Ideas for next balance patch for mesmer

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

@"mortrialus.3062"

 

Touche, my friend. The cylinder hat really sealed it for me.

And yes, I did just admit that even I can be wrong, sometimes. :lol: Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

 

You know the game and particularly mesmer is an awful state when one of the most passionate players for the game, that knows the game inside out, leave.

(I know there are other reasons, but still one of the pushes was the state of the game).

 

[Yasai.3549]

Mesmer needs no buffs or reworks.

They desperately need some reverts.

 

And seeing how Anet never reverts anything, Mesmer is essentially a dead class.

[Yoci.2481]

As a hot fix before they address this more thoroughly they could at least unsplit the skills and traits for Mesmer and use the PvE ones for WvW and PvP. This would at least help Mirage and Core. I think skill splits should always only ever happen as a temporary solution anyway. Classes should not play this differently between game modes. PvP and WvW should define class balance and PvE content should be designed around that existing balance.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Exciton.8942" said:

> Mirage

> Revert to double dodge.

> Trade off changed to phantasm no longer becoming clones after attack

>

> Chrono

> Rework chrono shatter into ground target skill

> F1/F2/F3 will do their effect in a small area after 0.5s delay

> F4 will create rift at target location and revert you back to that location after your CS ended.

 

Well chrono imo also should be the spec with alacrity and quickness and most slow, but when u have perma alacrity on one button and perma quickness on other clasess, anything related with decreasing or increasing CS and atk speed should be oin chrono oonly!

 

Anet should lock certain powers/effects/condis/boons under one spec only, when they start to spread it those classes will loose interes and concept.

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Exciton.8942" said:

> > Mirage

> > Revert to double dodge.

> > Trade off changed to phantasm no longer becoming clones after attack

> >

> > Chrono

> > Rework chrono shatter into ground target skill

> > F1/F2/F3 will do their effect in a small area after 0.5s delay

> > F4 will create rift at target location and revert you back to that location after your CS ended.

>

> Well chrono imo also should be the spec with alacrity and quickness and most slow, but when u have perma alacrity on one button and perma quickness on other clasess, anything related with decreasing or increasing CS and atk speed should be oin chrono oonly!

>

> Anet should lock certain powers/effects/condis/boons under one spec only, when they start to spread it those classes will loose interes and concept.

>

 

Honestly, I don't mind other classes having access to Alacrity and Quickness. Since it prevents Mesmer from (Theoretically) ending up in a state where it is complete garbage and only exists purely to provide Alacrity and Quickness as a token class brought to groups. Meaning that if other classes can provide Alacrity and Quickness, Mesmer can be balanced to be good as an individual class overall, not just a boonbot.

 

The main issue is that Mesmer has its Alacrity and Quickness tied to clunky wells which makes them horrible to use. Meanwhile Firebrand just exists and farts out perma-Quickness and Alacrigade just provides Alacrity to 10 allies nearby when it uses its skill. Which are vastly less awful to use and play with (Both because of not needing to stack on teeny tiny wells, but also not having to listen to the obnoxious countdowns from Chrono wells being spammed constantly)

 

As such, Firebrigade is often preferred over Chrono despite Chrono only using 1 party spot for both boons, because it's just nicer to play with.

 

It'd be far more palatable if Chrono's Quickness/Alacrity came from its F1/F2 shatters (Throw another boon on F3, maybe Protection or Stability to help with the loss of Distortion) - Basically replacing Flow of Time and Seize the Moment - so it wasn't reliant on its wells (Which could be redesigned to something not trash instead) as well as promoting more synergy with things like Illusions traitline for reduced Shatter CD's or traits and effects that increase Clone generation to fuel more Shatters as an alternative to stacking Concentration and Boon Duration.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Exciton.8942" said:

> > > Mirage

> > > Revert to double dodge.

> > > Trade off changed to phantasm no longer becoming clones after attack

> > >

> > > Chrono

> > > Rework chrono shatter into ground target skill

> > > F1/F2/F3 will do their effect in a small area after 0.5s delay

> > > F4 will create rift at target location and revert you back to that location after your CS ended.

> >

> > Well chrono imo also should be the spec with alacrity and quickness and most slow, but when u have perma alacrity on one button and perma quickness on other clasess, anything related with decreasing or increasing CS and atk speed should be oin chrono oonly!

> >

> > Anet should lock certain powers/effects/condis/boons under one spec only, when they start to spread it those classes will loose interes and concept.

> >

>

> Honestly, I don't mind other classes having access to Alacrity and Quickness. Since it prevents Mesmer from (Theoretically) ending up in a state where it is complete garbage and only exists purely to provide Alacrity and Quickness as a token class brought to groups. Meaning that if other classes can provide Alacrity and Quickness, Mesmer can be balanced to be good as an individual class overall, not just a boonbot.

>

> **The main issue is that Mesmer has its Alacrity and Quickness tied to clunky wells which makes them horrible to use. Meanwhile Firebrand just exists and farts out perma-Quickness and Alacrigade just provides Alacrity to 10 allies nearby when it uses its skill. Which are vastly less awful to use and play with (Both because of not needing to stack on teeny tiny wells, but also not having to listen to the obnoxious countdowns from Chrono wells being spammed constantly)**

>

> As such, Firebrigade is often preferred over Chrono despite Chrono only using 1 party spot for both boons, because it's just nicer to play with.

>

> It'd be far more palatable if Chrono's Quickness/Alacrity came from its F1/F2 shatters (Throw another boon on F3, maybe Protection or Stability to help with the loss of Distortion) - Basically replacing Flow of Time and Seize the Moment - so it wasn't reliant on its wells (Which could be redesigned to something not trash instead) as well as promoting more synergy with things like Illusions traitline for reduced Shatter CD's or traits and effects that increase Clone generation to fuel more Shatters as an alternative to stacking Concentration and Boon Duration.

 

Bolded your comment cause IMO its what needs to be removed(fixed), anmd improved towards chrono, renegade F4 is something that should be in chrono for example.

Still the way chrono gains its still requires more effort than most of ther classes that have it granted 100% uptime with one or 2 skills, chrono even at 100% boon duration i think(not 100% shure on this one) cant have the boons for 100% uptime unless stacks from several skills, FB stacked by other hand with one renegade its a freaking low effort quickfiesta.

 

If chrono provided with unique boons it could be both at same time and yet be balanced, a decent support class that if needs to go on individual class it could, also that also means less stacking of the same builds and class and open for more variety of builds, rather than take classes that do most in game that end overshadowing other classes in the game modes cause they can haver perma behaviors while doing many other things.

Also 240 seams a good size just like any other class...duno why one calls them short wells, since 240 covers an entire capture point.

 

 

-Wells need to aply slow just like necro can fear with theirs.

-every chrono well needs to aply 2-3 sec of alacrity and/or 2-3 sec of quickness

-well lof eternety needs to delay condi ticks or make conditions expire faster

-Shield 4 could provide some minor stability as well.

-Well of action would be interesting if could get some clones per pulse while chiling enemy inside and replicas of the player on the dome or neerby the well.

[Svez Poizon XD.5268]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

 

It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

>

> It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

 

Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

F4 on:

Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

 

 

But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

 

**If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

[Delita Silverburg.8632]

Let me start by saying I don't do PvP or WvW with Mesmer anymore because it got obliterated to death. Rip. Instead, I've been maining Chrono in PvE raids for the past year and a half. For me, they have simplified Chrono to a point where skill level doesn't even matter anymore to run it. There is little difference between being good at the class vs being ok at the class. All you can do is maybe push an extra 5k damage over other less skilled players. You can maintain boon up times easily now. Personally, I would like to see them go back to the ways of the old Concentration Sigil where you had to be good at what you were doing to get good results. The skills and traits team has coddled players far too much for my liking.

 

With that said, they did do one thing that makes playing Chrono significantly worse. The rework on wells is abysmal. Having you get no benefit until the final pop of the well often times screws players over on Raids that force you to move a lot. (Sloth, Soulless Horror is the worst culprit) In the SH fight, you can be forced to move almost immediately from where you planned to tank due to a random mechanic, the flame wall, and it ruins your opening rotation completely. I think they should have considered this when they made the well rework, and the old way of getting some benefit per pulse felt far better since you can at least get something if they game forces you to move.

 

TLDR

1. Make Chrono more challenging to keep boons up.

2. Wells back to the way they were before where each pulse gave boons.

3. Mirage is great as is for PvE.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

The best balance is to delete the mesmer and give me my money back to draw a line with this bad game

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

>

> You know the game and particularly mesmer is an awful state when one of the most passionate players for the game, that knows the game inside out, leave.

> (I know there are other reasons, but still one of the pushes was the state of the game).

>

 

That's really not the notion I got from him based on the last mail he sent me. I think it was mostly the "other" reasons.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> >

> > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

>

> Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> F4 on:

> Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

>

>

> But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

>

> **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

 

Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

 

But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

 

It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

[Curunen.8729]

> @"ZeteCommander.4937" said:

> The best balance is to delete the mesmer and give me my money back to draw a line with this bad game

 

Heh, the worst part is that - the money and time sunk in, keeping the feeling of attachment (even if the whole thing is transient and you pay for the moment to moment experience anyway...) and the audio/vfx are still a lot of fun. I don't think I'll ever stop playing, until maybe many years after the final update, but certainly the breaks seem to be getting longer.

 

But then I suppose there have been many hours of enjoyment and at least cheaper than eg cinema or other things like that.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > > Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

> >

> > You know the game and particularly mesmer is an awful state when one of the most passionate players for the game, that knows the game inside out, leave.

> > (I know there are other reasons, but still one of the pushes was the state of the game).

> >

>

> That's really not the notion I got from him based on the last mail he sent me. I think it was mostly the "other" reasons.

 

He sent me a farewell mail too, saying those other reasons. But he was already fed up with this trash balance and said several times he would quit if mesmer wasn't buffed.

Now I only login like once every two weeks but AFAIK he wasn't playing that much.

[Stavros.8249]

The below ideas is for condition chrono.

1.Make master of misdirection 20%cd reduction from 15%, like every other trait in game that affect cd.

2.Malicious sorcery give 20% attack speed. Remove that since quickness overlap it. Then let it give quickness like the change anet did on necro or put it in lower tier.

3.Give some traits for condition damage in chronomancer specialization.

 

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > > > Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

> > >

> > > You know the game and particularly mesmer is an awful state when one of the most passionate players for the game, that knows the game inside out, leave.

> > > (I know there are other reasons, but still one of the pushes was the state of the game).

> > >

> >

> > That's really not the notion I got from him based on the last mail he sent me. I think it was mostly the "other" reasons.

>

> He sent me a farewell mail too, saying those other reasons. But he was already fed up with this trash balance and said several times he would quit if mesmer wasn't buffed.

> Now I only login like once every two weeks but AFAIK he wasn't playing that much.

 

He was on more often than me and I was stuck in lockdown for 2 months :lol:

However he was strictly PvP and I had WvW to rebound after the across the board systemic annihilation of Mesmer.

[MrLoyt.3895]

I would like to get rework for All's Well That Ends Well in Chrono (aka healing wells). I feel this trait is a little useless (like that 1.3k heal is needed when you have designed healer).

They could change to whatever they want.

Examples:

1. Using well skill grant 1s of alacrity to mesmer and his allies (5 targets, 5sec CD)

2. Wells grant unique buffs to targets in their range:

* Well of Recall: your next used skill will have reduced recharge time (ex. 3sec )

* Well of Action: your attacks have 33% chance to inflict slow (1s) (duration 5sec)

* Well of Precognition: reduce incoming damage by 5% (duration 10sec)

* Well of Calamity: extend duration of 3 random conditions on enemy by 3sec

* Well of Eternity: cleansed condition are returned to source

* Gravity Well: Add additional pulse which freeze enemy in time for 3sec (New CC: Freezed in time - cannot use skills, skills are not recharging during duration)

 

I know these ideas are crazy but I just want change to that trait, even stupid "Well skills have bigger radius" or sth would be good

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> > >

> > > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

> >

> > Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> > F4 on:

> > Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> > deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> > Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

> >

> >

> > But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

> >

> > **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

>

> Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

>

> But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

> We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

>

> It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

 

Their gameplay and its effefcts, also isnt fair other class do better what is in theme with chrono, i play renegade for the 100% alacrity upkeep with one button for 10 players arround with just 70%ish of boon duration, even FB does better with quickness xD than chrono.

 

Anything related to recover cd's time, slow cd's, and quickness should be main chrono.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> > > >

> > > > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

> > >

> > > Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> > > F4 on:

> > > Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> > > deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> > > Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

> > >

> > >

> > > But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

> > >

> > > **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

> >

> > Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

> >

> > But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

> > We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

> >

> > It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

>

> Their gameplay and its effefcts, also isnt fair other class do better what is in theme with chrono, i play renegade for the 100% alacrity upkeep with one button for 10 players arround with just 70%ish of boon duration, even FB does better with quickness xD than chrono.

>

> Anything related to recover cd's time, slow cd's, and quickness should be main chrono.

 

Well, part of that reason, is because Chrono does both, while FB and Rev only do 1 each. It makes sense that the classes that focus on only 1 boon has an easier to maintain uptime than the class that does multiple boons.

 

Though, I suspect that another part of this is simply powercreep given that Renegade and Firebrand are PoF E-Specs while Chrono is from HoT so it may be that Ren/FB simply have the benefit of ANet deciding that perma-Quickness/Alacrity isn't so bad and thus implementing it in an easier way for the newest round of E-Specs.

 

That said, I still think Renegade and Firebrand are backwards. They each benefit more from the opposite boon than the one they have...

 

Renegade gets more out of Quickness because the Energy mechanic limits their ability to spam skills so they do more auto attacks than a typical class which works better with Quickness.

 

Meanwhile Firebrand gets more out of Alacrity because their Tomes aren't about spamming auto attacks and get more benefit from Alacrity lowering the cooldowns of their stronger skills to spend their pages on.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> > > > >

> > > > > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

> > > >

> > > > Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> > > > F4 on:

> > > > Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> > > > deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> > > > Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

> > > >

> > > > **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

> > >

> > > Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

> > >

> > > But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

> > > We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

> > >

> > > It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

> >

> > Their gameplay and its effefcts, also isnt fair other class do better what is in theme with chrono, i play renegade for the 100% alacrity upkeep with one button for 10 players arround with just 70%ish of boon duration, even FB does better with quickness xD than chrono.

> >

> > Anything related to recover cd's time, slow cd's, and quickness should be main chrono.

>

> Well, part of that reason, is because Chrono does both, while FB and Rev only do 1 each. It makes sense that the classes that focus on only 1 boon has an easier to maintain uptime than the class that does multiple boons.

>

> Though, I suspect that another part of this is simply powercreep given that Renegade and Firebrand are PoF E-Specs while Chrono is from HoT so it may be that Ren/FB simply have the benefit of ANet deciding that perma-Quickness/Alacrity isn't so bad and thus implementing it in an easier way for the newest round of E-Specs.

>

> That said, I still think Renegade and Firebrand are backwards. They each benefit more from the opposite boon than the one they have...

>

> Renegade gets more out of Quickness because the Energy mechanic limits their ability to spam skills so they do more auto attacks than a typical class which works better with Quickness.

>

> Meanwhile Firebrand gets more out of Alacrity because their Tomes aren't about spamming auto attacks and get more benefit from Alacrity lowering the cooldowns of their stronger skills to spend their pages on.

 

Very good poinst u got there :\, even mantras use better the alacrity for a fast recover.

Maybe the issue here is the intensity of the boon durations, and how easy is to stack that on FB's and renegades wich make chronos not even neede for that.

 

Imo they still have to much easier access to those boons compared with chrono wich should be the master of them, Chrono has stronger alacrity and stronger quickness but if i recall is a very short time for itself. (correct me if im wrong)

[Senqu.8054]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> > > > >

> > > > > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

> > > >

> > > > Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> > > > F4 on:

> > > > Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> > > > deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> > > > Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

> > > >

> > > > **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

> > >

> > > Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

> > >

> > > But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

> > > We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

> > >

> > > It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

> >

> > Their gameplay and its effefcts, also isnt fair other class do better what is in theme with chrono, i play renegade for the 100% alacrity upkeep with one button for 10 players arround with just 70%ish of boon duration, even FB does better with quickness xD than chrono.

> >

> > Anything related to recover cd's time, slow cd's, and quickness should be main chrono.

>

> Well, part of that reason, is because Chrono does both, while FB and Rev only do 1 each. It makes sense that the classes that focus on only 1 boon has an easier to maintain uptime than the class that does multiple boons.

>

> Though, I suspect that another part of this is simply powercreep given that Renegade and Firebrand are PoF E-Specs while Chrono is from HoT so it may be that Ren/FB simply have the benefit of ANet deciding that perma-Quickness/Alacrity isn't so bad and thus implementing it in an easier way for the newest round of E-Specs.

>

> That said, I still think Renegade and Firebrand are backwards. They each benefit more from the opposite boon than the one they have...

>

> Renegade gets more out of Quickness because the Energy mechanic limits their ability to spam skills so they do more auto attacks than a typical class which works better with Quickness.

>

> Meanwhile Firebrand gets more out of Alacrity because their Tomes aren't about spamming auto attacks and get more benefit from Alacrity lowering the cooldowns of their stronger skills to spend their pages on.

 

Yeah and what about might? Fury? Stability? Resistance? Aegis? (Regeneration?) Do we ignore them now while we compare chrono, fb and renegade? Does the acces to alacrity and quickness together eliminate the „permission“ to be able to do anything else?

[Taril.8619]

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> > > > > F4 on:

> > > > > Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> > > > > deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> > > > > Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

> > > > >

> > > > > **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

> > > >

> > > > Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

> > > >

> > > > But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

> > > > We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

> > > >

> > > > It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

> > >

> > > Their gameplay and its effefcts, also isnt fair other class do better what is in theme with chrono, i play renegade for the 100% alacrity upkeep with one button for 10 players arround with just 70%ish of boon duration, even FB does better with quickness xD than chrono.

> > >

> > > Anything related to recover cd's time, slow cd's, and quickness should be main chrono.

> >

> > Well, part of that reason, is because Chrono does both, while FB and Rev only do 1 each. It makes sense that the classes that focus on only 1 boon has an easier to maintain uptime than the class that does multiple boons.

> >

> > Though, I suspect that another part of this is simply powercreep given that Renegade and Firebrand are PoF E-Specs while Chrono is from HoT so it may be that Ren/FB simply have the benefit of ANet deciding that perma-Quickness/Alacrity isn't so bad and thus implementing it in an easier way for the newest round of E-Specs.

> >

> > That said, I still think Renegade and Firebrand are backwards. They each benefit more from the opposite boon than the one they have...

> >

> > Renegade gets more out of Quickness because the Energy mechanic limits their ability to spam skills so they do more auto attacks than a typical class which works better with Quickness.

> >

> > Meanwhile Firebrand gets more out of Alacrity because their Tomes aren't about spamming auto attacks and get more benefit from Alacrity lowering the cooldowns of their stronger skills to spend their pages on.

>

> Yeah and what about might? Fury? Stability? Resistance? Aegis? (Regeneration?) Do we ignore them now while we compare chrono, fb and renegade? Does the acces to alacrity and quickness together eliminate the „permission“ to be able to do anything else?

 

Might and Fury are a non-factor for balance due to how plentiful they are from a number of sources meaning that their uptime isn't dependent on a specific boonbot class (If it was, then you'd see Heralds in PvE...)

 

Regeneration is a non-factor due to it not stacking, so any Regeneration effects that aren't from the Healer are literally worthless as they'll just be overwritten by the Healer's Regeneration effect.

 

Resistance? Rev only provides Resistance for themselves. Which is thus not applicable for balance.

 

Firebrand applying Stab/Resistance? Comes at the cost of their damage though I guess it is more accessible than a Chrono using Well of Precognition or Mantra of Concentration (Since Signet of Inspiration is often used to reduce the amount of Concentration required for 100% uptime of Alacrity/Quickness)

 

Aegis? Isn't that big of a deal, most relevant damage will go through it.

 

Chrono **could** be given more access to other things (Well, it already can get Aegis and Stab from Well of Precog it's just not meta to use it)

 

But in the comparison between the 3 Boonbot builds, it's really only Quickness and Alacrity that is relevant (Ideal Alacrigade rotations don't use Heroic Command or Darkrazor's Daring and ideal Quickbrand rotations don't use Tome of Courage just like ideal Chrono rotations don't include Well of Precog/Mantra of Conc)

[Senqu.8054]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > > > > Make alacrity and quickness boon provided only from chrono... remove it from renegade and firebrands, give something to those classes that fit more in their theme.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It would be awesome if they removed alacrity from renegade but added retaliation instead or something that pulses a lot. Alacrity is not fitting it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Renegade could have something that would make it better usage with other legends :\, imagine f4 from renegade depending from wich legend is used.

> > > > > > F4 on:

> > > > > > Jalis - buff for reduce direct damage. and minor boon duration of retaliation.

> > > > > > deamon- reduce condi damage, with 1-2 sec of resistance

> > > > > > Assassin- vampiric damage, with vampiric on vigor?!? as well?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But yeah, if people wanted alacrity or/and quickness they should have a chrono it could also be seted for that and damage at the same time, could be played more like a time wizard rather than a gimmick >_> this would make its wells more enjoiable to play rather than confuse the players that ty to use them?.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **If Anet focus on classes more on their themes, classes will have better roles and wont confict with each other.**

> > > > >

> > > > > Ideally, yeah, if every elite spec had something unique for them based on their theme, that would be great.

> > > > >

> > > > > But how exactly do you imagine this to work, especially since you are already giving multiple things to chrono (alacrity, quickness, **and** slow?).

> > > > > We have 18 different elite specs already and will most likely get 9 more with the next expansion. What should every single one of them have that is unique to them and resonates with their theme?

> > > > >

> > > > > It wouldn't really be fair that chrono is the only one with unique buffs/effects, right?

> > > >

> > > > Their gameplay and its effefcts, also isnt fair other class do better what is in theme with chrono, i play renegade for the 100% alacrity upkeep with one button for 10 players arround with just 70%ish of boon duration, even FB does better with quickness xD than chrono.

> > > >

> > > > Anything related to recover cd's time, slow cd's, and quickness should be main chrono.

> > >

> > > Well, part of that reason, is because Chrono does both, while FB and Rev only do 1 each. It makes sense that the classes that focus on only 1 boon has an easier to maintain uptime than the class that does multiple boons.

> > >

> > > Though, I suspect that another part of this is simply powercreep given that Renegade and Firebrand are PoF E-Specs while Chrono is from HoT so it may be that Ren/FB simply have the benefit of ANet deciding that perma-Quickness/Alacrity isn't so bad and thus implementing it in an easier way for the newest round of E-Specs.

> > >

> > > That said, I still think Renegade and Firebrand are backwards. They each benefit more from the opposite boon than the one they have...

> > >

> > > Renegade gets more out of Quickness because the Energy mechanic limits their ability to spam skills so they do more auto attacks than a typical class which works better with Quickness.

> > >

> > > Meanwhile Firebrand gets more out of Alacrity because their Tomes aren't about spamming auto attacks and get more benefit from Alacrity lowering the cooldowns of their stronger skills to spend their pages on.

> >

> > Yeah and what about might? Fury? Stability? Resistance? Aegis? (Regeneration?) Do we ignore them now while we compare chrono, fb and renegade? Does the acces to alacrity and quickness together eliminate the „permission“ to be able to do anything else?

>

> Might and Fury are a non-factor for balance due to how plentiful they are from a number of sources meaning that their uptime isn't dependent on a specific boonbot class (If it was, then you'd see Heralds in PvE...)

>

> Regeneration is a non-factor due to it not stacking, so any Regeneration effects that aren't from the Healer are literally worthless as they'll just be overwritten by the Healer's Regeneration effect.

>

> Resistance? Rev only provides Resistance for themselves. Which is thus not applicable for balance.

>

> Firebrand applying Stab/Resistance? Comes at the cost of their damage though I guess it is more accessible than a Chrono using Well of Precognition or Mantra of Concentration (Since Signet of Inspiration is often used to reduce the amount of Concentration required for 100% uptime of Alacrity/Quickness)

>

> Aegis? Isn't that big of a deal, most relevant damage will go through it.

>

> Chrono **could** be given more access to other things (Well, it already can get Aegis and Stab from Well of Precog it's just not meta to use it)

>

> But in the comparison between the 3 Boonbot builds, it's really only Quickness and Alacrity that is relevant (Ideal Alacrigade rotations don't use Heroic Command or Darkrazor's Daring and ideal Quickbrand rotations don't use Tome of Courage just like ideal Chrono rotations don't include Well of Precog/Mantra of Conc)

 

You can’t leave half the boons out of consideration if you want to compare the accessibility of them. As if the whole game would consist off only alacrity- and quickness-boon support. If you say that fb has better access to quickness because chrono also has alacrity you have to apply the logic also to the other ones.

 

What about conditions? Should we now compare the accessibility of burn, mesmer vs guard, and come to the conclusion that guard is the most op class in history of gw?

 

And about the Well of Precognition: To say it’s just not meta is by far exaggerated. It would imply that it is still viable to a degree. But no, it is so bad that it is not even playable. Wells are not worth to take any time beside raids. Mesmer in generell has many different ways to gain all kind of things but nothing is really worth it.

 

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> You can’t leave half the boons out of consideration if you want to compare the accessibility of them.

 

You can. Because 80% of boons are not the reason why certain builds are run.

 

Alacrigade is only run because of Alacrity. Not because it can grant Stability or Might or whatever else it doesn't provide because it's spending all of its energy on Alacrity + Damage.

 

Quickbrand is only run because of Quickness. Not because it can grant Stability or Aegis or Resistance. It's focus is on Quickness and Damage.

 

Since, these tools are also available to other builds. Such as Healbrand and Healigade. Heck, even Condi Ren/Condi Brand both can provide these things too.

 

Boon Chrono is only run and has only been run because of Quickness and Alacrity. Before PoF, it was the ONLY class that could not only buff other people with these things, but also achieve 100% uptime. With PoF, Firebrand and Renegade also provide builds where they can maintain 100% uptime of one of these boons.

 

> As if the whole game would consist off only alacrity- and quickness-boon support.

 

I mean, that's literally the case. Support is either Healing or it's providing Alacrity and Quickness. Other boons are non-factors. Hence why Herald is completely unplayed in PvE, despite bringing very good (100%) uptimes on Might, Fury, Swiftness, Regeneration and Protection, because these boons don't matter due to how available they are.

 

In PvP/WvW, other boons become more notable, but then Chrono is dismissed anyway because of their reliance on Wells irregardless of how many boons they provide. They could give Might + Fury + Swiftness + Aegis + Resilience + Stability + Protection + Quickness + Regen and they'd still be unviable as a support in these game modes because Wells and specifically, Chrono's wells, are just utter garbage there.

 

> If you say that fb has better access to quickness because chrono also has alacrity you have to apply the logic also to the other ones.

 

Not when the only relevant comparison is the 2 boons that actually make these builds played. Which is Quickness/Alacrity. If not providing these boons these builds are not played, instead, opting for a pure damage build instead (Condi Ren, Condi Brand, Power Chrono).

 

Or should we start randomly comparing each classes ability to Boonrip? Oh now Firebrand sucks while Chrono dominates over Rene.

 

Maybe we should look at the ability to use Portals? Oh, now Chrono is super good because Guardian and Rev don't have Portal while Chrono does!

 

When making comparisons, you have to compare what is actually relevant, not everything you can possibly find that differs.

 

In the case of these 3 support builds, it's all about the 2 boons that they provide that are not readily available to a plethora of classes and builds in general, Alacrity and Quickness.

 

Also note, I said **"Part of the reason"** is Chrono getting access to both while FB/Rene only get one. With another part being **powercreep**. Meaning that FB/Rene's access to other boons can be attributed to the powercreep and thus not necessarily counted against Chrono's lack of other boons.

 

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> What about conditions? Should we now compare the accessibility of burn, mesmer vs guard, and come to the conclusion that guard is the most op class in history of gw?

 

I mean, if we're talking about how a build is picked due to its capacity to provide burn, then yes I guess?

 

> And about the Well of Precognition: To say it’s just not meta is by far exaggerated. It would imply that it is still viable to a degree.

 

Just want to point out, that your choice of words here have conflicting meanings. Saying "To say it's just not meta is by far exaggerated" is impling that it is infact meta. I think you meant to put "Is an understatement"

 

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> Wells are not worth to take any time beside raids.

 

Which is generally where people actually give a damn about perma-Alacrity/Quickness support builds.

 

OW PvE doesn't care. Fractals don't care (Maybe in higher tier fractals where people aren't just zerging through). PvP doesn't care. WvW doesn't care.

 

It's all about Raids where this level of min/maxing is notably cared about.