldn't be able to do thieving & mesmering as well as an actual thief or mesmer. But if you insist on redirecting the topic towards some kind of player skill evaluation, let me quote this for you incase you did not see it yet: > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels. > > If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it. > > It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance. > > So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread.

> @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Abyssisis.3971" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Abyssisis.3971" said: > > > > Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point. > > > > > > Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability. > > > > > > Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now. > > > > > > DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem. > > > > I’m all for the removal of stealth from trapper runes/stealth in general lol, but I doubt it will solve any issues with DH as a lot of the complains are coming from it being a spamming play style with lots of burn stacks and being too easy to play for how much damage it causes. > > > > Is rune of the trapper broken on rangers? I never hear any complaints about rangers using it, just DH using it. > > Dragonhunter is actually quite weak without trapper runes. I actually agree with this. I think they need Rune Of The Trapper to be functional. The problem is that they are too functional to the point of overperformance right now, and they are bordering on being allowed game mechanics that only thieves and mesmers should have. The thing is though, they shouldn't be balancing DH around a single rune. If DH needs a very specific rune to be functional, that is a problem with DH just as much as it is the rune that is making it over perform. If this is the case, DH needs fixing so that it can perform without needing a rune that turns it into a cross-class thief.

Actually @"Swagger.1459" the point of the video clip and this thread was to highlight the stealth gank/rotational/disengage potential that Rune Of The Trapper is granting DH. The video highlights this quite perfectly actually. The point of the video was not to compare Rangers vs. DHs. The point of the video was to display what Rune Of The Trapper was granting DH, and to express the widely received community view that DHs shouldn't be thieving & mesmering in the same way that actual thieves & mesmers are able to thief & mesmer. @"wevh.2903" The video and this thread is about Rune Of The Trapper. This is a discussion about a rune effect, not rangers, not guardians, not DHs, and not your critique on how you felt I should have zigged when I zagged. It's a discussion about Rune Of The Trapper, and whether or not people feel that a Guardian should be able to stealth gank/rotate/disengage like a Thief or not. Also, I like this: > @"Zagerus.8675" said: > I agree. I don't think a rune should be augmenting a build to the point where it is functioning like a trait. If it was on heal skill use or something then it wouldn't be such a.. weird rune. xD ^ Not a bad idea. Even if they turned the 2s stealth/super speed down to only 1s, I'd be fine with that. That would let them keep their ability to detarget somewhat often and increase their disengage potential due to it, but it wouldn't allow them elongated Shadow Refuge like stealth ganking & disengaging which is where the problems begin.

> @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > Are you aware that a guardian can port? > > > > > > You have a reveal, and it was on your skill bar too.. so use it maybe? > > > > > > You almost killed that guarding... even with stealth... even with super speed... and the player still needed to run away... yet we need to nerf trapper runes? > > > > > > > > > > Are you aware that I already gave a full insightful explanation about the use of JI in this situation? > > > > Read the post, listen to the audio in the video. > > > > The Sic Em was on cool down my good dude, and even when you do use it, it is a 10s reveal per 28s use. > > > > The point being is that Rune Of The Trapper allowing a long enough of a disengage to even be able to walk closely enough to clip through the mountain to the necro at far, is just too much gank/rotational/disengage power for what is designed to be one of the heaviest attribute tied bruisers in the game. > > > > Any stark defense you toss at this is kind of silly. > > So you are asking the devs to nerf trapper runes based off of a video where the player using trapper runes had to run away from you to survive? > I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels. If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it. It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance. So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go. > > > > > > But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP. > > > > 1. I didn't "Face Tank" anything, I used a block skill. In fact, I had to burn every resource I had to not die, and even then I only walked away from his stealth gank with a sliver of my health pool. > > 2. I didn't "walk out of it fine" I was at like 3% health after it happened. > > > > Might want to reassess your evaluation of what happened there. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, so if you use block skills, it doesn't count as face-tanking. Nice, I'll remember that for next QQ thread about Aegis. > > And yet, by the end of the engagement (before OOC reset) you're basically back at full HP while the DH is still down at 10%. > > Again, I don't disagree with removing trapper rune, I just think it's a strange clip to try and show how OP it is. My dude you are veering quite far away from the point of the discussion about Rune Of The Trapper. If you have something else on your mind just say it, but stop beating around the bush. > @"Abyssisis.3971" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Abyssisis.3971" said: > > > Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point. > > > > Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability. > > > > Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now. > > > > DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem. > > I’m all for the removal of stealth from trapper runes/stealth in general lol, but I doubt it will solve any issues with DH as a lot of the complains are coming from it being a spamming play style with lots of burn stacks and being too easy to play for how much damage it causes. > > Is rune of the trapper broken on rangers? I never hear any complaints about rangers using it, just DH using it. It's not so hot on Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast for several reasons.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go. > > But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP. 1. I didn't "Face Tank" anything, I used a block skill. In fact, I had to burn every resource I had to not die, and even then I only walked away from his stealth gank with a sliver of my health pool. 2. I didn't "walk out of it fine" I was at like 3% health after it happened. Might want to reassess your evaluation of what happened there.

> @"Abyssisis.3971" said: > Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point. Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability. Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now. DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem.

> @"Swagger.1459" said: > Are you aware that a guardian can port? > > You have a reveal, and it was on your skill bar too.. so use it maybe? > > You almost killed that guarding... even with stealth... even with super speed... and the player still needed to run away... yet we need to nerf trapper runes? > > Are you aware that I already gave a full insightful explanation about the use of JI in this situation? Read the post, listen to the audio in the video. The Sic Em was on cool down my good dude, and even when you do use it, it is a 10s reveal per 28s use. The point being is that Rune Of The Trapper allowing a long enough of a disengage to even be able to walk closely enough to clip through the mountain to the necro at far, is just too much gank/rotational/disengage power for what is designed to be one of the heaviest attribute tied bruisers in the game. Any stark defense you toss at this is kind of silly.

I sat and 1v1'd two different people last night who were obviously using speedhack in the arena and not even trying to deny it. Hack use is starting to become normalized. It's getting to the point where people are becoming desensitized to seeing it, and thus don't come down on so harshly as they would have 2 years ago as example. In many cases I've seen, when a person is using lets say speedhack, but sucks so bad that they die constantly anyway, no one cares. The person gets ignored and often doesn't even get reported. The only time I see hacks REALLY pissing people off still, is when good players are sneaking in short bursts of speedhack use to win some competitive match, like say the final round of an AT or a match that makes the difference between someone breaking into the top 20 or falling out of it. And of course when people use absolutely game breaking hacks like telehack or flyhack, which are just too powerful for anyone to tolerate, even if it's a bad player wielding them. Unless Arenanet takes a hard stance on this stuff and starts tossing out some hard bans, we're going to see the general growing acceptance of wide used speedhack over the course of the next year here. It will become a standard part of build structures. If they don't do something about this, eventually complete bologna like telehack & flyhack will also begin to gain some level of tolerance. <- And when that happens, the game will truly be ruined with nothing left to salvage. This is no "theory" that I am talking about here. I've watched this same exact process happen to many games over the years. It's always the hack programs that nail the coffin and bury the game. You can argue about this and that and whatever you want, but why argue about if the hacks are real? I mean at this point you can quite seriously sit in the mists and watch the ffa, and just about 1 out of 15 or 20 people that drop down in there, it is quite obvious that they are using speedhack boosts or even sometimes tele/fly hacks. Anyone who claims to not be seeing this stuff, is either not paying very good attention to what's going on around them, or wanting to believe in this game's legitimacy so much that they are willing to fool themselves.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > Braindead 1 button mashers for you to use: > > > > 1. Daredevil Impaling Lotus builds > > 2. Daredevil Staff survival builds. > > 3. Flame Thrower Juggernaut Engineer builds. > > 4. Tanky Condi Mirage setups designed to abuse Infinite Horizon. > > > > Other class/builds at least require that a player uses all of their skills to be effective. The ones here in this list can seriously achieve like 75% efficiency by pushing 1 button. If you want truly braindead builds, these are the 4 to look into. > > Lol who uses impaling lotus these days, even most condi builds dont and staff survival build? U mean the old vault spam build using acrobatics which is useless now since the nerfs to the traitline and the nerf to ini on swap trait. > The braindead spam builds of today are trap gusrd/burn guard, scourge, condo re , imob druid/slb, flamethrower engi/grenade and to a way lesser degree all necros that run lich as a way to just spam autos into team fights as soon as it start to get pressured. Hey I didn't say those builds were effective. I was pointing out the ones that really actually are braindead to the point that you can literally push 1 button to access 75% efficiency rate on those builds. Things like Burn Guard/DH, Necros, Immob Druids, these builds at least require you to actually use all of your skills in some kind of a rotation.

Braindead 1 button mashers for you to use: 1. Daredevil Impaling Lotus builds 2. Daredevil Staff survival builds. 3. Flame Thrower Juggernaut Engineer builds. 4. Tanky Condi Mirage setups designed to abuse Infinite Horizon. Other class/builds at least require that a player uses all of their skills to be effective. The ones here in this list can seriously achieve like 75% efficiency by pushing 1 button. If you want truly braindead builds, these are the 4 to look into.

> @"Vombs.5917" said: > **Balance:** > -Eliminate decap builds by granting _prevent capture-point contribution_ debuff for **2** seconds upon knocking back & launching. Eh, don't like this idea. > > -Reduce non-targeted mobility of thief fixing unhealthy decap interaction with Conquest. > [infiltrator’s Arrow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow)- Requires target. Grants stealth **(3s)** on successful hit. Range increased to **1200**. This would ruin the thief class 100% completely, and bring in a plethora of other synergetic balance issues within the intra-class dynamic. Bad idea. > > -Convert all resurrection skills into healing abilities that only affect allies. > ([signet of Mercy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Mercy), [battle Standard](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Battle_Standard), [illusion of Life](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusion_of_Life), [signet of Undeath](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Undeath), [Glyph of Renewal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Renewal)) > (["Search and Rescue!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Search_and_Rescue!%22), [Glyph of the Stars](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_the_Stars), [Function Gyro](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Function_Gyro), [Toss Elixir R](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R), [Transfusion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transfusion)) > ([Arcane Resurrection](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Resurrection), [Ritual of Life](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Life), [Medic’s Feedback](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Medic%27s_Feedback)) That's too much of a conversion in year 9. I'm a fan of simply increasing the animation times of revive skills. <- That would solve 9/10 of the problems. > > -Rework instant cast damage & **CC** abilities that _immediately_ hit the target. > [Lightning Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Strike) - Next attack inflicts a lightning strike with **1** second delay. > [bewildering Ambush](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bewildering_Ambush) - Now procs off _interrupt_ instead of steal. **[10sICD]** > [Mantra of Pain](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Pain) & [Arcane Wave](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Wave) - Damage removed. Now inflicts blind **(3s)**. > [Mantra of Distraction](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Distraction), [sleight of Hand](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_Hand) & [Primal Echoes](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primal_Echoes) - Daze removed. Now _breaks enemy targeting_. Tbh the problems are really within 3 things: Shock Aura, Flashbang, Mantra of Distract. These 3 things are notorious cheese. Everything else is fine imo. > > -Convert all damage & weakness/immobilize application on **CC** traits to on _interrupt_. > ([Lightning Rod](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Rod), [body Blow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Body_Blow), [Dwarven Battle Training](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dwarven_Battle_Training), [No Escape](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/No_Escape), [Expert Examination](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expert_Examination)) Too many change suggestions. It's just immob spam. There are too many sources of random immob in the game right now. It's not even to say that these things are necessarily OP, but they are very obnoxious gameplay to deal with. When matches have too much immob & chill & cripples being tossed around, even too much passive CC, it makes the game bogged down and it feels like you're in a traffic jam. The game loses its fluid dynamic when this happens and is less fun to play. Arenanet can start by significantly reducing the durations of immobs/chills/cripples. Not only are these movement impeding effects creating a traffic jam effect on the play dynamic, but they also serve as too strong of cover condis for things like burn. > > -Applying transform ability to yourself or foe will _prevent capture-point contribution_ for their duration. > ([Lich Form](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lich_Form), [Tornado](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tornado), [Rampage](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage), [signet of Humility](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Humility), [Toss Elixir X](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_X)) I dunno about that one. Not sure how I feel about it. > > > **QoL:** > -Convert all line abilities into **rings/circles/domes**. > **Rings:** ([unsteady Ground](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unsteady_Ground)**[180]**, [Line of Warding](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Line_of_Warding)**[180]**) > **Circles:** ([Flamewall](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamewall)**[180]**, [Napalm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Napalm)**[180]**) > **Domes:** ([Wall of Reflection](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection)**[360]**, [sublime Conversion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sublime_Conversion)**[360]**, [Temporal Curtain](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temporal_Curtain)**[360]**) This would be an enormous buff to certain class/build structures. I think this would create more problems than it would solve. > > -Make must have traits for warrior & thief _baseline_ to match other profession’s elite specs 2 trait line choice variety. > ([Fast Hands](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Hands) & [Preparedness](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Preparedness)) This would be an enormous buff. Depending on the traits they added in place of the baselines, it could be balanced or create imbalance. > > -Rework all multi-projectile melee fanning abilities to work from range like [sevenshot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sevenshot). > ([Dragon’s Claw](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Claw), [Fan of Fire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fan_of_Fire), [splitblade](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Splitblade), [Poison Volley](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison_Volley)) I think these skills work fine, outside of Poison Volley which is just a wonky skill that has never worked correctly. > > -Improve combo finisher effects. > (**Whirl** produces 2x the bolts, **Projectile** effects & duration doubled, **Leap/Blast** aura duration & healing doubled) I'd take a step further than that even. I personally think the finisher/field effects need a real rework, to make these effects more important to learn to utilize. It would add skill gap to the game again, between players who did not understand how to well utilize the effects and players who had mastered them. > > -Grant movement to immobile while casting abilities. > ([Meteor Shower](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meteor_Shower), [barrage](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barrage), [True Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/True_Shot), [Kill Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot), [Pile Driver](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pile_Driver), [Holographic Shockwave](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Holographic_Shockwave), [Ring of Warding](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ring_of_Warding), [static Field](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field)) > ([Crystal Hibernation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Hibernation), [Whirling Defense](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense), [Empower](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower), [Natural Convergence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Convergence), [Fortify](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fortify)) Agreed. There are many skills that should be fixed so that they can be used while remaining mobile.