Tayga.3192 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > chess is unbalanced too :D Nah with best play it's a draw afaik But forums are sometimes like rook complaining about diagonal movement being OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > chess is unbalanced too :D > > Nah with best play it's a draw afaik > > But forums are sometimes like rook complaining about diagonal movement being OP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevlisBavles.3059 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Ovark.2514" said: > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"SevlisBavles.3059" said: > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. > > How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? Because people like this game but are also inherently selfish and biased. My fun >>>> your fun. Far to any forum posts boil down to "I don't like it so please remove/change/nerf." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Supreme.3164" said: > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... Your first post ever on this forum was "PvP shouldn't be a thing", and it wasn't even that long ago. What are you doing? (Is this projection?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted June 3, 2020 Author Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > doesnt matter, there's no skill in this game anyway, just builds, it's just about who pick the next counter first. > may as well just play strategy game. I am curious about this idea of "skill" in a MMO where different professions, skills exist and dozen of build combination get created. How can there be skill talk when one profession has 2x more base HP than another and then expect the latter to go against the first? What about those with access with stealth against those who haven't got it? And professions with 1200 range spike against melee centered professions? If for example there is a difference in base HP then somehow the difference must be equalised...with so much difference between profession why this idea of skill even get applied? it's like pitting a tank vs a guy with a longbow then expect the more "skilled" to win..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted June 3, 2020 Author Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > Your first post ever on this forum was "PvP shouldn't be a thing", and it wasn't even that long ago. What are you doing? (Is this projection?) "MMO are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules" If things don't go your way....don't come on the forum asking for changes that may favor you. PvPers more than everybody else have shown time and time again that the only enjoyable experience that counts...it's their own, my idea of balance instead is that **none** of us should expect to jump on any other class expecting an easy win...if win at all Whatever class you play...any other class by default should have a 50% chance to kill you and then that percentage goes up or down depending on personal skill ...that what balance means, asking to remove this and that just so a class by default loses to another...it's not balance but just selfish desire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted June 3, 2020 Author Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovark.2514 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"SevlisBavles.3059" said: > > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. > > > > How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? > > Because people like this game but are also inherently selfish and biased. My fun >>>> your fun. > > Far to any forum posts boil down to "I don't like it so please remove/change/nerf." A competitive game can't survive if everyone leaves. . . Also, people on these forums would do well to stop thinking in an "us vs them" mentality. I doubt anyone really feels like a particular class should be nerfed so hard that it's completely nonviable and nobody plays it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"SevlisBavles.3059" said: > > > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > > > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. > > > > > > How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? > > > > Because people like this game but are also inherently selfish and biased. My fun >>>> your fun. > > > > Far to any forum posts boil down to "I don't like it so please remove/change/nerf." > > A competitive game can't survive if everyone leaves. . . Also, people on these forums would do well to stop thinking in an "us vs them" mentality. I doubt anyone really feels like a particular class should be nerfed so hard that it's completely nonviable and nobody plays it. Yes but there is a point between something being unfun to play against because it's unbalanced, unfun because it specifically counters my build, unfun because I'm bad at fighting against, and unfun because I'm not good enough. Etc etc. There are a lot of metrics to "fun" and most of which are subjective. Also the fact that people never want to admit their own shortcomings or inability so blame anything but. Also I would say you're wrong on the last point. There have been some instances where people have demonstratively expressed that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for shit and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"SevlisBavles.3059" said: > > > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > > > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. > > > > > > How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? > > > > Because people like this game but are also inherently selfish and biased. My fun >>>> your fun. > > > > Far to any forum posts boil down to "I don't like it so please remove/change/nerf." > > A competitive game can't survive if everyone leaves. . . Also, people on these forums would do well to stop thinking in an "us vs them" mentality. I doubt anyone really feels like a particular class should be nerfed so hard that it's completely nonviable and nobody plays it. Actually, that IS literally what MANY posts and posters have been dedicated to. Some people get obsessed with the idea of destroying a class. Take a player whos name starts with Bad* and ends with *Med for instance (whos name I will not say or I this would be deleted) they STILL make up things and and sideline posts out of an obsession with killing Mesmer as a class. Not kidding or ranting. Its fact. They are one of many. The game is dying because some people dont care about truth, facts, balance, quality of play, they JUST want to Dominate everyone and wont be happy until they have no real competition. Meanwhile, Anet seems to tune into what is said and then they come up with boneheaded half baked plans like 1 dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"SevlisBavles.3059" said: > > > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > > > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. > > > > > > How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? > > > > Because people like this game but are also inherently selfish and biased. My fun >>>> your fun. > > > > Far to any forum posts boil down to "I don't like it so please remove/change/nerf." > > A competitive game can't survive if everyone leaves. . . Also, people on these forums would do well to stop thinking in an "us vs them" mentality. I doubt anyone really feels like a particular class should be nerfed so hard that it's completely nonviable and nobody plays it. Way wrong on the last point, there are people who consistently ask to **delete** that and that spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"SevlisBavles.3059" said: > > > > > @"Ovark.2514" said: > > > > > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP. > > > > > > > > How about, if you don't find a certain game fun, play another game instead of ruining someone else's fun by trying to force changes? > > > > > > Because people like this game but are also inherently selfish and biased. My fun >>>> your fun. > > > > > > Far to any forum posts boil down to "I don't like it so please remove/change/nerf." > > > > A competitive game can't survive if everyone leaves. . . Also, people on these forums would do well to stop thinking in an "us vs them" mentality. I doubt anyone really feels like a particular class should be nerfed so hard that it's completely nonviable and nobody plays it. > > Way wrong on the last point, there are people who consistently ask to **delete** that and that spec Right, exactly. Many people do literally get obsessed with attempting to destroy other classes. The best example I can think of is Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. For the record I'm far from a rev main but do play the power rev somewhat often so this isn't me wanting my main to remain op or anything just a unbiased opinion after playing the class my self. I get destroyed by good revs on my war but win against bad revs easily, doesn't mean I want revs to be nerfed so their always free kills like bad revs are as I'd rather all classes get reworked mechanics wise making them as effective as good power revs and requiring the same amount of work put in which would mean a lot of classes in the game having their brainless carry especs removed and replaced with mechanics that actually require though while playing in which when played well rewards u with a beast of a spec which is definitely not how gw2 is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > For the record I'm far from a rev main but do play the power rev somewhat often so this isn't me wanting my main to remain op or anything just a unbiased opinion after playing the class my self. I get destroyed by good revs on my war but win against bad revs easily, doesn't mean I want revs to be nerfed so their always free kills like bad revs are as I'd rather all classes get reworked mechanics wise making them as effective as good power revs and requiring the same amount of work put in which would mean a lot of classes in the game having their brainless carry especs removed and replaced with mechanics that actually require though while playing in which when played well rewards u with a beast of a spec which is definitely not how gw2 is right now. Sure but lets face facts, Rev and guard are, at present, the MOST over performing over tuned classes in all game modes. Hands down. No Contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top. If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?! How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > > For the record I'm far from a rev main but do play the power rev somewhat often so this isn't me wanting my main to remain op or anything just a unbiased opinion after playing the class my self. I get destroyed by good revs on my war but win against bad revs easily, doesn't mean I want revs to be nerfed so their always free kills like bad revs are as I'd rather all classes get reworked mechanics wise making them as effective as good power revs and requiring the same amount of work put in which would mean a lot of classes in the game having their brainless carry especs removed and replaced with mechanics that actually require though while playing in which when played well rewards u with a beast of a spec which is definitely not how gw2 is right now. > > Sure but lets face facts, Rev and guard are, at present, the MOST over performing over tuned classes in all game modes. Hands down. No Contest. Yeah and I'm not saying a rev when played well isnt overperforming compares to most the roster but at least it requires some skill and thought. Yes if it wasn't a monster u wouldn't see it nor would people not consider it so strong but if power rev wasn't a monster if works put into it and is nerfed to the lv of half the brainless spam specs why would anyone chose it as we all know what type of effective classes get chosen the most, the easiest, brainless carry spec/builds do and we all kno how that makes out for fun matches lol. I'm just saying at least in its design it requires skill and thought to play. The game would be healthier if more classes/specs were redesigned to follow power revs example. Condi rev/ren is spam brainless territory as well. I tried both for few matches and was far to easy to be effective adding to the large pool of carry builds in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top. > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?! > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession? Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > > > For the record I'm far from a rev main but do play the power rev somewhat often so this isn't me wanting my main to remain op or anything just a unbiased opinion after playing the class my self. I get destroyed by good revs on my war but win against bad revs easily, doesn't mean I want revs to be nerfed so their always free kills like bad revs are as I'd rather all classes get reworked mechanics wise making them as effective as good power revs and requiring the same amount of work put in which would mean a lot of classes in the game having their brainless carry especs removed and replaced with mechanics that actually require though while playing in which when played well rewards u with a beast of a spec which is definitely not how gw2 is right now. > > > > Sure but lets face facts, Rev and guard are, at present, the MOST over performing over tuned classes in all game modes. Hands down. No Contest. > > Yeah and I'm not saying a rev when played well isnt overperforming compares to most the roster but at least it requires some skill and thought. Yes if it wasn't a monster u wouldn't see it nor would people not consider it so strong but if power rev wasn't a monster if works put into it and is nerfed to the lv of half the brainless spam specs why would anyone chose it as we all know what type of effective classes get chosen the most, the easiest, brainless carry spec/builds do and we all kno how that makes out for fun matches lol. I'm just saying at least in its design it requires skill and thought to play. The game would be healthier if more classes/specs were redesigned to follow power revs example. > Condi rev/ren is spam brainless territory as well. I tried both for few matches and was far to easy to be effective adding to the large pool of carry builds in this game. People who like the class would still play it. Just like Mesmer. Mesmer HAS been nerfed in the way you describe and people still play it because they love the class and or the toons they invested time in. You are just someone who invested time in the class that WASNT nerfed in that way, YET. I remember you on the Mesmer forums back when mesmer was alive. I seem to recall you wanted the death of Mesmer which you got. That is actually what this topic is about. Its about talking about why do people actually call for for so many nerfs and ultimate dealth of ANY class. I feel mesmer, at present, is probably the best example of poorly implimented nerfs that kill a class but nobody cares cause now they don't have to fight mesmer. Now you care about rev NOT being nerfed cause its what you play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 I just rolled a rev the other day, so far it seems pretty EZ to just do mindless spam of skills and kill everything and take half damage with shitloads of boons. All without even knowing the skills or traits yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > > > > For the record I'm far from a rev main but do play the power rev somewhat often so this isn't me wanting my main to remain op or anything just a unbiased opinion after playing the class my self. I get destroyed by good revs on my war but win against bad revs easily, doesn't mean I want revs to be nerfed so their always free kills like bad revs are as I'd rather all classes get reworked mechanics wise making them as effective as good power revs and requiring the same amount of work put in which would mean a lot of classes in the game having their brainless carry especs removed and replaced with mechanics that actually require though while playing in which when played well rewards u with a beast of a spec which is definitely not how gw2 is right now. > > > > > > Sure but lets face facts, Rev and guard are, at present, the MOST over performing over tuned classes in all game modes. Hands down. No Contest. > > > > Yeah and I'm not saying a rev when played well isnt overperforming compares to most the roster but at least it requires some skill and thought. Yes if it wasn't a monster u wouldn't see it nor would people not consider it so strong but if power rev wasn't a monster if works put into it and is nerfed to the lv of half the brainless spam specs why would anyone chose it as we all know what type of effective classes get chosen the most, the easiest, brainless carry spec/builds do and we all kno how that makes out for fun matches lol. I'm just saying at least in its design it requires skill and thought to play. The game would be healthier if more classes/specs were redesigned to follow power revs example. > > Condi rev/ren is spam brainless territory as well. I tried both for few matches and was far to easy to be effective adding to the large pool of carry builds in this game. > > People who like the class would still play it. Just like Mesmer. Mesmer HAS been nerfed in the way you describe and people still play it because they love the class and or the toons they invested time in. You are just someone who invested time in the class that WASNT nerfed in that way, YET. I remember you on the Mesmer forums back when mesmer was alive. I seem to recall you wanted the death of Mesmer which you got. That is actually what this topic is about. Its about talking about why do people actually call for for so many nerfs and ultimate dealth of ANY class. I feel mesmer, at present, is probably the best example of poorly implimented nerfs that kill a class but nobody cares cause now they don't have to fight mesmer. Now you care about rev NOT being nerfed cause its what you play. Yes a few would still play it but majority wouldnt. We've all seen how many bandwagoned to necro, guard, ranger and holo post patch, far more than they have to rev still. Before patch so many bandwagoned weavers which until then was years ago ud see them often in a pvp match as those in between years u never saw em even though they were still fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top. > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?! > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession? > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game? I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out. Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay? > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story. > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post... > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example... > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012. > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable. > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+ > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all > > > > > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community. > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes. > > > > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are > > > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one". > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise. > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from? > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on. > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment. > > > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top. > > > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?! > > > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession? > > > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game? > > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out. > > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese? > > If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now