Pure "Tank" builds should not be allowed

[schloumou.3982]

^

You have to be trolling. You can't seriously say the whole comabat system and interaction is just a secondary layer of GW2's gameplay. Especially in competitive modes. It's really about running from one point to another?

[ArchonWing.9480]

Why do people go on and on about "skill" like it's some kind of magical unicorn? No game gives a damn if you are skilled. If you regularly make bad decisions and have to press 6809 keys to get out of it, it may mean that you are skilled, but it doesn't mean you deserve to win. Nobody cares if you're skilled or whatever magical set of rules you make for yourself.

 

The difference between the two types of players is one doesn't have to rationalize how they play. The other type just gets farmed and is so ashamed of their gameplay, that they just want the game to be changed.

 

Skilled, unskilled, potato, at least respect your own work. If you're a rallybot but you have the best damned anti-siege ballista placement ever, let the later define you in WvW, not this QQ lol.

[HAsAsIN.6724]

officially i am in 2 servers that knows how to defend without needing a pin. and in the other server, we even defended the keep while double teamed hard.

 

in team pvp (spvp/wvw) it's always group effort, right timing, right movement, complementary builds 'by chance' (coz you or others just entered unplanned) and just having the 'let's pwn' mindset.

 

solo builds can join in and you can move anyway you want within your zerg. but if you, say have balanced numbers (not so much damage and just right healing), you can frontline facetank with your commander and his frontliners.

[JTGuevara.9018]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

>

> You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

>

> Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

>

> Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

 

Heh...heh....! As a "lower skilled" player of 8 _years_, I still find tank builds useful! Especially in squads. Of course, on this 5 year warrior of mine, I can play both full tank and full berserker build, it doesn't matter.

 

How about _not_ engaging those builds in the first place and move to a camp or somewhere else? I don't know about you, but I think that's a much better idea.

[Faenar.8036]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

>

> You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist.

 

> ...

 

> Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

 

So basically you are suggesting to kill the variety of builds in WvW? Only zerker gear would be allowed or what?

 

You know that WvW is about teamplay, right? No one with any possible combination of stats can survive focused damage from 10 players. Imagine 10 v 10 PvP situation, where all players from your team will focus 1 player from enemy team, and kill him. Now you have 10 v 9 situation. Repeat it, and you now have 10 v 8 situation, thats good, isnt it? It is called teamplay. Well coordinated 20-man guild can totally obliterate 40-man pug zerg. (Actually even way greater zerg, if that zerg is poorly coordinated and players there not helping each other). Try that thing called "teamplay", it works.

 

*

 

Honestly I cannot understand there are players actually complaining about variety of equipment stats in a RPG game ... If this thread would be just a trolling attempt, I would understand it and even appreciate it as a good sarcasm joke, but it seems the OP means his post in a serious way. Well, maybe I am too oldschool, but understanding serious complaints about variety of equipment in a RPG game is simply beyond my comprehension.

[Shiyo.3578]

There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds,

> >

> > Skill is a crutch that is leant upon far too much by certain players. This is an awful state of affairs, with the vast majority of players being miserable in order to service these twitchy overlords. The game is already skewed in the favour of the Skillcrutch Twitchers, there should be much LONGER fights, rather than these ridiculous 1 microsecond burstfiestas and people who don't want to fight should get that option.

> >

> > Let's be honest with one another here, Skillcrutch Twitchers err towards classes specifically designed for them and which prohibit normal people from using them. THAT is the real problem with balance, the core mechanics of many classes (specifically; elementalist, engineer, mesmer, thief) are only viable for people with fast hands and fast eyes.

> Exactly, its the same IRL. Skill-less people play soccer on **soft grass**, real men play hockey on **hard ice**. Hell I hear they even use the crutch of spikes on their shoes for better grip, compared to using kitten *SHOE SWORDS*.

 

Except those people aren't in the same game as one another.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

>

> You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

>

> Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

>

> Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

 

Pure Damage builds should not be allowed.

 

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such highly mobile and bursty builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people that you just instantly burst kill, and they can just burst kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of 1 shots.

 

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

 

Exactly

 

Berserker, Assassin, Marauder etc are all so unfun to fight, I just get 100-0 in a few seconds, no counterplay possible even, and even if i win it was over in a second or two

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if pure one shot builds are taken out then sure you've got yourself a deal.

fair gaem yey!

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

Sheesh just take out stats from gear completely, but keep the ability to have one stacking sigil. Which stat do you want? Hehe

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds,

> > >

> > > Skill is a crutch that is leant upon far too much by certain players. This is an awful state of affairs, with the vast majority of players being miserable in order to service these twitchy overlords. The game is already skewed in the favour of the Skillcrutch Twitchers, there should be much LONGER fights, rather than these ridiculous 1 microsecond burstfiestas and people who don't want to fight should get that option.

> > >

> > > Let's be honest with one another here, Skillcrutch Twitchers err towards classes specifically designed for them and which prohibit normal people from using them. THAT is the real problem with balance, the core mechanics of many classes (specifically; elementalist, engineer, mesmer, thief) are only viable for people with fast hands and fast eyes.

> > Exactly, its the same IRL. Skill-less people play soccer on **soft grass**, real men play hockey on **hard ice**. Hell I hear they even use the crutch of spikes on their shoes for better grip, compared to using kitten *SHOE SWORDS*.

>

> Except those people aren't in the same game as one another.

Neither are zerglings and roamers, apparently.

 

[ASP.8093]

What's the actual scenario here? 1v1 vs. Trailblazer condi builds? Trying to snipe a Minstrel Firebrand away from their squad? Getting knocked around by some kind of tanky engineer?

[Comus.7365]

only ones i take issue with is them damn rangers especially soulbeats with it's massive damage output on top of it's insane damage mitigation.

[Mikhael.2391]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

> >

> > You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

> >

> > Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

> >

> > Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

>

> I would agree that ‘can’t be killed’ and ‘instant kill’ builds are both very unfun to play against. Thankfully the patch has resolved almost all instant kill builds. Unfortunately ‘can’t be killed’ has indeed become a problem.

>

> From a 1 vs 1 perspective, I’ve watched many fights and while most classes can build for some degree of bunker sustain, they mostly still have some form of counter that can beat them. The opposing player would need to spec heavily or use other classes to counter that bunker build though.

>

> For example, some matchups between good players I saw countering the sustain builds:

>

> Condi berserker (bunker) beat Power DH.

> Power DH swap to sic em full glass soul beast and beat the bunker berserker.

>

> Condi weaver (bunker) beat power soulbeast.

> Power soulbeast swap to condi Druid and beat the bunker weaver.

>

> Unfortunately, the one outlier class that is very hard to counter now because of the reduced damage, is the signets core necro. The only classes that can do enough DPS to threaten them is the sic em soulbeast and deadeye. But even then, those classes need to outplay the necro massively to beat them. The other classes just don’t do enough spike damage to threaten the necro. At best, they can counter spec to draw so both sides can’t kill each other. But that is, as you’ve said, unfun.

>

> I don’t think the solution is to reduce stat options though. Having more stat options is fun.

>

> I feel that bunker is a problem because of certain builds having frequent access to almost constant healing. For example, high regen access, traited heal in shroud, heal on torment ticks, life steal etc.

> All these heals that are small but frequent enough, cause bunker builds to have too much sustain. Interrupting their actual heal skill becomes less effective because of almost constant healing from other sources.

> Nerf or replace those extra sources of healing and we should be able to resolve the sustain issue.

 

A problem people have understanding is that take the core necro tank build for ex which is good for roaming and most 1vs1 outnumbered and to an extent larger scale, reaper pales in comparison in 1vs1 certain classes with more cc and evades damage denials and scourge the same. Instant casts would help this class a lot since ANET refuses to put an ICD for cc and inturrupts. A thief can solo easyyy a reaper with pistol and shortbow4, its conpletely one sided and only bad thieves will loose this match.

[Faenar.8036]

Ok, I tried to communicate normally and explain WvW is mainly about teamwork, not about 1v1-only and allowed/non-allowed gear stats, but after seeing another OP's post and arguments, I come to conclusion this is just another whining thread like "Mom, I cannot 1v1 all enemies. Mom, do something with it!" In this case, just replace the word "mom" with the word "ArenaNet".

 

Rock, paper, scissors mechanic works in this game (not 100% flawlessly, but works anyway), your problem is a learn-to-play issue, you especially need to understand which game mechanica are hard counters to another game mechanics. Type "GW2 wiki" in your internet browser and read info there, it can help you with understanding Guild Wars 2 game. I can recomend it, GW2 wiki is really excelent source of informations about GW2.

 

As i said,just another whining thread. End of story.

[Sovereign.1093]

To be fair I'm always looking for to read the person who says shattered aegis nerf

[Strider.7849]

I like diversity in everything I fight, as a roamer I wouldn't like to see tank builds disappear. I do not want WvW to end up like PvP there's no choices and everything is pre-determined. Tank builds aren't that "tanky".

 

How about you post what you are having a hard time fighting and we can offer suggestions. Literally everything has a counter.

[Mikhael.2391]

> @"Faenar.8036" said:

> Ok, I tried to communicate normally and explain WvW is mainly about teamwork, not about 1v1-only and allowed/non-allowed gear stats, but after seeing another OP's post and arguments, I come to conclusion this is just another whining thread like "Mom, I cannot 1v1 all enemies. Mom, do something with it!" In this case, just replace the word "mom" with the word "ArenaNet".

>

> Rock, paper, scissors mechanic works in this game (not 100% flawlessly, but works anyway), your problem is a learn-to-play issue, you especially need to understand which game mechanica are hard counters to another game mechanics. Type "GW2 wiki" in your internet browser and read info there, it can help you with understanding Guild Wars 2 game. I can recomend it, GW2 wiki is really excelent source of informations about GW2.

>

> As i said,just another whining thread. End of story.

 

Kindly explain whats the counter for a good DE (not even the best just good) ? because all thiefs elites played well NEVER loose a 1vs1 unless they get greedy. the class has the tools to outdamage or wear others down till they dead by cooldowns etc.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"schloumou.3982" said:

> ^

> You have to be trolling. You can't seriously say the whole comabat system and interaction is just a secondary layer of GW2's gameplay. Especially in competitive modes. It's really about running from one point to another?

 

That's no different than saying capturing the flag in capture the flag is irrelevant.

 

Look up the game modes for yourself, Conquest is about point scoring, killing players is only one metheod of doing so.

If your team spends the whole match ignoring capture points and just killing the other team then the vast majority of the time you are going to loose.

Fact.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

>

> You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

>

> Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

>

> Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

 

Lower skilled players always going to gravitate towards high reward=low effort build...reason why "nobody" roams with a tanky build and why you only see gank groups of thieves/rev/scrapper cheesing their way to victory...it's nice to know there is something out there that can curb the "fun experience" of cheese abusers and anyway make no mistake OP.

 

**Under no circumstances** you will keep your dmg/cheese burst in case defenses get lowered...don't even start dreaming about it, if there would be no more "tank" specs then there would be no reason to keep cheese burst in the game also

[Kulvar.1239]

Bluntly put

"I roam solo in a full zerk build without cleanse nor defensive weapon, nor defensive utility, nor the skill necessary to succeed that way, but make the game bend my way please"

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> I don’t think the solution is to reduce stat options though. Having more stat options is fun.

>

> I feel that bunker is a problem because of certain builds having frequent access to almost constant healing. For example, high regen access, traited heal in shroud, heal on torment ticks, life steal etc.

> All these heals that are small but frequent enough, cause bunker builds to have too much sustain. Interrupting their actual heal skill becomes less effective because of almost constant healing from other sources.

> Nerf or replace those extra sources of healing and we should be able to resolve the sustain issue.

 

One of the issues is the fine line between reducing stat options by simply removing that stat from available gear and reducing stat options by making builds that would use those stats not worthwhile.

 

An alternative solution can be something like adding in more counterplay to specific builds. Especially if it ends up forming a Rock, Paper, Scissors type scenario where each build type has its own strength it can use to best another build type, but it then comes at a weakness to different build type (Ideally, you'd avoid hard counters so that someone who plays well still has a chance of beating the build type they're weak against)

 

For example, if there was a new condition that was more heavily dedicated to countering healing and had some sort of mechanic to make it more difficult to cleanse (Such as "Can only have 1 stack cleansed at a time") you'd open up Condi builds to be able to tear through defensive Bunker builds (Especially if the healing counter was based on Condi damage stats, so Power Burst builds wouldn't be able to utilize it so well). Meanwhile, a Bunker's inherent sustain would make them ideally suited to taking out glassy Burst builds that neither will burst them down nor have the sustain to whittle them over time. But the Burst build would be able to shred the Condi build before they can build up their Condi's to a good level (Well... In theory, in reality there's tons of builds that can crap out 20+ stacks of Condi's in the blink of an eye... Which would likely need to be addressed to round out this particular scenario)

 

Of course, due to the flexibility of gearing, one can then also adjust how far they go towards their particular strength for a better match against their weakness (I.e. A burst build using Marauder/Valkyrie stats instead of Berzerker)

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Mikhael.2391" said:

> > @"Faenar.8036" said:

> > Ok, I tried to communicate normally and explain WvW is mainly about teamwork, not about 1v1-only and allowed/non-allowed gear stats, but after seeing another OP's post and arguments, I come to conclusion this is just another whining thread like "Mom, I cannot 1v1 all enemies. Mom, do something with it!" In this case, just replace the word "mom" with the word "ArenaNet".

> >

> > Rock, paper, scissors mechanic works in this game (not 100% flawlessly, but works anyway), your problem is a learn-to-play issue, you especially need to understand which game mechanica are hard counters to another game mechanics. Type "GW2 wiki" in your internet browser and read info there, it can help you with understanding Guild Wars 2 game. I can recomend it, GW2 wiki is really excelent source of informations about GW2.

> >

> > As i said,just another whining thread. End of story.

>

> Kindly explain whats the counter for a good DE (not even the best just good) ? because all thiefs elites played well NEVER loose a 1vs1 unless they get greedy. the class has the tools to outdamage or wear others down till they dead by cooldowns etc.

 

Play it for a while.

Thief as a whole is pretty predictable except by the very skilled players, and once you know how to predict certain behaviors, the class is largely a free bag unless you're deliberately building to be weak into them.

 

My wins on reaper vs deadeye are like 80/20 in 1v1. At least half the losses are because I start with sub-20% life force.

Most people playing DE are FoTM ganker players or ex-boonbeasts who actually just suck and lose as soon as they fight a competent opponent. Unlike boonbeast, though, you can outsmart a Deadeye and just instakill it.

[schloumou.3982]

I think the slow but drastic shift in these discussions over trait/gear systems, mounts, damagetypes etc. suggests that at this point most players interested in somehow dynamic, diverse, balanced gameplay on different scales and layers, have left the game or at least given up hope and therefore participation. Somehow interesting what community remains when your design choises constantly cater to casual facebook moms, playing on their mobile phone. Why should they have to press buttons when they invested in tanky gear and traits all morning. Just let them ride over those poor two dudes with 12 people in the believe that they are strategic masterminds that solved all balance issues.

[Mikhael.2391]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Mikhael.2391" said:

> > > @"Faenar.8036" said:

> > > Ok, I tried to communicate normally and explain WvW is mainly about teamwork, not about 1v1-only and allowed/non-allowed gear stats, but after seeing another OP's post and arguments, I come to conclusion this is just another whining thread like "Mom, I cannot 1v1 all enemies. Mom, do something with it!" In this case, just replace the word "mom" with the word "ArenaNet".

> > >

> > > Rock, paper, scissors mechanic works in this game (not 100% flawlessly, but works anyway), your problem is a learn-to-play issue, you especially need to understand which game mechanica are hard counters to another game mechanics. Type "GW2 wiki" in your internet browser and read info there, it can help you with understanding Guild Wars 2 game. I can recomend it, GW2 wiki is really excelent source of informations about GW2.

> > >

> > > As i said,just another whining thread. End of story.

> >

> > Kindly explain whats the counter for a good DE (not even the best just good) ? because all thiefs elites played well NEVER loose a 1vs1 unless they get greedy. the class has the tools to outdamage or wear others down till they dead by cooldowns etc.

>

> Play it for a while.

> Thief as a whole is pretty predictable except by the very skilled players, and once you know how to predict certain behaviors, the class is largely a free bag unless you're deliberately building to be weak into them.

>

> My wins on reaper vs deadeye are like 80/20 in 1v1. At least half the losses are because I start with sub-20% life force.

> Most people playing DE are FoTM ganker players or ex-boonbeasts who actually just suck and lose as soon as they fight a competent opponent. Unlike boonbeast, though, you can outsmart a Deadeye and just instakill it.

 

I have a thief, and made pistol pistol build that interrupts with nothing to be done by reaper for too long and dodge forever. so pew pew all the way dodge and dodge some more repeat, shadow step away if necessary and go back in. its one sided.

 

If necro reaper and scourge had instant cast utilities and weapon skill maybe it would be fair. but boon strip on unblocable interrupt is so retarded that until this day I can only think the people behind the game never properly played their game.