Retaliation problems

[Kondor.2904]

> @"Josh.4132" said:

> What makes me laugh is that some people here are talking like retaliation is a skill or tactic used actively to punish enemy players that attack you. This is Bull. Its a boon, which is often granted passively through traits and often requires zero input by the player. Telling someone to wait until the boon goes away is not counter play, its not like the guardian is also just gonna wait so you can take turns hitting each other lol. Waiting is not an option when guardians also have bursty damage and when there are builds which are passively pooping out this one boon, not to mention the amount of aegis, blocks and blinds that some of these builds also have whilst still being able to go full offensive. Anyone that thinks retaliation is ok should go play staff ele in a blob, use meteor shower + Lava font and count the seconds it takes for you to die from a boon... Is the ele supposed to just wait for the fb heavy blob to not have retaliation before it should start attacking? because I can assure you, that retaliation is going nowhere in any part of that fight.

 

Nah, why trying ele, they are probably cool with their own class that's not designed around multi-hit attacks. If their baseline kit allows them to ignore it (or they are spitting retal passively themselves), then it's all good and balanced. Just git gud.

[FrostSpectre.4198]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> what about forcing party to take healer, with decent mechanics, that are hard or maybe impossible to avoid, instead of passive retal. Do you see a diffrence?

 

Well, if your whole zerg is putting everything on DPS, sure you will be surprised when some Control and Support pop some counters.

You still have a choice and that choice is to risk facing a Support or Control build.

 

Support and Control builds don't seem to be very popular as far as I know when compared to DPS builds.

My guess is on that majority of players obsess on getting those kills at any cost.

 

And Drizzlewood Coast really hasn't been problem to me, since I main Necromancer, and I just love boon corruption.

[Safandula.8723]

> @"FrostSpectre.4198" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > what about forcing party to take healer, with decent mechanics, that are hard or maybe impossible to avoid, instead of passive retal. Do you see a diffrence?

>

> Well, if your whole zerg is putting everything on DPS, sure you will be surprised when some Control and Support pop some counters.

> You still have a choice and that choice is to risk facing a Support or Control build.

>

> Support and Control builds don't seem to be very popular as far as I know when compared to DPS builds.

> My guess is on that majority of players obsess on getting those kills at any cost.

>

> And Drizzlewood Coast really hasn't been problem to me, since I main Necromancer, and I just love boon corruption.

 

im quite sure i was responding to pve context. in wvw supports dont suddenly "pop up" retaliation in good moment, its just always there.

ye u should be easilly be able to run dps zerk build in open world if you can know, ur able to mitigate all mechanics coming at you. sadly retal is not the "mechanic" that can be skilfully dodged. literally only skill that lets you ignore retal is guardian's - litany of wrath. (kind of irony that only guardian has counter for guardian's boon)

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

>literally only skill that lets you ignore retal is guardian's - litany of wrath.

As Retal is a boon is may be removed by 2 Weapon Skills, 6 Utility Skills, 1 healing skill, 3 profession mechanics, and 1 Elite Skill.

It may also be Corrupted by 2 profession mechanics, 1 weapon skill, and 4 different utilities.

There are 5 Traits that directly remove Boons in combat.

 

The problem is not the Boon.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

>

 

Hmm, full glass ranger point blank fires into the enemy frontline (he is distant from his zerg) while blowing 4 of their utility skills, doing absolutely nothing because the group is together and will have full boons. Even if by some miracle he downs someone, what is the follow up? If there were reflects this would be the same story; would anyone complain that reflects are OP? (they are) as well as the zerg just breathing on the ranger. This is just a classic rallybot.

 

Now I will concede that retal does make Marksmanship's piercing arrows unviable and does push forward the case for some limitation (eg, you can only be hit by 1 source of retaliation), but even without this, this is just suicide regardless. However, you also bring up this being a problem against a single target, which suggests this issue goes beyond just retaliation if you cannot deal more than 200 damage per hit on a target that basically cannot fight back otherwise. For example, Ranger could run Natural Healing and that regen on shout trait to almost negate the damage.

 

 

Even considering this is a build loss is not really an issue; you don't bring useless builds to a raid/fractal because that's just leeching; why would you bring a useless build to WvW? If a build is worth anything in a blob, then you should be able to axe 5 in the middle of all that and come out alive. And in all seriousness, do you expect Anet to balance 1vblob?

[Josh.4132]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

 

> Hmm, full glass ranger point blank fires into the enemy frontline (he is distant from his zerg) while blowing 4 of their utility skills, doing absolutely nothing because the group is together and will have full boons. Even if by some miracle he downs someone, what is the follow up? If there were reflects this would be the same story; would anyone complain that reflects are OP? (they are) as well as the zerg just breathing on the ranger. This is just a classic rallybot.

 

Although ironically people have said "wait for retaliation to end", which isn't really possible, where as you can wait for reflects to end because they generally have short durations and mostly highly visible. Reflects are the counter to projectiles and that's their exact purpose. They also mostly require some input from the player rather than being granted passively like retaliation. Personally I think its insane that that ranger just went from 60% hp to 0% in 3 seconds for hitting enemies that had a completely passive mechanic.

 

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> Now I will concede that retal does make Marksmanship's piercing arrows unviable and does push forward the case for some limitation (eg, you can only be hit by 1 source of retaliation), but even without this, this is just suicide regardless. However, you also bring up this being a problem against a single target, which suggests this issue goes beyond just retaliation if you cannot deal more than 200 damage per hit on a target that basically cannot fight back otherwise. For example, Ranger could run Natural Healing and that regen on shout trait to almost negate the damage.

 

But this is just one example, there are quite a few builds and weapons that can not be used because of this one boon. Its also quite shocking that a boon can make builds unviable. Imagine if scourge inflicted aoe confusion instead of torment on shade skills, the QQ here would be insane, yet retaliation is literally the weaker, boon version of confusion and what did anet do to confusion? practically deleted it because it was bs.

 

 

[Safandula.8723]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> >

>

> Hmm, full glass ranger point blank fires into the enemy frontline (he is distant from his zerg) while blowing 4 of their utility skills, doing absolutely nothing because the group is together and will have full boons. Even if by some miracle he downs someone, what is the follow up? If there were reflects this would be the same story; would anyone complain that reflects are OP? (they are) as well as the zerg just breathing on the ranger. This is just a classic rallybot.

>

> Now I will concede that retal does make Marksmanship's piercing arrows unviable and does push forward the case for some limitation (eg, you can only be hit by 1 source of retaliation), but even without this, this is just suicide regardless. However, you also bring up this being a problem against a single target, which suggests this issue goes beyond just retaliation if you cannot deal more than 200 damage per hit on a target that basically cannot fight back otherwise. For example, Ranger could run Natural Healing and that regen on shout trait to almost negate the damage.

>

>

> Even considering this is a build loss is not really an issue; you don't bring useless builds to a raid/fractal because that's just leeching; why would you bring a useless build to WvW? If a build is worth anything in a blob, then you should be able to axe 5 in the middle of all that and come out alive. And in all seriousness, do you expect Anet to balance 1vblob?

 

Ur logic is so full of false statements, its not even worth of pointing it out

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Josh.4132" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

>

> > Hmm, full glass ranger point blank fires into the enemy frontline (he is distant from his zerg) while blowing 4 of their utility skills, doing absolutely nothing because the group is together and will have full boons. Even if by some miracle he downs someone, what is the follow up? If there were reflects this would be the same story; would anyone complain that reflects are OP? (they are) as well as the zerg just breathing on the ranger. This is just a classic rallybot.

>

> Although ironically people have said "wait for retaliation to end", which isn't really possible, where as you can wait for reflects to end because they generally have short durations and mostly highly visible. Reflects are the counter to projectiles and that's their exact purpose. They also mostly require some input from the player rather than being granted passively like retaliation. Personally I think its insane that that ranger just went from 60% hp to 0% in 3 seconds for hitting enemies that had a completely passive mechanic.

 

Reflects are handed out like candy to Firebrands, and there's also like an overwhelming amount of projectile blocks. I suppose there are unblockable attacks that counter this, but that's another topic. Point is full glass + bad execution = you can blame a lot of things.

 

And yes, you don't wait for retaliation to end; you wait for the tail to be strung out and burst them. That way that side will have more boons stripped and you're also hitting not the entire stack. It's just playing smart.

 

 

>

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > Now I will concede that retal does make Marksmanship's piercing arrows unviable and does push forward the case for some limitation (eg, you can only be hit by 1 source of retaliation), but even without this, this is just suicide regardless. However, you also bring up this being a problem against a single target, which suggests this issue goes beyond just retaliation if you cannot deal more than 200 damage per hit on a target that basically cannot fight back otherwise. For example, Ranger could run Natural Healing and that regen on shout trait to almost negate the damage.

>

> But this is just one example, there are quite a few builds and weapons that can not be used because of this one boon. Its also quite shocking that a boon can make builds unviable. Imagine if scourge inflicted aoe confusion instead of torment on shade skills, the QQ here would be insane, yet retaliation is literally the weaker, boon version of confusion and what did anet do to confusion? practically deleted it because it was bs.

>

>

 

Which is why I suggested being only able to be damaged by 1 source of retaliation. And the examples presented thus far are pretty bad, you have to admit.

 

Also people QQ over literally anything, so that's not a good way to measure it.

 

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > >

> >

> > Hmm, full glass ranger point blank fires into the enemy frontline (he is distant from his zerg) while blowing 4 of their utility skills, doing absolutely nothing because the group is together and will have full boons. Even if by some miracle he downs someone, what is the follow up? If there were reflects this would be the same story; would anyone complain that reflects are OP? (they are) as well as the zerg just breathing on the ranger. This is just a classic rallybot.

> >

> > Now I will concede that retal does make Marksmanship's piercing arrows unviable and does push forward the case for some limitation (eg, you can only be hit by 1 source of retaliation), but even without this, this is just suicide regardless. However, you also bring up this being a problem against a single target, which suggests this issue goes beyond just retaliation if you cannot deal more than 200 damage per hit on a target that basically cannot fight back otherwise. For example, Ranger could run Natural Healing and that regen on shout trait to almost negate the damage.

> >

> >

> > Even considering this is a build loss is not really an issue; you don't bring useless builds to a raid/fractal because that's just leeching; why would you bring a useless build to WvW? If a build is worth anything in a blob, then you should be able to axe 5 in the middle of all that and come out alive. And in all seriousness, do you expect Anet to balance 1vblob?

>

> Ur logic is so full of false statements, its not even worth of pointing it out

 

Hey at least I have a winning record vs Minstrel Firebrands. Just wanted to help out here; thought you could enjoy being a contributing member to your team.

[Josh.4132]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

 

> Reflects are handed out like candy to Firebrands, and there's also like an overwhelming amount of projectile blocks. I suppose there are unblockable attacks that counter this, but that's another topic. Point is full glass + bad execution = you can blame a lot of things.

 

You mean F3 skill 3? On a tome with a rather large cd? On the spec that is basically made to support a team through utility/boons because its heals are garbage? The difference is popping a reflect is active gameplay. The player has purposefully used a skill to counter projectiles, regardless of if its spam or not, its active gameplay. Retaliation is passive, and didn't anet say they wanted to promote active game play and thats why certain traits now have 300s cool downs? The problem here is that people stack firebrands, and therefore have tonnes of reflects.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Josh.4132" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

>

> > Reflects are handed out like candy to Firebrands, and there's also like an overwhelming amount of projectile blocks. I suppose there are unblockable attacks that counter this, but that's another topic. Point is full glass + bad execution = you can blame a lot of things.

>

> You mean F3 skill 3? On a tome with a rather large cd? On the spec that is basically made to support a team through utility/boons because its heals are garbage? The difference is popping a reflect is active gameplay. The player has purposefully used a skill to counter projectiles, regardless of if its spam or not, its active gameplay. Retaliation is passive, and didn't anet say they wanted to promote active game play and thats why certain traits now have 300s cool downs? The problem here is that people stack firebrands, and therefore have tonnes of reflects.

>

 

But of which the Firebrands will use anyways upon engaging because that tome gives stability and resistance It's easy because it only takes a few bubbles to render any projectiles useless. Even without firebrands you still have burn guards doing reflects because it's a massive damage increase and even without that you have tempests with aura share. The result is the same-- all meta damage classes use ground target AOEs. This was even true before Firebrand was a thing. I'm also not really sure a class that heals by dodging or Aegis which gets crapped out everywhere is crap heals; maybe compared to scrapper or ele, but guard/necro has been dominant for many reasons.

 

I mean you can argue all of this is active but when it is so trivially part of what people would do anyways, it really isn't. Yes, this is because people stack firebrands, but it's also responsible for retal uptime too....

 

As for promoting active gameplay, well sure, that's why we have boon strips.

[Cerioth.7062]

Retal is just fine as a mechanic, and fairly common in most MMOs.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

> @"Josh.4132" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

>

> > Reflects are handed out like candy to Firebrands, and there's also like an overwhelming amount of projectile blocks. I suppose there are unblockable attacks that counter this, but that's another topic. Point is full glass + bad execution = you can blame a lot of things.

>

> You mean F3 skill 3? On a tome with a rather large cd? On the spec that is basically made to support a team through utility/boons because its heals are garbage? The difference is popping a reflect is active gameplay. The player has purposefully used a skill to counter projectiles, regardless of if its spam or not, its active gameplay. Retaliation is passive, and didn't anet say they wanted to promote active game play and thats why certain traits now have 300s cool downs? The problem here is that people stack firebrands, and therefore have tonnes of reflects.

>

 

Could we, please, not mix up reflect (from skills) and retaliation (boon)? They aren't the same even as both are "returning" to the one that are attacking damage.

 

Retaliation do still give damage to target even when attacker will also get damage from using its skills to attack. Reflected damage is mainly preventing projectiles to hit target and that way also do prevent target to get any damage from projectiles (but will still take all other type of damage like from ground AoE or non-projectiles).

[Josh.4132]

> @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

 

>

> Could we, please, not mix up reflect (from skills) and retaliation (boon)? They aren't the same even as both are "returning" to the one that are attacking damage.

>

> Retaliation do still give damage to target even when attacker will also get damage from using its skills to attack. Reflected damage is mainly preventing projectiles to hit target and that way also do prevent target to get any damage from projectiles (but will still take all other type of damage like from ground AoE or non-projectiles).

 

Who's mixing them up? because if you read my comment again, and my other posts in the thread, you'll see I do nothing but compared them which obviously implies they are different things, because they so clearly are. If you mean I shouldn't be comparing the two because they are so different then thats fair, but thats not what I'm trying to point out. My point is reflects are a counter to projectiles and are active defence options. Retaliation is practically the complete opposite and I think its purpose in a competitive game mode is completely out of place. If you are fully bursting a target, no matter how many skills you use, that target should die/ or be low, not the player doing the burst. It should be up to the player to actively counter the other player's burst to avoid being downed, not relying on a passive boon to cause damage.

[DirtyDan.4759]

Stop hitting yourself.

[crepuscular.9047]

What I'm confused about is how does retal work on ranged attacks? should work on melee attacks only

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"Josh.4132" said:

> > @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

>

> >

> > Could we, please, not mix up reflect (from skills) and retaliation (boon)? They aren't the same even as both are "returning" to the one that are attacking damage.

> >

> > Retaliation do still give damage to target even when attacker will also get damage from using its skills to attack. Reflected damage is mainly preventing projectiles to hit target and that way also do prevent target to get any damage from projectiles (but will still take all other type of damage like from ground AoE or non-projectiles).

>

> Who's mixing them up? because if you read my comment again, and my other posts in the thread, you'll see I do nothing but compared them which obviously implies they are different things, because they so clearly are. If you mean I shouldn't be comparing the two because they are so different then thats fair, but thats not what I'm trying to point out. My point is reflects are a counter to projectiles and are active defence options. Retaliation is practically the complete opposite and I think its purpose in a competitive game mode is completely out of place. If you are fully bursting a target, no matter how many skills you use, that target should die/ or be low, not the player doing the burst. It should be up to the player to actively counter the other player's burst to avoid being downed, not relying on a passive boon to cause damage.

 

But that's the thing, it's so easy and effective that people don't want it to be anything else. Sounds about right for these kind of PvPers with their fake "challenge". The easier the win, the better.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> You attacked into a sea of red and died. Not really surprised.

So, you're saying, that when attacking a number of enemies, using AoE attacks is a bad idea.

Duly noted.

 

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > You attacked into a sea of red and died. Not really surprised.

> So, you're saying, that when attacking a number of enemies, using AoE attacks is a bad idea.

> Duly noted.

>

 

Without due consideration, many things in the game are a bad idea.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

> @"Josh.4132" said:

> > @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

>

> >

> > Could we, please, not mix up reflect (from skills) and retaliation (boon)? They aren't the same even as both are "returning" to the one that are attacking damage.

> >

> > Retaliation do still give damage to target even when attacker will also get damage from using its skills to attack. Reflected damage is mainly preventing projectiles to hit target and that way also do prevent target to get any damage from projectiles (but will still take all other type of damage like from ground AoE or non-projectiles).

>

> Who's mixing them up? because if you read my comment again, and my other posts in the thread, you'll see I do nothing but compared them which obviously implies they are different things, because they so clearly are. If you mean I shouldn't be comparing the two because they are so different then thats fair, but thats not what I'm trying to point out. My point is reflects are a counter to projectiles and are active defence options. Retaliation is practically the complete opposite and I think its purpose in a competitive game mode is completely out of place. If you are fully bursting a target, no matter how many skills you use, that target should die/ or be low, not the player doing the burst. It should be up to the player to actively counter the other player's burst to avoid being downed, not relying on a passive boon to cause damage.

 

My response where actually more directed to @"Safandula.8723" and how some people seem to ignore the fact that target ALWAYS will take full damage even when it have Retaliation as boon active (it can only stack in duration up to five times since some patch changed this).

 

What happens is that game calculate a damage on attacker that is: [(0.050 * Power) + 133 damage] at Level 80 for PvP and WvW and [(0.075 * Power) + 200 damage] at Level 80 (see GW2 wiki for source). It means that the one player that is source for this boon will be the one that provide "Power" in this calculation (not necessary the same player as the one that have this boon). As an example with Berserker gear and Runes that give +175 Power the total Power will be around 2550. Damage will then be 0.05 x 2550 = 127,5 as base and in PvP/WvW 260,5 (+133) and in PvE 327,5 (+200).

 

If target have Blind (condition) then it will not be any damage on attacker as target will negate the initial calculation (same would happen for miss or evade). As Retaliation is based on Power as only source, any condition based player will only have base damage for Power at 1000 (50 as base and depending on PvE: 250 or PvP/WvW: 183 added). In short this type of damage can be only in a range for WvW/PvP from 183 to around 260 and for PvE 250 to 328. Condition based players will have much lower damage as source for providing Retaliation damage from this boon vs a Power based player.

 

Reflected damage mitigation is based on projectiles and conditions related for whether it will land on attacker. Reflected damage can be a skill or an effect (which work as boon in this game that is tied to use of a skill or trait - can not be manipulated by tools that boon otherwise would be part of like boon rips or converted to conditions). As long attacker use skills that are seen as projectiles those can be reflected (only **Unblockable** projectiles can hit target and is one way damage). Reflected damage will have same impact as as attacker sent it to target, if it is successfully reflected and is limited to two times reflect, unless they are fully blocked (Aegis or effect that blocks). [i don't think it is possible to test more or realistic to expect a reflected projectile to go back and forth with both attacker and target to reflect more times then this]

 

To sum it up:

 

Retaliation can be countered by having Regeneration that each second will heal with [130 + (healing power x 0.125)] pr second. As one can see from those 130 for Regeneration as base, it looks very much the same as PvP/WvW with 133 in how Retaliation is being calculated, if we don't look at Power as variable or healing power. The impact on Retaliation could be negated by high healing (power) or by boon manipulation like ripping or converting boon.

 

Retaliation is the power version of a condition as it will do damage each hit that is not negated by target (target need to have had taken a hit/damage from attack) when target get hit from attacker which then is calculated at the same time on attacker side. This boon is limited to only five stack/tick that only adds in duration (but each tick is calculated depending on which source that is for this boon: Mesmer can not give Retaliation from Signet of Inspiration any more, only duration so it have been limited to the player that have boon as source for where the Power is calculated from. Have not checked other possible profession that can give Retaliation as boon to other player then themselves).

 

Guardian, Dragonhunter and FB start at 3 3/4 seconds Retaliation for Virtue/Tomes [F1-F3] when Virtues are picked as trait. At max it can be up to 6 seconds when boon duration are maxed out with Runes (Superior Runes of FB - not useful for DH or Core as they don't have Quickness) and (Diviner) Concentration as attributes. Both Retaliation and Quickness at 100% duration. There are some traits that procs from certain conditions like hard CC or Aegis that ends with Retaliation and Fury. There are Shouts (skill) that have longer duration, but in general then you have to build to use more or less only Retaliation and boons in general.

 

Revenant seem to have more option in this way to both share this boon and to use it without going too deep into build.ing into it. Any way Retaliation do a limited damage that are more depending on how fast you attack with multiple hits in the same time frame and make use of Power instead of Condition Damage (but have more or less same impact by chipping down HP). It is not something that make a Mistral FB avoid to take any damage, if you have enough Power or even have some Condition Damage (with some duration) to add above Retaliation damage.

 

What people in WvW die from most is still the big hits that chunk away a large part of HP before it is possible to do anything.

 

Source:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regeneration

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

>

 

This is what they deserve for just standing back and pewpewing. Running away and kiting on a ranger/deadeye that has 1500 range needs to be combated somehow for melee characters like a guardian and honestly, I'm ok with retal being one option for that. The design of retal allows a person to close that gap and not just get killed in the process. The only reason I could see a person crying for a boon to be removed from the game is because they do not have a fundamental understanding of how boon strips work. This is on you to learn how the mechanics of the game function and how to work around them.

[Safandula.8723]

> @"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> >

>

> This is what they deserve for just standing back and pewpewing. Running away and kiting on a ranger/deadeye that has 1500 range needs to be combated somehow for melee characters like a guardian and honestly, I'm ok with retal being one option for that. The design of retal allows a person to close that gap and not just get killed in the process. The only reason I could see a person crying for a boon to be removed from the game is because they do not have a fundamental understanding of how boon strips work. This is on you to learn how the mechanics of the game function and how to work around them.

 

what about nerfing ranged classes as they are bs obviously and cut out retal that is cucking everyone else. so are you saying that retal is made to close the gaps while fighting rangers?

 

> @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

> > @"Josh.4132" said:

> > > @"ShadowCatz.8437" said:

> >

> > >

> > > Could we, please, not mix up reflect (from skills) and retaliation (boon)? They aren't the same even as both are "returning" to the one that are attacking damage.

> > >

> > > Retaliation do still give damage to target even when attacker will also get damage from using its skills to attack. Reflected damage is mainly preventing projectiles to hit target and that way also do prevent target to get any damage from projectiles (but will still take all other type of damage like from ground AoE or non-projectiles).

> >

> > Who's mixing them up? because if you read my comment again, and my other posts in the thread, you'll see I do nothing but compared them which obviously implies they are different things, because they so clearly are. If you mean I shouldn't be comparing the two because they are so different then thats fair, but thats not what I'm trying to point out. My point is reflects are a counter to projectiles and are active defence options. Retaliation is practically the complete opposite and I think its purpose in a competitive game mode is completely out of place. If you are fully bursting a target, no matter how many skills you use, that target should die/ or be low, not the player doing the burst. It should be up to the player to actively counter the other player's burst to avoid being downed, not relying on a passive boon to cause damage.

>

> My response where actually more directed to @"Safandula.8723" and how some people seem to ignore the fact that target ALWAYS will take full damage even when it have Retaliation as boon active (it can only stack in duration up to five times since some patch changed this).

>

> What happens is that game calculate a damage on attacker that is: [(0.050 * Power) + 133 damage] at Level 80 for PvP and WvW and [(0.075 * Power) + 200 damage] at Level 80 (see GW2 wiki for source). It means that the one player that is source for this boon will be the one that provide "Power" in this calculation (not necessary the same player as the one that have this boon). As an example with Berserker gear and Runes that give +175 Power the total Power will be around 2550. Damage will then be 0.05 x 2550 = 127,5 as base and in PvP/WvW 260,5 (+133) and in PvE 327,5 (+200).

>

> If target have Blind (condition) then it will not be any damage on attacker as target will negate the initial calculation (same would happen for miss or evade). As Retaliation is based on Power as only source, any condition based player will only have base damage for Power at 1000 (50 as base and depending on PvE: 250 or PvP/WvW: 183 added). In short this type of damage can be only in a range for WvW/PvP from 183 to around 260 and for PvE 250 to 328. Condition based players will have much lower damage as source for providing Retaliation damage from this boon vs a Power based player.

>

> Reflected damage mitigation is based on projectiles and conditions related for whether it will land on attacker. Reflected damage can be a skill or an effect (which work as boon in this game that is tied to use of a skill or trait - can not be manipulated by tools that boon otherwise would be part of like boon rips or converted to conditions). As long attacker use skills that are seen as projectiles those can be reflected (only **Unblockable** projectiles can hit target and is one way damage). Reflected damage will have same impact as as attacker sent it to target, if it is successfully reflected and is limited to two times reflect, unless they are fully blocked (Aegis or effect that blocks). [i don't think it is possible to test more or realistic to expect a reflected projectile to go back and forth with both attacker and target to reflect more times then this]

>

> To sum it up:

>

> Retaliation can be countered by having Regeneration that each second will heal with [130 + (healing power x 0.125)] pr second. As one can see from those 130 for Regeneration as base, it looks very much the same as PvP/WvW with 133 in how Retaliation is being calculated, if we don't look at Power as variable or healing power. The impact on Retaliation could be negated by high healing (power) or by boon manipulation like ripping or converting boon.

>

> Retaliation is the power version of a condition as it will do damage each hit that is not negated by target (target need to have had taken a hit/damage from attack) when target get hit from attacker which then is calculated at the same time on attacker side. This boon is limited to only five stack/tick that only adds in duration (but each tick is calculated depending on which source that is for this boon: Mesmer can not give Retaliation from Signet of Inspiration any more, only duration so it have been limited to the player that have boon as source for where the Power is calculated from. Have not checked other possible profession that can give Retaliation as boon to other player then themselves).

>

> Guardian, Dragonhunter and FB start at 3 3/4 seconds Retaliation for Virtue/Tomes [F1-F3] when Virtues are picked as trait. At max it can be up to 6 seconds when boon duration are maxed out with Runes (Superior Runes of FB - not useful for DH or Core as they don't have Quickness) and (Diviner) Concentration as attributes. Both Retaliation and Quickness at 100% duration. There are some traits that procs from certain conditions like hard CC or Aegis that ends with Retaliation and Fury. There are Shouts (skill) that have longer duration, but in general then you have to build to use more or less only Retaliation and boons in general.

>

> Revenant seem to have more option in this way to both share this boon and to use it without going too deep into build.ing into it. Any way Retaliation do a limited damage that are more depending on how fast you attack with multiple hits in the same time frame and make use of Power instead of Condition Damage (but have more or less same impact by chipping down HP). It is not something that make a Mistral FB avoid to take any damage, if you have enough Power or even have some Condition Damage (with some duration) to add above Retaliation damage.

>

> What people in WvW die from most is still the big hits that chunk away a large part of HP before it is possible to do anything.

>

> Source:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regeneration

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

 

i dont rly understand why u write all of this, just wanted to point out regen doestn counter retal reliably

[saerni.2584]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > You attacked into a sea of red and died. Not really surprised.

> So, you're saying, that when attacking a number of enemies, using AoE attacks is a bad idea.

> Duly noted.

>

 

The video had a number of issues from my perspective. The ranger was out of position and using attacks on a large enemy group that had a very low chance of killing or downing any particular player.

 

At the start of the clip we see the ranger using an AoE into a section of the enemy forces that is triggering retaliation feedback from the start. We also see that most of their utility cooldowns, except for their heal, have already been triggered. Next, we see that the ranger is targeting a FB who has retaliation, among many other boons, up and starts a rapid fire sequence. This is where most of the damage from retaliation comes in. At no time, however, does the target’s HP drop below 100%.

 

As someone who uses projectiles, I have a few thoughts on the failure of the ranger here to do any appreciable damage except to themselves. First, reflect is generally a far more dangerous issue for ranged damage dealers. You are much more likely to run into a magnetic aura, or a random reflect ability, in group play than 1v1 and boon corrupts can handle things like retaliation. So if fighting in a group you need to be prepared to cancel casts to stop from hurting yourself. This applies to reflects but also retaliation to an extent. If retaliation is an issue you need to bring an ally with boon corrupts or be prepared to stow your weapons.

 

Second, you need to be able to pick your targets. Casting into retaliation with a multi hit attack is generally a bad idea unless you have some form of personal boonstrip that will take retaliation away.

 

Last, I’ll return to what I stated earlier—that the ranger was out of position. If you are a roaming sniper you should not be firing into a blob of players like that. You don’t do enough damage to solo them and the tag can’t support you from the opposite side of the red blob. Just like picking the target with retaliation was a mistake so was not picking a target that had fallen behind the group.

[MrForz.1953]

> @"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> >

>

> This is what they deserve for just standing back and pewpewing. Running away and kiting on a ranger/deadeye that has 1500 range needs to be combated somehow for melee characters like a guardian and honestly, I'm ok with retal being one option for that. The design of retal allows a person to close that gap and not just get killed in the process. The only reason I could see a person crying for a boon to be removed from the game is because they do not have a fundamental understanding of how boon strips work. This is on you to learn how the mechanics of the game function and how to work around them.

 

In short, bring your own guardians stacked together in groups.

[Safandula.8723]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > You attacked into a sea of red and died. Not really surprised.

> > So, you're saying, that when attacking a number of enemies, using AoE attacks is a bad idea.

> > Duly noted.

> >

>

> The video had a number of issues from my perspective. The ranger was out of position and using attacks on a large enemy group that had a very low chance of killing or downing any particular player.

>

> At the start of the clip we see the ranger using an AoE into a section of the enemy forces that is triggering retaliation feedback from the start. We also see that most of their utility cooldowns, except for their heal, have already been triggered. Next, we see that the ranger is targeting a FB who has retaliation, among many other boons, up and starts a rapid fire sequence. This is where most of the damage from retaliation comes in. At no time, however, does the target’s HP drop below 100%.

>

> As someone who uses projectiles, I have a few thoughts on the failure of the ranger here to do any appreciable damage except to themselves. First, reflect is generally a far more dangerous issue for ranged damage dealers. You are much more likely to run into a magnetic aura, or a random reflect ability, in group play than 1v1 and boon corrupts can handle things like retaliation. So if fighting in a group you need to be prepared to cancel casts to stop from hurting yourself. This applies to reflects but also retaliation to an extent. If retaliation is an issue you need to bring an ally with boon corrupts or be prepared to stow your weapons.

>

> Second, you need to be able to pick your targets. Casting into retaliation with a multi hit attack is generally a bad idea unless you have some form of personal boonstrip that will take retaliation away.

>

> Last, I’ll return to what I stated earlier—that the ranger was out of position. If you are a roaming sniper you should not be firing into a blob of players like that. You don’t do enough damage to solo them and the tag can’t support you from the opposite side of the red blob. Just like picking the target with retaliation was a mistake so was not picking a target that had fallen behind the group.

 

First of all this ranger is aiming commander to put an additional pressure on him, and Yes he want to be out of position as his only rolę is to burst fb. He dont need boons like stab or prot, so his position is good. It doesnt matter if he use barrage at start as retal Will be on enemies for every single attack anyway.

As u can See in video retal is worse than reflect as reflects from minstrel deal only small portion of dmg.

No healer would be Able to effectivly counter this dmg.

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > @"Delita Silverburg.8632" said:

> > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > >

> >

> > This is what they deserve for just standing back and pewpewing. Running away and kiting on a ranger/deadeye that has 1500 range needs to be combated somehow for melee characters like a guardian and honestly, I'm ok with retal being one option for that. The design of retal allows a person to close that gap and not just get killed in the process. The only reason I could see a person crying for a boon to be removed from the game is because they do not have a fundamental understanding of how boon strips work. This is on you to learn how the mechanics of the game function and how to work around them.

>

> what about nerfing ranged classes as they are bs obviously and cut out retal that is cucking everyone else. so are you saying that retal is made to close the gaps while fighting rangers?

 

I'm saying it's one option of interaction for the exact example you provided. There are plenty of other ways of counter play available as well. Nerfing ranged classes doesn't solve the problem either. Having different ways to play the game is what keeps people coming back. My point is that you can't cry for a boon to be removed that has a legitimate function in the game., and has counter play against it. You do not just have to "wait for it to fall off", you can just as easily boon strip it. Play a necro or spellbreaker for a change of pace if you're struggling, or heck, even run marauder's gear to give yourself a larger health pool to react/survive. IMO if you play a glass cannon zerker build, you get what you pay for. You might one shot some peeps, but if an intelligent person reacts by giving themselves retal, it's a legitimate strategy of counter play.