Let's help the Dev create the Revenant Elite we want.

[Yasai.3549]

Rather than Elites, I want more weapon options and some weapon reworks.

 

Right now we are playing merry-go-wack-a-musical-chairs with the Devs, using whatever limited weapon and Legend combinations we have to cook up some viable build.

 

Something looks OP in the top tier of PvP?

_Anet : IT'S NERF OR NOTHING_

 

We're gonna run out of chairs (aka weapons or Legends) to play this game with the Devs soon, and they will just leave them in a broken state for an unknown amount of time.

 

Elite =/= new shiny new toy which will breathe life into Rev

 

Elite = new shiny new toy which will be the focus of balance issues while Rev continues to be hammered into the dirt.

 

[zaswer.5246]

 

> Power weapon? Yes.

> DPS weapon? Actually no, in my opinion.

>

> A bruiser weapon with some power damage and alot of emphasis on defense would make more sense in my opinion. Looking at the elite specs for all classes, I roughly seperate them in 3 roles.

> Support (examples: scourge, tempest)

> DPS (examples: holosmith, reaper)

> Bruiser (examples: daredevil, scrapper)

>

> Revenant has the support and dps roles covered, what is missing is the bruiser role. So I would prefer that revenant gets a weapon that has some built in defensive capabilities.

 

Sorry but disagrre in some points here.

1. You cant separate elites only on one rol , i mean you cant say all tempest are suport, or all firebrands are condi, ok some elites like reaper or druid are indeed only able to do one thing but that doesnt work everywhere .

2. Sorry but i dont get the bruiser part of daredevil, i mean yes daredevil has a bit more life than core thief or deadeye but a bruiser is a bulk with some dmg , the closest clases to a bruiser would be warrior with that huge dmg and base health , nigro with shroud and then guardian or maybe a revenant , but daredevil, believe it or not, is a burst dps class that can get suport from invis in certain places , it is not a bruiser .

3. Now for the "suport and dps rols covered" sorry but i dont completely agree and i have to explain why , for de sup part , well , herald doesnt really have buffs that would make it desireable over other clases , it has power , fury, regen, and movement speed , if you want that you could use a firebrand or a warrior and get those or better buffs and be more self sufficient too, if a herald wants to give good boons need to use all its traits for it and its a huge loss in fact , and for a dps build herald its similar but you dont even get a decent dmg , for renegade its a bit similar and diferent at the same time , you can get a huge alacrity source and permanent on top of that , also some power and stability, that makes rene incredibly broken a an alacrity source class but hugely handicaps the class as you only use 1 trait and 1 buton for a 10 man alacrity with a decent dmg for a sup , that makes a power dps renegade have an incredibly low dps because increasing it would increase alac rene dps and people would get mad and cry and stuff so we get a great sup but almost the lowest dps class, now for condi rene is a good elite but its not like fb , mirage and stuff that have huge bursts , rene needs a bit of time to apply condis and stack them so even if the dmg is good, and i like rene condi , it is not the condi best build. What i mean is we have a sup herald that in most cases is not needed and a renegade that covers sup great if its alac needed but fails on other boons and with a good condi build that is not the best but is good and worth using .

4. Now with all of this said i think you can see we need a selfish dps elite , it would be best if it were power as its the only thing we fail now , and no we dont need OTHER suport or a tank or OTHER condi, if we got an elite that could be either power or condi it would be good but the needed one is just power , for a full tank build we have jalis and glint as legends that can reduce the dmg received and we can use staff and sword shield( even when shield skills are bad ) , and if we want to heal we have ventari and kalla .

In short we only need a full selfish and bursty dps elite , dont need to get to 40k dps but at least something that let us get in the middle table of the dps builds , or even if we got the lowest dps class at least make it that the difference in dps is not 10k so having assasin presence actualy balance that self dmg loss

[Scoobaniec.9561]

A selfish dps elite spec could do both power and condi like berserker. Just saying

[Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629]

> @"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

> A selfish dps elite spec could do both power and condi like berserker. Just saying

 

Why is our community so hung up on being hybrid? A hybrid literally puts you into AT BEST the middle of the pack. Elite specs are suppose to be specialized to makes good at something why would you ever want that to be mediocre? Haven't we tried that route enough? Both Kalla and Glint have been hybrid and they both are classed as Support with Kalla only being a dps for very specific bosses.

 

That and getting silly gimmicky weapons or specs that already exist. Its like very few people are actually aware of our class and what it can do. I really want to play and love Rev but over the last couple of days just look at the jumbled mess of suggestions we give the devs its no wonder the class is such a hot mess. At this point I'm just waiting for the expansion we get another shitty Elite spec and just gonna cut my losses and go War / Mes / Ele.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> Why is our community so hung up on being hybrid?

 

I guess because more options is more interesting.

 

> @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> A hybrid literally puts you into AT BEST the middle of the pack. Elite specs are suppose to be specialized to makes good at something why would you ever want that to be mediocre?

 

Elementalist says hi.

 

You know, a class whom has equally viable Power and Condi builds for both their E-Specs.

 

Since, it's not particularly hard to enable Power/Condi hybrid builds. You just have to have access to Power scaling damage and Condi's with traits that aren't completely specific in nature (I.e. Thief E-Specs being only Power based damage modifiers). Kalla, while a flawed E-Spec in overall design, at least does this by the way of how Kalla's Fervor

buffs both Ferocity and Condi damage meaning it scales the damage of both Power and Condi builds.

 

> @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> Haven't we tried that route enough? Both Kalla and Glint have been hybrid and they both are classed as Support with Kalla only being a dps for very specific bosses.

 

The issue with Kalla and Glint isn't that they're inherently Hybrid, but that they are a mix of 2 completely different roles. Support and DPS hybrid always makes for a mediocre choice where it often results in mostly the Support build (See: Banner Warrior, Boon Chrono, Heal Druid etc)

 

Whereas, being hybrid in Power and Condi means that whichever way you slice it, you're a DPS. You just have different flavours.

 

> @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> That and getting silly gimmicky weapons or specs that already exist.

 

Well... As far as weapons go... An Elite Spec that is hybrid Power/Condi doesn't necessarily need to have a hybrid weapon. It could still have a pure Power weapon since it's not like Mace/Axe is terrible for Condi play (Though the lack of alternatives outside Kalla's SB does highlight the issue that is Rev's lack of weapons which, unlike Engie whom also has few core weapons, still has the ability to swap between weapon sets making 2 weapon sets of a particular type more relevant)

 

Since we also have examples of E-Specs that are hybrid but also have a specific weapon type. Such as Berserker with their Condi Torch, Mirage with its Condi Axe and Chrono with its Support Shield.

[lare.5129]

more buff ventaty table. And more boff this table on wvw !

[JayAction.9056]

-Hybrid — high damage

-Greatsword

-Burn Damage as sole damage condi

-Low combat mobility

-little to no hard cc (stuns, knockbacks, etc)

-HIGH application soft cc and effect condis

(Slow, chill, weakness, poison, vulnerability)

-High damage, fast, bursty, constant attacks in melee range

-not statically tanky

-heavy on counter attacks (effects on evade such as bonus damage, AOE slow and chill, block subsequent attacks on evade, gain boons on evade, damage modifiers on subsequent blocks after initial evade(s))

 

 

[Raknar.4735]

What I don't want to see: More Summons, Sceptre or another human legend, we already have Shiro.

 

Thematic standpoint:

I hope the legend is part of the evil camp, or at least chaotic neutral. Currently we have 4 good legends (Jalis, Ventari, Glint, Kalla) and 2 evil ones (Shiro, Mallyx), making it 4/3 would balance it out a bit.

 

Gameplay:

It shouldn't focus on support/group again.

We already have Herald as boonshare/supportive specc, Kalla as aggressive/supportive specc.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"zaswer.5246" said:

 

Daredevil definitely is supposed to be the bruiser playstyle for the thief, they just tried to achieve this while staying true to the thematics of the thief. Instead of making it a big bulky mountain of flesh, the daredevil is using other defensive mechanics to stay alive in the middle of the enemy hordes.

 

Daredevil is **loaded** with defense, just look at it.

 

**Staff**: Their weapon has many different defensive abilities. Their auto attacks have a projectile reflect on the third attack, skill 2 applies weakness which will reduce strike damage from foes (and reduce the damage for the daredevil even further since he has a trait utilising weakness), skill 3 has evade frames and removes movement impairing conditions, skill 4 applies blind which lets enemies miss and skill 5 also has evade frames. Daredevil's staff has defensive mechanics on every single skill, not unlike the hammer for scrapper's, which are also a bruiser elite spec. Also the stealth ability is hard CC, applying hard CC is another point of bruiser elite specs.

 

**Utility skills (physicals)**: All their new physical skills either apply CC or add defense for the daredevil. Some even do both.

The healing skill refills your endurance, which means you can dodge more, which is a defensive mechanic. Bandit's defense (name speaks for itself, but anyway) is a blocking skill with a hard CC follow up, so both defensive and applying CC here. Distracting daggers apply CC (daze) up to 3 times thanks to the ammunition mechanic. Fist flurry deals damage, but gets followed up with hard CC (stun) if you hit all the strikes. Impairing daggers apply CC through conditions. And the elite skill has 2 forms of hard CC (stun and launch) followed by damage.

 

**Traits**: You get an additional endurance bar, which is a defensive mechanic. Then you also get other defensive stuff like: increased vitality, healing when evading attacks, gaining endurance by using physical skills, applying weakness and taking less damage from weakened foes, gaining endurance by spending initiative, gaining endurance from stealing from foes.

 

Daredevil has so many defensive mechanics, it is quite obvious that it is supposed to be a bruiser elite spec for the thief in my opinion. Even the description of the class puts emphasis on their defensive mechanics.

"Training in the path of the Daredevil does not come easily, but those who dare are **rewarded with the reserves that will help them endure** as they enter the jungle."

 

I can agree that Anet didn't always hit the mark while designing these classes, but I still think that you can roughly seperate them in these 3 categories. And going by this, revenant is missing the bruiser.

[Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> > Why is our community so hung up on being hybrid?

>

> I guess because more options is more interesting.

>

> > @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> > A hybrid literally puts you into AT BEST the middle of the pack. Elite specs are suppose to be specialized to makes good at something why would you ever want that to be mediocre?

>

> Elementalist says hi.

>

> You know, a class whom has equally viable Power and Condi builds for both their E-Specs.

>

> Since, it's not particularly hard to enable Power/Condi hybrid builds. You just have to have access to Power scaling damage and Condi's with traits that aren't completely specific in nature (I.e. Thief E-Specs being only Power based damage modifiers). Kalla, while a flawed E-Spec in overall design, at least does this by the way of how Kalla's Fervor

> buffs both Ferocity and Condi damage meaning it scales the damage of both Power and Condi builds.

>

> > @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> > Haven't we tried that route enough? Both Kalla and Glint have been hybrid and they both are classed as Support with Kalla only being a dps for very specific bosses.

>

> The issue with Kalla and Glint isn't that they're inherently Hybrid, but that they are a mix of 2 completely different roles. Support and DPS hybrid always makes for a mediocre choice where it often results in mostly the Support build (See: Banner Warrior, Boon Chrono, Heal Druid etc)

>

> Whereas, being hybrid in Power and Condi means that whichever way you slice it, you're a DPS. You just have different flavours.

>

> > @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> > That and getting silly gimmicky weapons or specs that already exist.

>

> Well... As far as weapons go... An Elite Spec that is hybrid Power/Condi doesn't necessarily need to have a hybrid weapon. It could still have a pure Power weapon since it's not like Mace/Axe is terrible for Condi play (Though the lack of alternatives outside Kalla's SB does highlight the issue that is Rev's lack of weapons which, unlike Engie whom also has few core weapons, still has the ability to swap between weapon sets making 2 weapon sets of a particular type more relevant)

>

> Since we also have examples of E-Specs that are hybrid but also have a specific weapon type. Such as Berserker with their Condi Torch, Mirage with its Condi Axe and Chrono with its Support Shield.

 

You are totally right and make good points. I feel like im just frustrated with the lack luster state of Revenant atm. We just don't feel great and the nerfs keep rolling through giving us less and less choice.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I can agree that Anet didn't always hit the mark while designing these classes, but I still think that you can roughly seperate them in these 3 categories. And going by this, revenant is missing the bruiser.

 

Use the same logic with Herald then. Both shield skills heal, one applies prot while the other is a block, the heal skill makes you heal all damage, Facet of Elements applies weakness, Facet of Darkness blinds, Facet of Chaos pulses prot and the active is hard CC.

 

Trait-wise, herald gets increased HP, damage reduction while using upkeeps, better regen.

 

All this comes on top of Jallis and Retribution traits, whereas core thief and engi has less to work with to facilitate the bruiser playstyle their elite specs introduced.

 

Now show me where the dedicated dps elite spec is.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> > @"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

> > A selfish dps elite spec could do both power and condi like berserker. Just saying

>

> Why is our community so hung up on being hybrid? A hybrid literally puts you into AT BEST the middle of the pack. Elite specs are suppose to be specialized to makes good at something why would you ever want that to be mediocre? Haven't we tried that route enough? Both Kalla and Glint have been hybrid and they both are classed as Support with Kalla only being a dps for very specific bosses.

>

> That and getting silly gimmicky weapons or specs that already exist. Its like very few people are actually aware of our class and what it can do. I really want to play and love Rev but over the last couple of days just look at the jumbled mess of suggestions we give the devs its no wonder the class is such a hot mess. At this point I'm just waiting for the expansion we get another kitten Elite spec and just gonna cut my losses and go War / Mes / Ele.

 

Rather than hybrid, it could be either pure direct damage, pure condi damage, or hybrid based on your trait choices.

[zaswer.5246]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"zaswer.5246" said:

>

> Daredevil definitely is supposed to be the bruiser playstyle for the thief, they just tried to achieve this while staying true to the thematics of the thief. Instead of making it a big bulky mountain of flesh, the daredevil is using other defensive mechanics to stay alive in the middle of the enemy hordes.

>

> Daredevil is **loaded** with defense, just look at it.

>

> **Staff**: Their weapon has many different defensive abilities. Their auto attacks have a projectile reflect on the third attack, skill 2 applies weakness which will reduce strike damage from foes (and reduce the damage for the daredevil even further since he has a trait utilising weakness), skill 3 has evade frames and removes movement impairing conditions, skill 4 applies blind which lets enemies miss and skill 5 also has evade frames. Daredevil's staff has defensive mechanics on every single skill, not unlike the hammer for scrapper's, which are also a bruiser elite spec. Also the stealth ability is hard CC, applying hard CC is another point of bruiser elite specs.

>

> **Utility skills (physicals)**: All their new physical skills either apply CC or add defense for the daredevil. Some even do both.

> The healing skill refills your endurance, which means you can dodge more, which is a defensive mechanic. Bandit's defense (name speaks for itself, but anyway) is a blocking skill with a hard CC follow up, so both defensive and applying CC here. Distracting daggers apply CC (daze) up to 3 times thanks to the ammunition mechanic. Fist flurry deals damage, but gets followed up with hard CC (stun) if you hit all the strikes. Impairing daggers apply CC through conditions. And the elite skill has 2 forms of hard CC (stun and launch) followed by damage.

>

> **Traits**: You get an additional endurance bar, which is a defensive mechanic. Then you also get other defensive stuff like: increased vitality, healing when evading attacks, gaining endurance by using physical skills, applying weakness and taking less damage from weakened foes, gaining endurance by spending initiative, gaining endurance from stealing from foes.

>

> Daredevil has so many defensive mechanics, it is quite obvious that it is supposed to be a bruiser elite spec for the thief in my opinion. Even the description of the class puts emphasis on their defensive mechanics.

> "Training in the path of the Daredevil does not come easily, but those who dare are **rewarded with the reserves that will help them endure** as they enter the jungle."

>

> I can agree that Anet didn't always hit the mark while designing these classes, but I still think that you can roughly seperate them in these 3 categories. And going by this, revenant is missing the bruiser.

 

Ok i think i missed the point in my previous explanation so ill try again.

Bruiser, as i understand it and as it is usualy understood i think , is a mix between high health and high dmg toned down so it can deal a good amount of dmg and at the same time has enought health to stay at melee range receibing dmg itself.

With that definition only one trait of the daredevil could be included as it makes your health biger , even so thief base life is too low to be considered as a bruiser even with the trait.

Now about the things you pointed before :-1: ok staff is a weapon with lots of utility with the AA reflect , the bounce and more things you pointed , thats correct but i think if you see more deeply youll see that most of its skills are made to evade the dmg like the bounce or get close or far from the enemy fast

2 yes you have cc in skills that is meant to inmovilice the enemy so we can make dmg better or more dmg and only one of the skills is a block that makes us dont receibe dmg .

3 now about having more evades , as i pointed before it is a way to ( sorry about repeating it ) evade wich means we dont receibe dmg and we get close of far fom the enemy and get some buff by that ( one reduces the dmg receibed i think but just one)

With all this i think we all see daredevil is suposed to evade the dmg it could receibe , like for example a chrono that uses sword 2 or distortion to evade dmg , while a bruiser is suposed to receibe dmg and have enought health to survive and means to get that health back , in this case the bruisers would be warrior as it has high dmg and the highest health of the game (or one of the highest) or nigro as it has a high health pool and has shroud wich is like having a second health pool so you receibe dmg in shroud but to that second health pool but a daredevil that doesnt evade the dmg gets litheraly smashed to oblivionas it has low health .

Now if you have a different oppinion of what a bruser is ok i just said what i think a bruiser is and dont realy want to fight over it .

One modre thing about thiefs in general , im bored of seeing people cry about thiefs dmg , just what do you thought a thief would be ? Seriously guys thieves dont have hight life , dont have much suport apart from stealth , cant go as group healers or boon suports except on one or 2 raid bosses wich is just a matter of luck that work like that , thieves only have dmg and are suposed to be like assasins (in fact they are assasins) high burst dmg and a decent dps but thats all , if you want to cry cry about warriors having more dmg while having more utility , more health and guardians having more dmg , more utility and more survivavility .That was only me venting my anger , im not a main thief but i have played it and come on .

[VocalThought.9835]

> @"Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629" said:

> > @"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

> > A selfish dps elite spec could do both power and condi like berserker. Just saying

>

> Why is our community so hung up on being hybrid? A hybrid literally puts you into AT BEST the middle of the pack. Elite specs are suppose to be specialized to makes good at something why would you ever want that to be mediocre? Haven't we tried that route enough? Both Kalla and Glint have been hybrid and they both are classed as Support with Kalla only being a dps for very specific bosses.

>

> That and getting silly gimmicky weapons or specs that already exist. Its like very few people are actually aware of our class and what it can do. I really want to play and love Rev but over the last couple of days just look at the jumbled mess of suggestions we give the devs its no wonder the class is such a hot mess. At this point I'm just waiting for the expansion we get another kitten Elite spec and just gonna cut my losses and go War / Mes / Ele.

 

Elites weren't created to help make a meta build, they were created to simply fulfill the secondary profession feel from the 1st game. It's nice that they also add to the theme of the class, almost like a sub-class, but I think each specialization or trait line helps with that. I would say the elite trait lines tend to be able to support many other trait lines, so it's not cookie cut to only support one.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"VocalThought.9835" said:

> Elites weren't created to help make a meta build, they were created to simply fulfill the secondary profession feel from the 1st game. It's nice that they also add to the theme of the class, almost like a sub-class, but I think each specialization or trait line helps with that. I would say the elite trait lines tend to be able to support many other trait lines, so it's not cookie cut to only support one.

 

For most professions elite specialization were meant a sidegrade, although Arenanet turned them into upgrades.

Revenant, however, was released together with the elite specializations and was _most likely_ designed to harmonize more with Herald than with itself.

 

 

[VocalThought.9835]

It seems like one of the best ideas I noticed was how the new profession mechanics should work. I like the idea of "Legend Weaving".

 

I really wish the the legend swapping was something you toogled in and out of, removed ancient echo from being an F2, and put the abilities of ancient echo into utility skills called "remnant". Remnant Skills could be the sixth legend skill for each legend that they have while they're not in a legend stance. That would make their Legendary Utility skills more like how Necro Shoud skills work instead of how Elementalist Attunement skills. Of course the energy system would change, where they would boost up while using weapon skills not in a legend stance, but legend swapping would not get you back to 50% Energy.

 

They could simply give a very basic healing skill and a new Acient Echo skill could be it's elite skill, raising the Energy to max level. Doing it that way, you could be able to pick 3 of 4 Remnant Skills from the core legends and each new legend would also have a remnant skill. They could keep F1 "Swap Legends", but make F2 the Legend Tap/Untap or "Commune".

 

[Virdo.1540]

i just hope, whatever the next weapon we will get is, that its some kind of ranged weapon.... like necros axe or so

 

i dont like renegade and hammer is..... well, i would choose mace 3 over hammer

[Scoobaniec.9561]

> @"Virdo.1540" said:

> i just hope, whatever the next weapon we will get is, that its some kind of ranged weapon.... like necros axe or so

>

> i dont like renegade and hammer is..... well, i would choose mace 3 over hammer

 

We got ranged weapon with last e spec. How that turned out we all know. There no need for ranged wep unless condi one for core and the options we have now need redesing, new weapon wont fix shit

[Virdo.1540]

> @"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

> > @"Virdo.1540" said:

> > i just hope, whatever the next weapon we will get is, that its some kind of ranged weapon.... like necros axe or so

> >

> > i dont like renegade and hammer is..... well, i would choose mace 3 over hammer

>

> We got ranged weapon with last e spec. How that turned out we all know. There no need for ranged wep unless condi one for core and the options we have now need redesing, new weapon wont fix kitten

 

fixing anything isnt in progress. But maybe bringing back the fun of playing could be a thing

[RabbitUp.8294]

They are constantly reworking traits and weapons, I'm sure a hammer and/or shortbow mini-rework is much more likely than getting a new ranged weapon for the next elite spec.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"VocalThought.9835" said:

> > Elites weren't created to help make a meta build, they were created to simply fulfill the secondary profession feel from the 1st game. It's nice that they also add to the theme of the class, almost like a sub-class, but I think each specialization or trait line helps with that. I would say the elite trait lines tend to be able to support many other trait lines, so it's not cookie cut to only support one.

>

> For most professions elite specialization were meant a sidegrade, although Arenanet turned them into upgrades.

> Revenant, however, was released together with the elite specializations and was _most likely_ designed to harmonize more with Herald than with itself.

>

 

Revenant was almost unplayable until you unlock Herald at HoT launch.

[VocalThought.9835]

Here' s my idea for future Revenant with current ones to give some context-

1) Hearld with a Shield, conjuring Dragon abilities, and able to tap into the Dragon Legend to buff them and their allies.

2) Renegade with Short Bow, able to summon spiritual combatants, and harness a Legendary Warrior's ability to command ancient forces and charging your allies for battle.

*3) Overlord with dual Scepters, able to summon minions from the mist, and Over Charge their connection to their attune legend.

*4) Mist Walker with dual Pistols, the ability to use the mist offensive and defensively, and Merge Legend abilities.

*5) Rift Slayer with a Great Sword, and able to cast dimensional spells, and the timely ability to open or close a dimensional gate.

[phokus.8934]

Main-hand weapons won't be off-hands and off-hands won't be main-hands. So we won't get main-hand shields or off-hand scepters.

[VocalThought.9835]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> Main-hand weapons won't be off-hands and off-hands won't be main-hands. So we won't get main-hand shields or off-hand scepters.

 

Why wouldn't we? We got mounts!

[phokus.8934]

> @"VocalThought.9835" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > Main-hand weapons won't be off-hands and off-hands won't be main-hands. So we won't get main-hand shields or off-hand scepters.

>

> Why wouldn't we? We got mounts!

 

The same reason we're not getting new weapon types.