Where are the trade offs of herald and holo?

[whoknocks.4935]

Returned to the game after many months absence.

I saw Anet pushed this trade off logic for elite specialization, to make them an alternative to core and not a straight up upgrade, and I saw it worked for quite a few of specs, making core builds way more viable and in many cases even better than the elites.

 

But where are the trade offs for herald and holosmith?

When I left the game those two specs were the no-brainer go to specs for easy monkey leaderboard climbing, as an average bronze-silver player I pushed to plat the last season i played using these two specs.

 

Now i returned and I see they are even more braindead than before, especially the condi rev variant.

 

Why don't you make herald use only one legend while in combat to keep the soulbeast logic? And rework the traits to synergy with this change?

 

About holosmith i don't know, rise the heat generated by the skills by 100% or 200%, so you actually have to use carefully just 1 or 2 skills and then leave holo mode, right now it's too spammable and the nerfs to stability, shockwave didn't have a great impact.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:

 

1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.

2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.

 

Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.

Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.

And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.

[Skyronight.6370]

core rev is alrdy pretty good cuz u can use jalis and mallyx or jalis and shiro for power, i guess the herald trade off is u dont have stability or tankiness that u could have with core jalis instead.

 

for holo the heat system is a trade off too , if u overheat u get punished

[mortrialus.3062]

Revenant loses Ancient Echo. Holosmith loses their elite tool belt skill.

 

Which goes to show how ridiculously out of whack the whole implementation of "trade offs" has been when compared to what Chronomancer, Mirage, Druid suffer when taking their elite specs.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

> Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:

>

> 1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.

> 2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.

>

> Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.

> Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.

> And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.

 

Holosmith has never been mentioned as scheduled for additional trade off not once by Arenanet. By their measure Holosmith gives up one skill that isn't even that good, therefore it has a trade off. Same with Firebrand.

[Eugchriss.2046]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Revenant loses Ancient Echo. Holosmith loses their elite tool belt skill.

>

> Which goes to show how ridiculously out of whack the whole implementation of "trade offs" has been when compared to what Chronomancer, Mirage, Druid suffer when taking their elite specs.

I don t know for holo, but for rev, the trade-off is pretty good IMO. The thing is glint is so busted that it eclipses the trade-off. Try to play herald without glint and you will witness this yourself.

 

[Eugchriss.2046]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

> > Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:

> >

> > 1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.

> > 2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.

> >

> > Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.

> > Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.

> > And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.

>

> Holosmith has never been mentioned as scheduled for additional trade off not once by Arenanet. By their measure Holosmith gives up one skill that isn't even that good, therefore it has a trade-off. Same with Firebrand.

A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now

For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

> > > Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:

> > >

> > > 1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.

> > > 2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.

> > >

> > > Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.

> > > Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.

> > > And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.

> >

> > Holosmith has never been mentioned as scheduled for additional trade off not once by Arenanet. By their measure Holosmith gives up one skill that isn't even that good, therefore it has a trade-off. Same with Firebrand.

> A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now

> For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

>

 

Holosmith losing all their toolbelts would make more sense. Maybe keep the F1 because that would completely bork med kit.

 

Firebrand should keep their three tomes but using one puts all of them on cooldown on a shared cooldown imo. Gain access to multiskill tomes but you can't use back to back to back like core virtues.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Revenant loses Ancient Echo. Holosmith loses their elite tool belt skill.

>

> Which goes to show how ridiculously out of whack the whole implementation of "trade offs" has been when compared to what Chronomancer, Mirage, Druid suffer when taking their elite specs.

 

some how people always forget about berserker.

 

holo should be loosing all tool belt skill, the trade off implementation is so off scale and after thought, it's insane.

[Koen.1327]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> Returned to the game after many months absence.

> I saw Anet pushed this trade off logic for elite specialization, to make them an alternative to core and not a straight up upgrade, and I saw it worked for quite a few of specs, making core builds way more viable and in many cases even better than the elites.

>

> But where are the trade offs for herald and holosmith?

> When I left the game those two specs were the no-brainer go to specs for easy monkey leaderboard climbing, as an average bronze-silver player I pushed to plat the last season i played using these two specs.

>

> Now i returned and I see they are even more braindead than before, especially the condi rev variant.

>

> Why don't you make herald use only one legend while in combat to keep the soulbeast logic? And rework the traits to synergy with this change?

>

> About holosmith i don't know, rise the heat generated by the skills by 100% or 200%, so you actually have to use carefully just 1 or 2 skills and then leave holo mode, right now it's too spammable and the nerfs to stability, shockwave didn't have a great impact.

 

holo dont use so much in photon mode already compared to before

mostly keep heat in 3rd tier with corona burst to keep 25 might - sword and especially nades have much more dmg

heat management is more important now, the trade off holo has i guess

[Shao.7236]

Heralds have a trade off, it's just too bad people fall for the same one trick pony that is Infuse Light. Doesn't help that there's a huge obsession with conditions lately for whatever reason.

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

He meant Firebrand.

Where is Firebrand trade off?

[bravan.3876]

Instead of asking to spread out that trade off nonsense to other elites, we should start a rebellion by all available means until Anet develops the backbones to revert or at least rework the nonsense already happend in that regard and replace it with nerfs/ reworks at the right spots instead, nerfs/ reworks don't contradict mechanics, don't delete active gameplay options/ mechanics, don't delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity until all elites are dumbed down (or even unplayable) to a lvl every monkey can play the braindead meta and feel like a pro with barely any skill.

[Meteor.3720]

The overheat mechanic on holo should be brought into play a lot more imo.

At the moment, it simply means you can't stay in holo mode the whole time, which isn't much of an issue because you can then cycle through other skills/ utilities etc.

If they made it much more likely to overheat, but then tuned down the overheat punishment, it might introduce more balance.

[Abyssisis.3971]

All elite classes need a trade off where you actually have to give something up, not just trade skills for skills as in the case of holosmith and firebrand.

[Falan.1839]

Elite Toolbelt skill is lost and Overheat puts your whole toolbelt on CD.

[soul.6527]

@"Abyssisis.3971" All classes need trade off? are you saying Mesmer doesn’t have the trade off? You lose a dodge for mirage and you lose distortion for chrono and the ability to use shatters without a clone up isn’t enough for ya?

[Shiyo.3578]

Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

[Abyssisis.3971]

> @"soul.6527" said:

> @"Abyssisis.3971" All classes need trade off? are you saying Mesmer doesn’t have the trade off? You lose a dodge for mirage and you lose distortion for chrono and the ability to use shatters without a clone up isn’t enough for ya?

 

I never mentioned chrono or mirage didn’t have a trade off. I’m saying all classes need to lose something in order to take an elite spec. Some classes currently do not lose anything, instead trade skills for skills as in the case of holo and firebrand.

 

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> Elite Toolbelt skill is lost and Overheat puts your whole toolbelt on CD.

 

Trading skills for skills is not a trade off.

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

 

They got a tradeup with the 3rd dodge, but any thief ever will tell you about the swipe nerf lol

[Eurantien.4632]

> @"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

> Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:

>

> 1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.

> 2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.

>

> Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.

> Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.

> And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.

 

Soulbeast had similar trade offs

 

1. Soulbeast when merged has many skills that dont work.

2. Pet can die.

3. Pet not out when merged.

 

Then it got a real tradeoff. 1 pet.

 

So they could go more trade-offy for a lot of specs imo

[Virdo.1540]

heralds tradeoff that is has to play with Glint.

 

Without glint, herald traitline is pretty bad.

As power Shiro/Dwarf is good too. Doesnt rely on boons (that much), so less to corrupt + its losing special buffs to sustain/mobility/condi-management.... to boon support

 

F2 on herald is good for teamfights, as single fighter F2 on core is WAY better.

[bravan.3876]

You need to switch out a 3. core traitline to get the elite, that is already a trade off. All you need to do is nerf the power lvl of elite traitlines in a way that they are not stronger than the strongest core traitline. For that it is not necessary to delete parts of, cripple or contradict the elite (or class) mechanic, make it clunky at best, deletes skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechnaical complexity in most cases, makes it unplayable at worst. It just needs normal nerfs to the power lvl of the elite in case they are stronger (like when Fb has more f-skills to use, each skill needs to be weaker than the 3 core f skills, to compensate the higher number of skills and not delete tomes from Fb as a mechanical nonsense trade off).

 

But as said most time the defensive core traitlines are the biggest problem in terms of power lvl and power creep (they give too much sustain without enough opporunity costs in dmg, having high passivity lvl or providing mistake friendly facetank sustain and having low skill floor/ ceiling). Second problem is the high synergy from elites to specific core traitlines. And also here giving a mechanical trade off to elites to compensate either of those issues is the wrong way.

 

> @"Abyssisis.3971" said:

> All elite classes need a trade off where you actually have to give something up, not just trade skills for skills as in the case of holosmith and firebrand.

 

Ofc it is enough of a trade off when you give up skills for skills. Important is, that those skills have around the same power lvl. Otherwise you want elites to be a downgrade.

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Daredevil has essentially no trade off either

 

In Anets definition of mechanical trade off (at least the definition that causes the least inconsistency in Anets actions regarding the already exisiting trade offs, in fact Anet never rly gave us a definiton we could work with) Daredevil has a trade off by giving up core steal. Mirage has a trade off by giving up normal dodge. The one dodge change was not a trade off, it was just a normal nerf to MC. Fb has to give up core f-skills. Rev has to give up core f1. Holo gives up core f5.

 

If you want a wall of text about why Anets trade off agenda is inconsistent, no matter what definition you try to use, i made a big analysis about it:

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97997/trade-offs-anets-definiton-and-execution-an-almost-unbiased-analysis-try#latest

 

A lot of ppl in this thread seems to be still confused about what is a (mechanical) trade off and what not (means only a normal nerf). Like:

 

> @"Virdo.1540" said:

> heralds tradeoff that is has to play with Glint.

>

> Without glint, herald traitline is pretty bad.

> As power Shiro/Dwarf is good too. Doesnt rely on boons (that much), so less to corrupt + its losing special buffs to sustain/mobility/condi-management.... to boon support

>

> F2 on herald is good for teamfights, as single fighter F2 on core is WAY better.

 

How good or bad something is, doesn't matter for the trade off. That Herald needs specific core traitlines to be good doesn't matter at all. All that matters in the first step in Anet meaning is, that elites give up core mechanics for elite mechanics.

[Kuma.1503]

Holosmith's intended tradeoff is that you lose access to kits temporarily while inside Photon Forge. You also lose access to your F5 skill in exchange for photon forge. It's not much compared to what other classes give up, but this is partly due to core engi being so weak.

 

Rev is not like other classes. It was made with elite specs in mind, Elites out performing core is by design.

[Lighter.5631]

dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

[Abyssisis.3971]

> @"bravan.3876" said:> > @"Abyssisis.3971" said:

> > All elite classes need a trade off where you actually have to give something up, not just trade skills for skills as in the case of holosmith and firebrand.

>

> Ofc it is enough of a trade off when you give up skills for skills. Important is, that those skills have around the same power lvl. Otherwise you want elites to be a downgrade.

>

 

It’s really not a trade off when you consider how much of a trade off other classes have given up. Mirage gave up a dodge, soulbeast gave up an entire pet, Druid, pets are weaker. Etc. Holosmith losing f5 to gain 5 skills with forge, while putting f1-4 on a 6? Second cooldown? Yeah, no a trade off, but a trade up, which elite specs aren’t supposed to be. Same can be said for firebrand.