Pure "Tank" builds should not be allowed

[lodjur.1284]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

> > >

> > > You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

> > >

> > > Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

> > >

> > > Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

> >

> > Pure Damage builds should not be allowed.

> >

> > Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such highly mobile and bursty builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people that you just instantly burst kill, and they can just burst kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of 1 shots.

> >

> > Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

> >

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

> >

> > Exactly

> >

> > Berserker, Assassin, Marauder etc are all so unfun to fight, I just get 100-0 in a few seconds, no counterplay possible even, and even if i win it was over in a second or two

>

> And you are right....Which is why just a few months back we had a HUGE power reduction, though as I said back before it released, that sustain needed to be looked at just as much, as the idea was, or should have been a reduction in BURST ability, that is the "1 shot" combo builds, it shouldn't have have been to increase the overall TTK. I know more than a few who didn't agree with me, however I think over all TTK was fine before the patch, it was outliers that if you did the rotation right, you were going to get a down. However, they did not look at all the aspects of sustain and here we are.

 

Sustain for nerfed.

 

Sustain is fine atm.

 

TTK was too low.

 

> My view is from 1vs1 or small scale, where I have run across some builds that can face tank all of my bursts, and I don't mean blocking or dodging anything, stuff like this just like the one shot combo builds, have no place in the game. Most of these you can run from, but in the end are just annoying, there is one tank engi from a server we were just matched with who would tap keeps all day long, he would run from me and just eat everything I hit him with even after going full glass, he would heal right through it, if you turned around to leave he would follow you to keep you in combat, I fought him while fighting a thief as well and he thought it was his chance and went all in to try and kill me, this was the lowest I got him, but as soon as I killed the thief, he went back into full defense mode and back to 80% HP.

 

Trollbuilds exist, nomad thief for example isn't anything new. They're annoying but that's about it, they don't achieve anything.

 

The "best" ones aren't facetanking much they just run high mobility/evades with tanky stats to cover any gaps in their evade uptime.

 

If anything the keep tagging mechanic and/or how ridiculous mobility there is should be reduced.

 

> Now, I am not the best player, and I know some higher burst pressure builds that probably could kill him, though that leaves 80-90% of builds out of the running. I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

 

Well they can't kill you either so just move on, as a solo player you won't be able to kill everything

[Shiyo.3578]

People shouldn't be unkillable due to builds, that's the entire point. What if you WvW for 3 hours a week and in those 3 hours you don't die, nor do you get any kills, because everyone you run across is a troll unkilllable build? You'd probably stop WvWing all together - thus why it's a dying game mode.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

>

> Sustain for nerfed.

>

> Sustain is fine atm.

>

> TTK was too low.

>

 

TTK was about the same as it is now, outside of the few outlying builds, though rotations and combat was faster, the TTK in my own recordings works out about the same. Just like Sustain is fine (I never said otherwise), except for the few outlying builds.

 

 

> Trollbuilds exist, nomad thief for example isn't anything new. They're annoying but that's about it, they don't achieve anything.

>

> The "best" ones aren't facetanking much they just run high mobility/evades with tanky stats to cover any gaps in their evade uptime.

>

> If anything the keep tagging mechanic and/or how ridiculous mobility there is should be reduced.

>

 

I never said troll builds or sustain builds were new, how long they have existed for has nothing to do with if they are healthy for a game.

 

Thats the point, some of the builds have so much you dont have to be good to survive, that is what makes them so troll. If it was due to well played counters and the like, I have no problem with it.

 

I agree, as I have posted many times on here, contesting should have been fixed long ago, there is no reason that one single person can contest a keep without even killing or attacking anything, just aggroing is enough.

 

 

>

> Well they can't kill you either so just move on, as a solo player you won't be able to kill everything

 

Thats the point, the troll is to keep you in combat and to contest WPs. It can't kill me or do much else other than troll, so removing these from the game is no loss. I don't understand your defense of the build, you admit it's a troll, so why keep it?

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I've taught a lot of reapers how to curbstomp thief players with necro, particularly with reaper, which has a surprising amount of instant or fast-cast and interruptable abilities. Eremite, who's in this very thread, is one of them.

 

True ?. I learnt a lot from Deceiver. Many of his posts have been very insightful.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

 

That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

 

If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

 

Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Apparently...

> Tanky builds not an issue.

> Super sustain not an issue.

> Boons spam not an issue.

> Mass cleansing not an issue.

> Boon balls not an issue.

> Here's a strategy, get bored and log out.

 

This ten thousand times this! So sick of all of it really.

[Hannelore.8153]

I haven't run into any unkillable players just from gear, etc.. From builds and skill usage, yes, but that usually involves them running away with a full escape kit. Anyone who stays and fights still dies eventually because that's how the game works.. you can't heal forever because eventually you get +1'ed no matter how far out in the world you are, unless its EoTM or something.

 

I think that you'll find most of the problem lies in things like, movement speed, full escape kits, excessive healing, etc. than in "tanking" from gear stats alone. Its being Sonic the Hedgehog in a thousand pounds of armor that is OP.

 

Players who build for tankiness should be naturally slower and easier to catch than others (this was the idea behind Guardian), instead of having bars full of leaps, teleports, stealth, and a heal from every skill on their bar, but that's what we've ended up with due to a combination of powercreep and the "action game" obsession.

 

Most MMOs don't seem to have this problem, yet its a mystery to everyone as to why?

[lodjur.1284]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> >

> > Sustain for nerfed.

> >

> > Sustain is fine atm.

> >

> > TTK was too low.

> >

>

> TTK was about the same as it is now, outside of the few outlying builds, though rotations and combat was faster, the TTK in my own recordings works out about the same. Just like Sustain is fine (I never said otherwise), except for the few outlying builds.

 

Overall TTK has gone up a bit imo and feels good now.

 

>

> > Trollbuilds exist, nomad thief for example isn't anything new. They're annoying but that's about it, they don't achieve anything.

> >

> > The "best" ones aren't facetanking much they just run high mobility/evades with tanky stats to cover any gaps in their evade uptime.

> >

> > If anything the keep tagging mechanic and/or how ridiculous mobility there is should be reduced.

> >

>

> I never said troll builds or sustain builds were new, how long they have existed for has nothing to do with if they are healthy for a game.

>

> Thats the point, some of the builds have so much you dont have to be good to survive, that is what makes them so troll. If it was due to well played counters and the like, I have no problem with it.

 

Well mobility/avoidance is the problem, thief can do ranged poke and keep you in combat forever in full zerk too, this is really common and something I encounter almost on a daily basis, defensive stats have nothing to do with it.

 

There's a reason you don't see "troll" firebrands or necros.

 

> I agree, as I have posted many times on here, contesting should have been fixed long ago, there is no reason that one single person can contest a keep without even killing or attacking anything, just aggroing is enough.

 

Imo contesting should be doing damage to the actual building. But anything would be an improvement over the current state, tho i don't really care.

 

> >

> > Well they can't kill you either so just move on, as a solo player you won't be able to kill everything

>

> Thats the point, the troll is to keep you in combat and to contest WPs. It can't kill me or do much else other than troll, so removing these from the game is no loss. I don't understand your defense of the build, you admit it's a troll, so why keep it?

 

Well changing defensive stats shouldn't change much.

 

If you're saying

 

"Lets nerf mobility, stealth and/or evades"

 

Then I am for it.

 

But if you're saying let's nerf defensive stats then I am against it.

 

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

>

> That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

>

> If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

 

PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

 

WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

 

You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

 

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

>

> Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

 

No there's barely even a link in PvP.

 

Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

[WorldofBay.8160]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> People shouldn't be unkillable due to builds, that's the entire point. What if you WvW for 3 hours a week and in those 3 hours you don't die, nor do you get any kills, because everyone you run across is a troll unkilllable build? You'd probably stop WvWing all together - thus why it's a dying game mode.

 

what is the problem about playing wvw for 3 hours without dying or killing players?

wvw is not about killing people, it is about conquering the map and if you just capture undefended points you're still useful and valid in that mode, even if you never even saw a player.

 

wvw is not just one style, it is a mix of many styles and unkillable builds don't exist in wvw because you can always stack up the numbers. even if people get away in wvw that isn't a problem because when running away you can't defend or capture any camps (or bigger structures). all you said sounds like you don't understand the power of numbers, teamplay and point mechanics. a build that is able to survive 1v3 in wvw can be shut down easily with bigger numbers or just get ignored entirely. a build doing the same in spvp where there are only 5 people pretty much decides the game by holding one of the three nodes for eternity and giving his team a free save spot right in the middle of the fight. now put 3 of those in a team, one on each node. the other team has to 5v1 them again and again or mirror the builds. that's unhealthy. in wvw however take 5 people to the node and force him off, take the node and have it secured for 5 minutes. other aspects like the fact that you can't stay online the entire wvw match or that the maps are far bigger or that these fights happen on minor points make it more ridiculous to complain about a build that you can't kill in a 1v1 in a mode that isn't meant to be 1v1. not to mention that you haven't told us that build yet.

[Yasai.3549]

Tank builds are "balanced" on paper.

 

High sustain - low damage yes?

 

This is where Boons come in.

 

I have been trying to get everyone to see that Boons are the major reason this game's balance is constantly jeopardized.

 

A DPS-build will never ever beat a build which is both durable and can give themselves offensive Boons and maintain them.

 

Boons need to be reworked for competitive because it seriously destroys the balance between builds.

 

And what did Devs do in their infinite wisdom?

 

They neutered many Corrupts and Rips across all professions.

 

Boon balling is at an all time high right now and this needs to be addressed.

 

 

[jsp.6912]

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"jsp.6912" said:

> > full defensive stat need to be remove on wvw(trailblazer, minstrel, giver, nomade...)

> > this kind of stat carry really hard a lot of players

>

> You listed three sets of stats used by support characters who have near zero personal DPS output, and one set of stats that's popular with tedious condi bunker builds. Seems kinda pointless to talk about a Firebrand or Scrapper being "carried" by Minstrel gear when it's a whole interleaved team comp that does the work. You don't exactly see them trying to solo-cap camps in the wild.

 

alone it's useless but roaming with 1-2 players it become quickly broken as fuck, imagine the healer is litterally immortal u can't focus him, he can face tank like everything it's the difference with pvp stat when fb support was meta it was more skilled because u were not immortal like wvw. for me u have to chose between toughness or vitaly and not both.(best thing for me it's they rework this kind of gear like adding an offensive stat instead of defensive stat

[Mikhael.2391]

 

> If you're saying

>

> "Lets nerf mobility, stealth and/or evades"

>

> Then I am for it.

>

> But if you're saying let's nerf defensive stats then I am against it.

 

 

This. Only way to go. I would add review CCs and give an ICD so people do not get perma inuttrupted or at least not 3s when interrupted on all skills. 1s would be more than enought

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > >

> > > Sustain for nerfed.

> > >

> > > Sustain is fine atm.

> > >

> > > TTK was too low.

> > >

> >

> > TTK was about the same as it is now, outside of the few outlying builds, though rotations and combat was faster, the TTK in my own recordings works out about the same. Just like Sustain is fine (I never said otherwise), except for the few outlying builds.

>

> Overall TTK has gone up a bit imo and feels good now.

>

 

I am sure in some situations it has, though part of that I believe is due to people running more tanky. Before the patch for a few weeks, some people I duel with did testing on TTK on different builds and classes, most required changes, however TTK is still about the same, you run more glassy on the builds, however that doesn't matter as much as you would think, because over all dmg was nerfed and the 1 shot combo builds dont really exist anymore, so most fights turned out the same.

 

Though if you feel it went up, it's not something I would care to argue, as if it did, it was not by that much, again, excluding the outliers from before.

 

 

>

> Well mobility/avoidance is the problem, thief can do ranged poke and keep you in combat forever in full zerk too, this is really common and something I encounter almost on a daily basis, defensive stats have nothing to do with it.

>

> There's a reason you don't see "troll" firebrands or necros.

>

> > I agree, as I have posted many times on here, contesting should have been fixed long ago, there is no reason that one single person can contest a keep without even killing or attacking anything, just aggroing is enough.

>

> Imo contesting should be doing damage to the actual building. But anything would be an improvement over the current state, tho i don't really care.

>

 

On troll thief yes, however even sustain built ones I still manage to kill, as they rely on mobility and evades, not pure tanking dmg and being able to heal through it, while annoying to fight, I find them more than killable, as most are not that good, as I said above, sustain builds that require active skill use I don't mind as much and can often still kill. Though I would not argue that the point is still to troll, as it is, so removing it from the game I would have no problem with.

 

>

> Well changing defensive stats shouldn't change much.

>

> If you're saying

>

> "Lets nerf mobility, stealth and/or evades"

>

> Then I am for it.

>

> But if you're saying let's nerf defensive stats then I am against it.

>

>

 

I said nothing about stats, nor do I think that is the problem. And nerfing stats is only going to impact all builds, including non-troll builds that depend on them.

[Taylan.2187]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

>

> You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

>

> Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

>

> Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

 

IMO if someone wants to play a pure tank build, meaning they can neither kill nor be killed, let them have their fun with it.

 

You're saying that too many people play such builds so you can't get kills while roaming anymore. I'd say that's a problem with the player base and not the play-styles made available to them. WvW means you can play tons of different roles and being a super slippery and/or tanky scout is one of them. But even capping camps will be difficult with a build like that, so it's of very limited use. If tons of people play with a build like that, it might simply mean there's too many noobs around who don't know how to roam properly, but hopefully they will become non-noobs soon enough and start experimenting with different builds.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > >

> > > > Sustain for nerfed.

> > > >

> > > > Sustain is fine atm.

> > > >

> > > > TTK was too low.

> > > >

> > >

> > > TTK was about the same as it is now, outside of the few outlying builds, though rotations and combat was faster, the TTK in my own recordings works out about the same. Just like Sustain is fine (I never said otherwise), except for the few outlying builds.

> >

> > Overall TTK has gone up a bit imo and feels good now.

> >

>

> I am sure in some situations it has, though part of that I believe is due to people running more tanky. Before the patch for a few weeks, some people I duel with did testing on TTK on different builds and classes, most required changes, however TTK is still about the same, you run more glassy on the builds, however that doesn't matter as much as you would think, because over all dmg was nerfed and the 1 shot combo builds dont really exist anymore, so most fights turned out the same.

>

> Though if you feel it went up, it's not something I would care to argue, as if it did, it was not by that much, again, excluding the outliers from before.

 

Fair enough

 

>

> >

> > Well mobility/avoidance is the problem, thief can do ranged poke and keep you in combat forever in full zerk too, this is really common and something I encounter almost on a daily basis, defensive stats have nothing to do with it.

> >

> > There's a reason you don't see "troll" firebrands or necros.

> >

> > > I agree, as I have posted many times on here, contesting should have been fixed long ago, there is no reason that one single person can contest a keep without even killing or attacking anything, just aggroing is enough.

> >

> > Imo contesting should be doing damage to the actual building. But anything would be an improvement over the current state, tho i don't really care.

> >

>

> On troll thief yes, however even sustain built ones I still manage to kill, as they rely on mobility and evades, not pure tanking dmg and being able to heal through it, while annoying to fight, I find them more than killable, as most are not that good, as I said above, sustain builds that require active skill use I don't mind as much and can often still kill. Though I would not argue that the point is still to troll, as it is, so removing it from the game I would have no problem with.

 

The non-mobile ones you can generally run from.

 

But out of curiosity what builds do you feel needs a bed to sustain and how would one achieve this without nerfing them in a group setting (or a solo setting where they don't run a 0 dmg build)?

 

> >

> > Well changing defensive stats shouldn't change much.

> >

> > If you're saying

> >

> > "Lets nerf mobility, stealth and/or evades"

> >

> > Then I am for it.

> >

> > But if you're saying let's nerf defensive stats then I am against it.

> >

> >

>

> I said nothing about stats, nor do I think that is the problem. And nerfing stats is only going to impact all builds, including non-troll builds that depend on them.

 

Alright, good

[Obtena.7952]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

> >

> > That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

> >

> > If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

>

> PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

>

> WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

>

> You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

>

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

> >

> > Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

>

> No there's barely even a link in PvP.

>

> Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

 

I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> But out of curiosity what builds do you feel needs a bed to sustain and how would one achieve this without nerfing them in a group setting (or a solo setting where they don't run a 0 dmg build)?

 

I don't pretend to be a balance engineer, and I also don't have the ability to test changes in game like the devs do. That is something I would need access to, as well as being able to see what build these people are running, I can make guesses based on what I see, but there are lots of unknowns and while I play most classes, some I don't know well enough to be able to tell what traits etc they are running just from a fight (at least not all), and PMing them about their build often just results in some insult and block, after all, most of these people enjoy being trolls, so it's expected. I am also probably not the best person for that job either, as there are many far better players than myself.

 

For me it comes down to, in the example of the engi, it's ability to heal, often times going from 10% to 90% instantly, even though it still has high mobility access, blocks, invulnerability, barrier up time, range denial, CC etc etc, yes, lacks pretty much all dmg. It's the fact it can face tank and STILL do all of the above, making it great for trolling, and most classes have SOME sort of build that can troll well, though some much better than others, such as some thief builds or druid builds. This comes down to not just stats, or a healing skill, but having access to other sources of healing, many skills that having extra healing, protection up time etc. boons are a big part of it. Even in large scale, its all about who can strip the stab and bomb faster than FB and engi can clear everything and reapply boons. However this is becoming more common in builds at the solo level, with almost full protection up time, constant stab etc, strong boons like these should not have that sort of up time (big time in solo), it becomes more like a passive that is always up, rather than skilled use to counter a CC or burst etc. Now, before the engi mains come in thinking I am asking for a nerf, I am not, most engi builds I have zero issue with, it's the troll build only, though knowing anet, their fix would be short sighted and nerf it across the board.

 

It's to easy to just throw things out there that would fix the issue, but hurt something else, such as other builds or diversity. And yes, I understand these builds are part of that, however that does not change my stance that they (troll builds) are not healthy for the game.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

> > >

> > > That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

> > >

> > > If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

> >

> > PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

> >

> > WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

> >

> > You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

> >

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

> > >

> > > Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

> >

> > No there's barely even a link in PvP.

> >

> > Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

>

> I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

 

I agree with that point, which I said. I just find the "go PvP if you want fights" argument to be flawed.

 

 

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > But out of curiosity what builds do you feel needs a bed to sustain and how would one achieve this without nerfing them in a group setting (or a solo setting where they don't run a 0 dmg build)?

>

> I don't pretend to be a balance engineer, and I also don't have the ability to test changes in game like the devs do. That is something I would need access to, as well as being able to see what build these people are running, I can make guesses based on what I see, but there are lots of unknowns and while I play most classes, some I don't know well enough to be able to tell what traits etc they are running just from a fight (at least not all), and PMing them about their build often just results in some insult and block, after all, most of these people enjoy being trolls, so it's expected. I am also probably not the best person for that job either, as there are many far better players than myself.

>

> For me it comes down to, in the example of the engi, it's ability to heal, often times going from 10% to 90% instantly, even though it still has high mobility access, blocks, invulnerability, barrier up time, range denial, CC etc etc, yes, lacks pretty much all dmg. It's the fact it can face tank and STILL do all of the above, making it great for trolling, and most classes have SOME sort of build that can troll well, though some much better than others, such as some thief builds or druid builds. This comes down to not just stats, or a healing skill, but having access to other sources of healing, many skills that having extra healing, protection up time etc. boons are a big part of it. Even in large scale, its all about who can strip the stab and bomb faster than FB and engi can clear everything and reapply boons. However this is becoming more common in builds at the solo level, with almost full protection up time, constant stab etc, strong boons like these should not have that sort of up time (big time in solo), it becomes more like a passive that is always up, rather than skilled use to counter a CC or burst etc. Now, before the engi mains come in thinking I am asking for a nerf, I am not, most engi builds I have zero issue with, it's the troll build only, though knowing anet, their fix would be short sighted and nerf it across the board.

>

> It's to easy to just throw things out there that would fix the issue, but hurt something else, such as other builds or diversity. And yes, I understand these builds are part of that, however that does not change my stance that they (troll builds) are not healthy for the game.

 

There is no fix for "troll" builds that doesn't hit "legit" builds.

[Jski.6180]

All classes needs a real counter effect to tanks. Only a few class have realty counters to them now. Give all class boon strip, counter healing and counter armor/ high hp effects (attks that ignore dmg -% and attks that do dmg base off of targets max hp).

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

> > > >

> > > > That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

> > > >

> > > > If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

> > >

> > > PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

> > >

> > > WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

> > >

> > > You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

> > >

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

> > > >

> > > > Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

> > >

> > > No there's barely even a link in PvP.

> > >

> > > Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

> >

> > I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

>

> I agree with that point, which I said. I just find the "go PvP if you want fights" argument to be flawed.

>

>

> > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > But out of curiosity what builds do you feel needs a bed to sustain and how would one achieve this without nerfing them in a group setting (or a solo setting where they don't run a 0 dmg build)?

> >

> > I don't pretend to be a balance engineer, and I also don't have the ability to test changes in game like the devs do. That is something I would need access to, as well as being able to see what build these people are running, I can make guesses based on what I see, but there are lots of unknowns and while I play most classes, some I don't know well enough to be able to tell what traits etc they are running just from a fight (at least not all), and PMing them about their build often just results in some insult and block, after all, most of these people enjoy being trolls, so it's expected. I am also probably not the best person for that job either, as there are many far better players than myself.

> >

> > For me it comes down to, in the example of the engi, it's ability to heal, often times going from 10% to 90% instantly, even though it still has high mobility access, blocks, invulnerability, barrier up time, range denial, CC etc etc, yes, lacks pretty much all dmg. It's the fact it can face tank and STILL do all of the above, making it great for trolling, and most classes have SOME sort of build that can troll well, though some much better than others, such as some thief builds or druid builds. This comes down to not just stats, or a healing skill, but having access to other sources of healing, many skills that having extra healing, protection up time etc. boons are a big part of it. Even in large scale, its all about who can strip the stab and bomb faster than FB and engi can clear everything and reapply boons. However this is becoming more common in builds at the solo level, with almost full protection up time, constant stab etc, strong boons like these should not have that sort of up time (big time in solo), it becomes more like a passive that is always up, rather than skilled use to counter a CC or burst etc. Now, before the engi mains come in thinking I am asking for a nerf, I am not, most engi builds I have zero issue with, it's the troll build only, though knowing anet, their fix would be short sighted and nerf it across the board.

> >

> > It's to easy to just throw things out there that would fix the issue, but hurt something else, such as other builds or diversity. And yes, I understand these builds are part of that, however that does not change my stance that they (troll builds) are not healthy for the game.

>

> There is no fix for "troll" builds that doesn't hit "legit" builds.

 

Hit? Probably not, but that is not the goal, keeping them useful while giving something else as a trade off to replace what the "legit" builds lose. I don't buy into "can't be fixed" that is just lazy. So many games get it right, so can this one, we have just had so little serious looks at balance that it seems impossible at this point. If a class can't be balanced it's a design issue and it needs to be rethought.

[WorldofBay.8160]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> All classes needs a real counter effect to tanks.

 

if tanks are slow, all classes already have a counter. if core necro tanks so well you already have this exact counter as necro is the least mobile. engi however is quite mobile.

mobility is the only good counter to a tank.

 

> attks that ignore dmg -% and attks that do dmg base off of targets max hp

 

attacks that deal a fixed percentage of the hp as damage are impossible to balance well in an environment with equip. is it fair to deal the same damage to a person in white gear and a person in legendary gear? i guess not. is it fair to deal the same damage to a glasscannon and a tank? for sure not. the tank sacrificed his dmg for it, he should have a safe benefit from doing so.

 

i highly doubt any build with any equip can facetank a glasscannon without active defenses. any build capable to do relies on dodges coming back fast enough, blocks or other evades that delay a burst (regen is useless against a burst but any second of delay is great for regen), blinds or other ccs that stop the ongoing attack and - of course - some movement to delay anything that needs to be aimed.

have you ever attacked a person standing still and couldn't kill them? for sure not, because that is what PvE opponents do and each of them is killable even with a lot more hp than any player.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> All classes needs a real counter effect to tanks. Only a few class have realty counters to them now. Give all class boon strip, counter healing and counter armor/ high hp effects (attks that ignore dmg -% and attks that do dmg base off of targets max hp).

Wait so you mean to say we need to counter tanks with some kind of builds that have lots of sustain but also DoT which ignores the toughness that tanks have - maybe even things lowering the effectivness of healing, or keeping hp regen suppressed with some kind of trickle damage (that maybe even punish them for using skills carelessly!)?

[ArchonWing.9480]

You know it's kinda funny that when 2 trailblazer players fight, a good chunk of the stats are wasted.

 

But this is a thread about failing to kill players that can't fight back, so no point in talking about efficiency here.

[Jables.4659]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

 

I honestly couldn't tell if this was supposed to be sarcasm. I was never a fan of the one shot meta and always preferred playing more balanced builds (in terms of stat distribution). As it turns out, I'd take the one shot Meta over my main not having a place in any pvp meta whatsoever. What the current balance team has done to Mesmer is atrocious. Chrono and Mirage are practically memes at this point, and Mesmer's core was gutted heavily back when IH condi spam was severely overtuned. The only build that doesn't feel completely awful is core power shatter, but it relies so heavily on prismatic understanding for survival that it can't function in spvp or wvw marked zones. On the other end of the spectrum, we have classes like ranger (surprise surprise Ben), necro, and condi thief wreaking havoc in a spectacularly busted fashion. Everything feels like such a mess right now and I honestly wish they would just revert the big unbalanced patch.

 

[ASP.8093]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > All classes needs a real counter effect to tanks. Only a few class have realty counters to them now. Give all class boon strip, counter healing and counter armor/ high hp effects (attks that ignore dmg -% and attks that do dmg base off of targets max hp).

> Wait so you mean to say we need to counter tanks with some kind of builds that have lots of sustain but also DoT which ignores the toughness that tanks have - maybe even things lowering the effectivness of healing, or keeping hp regen suppressed with some kind of trickle damage (that maybe even punish them for using skills carelessly!)?

 

I feel like we're really blazing a trail here, tactically speaking.