Exedore.6320 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 > @"darren.1064" said: > I don't know if this has already been said, but condition damage should be scaled down with the amount of toughness a class/build has. If that was done, then why even have condition damage as a separate stat from power? You could just combine them. The problem stems from ANet never seeming to follow to a consistent design role for condition damage: should power be primary and condition damage secondary (an alternative to precision + ferocity) - or should both power and conditions be primary? Looking at the core game and skills, it seems that the former was the original design, but the latter is what seems to be in practice now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren.1064 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 > @"Exedore.6320" said: > > @"darren.1064" said: > > I don't know if this has already been said, but condition damage should be scaled down with the amount of toughness a class/build has. > If that was done, then why even have condition damage as a separate stat from power? You could just combine them. > > The problem stems from ANet never seeming to follow to a consistent design role for condition damage: should power be primary and condition damage secondary (an alternative to precision + ferocity) - or should both power and conditions be primary? Looking at the core game and skills, it seems that the former was the original design, but the latter is what seems to be in practice now. I see them as separate entities. I believe that Vitality was supposed to be more proactive for countering power builds and toughness should have followed suite and been implemented to reduce condition damage after all condition damage buffs were implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugchriss.2046 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 > @"anduriell.6280" said: > We add something which nerfs conditions, so we give some counter to counterplay that. Why stop there? Why stop to the counter to a counterplay? There should also be a counter to the of counter of the counterplay....for more fairness. Just like stealth->revealed->unrevealed->? or damage->block->unblockable-> ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantasylife.7981 Posted April 23, 2020 Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > power is much more dominant > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantasylife.7981 Posted April 23, 2020 Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 I see some people have posted condition isnt a big issue is "only one application high stacks" , yes some classes apply only 1 condition primarily, but the issue is how easily it can be reapply a very good player will know when to even unload many stacks so it won't be condi clense. You have to undertand most classes have average 1 or 2 condi clense to remove multiple applications stacked as an utility. theres multiple conditions you want to remove otherwise you take free damage or get weakend, immobilized, etc at some point you use all your condi clense and the applications are still coming, remember all damage skills in 1st and 2nd weapon or even some utilities just provide conditions. To make it simple 10 damge condition application skills vs 2 condi clenses. This is for 1v1 now if you are in a group fight is more easy to apply conditions lots of them especially if you are close combat and you have to stand on them otherwise you can't do damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > power is much more dominant > > > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. > not saying its a problem just stating that power is more dominant rev, war, guard, engi, thief, ele, ranger are power dominant only nec and mes are condi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 I don't get how people come to think conditions are being overpowered now. There are few viable condition builds out there. And then - agreed - some unfun mechanics like perma immobilize drooids, but... those are troll builds. Like, one single support tempest on the team renders almost all condition builds useless if specced accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > power is much more dominant > > > > > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. > > > > not saying its a problem just stating that power is more dominant > rev, war, guard, engi, thief, ele, ranger are power dominant > only nec and mes are condi Are we playing the same game. Guards has several variations of condi, usually it is FB with burns but it can be core or DH with burns. Condi rev is the better then the power this meta and there is renegade cancer going on. Burn Weaver has been meta for several seasons now. Ranger has that condi trap set up also. Actually If you combine any condi build with necro it just works . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > power is much more dominant > > > > > > > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. > > > > > > > not saying its a problem just stating that power is more dominant > > rev, war, guard, engi, thief, ele, ranger are power dominant > > only nec and mes are condi > Are we playing the same game. > Guards has several variations of condi, usually it is FB with burns but it can be core or DH with burns. > Condi rev is the better then the power this meta and there is renegade cancer going on. > Burn Weaver has been meta for several seasons now. > Ranger has that condi trap set up also. > Actually If you combine any condi build with necro it just works . I see more power builds personally, actually the only condi builds that I see is 1 mesmers mostly mirage, but I see some power core players too, but its more condi 2 condi core necro, but i would call it 50/50 because not only some people play power core but also there is plenty of power reapers. 3 burn guards, mostly core some DH, rare to find FB. everything else is power, power rev, power holo, power rangers ( pun intented ), power thiefs,lr weavers or just support tempests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > power is much more dominant > > > > > > > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. > > > > > > > not saying its a problem just stating that power is more dominant > > rev, war, guard, engi, thief, ele, ranger are power dominant > > only nec and mes are condi > Are we playing the same game. > Guards has several variations of condi, usually it is FB with burns but it can be core or DH with burns. > Condi rev is the better then the power this meta and there is renegade cancer going on. > Burn Weaver has been meta for several seasons now. > Ranger has that condi trap set up also. > Actually If you combine any condi build with necro it just works . why would we not play the same game - On different ratings and even region people play different builds topic starter based his analysis on high gold/plat rating, what i said is based on the meta, what's played in the highest tier you can watch the monthly tournament and see that the winners on NA used power FB, power weaver and power herald, along with power thief and condi nec on EU power FB, power herald, power holo, power thief and condi mes won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megilandil.7506 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > I been testing condition classes for a lot lately 2 weeks Aprox, because condition is more dominant on this meta, and I come to a conclusion why condition is very powerful. If you have any input please let me know, new knowledge is welcome I could perhaps apply it to my testing. > > Reasons Condition is strong! > > 1. Not Enough condi clense on some classes > > 2. They stack quite easily, fast and can easily be reapply instantly > > Solutions! > > So solutions to balance condition dmg would be 1) give classes more condi clense and keep the damage same or 2) nerf condition damage in general by half while maintaining the clenses currently. > > The classes I have tested in Platinum and Gold are (ONLY) Condi Mesmer, Guardian, Revenant and Ranger. These classes condition damage is quite powerful and easily applicable to everyone. I was not disappointed by none of these classes high damage. > > > > P.S I tried warrior, but it seems that currently warrior can be easily shut down at the moment I felt like this class also lacks condi clense for been a close combat only class. > > We have 2 issues with condition: > * spike damage in some builds > * easy application. > > The easiest way to solve the issue is to implement a condition debuff when the player cleanse any condition. This debuff could look the same icon as the original condition but purple, similar to the food debuff. > > While this debuf is active it would avoid the condition to be reapplied on the player. > > This debuff would have non stackable duration, defining the duration as 1s for every stack the player has. > > This will accomplish the following: > > * It will include a Risk vs Reward mechanic, the player can choose to spike the target with multiple conditions and high amount of stacks at once at the risk of being cleansed and stay immune to their damage for a period of time or choose to apply constant but low amount of conditions keeping in mind the target won't will always be affected by some. > * Add a depth to condition combat and active gameplay: The player has to keep an eye in the debuffs the target has as it can waste a spike because using it in the worst moment. > * It will balance in an organic way the flow of the battle. High spikes can be denied giving the target to counterplay heavy condition builds. > * This can be implemented in PvE as well, keeping an holistic design. > * Future specializations may have an elite which removes this debuff. > * No damaging conditions will be mostly unaffected as those stack in duration. Immunity after cleanse would be 1s for each of them. > * No other changes are necessary, no reworks in condition damage no reworks in full classes. > > There is already the technology as shown in game that shows this is achievable. and why not make all heals put a barrier to soak the next incoming power damage, its basically the same. I think the major problem in condi is how easily and quick , some clases can stack it with autos with low visual tells, my think is that condi not need to be nerfed, need to be moved to a more skillfull play style, autos can not create new conditions only stack preexistent ones, you need to create the firts stacks it with a relevant CD and after stack with autos , ofcourse power damage base in autos of condi weapons will need a litlle increase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teb.6980 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 My two cents on this is that condi-burst (i.e. applying 7-10 different condis or just a burn/torment 12stack) which can easily kill in 4 seconds is totally against the new philosophy. I find myself gearing and allocating utilities to cleanse all condis, and still, with e.g. a 1.25second daze from mesmer plus the aforementioned condibomb, my character is already at 35% health after cleansing. No counterplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens.9854 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 The whole discussion is bizarre to me. The reason we have cleanse meta is not because of bleed/burn/torment/poison. Nobody would complain if that's all they had to deal with. Its because condi builds absolutely vomit every other nondamaging condition on top of those (with extra duration often) and make the game MISERABLE to play and damaging condis a die roll to cleanse, unless you cleanse massive amounts. Nuke nondamaging condi application from orbit. Shave cleanses to a reasonable level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"ens.9854" said: > The whole discussion is bizarre to me. The reason we have cleanse meta is not because of bleed/burn/torment/poison. Nobody would complain if that's all they had to deal with. Its because condi builds absolutely vomit every other nondamaging condition on top of those (with extra duration often) and make the game MISERABLE to play and damaging condis a die roll to cleanse, unless you cleanse massive amounts. > > Nuke nondamaging condi application from orbit. Shave cleanses to a reasonable level. Lmao yes nerf non damaging condis, those are whsts wrecking people fast. Not only leave damaging conditions like burning 4-5k tic damage but shave cleanses, 4head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ens.9854 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Lmao yes nerf non damaging condis, those are whsts wrecking people fast. Not only leave damaging conditions like burning 4-5k tic damage but shave cleanses, 4head Do you really believe we need MORE cleansing in the game like OP suggests? Then we will be back to condi players whining that their damage can be completely invalidated. The idea is to undo the creep that has already occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"ens.9854" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Lmao yes nerf non damaging condis, those are whsts wrecking people fast. Not only leave damaging conditions like burning 4-5k tic damage but shave cleanses, 4head > > Do you really believe we need MORE cleansing in the game like OP suggests? Then we will be back to condi players whining that their damage can be completely invalidated. The idea is to undo the creep that has already occurred. No cleanse is fine, we need the damage per tic lowered on some conditions like burning and we'd be ok. Condis should cause its dps over time, not tic for burst lv dps over time, it absurd what burning dots do right now as a example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 > @"Teb.6980" said: > My two cents on this is that condi-burst (i.e. applying 7-10 different condis or just a burn/torment 12stack) which can easily kill in 4 seconds is totally against the new philosophy. I find myself gearing and allocating utilities to cleanse all condis, and still, with e.g. a 1.25second daze from mesmer plus the aforementioned condibomb, my character is already at 35% health after cleansing. No counterplay time to learn why you got hit, no ammout of cleansing is gonna undo 10k rapid fire you took, you learn how to avoid it. Condi bursts exist for a reason, if mes dedicates 10 skills to shit condition on you and you fail do dodge you should not be able to cleanse all of it with impunity, be happy you didnt die, if you let rev whack you for 2s for free you WILL die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 seriously people, I play mesmer build that legit can cleanse 1 condition every 24s, and eat conditions with F4 invlunerability. and its power that gets me not conditions, can burn guards apply so much burning withing 1-2s that I die? yes, but I learn to avoid it to the point that I can deal with it, burn guard? keep distance and have fast reaction for their tp, avoid contact when they lit themselves on fire etc etc, learn to counter things, you will be much better in a long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firebeard.1746 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 > @"Exedore.6320" said: > In general, I've never seen a huge condition damage problem in platinum. In your particular examples, a lot of it can be chalked up to poor use of condition removal rather than condition removal being too weak. For example, guardian and condi rev tend to stack a single condition very quickly and somewhat avoidably with a moderate cooldown. Using condi clear before they achieve that stack is mostly a waste. > > Where I have seen as issues are: > * A team of mostly condition damage classes. This overwhelms condi removal and you don't know ahead of time to swap skills around. > * Ranger root + bleed builds. Stack a ton of bleeds with cover conditions on top of pulsing root and stun. It's not strong outside of that, but that combo is extremely frustrating if you can't teleport out of it. No. I've gotten as much as 10 stacks burn, cleansed, only to get hit with it again while the guardian goes immortal. It's too spammable and that's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantasylife.7981 Posted April 24, 2020 Author Share Posted April 24, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > power is much more dominant > > > > > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. > > > > not saying its a problem just stating that power is more dominant > rev, war, guard, engi, thief, ele, ranger are power dominant > only nec and mes are condi I like to address every class you mentioned here. 1.Rev has shiro power which is overshadow by condition herald mallix. 2. Guardian has Burn guard and DH Burn not DH power, DH power is only good against bad players who get caught. and also has Firebrand/Symbalbrand which are primarily 2nd damage condition not power. Next, 3. Thief yes I agreed it can be very annoying to play against but the heavy burst thief is deadeye and always used as a side or +1 and it gets melted immediatly you can only pull this off with a very very glass cannon build. Now 4. ele Tempest meta is small dmg comes primarily from condi and weaver is 50/50 w/ berserker amulet and is only a 1v1 side noder? 5. Ranger yes I state this has to be one of the dominant Power classes w/ Revenant which gets shadow by mallix. Now I'm not giving you BS or anything this is reality atm. I like to understand your point of view, but I can't grasp things like warrior being powerful is easily shut down has no utility I imagine being able to land its telegraph Arcing slice in anything above Gold3+ this class does zero damage gets blinded and weekend can't condi clense . Also Elementalist main meta build is tempest which provides sustain, healing and condition. If you see what kill you after being cleave or check the combat log you realise you died slowly to condition application not 400 random damage hits from Tempest. Most power builds are only viable for 1v1 anyways. The game Ranked sPvP is set for 5v5 I imagine they are balancing for group play. In group play Conditions just stack left and right in a AoE range of above 360+ most of the time without really having to land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Fantasylife.7981" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > power is much more dominant > > > > > > > mayority of the classes their condition build/specifilization seems to be dominant and some classes are only viable with condition. Aside from Deadeye, Soulbeast, and power revenant which has ofc Mallix condi rev has a very strong or even stronger option. why do you believe power to be the primarily problem? Dragon hunter traps is easily shut down so I don't find that a viable option unless we are speaking of Silver rating low Gold Rating newly reached perhaps. Most balance I suggest should be scale and determined by high Gold and Plat elo which I believe most players are or want to be part off. > > > > > > > not saying its a problem just stating that power is more dominant > > rev, war, guard, engi, thief, ele, ranger are power dominant > > only nec and mes are condi > > I like to address every class you mentioned here. 1.Rev has shiro power which is overshadow by condition herald mallix. 2. Guardian has Burn guard and DH Burn not DH power, DH power is only good against bad players who get caught. and also has Firebrand/Symbalbrand which are primarily 2nd damage condition not power. Next, 3. Thief yes I agreed it can be very annoying to play against but the heavy burst thief is deadeye and always used as a side or +1 and it gets melted immediatly you can only pull this off with a very very glass cannon build. Now 4. ele Tempest meta is small dmg comes primarily from condi and weaver is 50/50 w/ berserker amulet and is only a 1v1 side noder? 5. Ranger yes I state this has to be one of the dominant Power classes w/ Revenant which gets shadow by mallix. Now I'm not giving you BS or anything this is reality atm. I like to understand your point of view, but I can't grasp things like warrior being powerful is easily shut down has no utility I imagine being able to land its telegraph Arcing slice in anything above Gold3+ this class does zero damage gets blinded and weekend can't condi clense . Also Elementalist main meta build is tempest which provides sustain, healing and condition. If you see what kill you after being cleave or check the combat log you realise you died slowly to condition application not 400 random damage hits from Tempest. Most power builds are only viable for 1v1 anyways. The game Ranked sPvP is set for 5v5 I imagine they are balancing for group play. In group play Conditions just stack left and right in a AoE range of above 360+ most of the time without really having to land. ive mentioned above what the top players used, which is power rev over mallyx and power fb over condi fb, burn guard or w/e tempest is support, weaver is 100% power our interpetation of dominant might be different but what im trying to say is that the best viable option is power, except if you are nec or mes there is more condi builds than before the patch yes, but power builds are still stronger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anduriell.6280 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > ive mentioned above what the top players used, which is power rev over mallyx and power fb over condi fb, burn guard or w/e > tempest is support, weaver is 100% power That's probably because of personal choice as everybody despise condi builds as being braindead and because the tanky condi amulets were removed.This means the conditions are overtuned and it could get out of hand as soon as players find a way to make condi builds tankier in PvP. In WvW they already are broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Nerfing condi by 50% would have serious repercussions on the game and make even more people quit. Classes like necro already aren't as bursty condi wise as other classes, and they use the condi as well for carapace. Now I don't know how guardian works with their burns, I know a lot complain, but please make absolutely sure you get this right. Also agree with aliam on this, plus this would probably hit classes like mirage condi too hard, and its a vague broad description, so please try again with more description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Nerfing condi by 50% would have serious repercussions on the game and make even more people quit. > > Classes like necro already aren't as bursty condi wise as other classes, and they use the condi as well for carapace. > > Now I don't know how guardian works with their burns, I know a lot complain, but please make absolutely sure you get this right. > > Also agree with aliam on this, plus this would probably hit classes like mirage condi too hard, and its a vague broad description, so please try again with more description. > > > relax, this is salt post about someone too lazy to look at their buff/debuff bar. someone that doesnt wanna learn. at best devs might nerf some burning from guard but thats about it, conditions are fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drennon.7190 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Make protection reduce condition damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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