"Nerf Holosmith!"

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > > sword autos get worse heat scaling then holo autos.

> > >

> > > Oh right, laser edge doesnt apply while cooling down if youre not using blasting module. That changes things a little, but sword ultimately still comes out on top. Laser Edge gives 0.15% extra damage per point of heat, while sword just gets a set value after a threshold. This means certain heat ranges favour one over the other. 0-49, Holo comes out on top. Youre almost never at this heat. 50-67 heat, sword comes out on top. Youre in this range more often, but its still pretty rare.67-99, holo comes out on top. Youre at this heat range a fair bit. 100-133. Sword comes out on top. this is the heat range you spend most of your time in. And sword beats holo here. Finally, 134-150, photon forge wins. Youre never in this heat range. Youd overheat.

> > >

> > > So yeah, most of the time sword wins.

> > >

> > > > sword autos are also slower then holo autos, and have MUCH lower range.

> > >

> > > They appear to be *very* slightly slower. I got 2.6 seconds for sword, and 2.5 for holo. So, Holo chain takes 96% of it. Thats about as much of swords damage that holo does.

> > >

> > > > I just tested sword autos vs holo autos, holo auto chain dealt about 4% more dmg, was faster, had larger aoe and it scales better with heat.

> > >

> > > Holo chain does less damage. We know the coefficients. Its slightly faster, but that events out with damage. Larger AoE is true, but youre fighting 1 on 1, so that doesnt matter much. And it scales *generally* worse with heat, while being better at certain breakpoints.

> >

> > actually go and test it, even with 0 heat, holo attacks not only faster but deals more damage. Propably holo forge has more weapon damage or some other kitten that I dont care about, bottom line is, holo autos are better in every way then sword

>

> I did. The problem you have is that at 0 heat, you get Laser Edge in the calculation, which makes it messy. Try using both at around 120 heat. You will find sword autos hit harder as a whole. Even as you get close to the breakpoint.

 

thats why you get calculation wrong, when you get 120 heat you get pulsing might that will increase sword damage.

[Shao.7236]

@"UNOwen.7132"

It didn't make Revenant any less fun to increase it's energy costs, 2 seconds extra for 2 skills won't kill it. I prefer my second suggestion over the 10 seconds cooldown.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > > > sword autos get worse heat scaling then holo autos.

> > > >

> > > > Oh right, laser edge doesnt apply while cooling down if youre not using blasting module. That changes things a little, but sword ultimately still comes out on top. Laser Edge gives 0.15% extra damage per point of heat, while sword just gets a set value after a threshold. This means certain heat ranges favour one over the other. 0-49, Holo comes out on top. Youre almost never at this heat. 50-67 heat, sword comes out on top. Youre in this range more often, but its still pretty rare.67-99, holo comes out on top. Youre at this heat range a fair bit. 100-133. Sword comes out on top. this is the heat range you spend most of your time in. And sword beats holo here. Finally, 134-150, photon forge wins. Youre never in this heat range. Youd overheat.

> > > >

> > > > So yeah, most of the time sword wins.

> > > >

> > > > > sword autos are also slower then holo autos, and have MUCH lower range.

> > > >

> > > > They appear to be *very* slightly slower. I got 2.6 seconds for sword, and 2.5 for holo. So, Holo chain takes 96% of it. Thats about as much of swords damage that holo does.

> > > >

> > > > > I just tested sword autos vs holo autos, holo auto chain dealt about 4% more dmg, was faster, had larger aoe and it scales better with heat.

> > > >

> > > > Holo chain does less damage. We know the coefficients. Its slightly faster, but that events out with damage. Larger AoE is true, but youre fighting 1 on 1, so that doesnt matter much. And it scales *generally* worse with heat, while being better at certain breakpoints.

> > >

> > > actually go and test it, even with 0 heat, holo attacks not only faster but deals more damage. Propably holo forge has more weapon damage or some other kitten that I dont care about, bottom line is, holo autos are better in every way then sword

> >

> > I did. The problem you have is that at 0 heat, you get Laser Edge in the calculation, which makes it messy. Try using both at around 120 heat. You will find sword autos hit harder as a whole. Even as you get close to the breakpoint.

>

> thats why you get calculation wrong, when you get 120 heat you get pulsing might that will increase sword damage.

 

It increases the damage of both. Equally. You do know that the might also applies to holo attack, right? No, that wasnt it. Sword just has higher damage.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132"

> It didn't make Revenant any less fun to increase it's energy costs, 2 seconds extra for 2 skills won't kill it. I prefer my second suggestion over the 10 seconds cooldown.

 

I havent exactly spoken out in favour of the mega patch either, now have I? CD increase, energy cost increase, initiative cost increase, all of those were *bad* changes. Lets stop the bad changes, yes? Besides, it just means you spend more time in photon forge autoattacking. Its not exactly interesting, is it? If you want to touch photon forge, fix the useless and near useless skills first. Then decide if you want it to be more like Reaper Shroud, or more like an extra kit Holo gets.

[Tanbin.2436]

now scrapper has perma superspeed

 

balance :)

[Shao.7236]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > It didn't make Revenant any less fun to increase it's energy costs, 2 seconds extra for 2 skills won't kill it. I prefer my second suggestion over the 10 seconds cooldown.

>

> I havent exactly spoken out in favour of the mega patch either, now have I? CD increase, energy cost increase, initiative cost increase, all of those were *bad* changes. Lets stop the bad changes, yes? Besides, it just means you spend more time in photon forge autoattacking. Its not exactly interesting, is it? If you want to touch photon forge, fix the useless and near useless skills first. Then decide if you want it to be more like Reaper Shroud, or more like an extra kit Holo gets.

 

I like the mega patch, I'm glad they've done it. There's more difficulty added to the game that flies above most people head.

 

People did spend their time autoattacking when Photon Forge was busted was it? So why would that be a problem now? They're not forced to stay in it, it's still 6 seconds, it's the player choice to commit it's time for availability of skills, not just press them because everything is /neatly/ fitting in, that's not the definition of fun, just a busted design that needs fixing. There's almost no stalling, even Revenant has more stalling in between it's skills than Holosmith does.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > It didn't make Revenant any less fun to increase it's energy costs, 2 seconds extra for 2 skills won't kill it. I prefer my second suggestion over the 10 seconds cooldown.

> >

> > I havent exactly spoken out in favour of the mega patch either, now have I? CD increase, energy cost increase, initiative cost increase, all of those were *bad* changes. Lets stop the bad changes, yes? Besides, it just means you spend more time in photon forge autoattacking. Its not exactly interesting, is it? If you want to touch photon forge, fix the useless and near useless skills first. Then decide if you want it to be more like Reaper Shroud, or more like an extra kit Holo gets.

>

> I like the mega patch, I'm glad they've done it. There's more difficulty added to the game that flies above most people head.

>

 

Thats your mistake then, not mine. It removed pretty much all difficulty. We went from a high-skill exciting meta to a boring no-skill meta where the most important tool sidenoders have is knockbacks. Because its the only way to contest the point since no one ever dies.

 

> People did spend their time autoattacking when Photon Forge was busted was it? So why would that be a problem now? They're not forced to stay in it, it's still 6 seconds, it's the player choice to commit it's time for availability of skills, not just press them because everything is /neatly/ fitting in, that's not the definition of fun, just a busted design that needs fixing. There's almost no stalling, even Revenant has more stalling in between it's skills than Holosmith does.

 

When photon forge was busted, skill 4 and 5 were also good. There was more to do. Now they arent, and 4 in particular is useless. And in those 6 seconds they will spend more time just autoattacking. That was my point. Its not interesting, and it begs the question of what the point of the holoforge is anyway. At this point you might as well replace F5 with Holo Leap.

[Shao.7236]

@"UNOwen.7132" So you say one shotting and killing everything instantly with only i-frames mattering be better? Don't think so, elaborating on killing someone is what makes the game interesting, not one ticking people.

 

Your definition of useless has such a high standard, I think you need to re-adjust your expectations. You're used to what the game was (Unhealthy ezpz strats that ends everything in 2 secs), not what it is now. (Healthy must actually outplay someone and not just walk up to them.) Considering for example Stealth is still an issue but not that one sided anymore.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" So you say one shotting and killing everything instantly with only i-frames mattering be better? Don't think so, elaborating on killing someone is what makes the game interesting, not one ticking people.

>

 

Because, to put it simple, that didnt happen. Unless you got outnumbered, but then that still happens now. What mattered was timing your skills and matching their offense with your defense. Mistakes were punishable, but if you didnt make mistakes, you didnt die. The average fight between good players lasted about 30 seconds - a minute. A *far* cry from your "2 seconds".

 

> Your definition of useless has such a high standard, I think you need to re-adjust your expectations. You're used to what the game was (Unhealthy ezpz strats that ends everything in 2 secs), not what it is now. (Healthy must actually outplay someone and not just walk up to them.) Considering for example Stealth is still an issue but not that one sided anymore.

 

4 is *literally* useless. It does almost no damage for how long the channel is and how high the heatcost. And no. Thats not at *all* what the game was. What it was is "you must actually outplay someone to kill, and if you mess up you die". What it is *now*, well thats "you dont ever kill someone. You just wait to have one of your teammates outnumber them so you can kill them, otherwise you use knockbacks to contest the point. The rest literally doesnt matter. You cant die, no matter how much you fuck up". In simpler terms, the current state is *extremely* unhealthy.

[Shao.7236]

@"UNOwen.7132"

Beg to differ, I've never had such a high kill count compared Feb pre-patch and my mistakes are easily punishable that I can tell people they've done well.

 

The statistics you rely on are irrelevant, doesn't matter how good the player was. The game was factually power crept and they've toned it down, there is so many builds now on Metabattle that it goes to show how stale the game was before when EVEN the most toxic aspects of the game evolve. You speak like knockbacks are unavoidable and everyone is unkillable, that is SO false.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132"

> Beg to differ, I've never had such a high kill count compared Feb pre-patch and my mistakes are easily punishable that I can tell people they've done well.

>

 

Kill count in games is lower, that is objectively a fact. Not as much as you would think at first, but then you realise that people just rotate even more because its literally the only way to kill anyone. Mistakes are not punishable at all. I dont remember who it was, but they showed a clip of a Rev fighting a warrior. The Rev made mistake after mistake after mistake to the point that it became painful to watch. The Warrior could not punish *any* of it. Hell, mistakes are so impossible to punish that 1v1s have become pointless, and if knockbacks dont matter and no one comes to +1, people decided to synchronise their dancing instead of fighting. In the MOTA, the biggest tournament we had in a while. Thats a bad sign.

 

> The statistics you rely on are irrelevant, doesn't matter how good the player was. The game was factually power crept and they've toned it down, there is so many builds now on Metabattle that it goes to show how stale the game was before when EVEN the most toxic aspects of the game evolve. You speak like knockbacks are unavoidable and everyone is unkillable, that is SO false.

 

And now the game is factually powerdipped. Far more than it was powercrept. Damage right now is 20-30% lower than even pre-HoT. And to make matters worse, Powerdip is a *lot* worse than powercreep by every metric. The game has gotte nworse. There are fewer builds in metabattles meta category now, and fewer builds viable than ever before. Pre-patch, *every* class was viable with multiple builds. And the builds changed rapidly, as did teamcomps. Post-patch, 2 classes straight up arent viable, outside of Revenant, Necro and Ranger *no* class has more than 1 build, and the builds and teamcomps havent changed at all since the patch. The game wasnt stale at all before. Its incredibly stale *now*.

 

No, knockbacks are avoidable. Thats literally the only skillful part of sidenoding left. I just said, theyre the only things that matter. And they are. And yes, everyone is unkillable in a 1v1. Which is to say, when sidenoding. Thats the problem. The game is far less skilled than it ever has been before.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of crap.

 

If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

>

> If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

 

If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> >

> > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

>

> If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

 

PF > RS imo

[Vancho.8750]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> >

> > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

>

> If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling.

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > >

> > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> >

> > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

>

> PF > RS imo

 

Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > >

> > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > >

> > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> >

> > PF > RS imo

>

> Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

 

I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > >

> > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> >

> > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling.

>

 

Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive.

 

Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field.

 

Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > > >

> > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > >

> > > PF > RS imo

> >

> > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

>

> I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo.

 

It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit).

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > > > >

> > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > > >

> > > > PF > RS imo

> > >

> > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

> >

> > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo.

>

> It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit).

 

Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > > > >

> > > > > PF > RS imo

> > > >

> > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

> > >

> > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo.

> >

> > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit).

>

> Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement.

 

Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > >

> > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > >

> > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling.

> >

>

> Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive.

>

> Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field.

>

> Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage.

Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up.

Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > PF > RS imo

> > > > >

> > > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo.

> > >

> > > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit).

> >

> > Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement.

>

> Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely.

 

Photon forge autos do big damage.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > > >

> > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling.

> > >

> >

> > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive.

> >

> > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field.

> >

> > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage.

> Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up.

 

Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add.

 

The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating.

 

But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo.

 

> Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results.

 

Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > PF > RS imo

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo.

> > > >

> > > > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit).

> > >

> > > Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement.

> >

> > Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely.

>

> Photon forge autos do big damage.

 

*Less* than sword autos on the most common heat thresholds. Autoing in forge is a DPS loss compared to outside of forge. But you dont have much better things to do.