Renegade Suggested redesign

[Taobella.6597]

as it is i think Renegade is a very unpolished elite. i am going to suggest few things to improve the class you are welcome to disagree or add things you would like to see as well.

 

First off i would like All of Renegade minions to gain HP based on 50% total of revenant max hp. We will not scale toughness as well as i think that a bit to much.

Such as if a minion has 15k HP and revenant has 20k hp it become 25k minion.

 

Second off i think all of Minion summon that give special effect. should linger on a player for 5 seconds after they leave the field. ( i know this be a giant boost for renegade an would probably result in few nerfs i think overall it would result in a more smooth playstyle)

 

For the traits i do not like that 0 buff for any of the minion summons. an i feel a lot of traits just very underwhelming. should have few of them just merged together.

 

Such as Vindication grand master should merge with bold of resversal or righteous rebel can have heart piercer put together. that way you could open up few slots to add some minion buff such as maybe improved minion effect or there immune to damage for 2 seconds after being spawn.

 

this is what i feel renegade lacks it not that it bad spot it just that it feel unfinished.

 

thanks for taking time to read <3

[Virdo.1540]

Agreeing a bit.

 

Mainly in the Healthpool for minions. They should be killable, but not CC-able.

[Yasai.3549]

I don't think they should combine traits.

It will make them too powerful for a single slot.

 

They should replace or rework traits which are rarely used or underpowered instead, such as Vindication or Iron Wrought Will.

(especially Vindication, because it empowers an extremely costly and mediocre profession mechanic)

 

As for summons, I have a funny suggestion for it.

 

Why not make it similar to how Pets/Minions work for Rangers/Necromancer?

Upon activating a Summon, it will exist as a pet/minion which auto atttack chains based on the Renegade's current weapon, and upon reactivating, they will cast their abilities in the target AoE and then be put on cooldown.

 

1. This makes Summons more useful as they are now a follower which fights alongside the Renegade

2. The active abilities will no longer be interruptable in this way, but if the Summon is killed prior to activating it, the summon will be put into cooldown.

 

They won't deal extraordinary auto attack damage, but decent enough to be warranted attention.

 

For limitation, maybe each summon that is currently summoned will reserve a portion of the Energy bar, say 20%, so the Renegade can't just summon 5 summons because their Energy bar will be 100% reserved and they can only use auto attacks at that point.

 

 

 

[Clownmug.8357]

Uhh, Vindication is probably one of the best Revenant traits there are. No other profession has a might on crit (and flanking attacks) without any cooldown. Anyways, I don't think we need that power creep where most of the profession's traits do 3 or 4 different things at the same time. If that's what people want though, it'd be easier to just play as a Guardian and use spirit weapons.

[DonArkanio.6419]

Problem with Renegade isn't numbers, it's the design.

 

Whatever you do to Renegade in PvP is going to heavily affect the balance of that E-Spec, because it's whole utility bar is **summons**. Summons as a whole is a very clunky mechanic, and it can be either completely useless (against any knowledgeable player) or OP (against any inexperienced player).

 

What I think is that Summons should only work for the animation's sake. This way we can still feel like we are summoning our Warband without piling up the immobile, clunky and uninteractive so called spirits.

An example would be Ranger Warhorn 5, and Warrior Warhorn animations.

 

I don't believe this to happen, but I can only hope.

 

Also, merging Traits isn't a good idea - let's not forget these are mostly passives, so having access to 2 in 1 is pretty, if not too strong.

Now, whether other classes can do this and not be judged, is a different subject.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

The spec is fine, especially after the rework to all skills. It does excellently in PvE and also in PvP at this point. It can be okay in WvW, but I don't think a single spec necessarily needs to perform well in every game mode for it to be considered acceptable.

 

In terms of mechanics the spec is fine and it adds fairly unique gameplay that isn't directly replicated by other professions. Specs shouldn't be reworked simply because some people don't like them as long as those specs fill a niche, are not complete dead weight, and also add variety to the individual profession and the greater pool of available professions and elite specs as a whole. Renegade currently, as mentioned, performs well in several modes so are certainly not dead weight while they also fill a unique niche that adds variety to Revenant and the total roster of specializations

 

Summons also DO NOT need a health buff. Like at all. The recent nerfs to all classes left Renegade summons with so much more health, effectively, simply because people don't do as much damage as they used to. Combine that with the fact that things like Darkrazor shuts down anyone trying to attack it in melee (which are most classes) and you can easily cover your other spirits from getting blown up even in a team fight.

 

Also for anyone saying it's not performing well in PvP then they're not paying attention. Several of the last Monthly AT teams ran a Kalla/Jalis Shortbow Renegade on their teams, including the 2nd place NA team. The spec has insane bunker ability, point control, puts out consistent damage, and has great team support when played properly.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

At this point, I'm just happy there's another expac on the distant horizon so we can hopefully get a new, more interesting e-spec. Revenant is my favorite class with some of my least favorite elite specs (Renegade being #1). I can't say I really care for a rework at this point. @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" brings up a good point: it has its roles and it performs those well, and Renegade was a blessing for competitive PvE play. I just don't happen to like anything about how it was implemented. I'd rather they conserve any sort of creative energy they have towards something that actually embraces the energy and legend-swapping mechanic in an interesting way.

 

As for its role in WvW...for a while now I have been dying to try 5x Sic 'Em Soulbeasts with OWP all laying down Barrage & traited Rapid Fires while in Soulcleave's Summit. Just for science. Anyone?

[otto.5684]

I think renegade, in its current state, is an example how bad design can be brute forced into working. It is not smooth. It has glaring weakness and design failures, but it it so buffed in PvE that it trivializes everything. and since in PvP damage is close to nonexistent, the summons perform much better now. The CC summon is epic trolling.

 

I have more issues now with SB and some traits.

[Fueki.4753]

I'd rather have the Renegade Utility skills become wells.

Make them unkillable and fix the placement issues.

[Taobella.6597]

alright so you guys say i am wrong in the traits. that is fine but how could we fix the minion problem of the elite. ? i do not want to just mindlessly buff the class with out options. that just result in endless nerfs.

 

one option is to turn all the skills to upkeep skills i do like this idea. i think it a fair option. how about if we added F4 skill that next minion summon is immune to damage put it on a 10 second CD ?

[zaswer.5246]

The thing is rev is made to be a jack off all trades and even if the desighn is good the result is at most mediocre .

Just to make a comparison we have guardian , a class originaly designed (at least i supose so because its name is GUARDIAN and not god) to be a tank that can also buff with shouts or make dmg but focused in survive, now we get dh and fb two elites one focused in crit dmg and other focused around burns and buffs with mantras , what is the trick ? Well guardian has very good core weapons like gs , scepter, sword or healing wepons like hammer and staff, also it has its traits made so they conplement with elites alnost perfectly . The result is a master of all trades , you can go full power and be meta , full condi and be meta , buff with unique boons and even the healer would be meta if the druid hadnt got its spirits .

On the other hand revenant has TOO LITTLE WEAPON OPTIONS only one power weapon (sword ) because hammer now is even more shit and staff is more utility amd heal than dmg , in condi we at least have hammer/axe and short bow so condis are fine ( you can think whatever you want at least condi has a swap be it better or worse ) for heal only staff gives a little with that orbs wich are stupid (come on would it be that difgicult to just give a small area heal in the third AA instead of some orbs that some times are not even used ? , ranged weapons i think i already said it but ill repeat ,HAMMER IS TOOOOOO SLOOOOOOW ,come on just make it a bit faster or buff the dmg of those long casting skills or at the very least GIVE BACK HAMMER 2 to what it was before because now its nonsense and shortbow , well , im not a pvp player but i think pvp revs have a couple of things to say about sb skills so MAYBE you shouldt listen to them.

Now traits , revs have one trait line per legend , then invocation and then the elites that are suposed to conplement the HUGE holes the trait lines have .Now why are heralds in danger of extintion ? Dont know but maybe it is because it is only a good elite when you are playing on your own when most "high end" is in groups, i mean fractals , raid , wvw, pvp all of that is in groups and while heralds might have some spots in pvp and wvw those are very very limited , more each day , i like all the facet stuff but it is bad implemented , instead of giving some comon buffs , because fury , power and swiftness are pretty comon( and power doesnt even stack to 25 unless you trait all the power traits even with concentration wich os something other classes dont need ) so you could just give facets either rare buffs as quickness alac resistance or make those facets five unique buffs like druid spirits , and now that spirits can be moved you wouldnt even need to make those buffs weaker than druid ones ( well maybe a little bit ) this way and with a couple changes to shield you can get either a tank with unique buffs and decent dmg for a change , a herald healer like a druid but a bit different for those bored of druid and you could use this sup centered elite to make kalla more dmg based changing some traits .

For kalla... First i dont get why the summons are that weak , i mean i get you dont want them to be like necro wels but they consume OUR RESOURCE wich is energy and have BOTH CD AND AN ENERGY COST OF AROUND 25 when surprise surprise THE MAX ENERGY WE USUALY HAVE IS 75 wich means 2KALLA SKILLS GET US UNDER 20 ENERGY so we either use a weapon skillAGAIN WITH CD AND ENERGY COST or we spend the time with AA till we get UNDER 10 ENERGY TO HAVE 75 IN THE LSWAP i mean REALY? Couldnt you at least get us 100 energy in the swap when we have to loose time to get under 10 energy ?

Wich also gets me to other problem , am i the only one that allwais either dont have energy to use skills or dont have skills to spend energy ? I dont know maybe im just stupid but i think if you are going to make a class with cd and energy cost you should at least make it so it is intuitive to use one skill to spend energy if you have too much or to have a low cost skill when you are low in energy .

More than that well just to tell you all dont get me wrong i like how rev have got some changes that i think are good and im thankfull for them but that doesnt mean the havent done changes that completely trow tp the trash the class and the gameplay in some ocasions .

Also this is an opinion that you can or not share coming from someone that has been frustrated with the class for some time because i like the concept but it just feels bad playing sometimes , didnt want to disrespect

[DonArkanio.6419]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> I think renegade, in its current state, is an example how bad design can be brute forced into working. It is not smooth. It has glaring weakness and design failures, but it it so buffed in PvE that it trivializes everything. and since in PvP damage is close to nonexistent, the summons perform much better now. The CC summon is epic trolling.

>

> I have more issues now with SB and some traits.

 

Oh yeah. I've been thinking the same thing since 2017. Just because Renegade is overloaded with numbers in PvE doesn't make it a good E-Spec at all. When I played PoF Beta Weekend I knew this is going the wrong way. Stunbreak on heal, lel.

Renegade _meChAniC_ are the most bland and boring I've ever seen, and 5/7 skills being just a group buffs is laughable. Kalla's Fervor - lol? This is just another powercreep to make it stronger than it should be, with the mechanics Renegade has.

 

I just wonder - if Thief's traps could get a rework, why don't Devs dare to touch Renegade? It really seems like it's some kind of pristine, perfect and untouchable E-Spec. The only change I can recall is Bold Reversal Trait giving boons instead of a knockdown.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> The spec is fine, especially after the rework to all skills. It does excellently in PvE and also in PvP at this point. It can be okay in WvW, but I don't think a single spec necessarily needs to perform well in every game mode for it to be considered acceptable.

>

> In terms of mechanics the spec is fine and it adds fairly unique gameplay that isn't directly replicated by other professions. Specs shouldn't be reworked simply because some people don't like them as long as those specs fill a niche, are not complete dead weight, and also add variety to the individual profession and the greater pool of available professions and elite specs as a whole. Renegade currently, as mentioned, performs well in several modes so are certainly not dead weight while they also fill a unique niche that adds variety to Revenant and the total roster of specializations

>

> Summons also DO NOT need a health buff. Like at all. The recent nerfs to all classes left Renegade summons with so much more health, effectively, simply because people don't do as much damage as they used to. Combine that with the fact that things like Darkrazor shuts down anyone trying to attack it in melee (which are most classes) and you can easily cover your other spirits from getting blown up even in a team fight.

>

> Also for anyone saying it's not performing well in PvP then they're not paying attention. Several of the last Monthly AT teams ran a Kalla/Jalis Shortbow Renegade on their teams, including the 2nd place NA team. The spec has insane bunker ability, point control, puts out consistent damage, and has great team support when played properly.

 

You what mate? Renegade changed absolutely nothing about the class and just gave us the rejected love child of Wells and Phantasms. It's boring, bland, uninspired and downright lazy. No new mechanics to the class like how you use energy, no unique skills that are actually unique and not mashed together versions of other skills, half of them will fail under normal playing conditions like a rock or lip on the ground, shortbow is clunky and straight up badly designed ( hence the extremely low cooldowns).

 

What did remegade really give us? 3 F skills and a lazy self buff. It's by far the worst designed spec, even now after all the changes. It was an insult on release.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > The spec is fine, especially after the rework to all skills. It does excellently in PvE and also in PvP at this point. It can be okay in WvW, but I don't think a single spec necessarily needs to perform well in every game mode for it to be considered acceptable.

> >

> > In terms of mechanics the spec is fine and it adds fairly unique gameplay that isn't directly replicated by other professions. Specs shouldn't be reworked simply because some people don't like them as long as those specs fill a niche, are not complete dead weight, and also add variety to the individual profession and the greater pool of available professions and elite specs as a whole. Renegade currently, as mentioned, performs well in several modes so are certainly not dead weight while they also fill a unique niche that adds variety to Revenant and the total roster of specializations

> >

> > Summons also DO NOT need a health buff. Like at all. The recent nerfs to all classes left Renegade summons with so much more health, effectively, simply because people don't do as much damage as they used to. Combine that with the fact that things like Darkrazor shuts down anyone trying to attack it in melee (which are most classes) and you can easily cover your other spirits from getting blown up even in a team fight.

> >

> > Also for anyone saying it's not performing well in PvP then they're not paying attention. Several of the last Monthly AT teams ran a Kalla/Jalis Shortbow Renegade on their teams, including the 2nd place NA team. The spec has insane bunker ability, point control, puts out consistent damage, and has great team support when played properly.

>

> You what mate? Renegade changed absolutely nothing about the class and just gave us the rejected love child of Wells and Phantasms. It's boring, bland, uninspired and downright lazy. No new mechanics to the class like how you use energy, no unique skills that are actually unique and not mashed together versions of other skills, half of them will fail under normal playing conditions like a rock or lip on the ground, shortbow is clunky and straight up badly designed ( hence the extremely low cooldowns).

>

> What did remegade really give us? 3 F skills and a lazy self buff. It's by far the worst designed spec, even now after all the changes. It was an insult on release.

 

Renegade plays differently and does add to the class regardless of your opinions on it; that’s just objective fact since it does not play the exact same as Core or Herald and has different sets of advantages and disadvantages compared to both of those. It provides new, better/different ways to support, stronger condition and power damage, and adds the summon ritualist-esque gameplay which is unique.

 

And most of your critiques here could be used against like half of the elite specs. What does dragon hunter really change for example? Oh right, 3 different virtue skills, no major mechanic changes...Not every elite spec needs to be some sort of massive overhaul of core mechanics on par with Weaver or Firebrand.

 

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t provide additional ways to play Revenant that are unique and niche, it doesn’t mean it’s not a viable specialization in and of itself, and it doesn’t mean that other people besides yourself don’t enjoy it.

 

Some of you want big changes to this spec, but it’s important to remember **big changes DO NOT equal better changes necessarily,** so I’d rather they leave it as is (which is completely fine, strong, and workable even if hated by some) and spend the dev time working on fine tuning the most likely upcoming 3rd elite spec.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > The spec is fine, especially after the rework to all skills. It does excellently in PvE and also in PvP at this point. It can be okay in WvW, but I don't think a single spec necessarily needs to perform well in every game mode for it to be considered acceptable.

> > >

> > > In terms of mechanics the spec is fine and it adds fairly unique gameplay that isn't directly replicated by other professions. Specs shouldn't be reworked simply because some people don't like them as long as those specs fill a niche, are not complete dead weight, and also add variety to the individual profession and the greater pool of available professions and elite specs as a whole. Renegade currently, as mentioned, performs well in several modes so are certainly not dead weight while they also fill a unique niche that adds variety to Revenant and the total roster of specializations

> > >

> > > Summons also DO NOT need a health buff. Like at all. The recent nerfs to all classes left Renegade summons with so much more health, effectively, simply because people don't do as much damage as they used to. Combine that with the fact that things like Darkrazor shuts down anyone trying to attack it in melee (which are most classes) and you can easily cover your other spirits from getting blown up even in a team fight.

> > >

> > > Also for anyone saying it's not performing well in PvP then they're not paying attention. Several of the last Monthly AT teams ran a Kalla/Jalis Shortbow Renegade on their teams, including the 2nd place NA team. The spec has insane bunker ability, point control, puts out consistent damage, and has great team support when played properly.

> >

> > You what mate? Renegade changed absolutely nothing about the class and just gave us the rejected love child of Wells and Phantasms. It's boring, bland, uninspired and downright lazy. No new mechanics to the class like how you use energy, no unique skills that are actually unique and not mashed together versions of other skills, half of them will fail under normal playing conditions like a rock or lip on the ground, shortbow is clunky and straight up badly designed ( hence the extremely low cooldowns).

> >

> > What did remegade really give us? 3 F skills and a lazy self buff. It's by far the worst designed spec, even now after all the changes. It was an insult on release.

>

> Renegade plays differently and does add to the class regardless of your opinions on it; that’s just objective fact since it does not play the exact same as Core or Herald and has different sets of advantages and disadvantages compared to both of those. It provides new, better/different ways to support, stronger condition and power damage, and adds the summon ritualist-esque gameplay which is unique.

>

> And most of your critiques here could be used against like half of the elite specs. What does dragon hunter really change for example? Oh right, 3 different virtue skills, no major mechanic changes...Not every elite spec needs to be some sort of massive overhaul of core mechanics on par with Weaver or Firebrand.

>

> Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t provide additional ways to play Revenant that are unique and niche, it doesn’t mean it’s not a viable specialization in and of itself, and it doesn’t mean that other people besides yourself don’t enjoy it.

>

> Some of you want big changes to this spec, but it’s important to remember **big changes DO NOT equal better changes necessarily,** so I’d rather they leave it as is (which is completely fine, strong, and workable even if hated by some) and spend the dev time working on fine tuning the most likely upcoming 3rd elite spec.

 

Renegade plays differently how? You drop AoE and press F skills? That's not unique to the class at all, and the only advantages it brings is alacrity and Kalla Elite, which alacrity was done by Ventari in a more unique way. No, it's not objective fact. I can play renegade the same way as I do core just without Kalla and Shortbow, which is terrible too. Core can do alacrity, healing, condi damage, and power damage, Renegade just tacks on more alacrity and has a lazy buff in Kalla's Fervor. Only real unique thing it offers anyone else is Soulcleave Summit which is actually really interesting.

 

It's strong because of numbers and alacrity, and if you take away the latter it would drop in a heartbeat as a support. Other Especs being lazy isn't an excuse either. The whole concept of especs was to change how a class functions and bring something unique to the table. Herald was a package deal with the class and was probably a core spec at first, and Renegade changed nothing either.

 

At least Dragonhunter changed the class mechanics a bit. Virtues at least function different for DH compared to core guard while we got...nothing. Same old same old. It's not even that we got no big changes, we got no changes at all.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > The spec is fine, especially after the rework to all skills. It does excellently in PvE and also in PvP at this point. It can be okay in WvW, but I don't think a single spec necessarily needs to perform well in every game mode for it to be considered acceptable.

> > > >

> > > > In terms of mechanics the spec is fine and it adds fairly unique gameplay that isn't directly replicated by other professions. Specs shouldn't be reworked simply because some people don't like them as long as those specs fill a niche, are not complete dead weight, and also add variety to the individual profession and the greater pool of available professions and elite specs as a whole. Renegade currently, as mentioned, performs well in several modes so are certainly not dead weight while they also fill a unique niche that adds variety to Revenant and the total roster of specializations

> > > >

> > > > Summons also DO NOT need a health buff. Like at all. The recent nerfs to all classes left Renegade summons with so much more health, effectively, simply because people don't do as much damage as they used to. Combine that with the fact that things like Darkrazor shuts down anyone trying to attack it in melee (which are most classes) and you can easily cover your other spirits from getting blown up even in a team fight.

> > > >

> > > > Also for anyone saying it's not performing well in PvP then they're not paying attention. Several of the last Monthly AT teams ran a Kalla/Jalis Shortbow Renegade on their teams, including the 2nd place NA team. The spec has insane bunker ability, point control, puts out consistent damage, and has great team support when played properly.

> > >

> > > You what mate? Renegade changed absolutely nothing about the class and just gave us the rejected love child of Wells and Phantasms. It's boring, bland, uninspired and downright lazy. No new mechanics to the class like how you use energy, no unique skills that are actually unique and not mashed together versions of other skills, half of them will fail under normal playing conditions like a rock or lip on the ground, shortbow is clunky and straight up badly designed ( hence the extremely low cooldowns).

> > >

> > > What did remegade really give us? 3 F skills and a lazy self buff. It's by far the worst designed spec, even now after all the changes. It was an insult on release.

> >

> > Renegade plays differently and does add to the class regardless of your opinions on it; that’s just objective fact since it does not play the exact same as Core or Herald and has different sets of advantages and disadvantages compared to both of those. It provides new, better/different ways to support, stronger condition and power damage, and adds the summon ritualist-esque gameplay which is unique.

> >

> > And most of your critiques here could be used against like half of the elite specs. What does dragon hunter really change for example? Oh right, 3 different virtue skills, no major mechanic changes...Not every elite spec needs to be some sort of massive overhaul of core mechanics on par with Weaver or Firebrand.

> >

> > Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t provide additional ways to play Revenant that are unique and niche, it doesn’t mean it’s not a viable specialization in and of itself, and it doesn’t mean that other people besides yourself don’t enjoy it.

> >

> > Some of you want big changes to this spec, but it’s important to remember **big changes DO NOT equal better changes necessarily,** so I’d rather they leave it as is (which is completely fine, strong, and workable even if hated by some) and spend the dev time working on fine tuning the most likely upcoming 3rd elite spec.

>

> Renegade plays differently how? You drop AoE and press F skills? That's not unique to the class at all, and the only advantages it brings is alacrity and Kalla Elite,

 

Renegade AoEs are some of the largest in the game and the summon mechanic is unique. They’re not wells. They’re not shades. They’re not phantasms. They’re not spirit weapons. They’re their own unique thing in and of themselves and have their own quirks. Sure the “drop AoE and press F skills” is found on every profession to some extent, but that’s an oversimplification in an attempt to fit your narrative so I’m not going to take that argument very seriously. If that’s your argument you might as well critique the entire game then.

 

>which alacrity was done by Ventari in a more unique way.

 

Less effective way, even if more unique. But let’s be real any alacrity effect in the game is fairly unique by definition since alacrity is only given by two classes.

 

>No, it's not objective fact. I can play renegade the same way as I do core just without Kalla and Shortbow, which is terrible too. Core can do alacrity, healing, condi damage, and power damage.

 

It is objective fact. It objectively adds new ways to play the class. Core has no way to sustain 10 man alacrity or easy alacrity. Core has no way to do strong, sustained range condi damage (no, banish enchantment + abyssal chill does not count as strong sustain range damage). Core doesn’t have the option to have two legends for healing. Core doesn’t have the option to have two legends for condition damage. Core doesn’t have the massive amount of AoE point holding potential of Renegade. **Whether or not you choose to engage with the additional mechanics added does not mean they do not exist.** You can’t just ignore 60-70% of a specialization And say “SEE, I can play Core Rev as a Renegade wow Renegade literally changes nothing it’s the same.” Profession mechanics don’t have to change drastically if they change the class in other areas, which Renegade does.

 

Also if you’re rolling up on renegade with your core build on expecting to “play the same way” hope you’re not going to press F2 expecting 25 energy and a boon ?. (Definitely don’t press F3 or F4 either). Hope you didn’t need any of those core traits that you’re missing now that you had to toss a line for Ren as well. These are just baseline changes and not even what the entire spec offers and there’s already several differences.

Dragon hunter is totally the same too right if I load up Some core weapons and don’t use my Active profession mechanics. Oh and soulbeast too if I just don’t merge pet. Same with Druid who needs to press that weird glowing CA button? And Scrapper should just be renamed Core Engi 2.0 because let’s be honest function gyro is just there to be ignored.

 

> It's strong because of numbers and alacrity, and if you take away the latter it would drop in a heartbeat as a support.

 

This is Wrong.

 

First, every class and every skill is strong or not “by the numbers.” Tweak the numbers too low or make it too costly and literally any skill or mechanic will fall below average and into dis-use. So that’s a non-argument.

 

Second, it’s strong as a support *not only because of alacrity,* but because it adds Breakrazor, Darkrazor, and Soulcleave as well which makes Kalla THE BEST legend to pair with Ventari for healing/support in PvE and an amazing supportive legend even on non-healing focused builds. And I’d argue based on the recent monthly AT Kalla paired with Jalis is the best team support combo currently available to Revenant in sPvP, which is a niche Revenant has been missing in sPvP *for a long time.*

 

 

> Other Especs being lazy isn't an excuse either. The whole concept of especs was to change how a class functions and bring something unique to the table. Herald was a package deal with the class and was probably a core spec at first, and Renegade changed nothing either.

 

I don’t think Revenant should be looked at in the same lens as other professions when it comes to Elite Specs due to how it’s core mechanic works. Legend swap is both our energy management button and our utility swap. The two are inextricably linked so messing with that in a major way is unlikely. Worth noting nearly all the resource based class mechanics have remained fairly consistent across all elite specs that have them. **It’s fairly clear that the “changing how the class functions and bringing something unique to the table” for both of revenant’s elite specs is largely hyper focused on how the new Legend itself changes gameplay** (in addition to the added/changed Profession mechanics and additional weapons). Maybe that will change in the future, for espec 3, but it doesn’t need to change for either Herald or Renegade currently.

 

I also don’t think all Elite specializations need to be balance nightmare level changes on the scope of Weaver and Firebrand and that assuming they should be is unrealistic

[Taobella.6597]

to recap this topic was not to say one class is better then another or that it need buff or nerfs this was to say that renegade play style itself feels unfinished.

[Kulvar.1239]

I like current iteration of Renegade. The only thing I dislike is summons CC susceptibility.