Racial skills as masteries

[Eekasqueak.7850]

With the mastery system so under utilized and with how weak racial skills are I got thinking. In eye of the North you could earn the racial skills, what if we could do the same and there was mastery tracks to buff the racial skills to be more useful at the same time?

[Taril.8619]

It'd end up facing the issues that current Racial Skills face.

 

Which is they're intentionally bad so that people can play what race they like rather than what race is objectively the best for their class/game mode.

 

It's easy enough to buff the Racial Skills into being relevant, but the thing is that they're not supposed to be relevant.

 

Unless you make every Race have the same skills, just with a different graphical effect, which would be a lot of work for what would essentially be a generic mastery.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> It'd end up facing the issues that current Racial Skills face.

>

> Which is they're intentionally bad so that people can play what race they like rather than what race is objectively the best for their class/game mode.

>

> It's easy enough to buff the Racial Skills into being relevant, but the thing is that they're not supposed to be relevant.

>

> Unless you make every Race have the same skills, just with a different graphical effect, which would be a lot of work for what would essentially be a generic mastery.

 

Oh I'm suggesting that every race be able to earn another race's skills just like human PCs could in eye of the north.

[Randulf.7614]

I'm not sure a Sylvari or an Asura moprhing into a giant killer bear is a good....

 

What am I saying...? Go for it!

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I feel like it'd offer more build variety and arguably none of the skills are that unique to the races, if humans could learn to do most of this stuff in GW1 I don't see why other races can't too.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

this topic comes up every now and then. I even had my own suggestions to throw in a few years back. I like the idea, I really do, but I expect that the developers are going to put their development time in future expansions, living world and Gem store and not looking back to core masteries no matter how interesting we might think they could be. Sorry.

[GummyBearSummoner.7941]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> I'm not sure a Sylvari or an Asura moprhing into a giant killer bear is a good....

>

> What am I saying...? Go for it!

 

Sylvari can turn into a moss tree or plant monster while an asura can become a golem ? Idk it could probably work . Guild wars 1 we had norn racial skills. It could prob work for guild wars 2 if done right.

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"GummyBearSummoner.7941" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > I'm not sure a Sylvari or an Asura moprhing into a giant killer bear is a good....

> >

> > What am I saying...? Go for it!

>

> Sylvari can turn into a moss tree or plant monster while an asura can become a golem ? Idk it could probably work . Guild wars 1 we had norn racial skills. It could prob work for guild wars 2 if done right.

>

 

They don't even necessarily have to change the effects imo, they could just have other races getting a blessing from the respective spirit to be able to morph as an example. Heck you could have Norn learn to pilot a golem to use the Asura golem suit summon, any race can already pilot golems in WvW after all.

 

Edit: Also there's a story instance in core where every race gets to pilot a pact golem suit now that I think of it.

[Teratus.2859]

Wouldn't be lore friendly for a Human to be able to transform into a bear.. nor a Sylvari to have a Charr Warband XD

 

Honestly though i've made many posts about Racial skills needing a rework.

My personal preference would be to have them reworked into PvE only F-6, 7, 8 & 9 skills with the 9th skill being defined by your racial choice in the character creation.

Norn: Animal Form.

Asura: College.

Charr: Legion.

Human; Divine.

Sylvari: Cycle.

 

So 3 shared racial skills and 1 defined by choice.

There's no way to do this without reworking the skills, some would have to be replaced entirely and some new ones added and some races would have more choices than others.. Asura and Charr only have 3 Colleges/Legions giving them only 3 skills to choose from where as Humans have 6 Divines giving them 6 skills.. Sylvari and Norn also get 4 since they have 4 cycles and 4 main spirits of the wild.

 

They'd still be weak skills though, balanced as such to avoid contributing too much into any class builds.

But now they wouldn't require sacrificing a utility to use them so everyone can enjoy a little feeling of racial diversity without having to screw their build over.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Wouldn't be lore friendly for a Human to be able to transform into a bear.. nor a Sylvari to have a Charr Warband XD

>

> Honestly though i've made many posts about Racial skills needing a rework.

> My personal preference would be to have them reworked into PvE only F-6, 7, 8 & 9 skills with the 9th skill being defined by your racial choice in the character creation.

> Norn: Animal Form.

> Asura: College.

> Charr: Legion.

> Human; Divine.

> Sylvari: Cycle.

>

> So 3 shared racial skills and 1 defined by choice.

> There's no way to do this without reworking the skills, some would have to be replaced entirely and some new ones added and some races would have more choices than others.. Asura and Charr only have 3 Colleges/Legions giving them only 3 skills to choose from where as Humans have 6 Divines giving them 6 skills.. Sylvari and Norn also get 4 since they have 4 cycles and 4 main spirits of the wild.

>

> They'd still be weak skills though, balanced as such to avoid contributing too much into any class builds.

> But now they wouldn't require sacrificing a utility to use them so everyone can enjoy a little feeling of racial diversity without having to screw their build over.

 

Humans could turn into bears in the first game though! It was part of the Norn skills you could get. Just like how Asura had a similar line of skills. The shapeshifting isn't a racial thing it's a blessing from a spirit, I suppose warband support would have to be renamed to be more generic but other than that I could see it working.

[firedragon.8953]

I think they should just make all the racial skills the same with different transformation animations based on racial lore. Just have each racial skill/transformation provide a different kind of "buff" to the character's base stats. For example the norn bear form increases base physical attributes, and that percentage increase would be the same as say the human Hounds of Balthazar. Have a a physical power transformation (bear, etc.) that those who choose heavy armor classes are more likely to use, a stealthy, speed and condition damage that boosts a percent of those base stats (snow leopard), and a magic/support ranged transformation that boosts magical abilities and provides some support boons (raven), etc. etc. All these transformations are available to all classes but some will "synergize" better with certain classes/builds. This is exactly the same as how the races are anyway with the only choice being cosmetic and lore relevant. I don't even think it should be a mastery, I think it should just be a core game mechanic.

 

If everyone wants to be a bear, then they should just play a norn and stop flooding the world with tiny humans. On that note, this may lessen the "human meta mentality" with people not so interested in playing the other races, which is why I think making all racial skills available for all races is a bad idea anyway.

 

Edit: words

[Taril.8619]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > Wouldn't be lore friendly for a Human to be able to transform into a bear.. nor a Sylvari to have a Charr Warband XD

> >

> > Honestly though i've made many posts about Racial skills needing a rework.

> > My personal preference would be to have them reworked into PvE only F-6, 7, 8 & 9 skills with the 9th skill being defined by your racial choice in the character creation.

> > Norn: Animal Form.

> > Asura: College.

> > Charr: Legion.

> > Human; Divine.

> > Sylvari: Cycle.

> >

> > So 3 shared racial skills and 1 defined by choice.

> > There's no way to do this without reworking the skills, some would have to be replaced entirely and some new ones added and some races would have more choices than others.. Asura and Charr only have 3 Colleges/Legions giving them only 3 skills to choose from where as Humans have 6 Divines giving them 6 skills.. Sylvari and Norn also get 4 since they have 4 cycles and 4 main spirits of the wild.

> >

> > They'd still be weak skills though, balanced as such to avoid contributing too much into any class builds.

> > But now they wouldn't require sacrificing a utility to use them so everyone can enjoy a little feeling of racial diversity without having to screw their build over.

>

> Humans could turn into bears in the first game though! It was part of the Norn skills you could get. Just like how Asura had a similar line of skills. The shapeshifting isn't a racial thing it's a blessing from a spirit, I suppose warband support would have to be renamed to be more generic but other than that I could see it working.

 

Lorewise, it makes no sense for;

 

- Races other than charr to have Warbands (With exception of norn due to the personal story option where you end up being an honourary Warband member...)

- Races other than human to receive gifts from the human gods.

- Races other than asura to have access to personal golems (While, yes, all races can pilot a golem mech suit, not all races will have ready access to one, unlike the asura who build their own as part of their culture and schooling)

- Races other than sylvari to be able to produce plantlife and mordrem minions (Fern Hounds) at will and summon druid spirits or growing roots into the ground...

- Arguably, races other than norn having access to transformations (Yes, it was a thing for humans in GW1 and there are some hearts in GW2 where a Havroun can allow someone to become an animal but it's often mentioned in game that its a uniquely norn thing to be able to transform, especially given that their lives revolve heavily around praying and paying respects to the spirits and even going into the mists to help defend them) - Especially for charr whom are atheistic to the fullest as well as asura who'd sooner run experiments on the spirits than respect them (There may also be something to be said about sylvari potentially being immune to transformation by the nature of being dragon minions, just like how they can't be turned by other dragons - I.e. They can't become Risen/Destroyers/Frostborn/Branded)

 

And then, even if we ignore all this and somehow write in the ability for all these things to be feasible across all races...

 

All it surmounts to, is a generic mastery line with fancy race themed effects. Since if it's not specifically designed around a race and locked to them, it's not really a "Racial" mastery.

 

Not to mention the adverse effects it could have on balancing too, such as trying to balance PvP/WvW around everyone having access to Snow Leopard form and thus stealth (Y'all wanna deal with Reapers/Rev's popping out of stealth and murdering your face?)

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > Wouldn't be lore friendly for a Human to be able to transform into a bear.. nor a Sylvari to have a Charr Warband XD

> > >

> > > Honestly though i've made many posts about Racial skills needing a rework.

> > > My personal preference would be to have them reworked into PvE only F-6, 7, 8 & 9 skills with the 9th skill being defined by your racial choice in the character creation.

> > > Norn: Animal Form.

> > > Asura: College.

> > > Charr: Legion.

> > > Human; Divine.

> > > Sylvari: Cycle.

> > >

> > > So 3 shared racial skills and 1 defined by choice.

> > > There's no way to do this without reworking the skills, some would have to be replaced entirely and some new ones added and some races would have more choices than others.. Asura and Charr only have 3 Colleges/Legions giving them only 3 skills to choose from where as Humans have 6 Divines giving them 6 skills.. Sylvari and Norn also get 4 since they have 4 cycles and 4 main spirits of the wild.

> > >

> > > They'd still be weak skills though, balanced as such to avoid contributing too much into any class builds.

> > > But now they wouldn't require sacrificing a utility to use them so everyone can enjoy a little feeling of racial diversity without having to screw their build over.

> >

> > Humans could turn into bears in the first game though! It was part of the Norn skills you could get. Just like how Asura had a similar line of skills. The shapeshifting isn't a racial thing it's a blessing from a spirit, I suppose warband support would have to be renamed to be more generic but other than that I could see it working.

>

> Lorewise, it makes no sense for;

>

> - Races other than charr to have Warbands (With exception of norn due to the personal story option where you end up being an honourary Warband member...)

> - Races other than human to receive gifts from the human gods.

> - Races other than asura to have access to personal golems (While, yes, all races can pilot a golem mech suit, not all races will have ready access to one, unlike the asura who build their own as part of their culture and schooling)

> - Races other than sylvari to be able to produce plantlife and mordrem minions (Fern Hounds) at will and summon druid spirits or growing roots into the ground...

> - Arguably, races other than norn having access to transformations (Yes, it was a thing for humans in GW1 and there are some hearts in GW2 where a Havroun can allow someone to become an animal but it's often mentioned in game that its a uniquely norn thing to be able to transform, especially given that their lives revolve heavily around praying and paying respects to the spirits and even going into the mists to help defend them) - Especially for charr whom are atheistic to the fullest as well as asura who'd sooner run experiments on the spirits than respect them (There may also be something to be said about sylvari potentially being immune to transformation by the nature of being dragon minions, just like how they can't be turned by other dragons - I.e. They can't become Risen/Destroyers/Frostborn/Branded)

>

> And then, even if we ignore all this and somehow write in the ability for all these things to be feasible across all races...

>

> All it surmounts to, is a generic mastery line with fancy race themed effects. Since if it's not specifically designed around a race and locked to them, it's not really a "Racial" mastery.

>

> Not to mention the adverse effects it could have on balancing too, such as trying to balance PvP/WvW around everyone having access to Snow Leopard form and thus stealth (Y'all wanna deal with Reapers/Rev's popping out of stealth and murdering your face?)

 

Masteries already don't work outside of PvE so that last point would be a non issue. The "warband" support could just be generic charr support. There's already plenty of precedent so I don't really buy your reasons for them not working for everyone personally. Besides, it'd be fun.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> It'd end up facing the issues that current Racial Skills face.

>

> Which is they're intentionally bad so that people can play what race they like rather than what race is objectively the best for their class/game mode.

>

> It's easy enough to buff the Racial Skills into being relevant, but the thing is that they're not supposed to be relevant.

>

> Unless you make every Race have the same skills, just with a different graphical effect, which would be a lot of work for what would essentially be a generic mastery.

 

What they are suggesting (i think) is every race being abe to learn the racials through masteries which eliviates the issue of them being bad because they are race locked. Furthermore they dont need diff animations or effects the same ones work, albeit they might need to be larger or smaller depending the race.

 

Then you can look to buff them into viability and introdyce a good bunch of skills for every class to utilise, essentially giving you pseudo elite specs specs.

[zealex.9410]

> @"GummyBearSummoner.7941" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > I'm not sure a Sylvari or an Asura moprhing into a giant killer bear is a good....

> >

> > What am I saying...? Go for it!

>

> Sylvari can turn into a moss tree or plant monster while an asura can become a golem ? Idk it could probably work . Guild wars 1 we had norn racial skills. It could prob work for guild wars 2 if done right.

>

 

Gw1 we also had humans in the lore turn into the tree mobs since they went to maguma and became druids.

 

Lore wise theres space for alot, a sylvari being very smart and learning to make and opperate golems, an asura spending time with the norns and learning the ways of the spirits, a norn going to the charr lands, living there and creating a warband, a charr spending time with the humans, coming to contact with their religion and due time believing to them themselves and learning to channel their powers.

[LucianDK.8615]

The racial skills should just be removed as they serve no real purpose. And if players finds a gimmick build with one, like sylvari seed pods, then Anet is swift to nerf it into oblivion. They are just trap skills really.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Wouldn't be lore friendly for a Human to be able to transform into a bear.. nor a Sylvari to have a Charr Warband XD

>

> Honestly though i've made many posts about Racial skills needing a rework.

> My personal preference would be to have them reworked into PvE only F-6, 7, 8 & 9 skills with the 9th skill being defined by your racial choice in the character creation.

> Norn: Animal Form.

> Asura: College.

> Charr: Legion.

> Human; Divine.

> Sylvari: Cycle.

>

> So 3 shared racial skills and 1 defined by choice.

> There's no way to do this without reworking the skills, some would have to be replaced entirely and some new ones added and some races would have more choices than others.. Asura and Charr only have 3 Colleges/Legions giving them only 3 skills to choose from where as Humans have 6 Divines giving them 6 skills.. Sylvari and Norn also get 4 since they have 4 cycles and 4 main spirits of the wild.

>

> They'd still be weak skills though, balanced as such to avoid contributing too much into any class builds.

> But now they wouldn't require sacrificing a utility to use them so everyone can enjoy a little feeling of racial diversity without having to screw their build over.

 

Humans have already been able to use the powers of other races in gw1 and they also channel the favour or other race's divines through masteries in lw. Saying its not lore firnedly is lile saying everyone is basically a copy paste of what their race's lore tab says about them.

 

Besides the collection quest for one of the player made weapons talks about a human spending time with the norn and being extremely fixated on their shapeshifting capabilities.

 

And Scarlet partook in alp 3 colleges of the asura, i think she'd be able to make her own golem, as any other race that shows interest and has what it takes.

[JohnWater.5760]

So Free players won't have it and when a new character hits level 41, we have to play without skill until unlock a elite skill.

Is that right?

[Tails.9372]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Lorewise, it makes no sense for;

> ...

> - Races other than asura to have access to personal golems

Actually according to ingame dialogue the colleges do sell their golems to outside groups.

 

Also, contrary to what you would expect almost all asuran golems seem to be rather standardized (and the ones the PC can summon fall into that category) with the exception of those which belong to key characters like Schraddel.

[Kosmo.3468]

Somethings wouldn't make much sense. For example: a Norn could surely learn how to use a Charrzooka, but can a Charr undergo a spiritual journey to become a Bear? I find that hard to believe.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"GummyBearSummoner.7941" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > I'm not sure a Sylvari or an Asura moprhing into a giant killer bear is a good....

> >

> > What am I saying...? Go for it!

>

> Sylvari can turn into a moss tree or plant monster while an asura can become a golem ? Idk it could probably work . Guild wars 1 we had norn racial skills. It could prob work for guild wars 2 if done right.

>

 

An Asura can enter a golem too

[DragonSlayer.1087]

Lock the racial skills to OPEN WORLD PVE ONLY.

And buff the cool downs.

 

But it's a no for me, to sharing these skills tho.

[Liewec.2896]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> It'd end up facing the issues that current Racial Skills face.

>

> Which is they're intentionally bad so that people can play what race they like rather than what race is objectively the best for their class/game mode.

 

but i don't call that an issue, i call that good design!

 

like in WoW you'd see plenty of night elf rogues because night elves had racial skills and traits that work perfectly for stealthy classes,

while if you were wanting to play a warrior you could check out a race like tauren, who's higher health and pbaoe stun ability made perfect for a frontline bruiser.

 

it'd be great if choice of race actually made a difference in gw2, i wanna see norn and charr warriors being better warrior and guardians than asuras,

but asuras being better casters than norn and charr.

 

i found it exciting in the early days of gw2 when people were actually thinking about what race to play because racial skills were actually being used!

(and they worked in spvp, i had fun theorycrafting stuff, played a sylvari warrior using the racial root combined with 100b!)

[Taril.8619]

> @"Liewec.2896" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > It'd end up facing the issues that current Racial Skills face.

> >

> > Which is they're intentionally bad so that people can play what race they like rather than what race is objectively the best for their class/game mode.

>

> but i don't call that an issue, i call that good design!

 

It's an issue because the devs don't want racials to dictate gameplay.

 

As it goes counter to their "Play how you want" ideology (Though, many balance changes and powercreep and introduction of Holy Trinity in Raids have corroded this anyway)

 

Which is why racial skills are really awful and not usable in sPvP entirely.

 

> @"Liewec.2896" said:

> like in WoW you'd see plenty of night elf rogues because night elves had racial skills and traits that work perfectly for stealthy classes,

> while if you were wanting to play a warrior you could check out a race like tauren, who's higher health and pbaoe stun ability made perfect for a frontline bruiser.

>

> it'd be great if choice of race actually made a difference in gw2, i wanna see norn and charr warriors being better warrior and guardians than asuras,

> but asuras being better casters than norn and charr.

>

> i found it exciting in the early days of gw2 when people were actually thinking about what race to play because racial skills were actually being used!

> (and they worked in spvp, i had fun theorycrafting stuff, played a sylvari warrior using the racial root combined with 100b!)

 

The issue is that it ends up with everyone playing the same race, due to the best bonuses.

 

In WoW this was every PvPer playing Undead back when Will of the Forsaken didn't share a cooldown with PvP trinkets and so was an extra stunbreak, later it became Human when their Racial was literally the PvP stunbreak trinket allowing them to equip 2 stat boosting trinkets instead. For PvE it has always been Troll and Orc due to their actives that grant Attack/Cast speed and Attack/Spell power respectively based on class availability between these two races.

 

For GW2 it manifested itself with PvP/WvW players picking Norn for the stealth skill on Wolf Transformation.

 

One could argue that this would be fine, since not everyone cares that much about min/maxing or PvP/WvW. As well as the fact that [Human](https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics) is by far the most played race anyway (Approximately 40% of all characters are human. With the second most popular race being a tie between Asura, Sylvari and Norn at 15% each)

[Thornwolf.9721]

its clear a-net doesn't want them to work well or be worth while. Just remove them. That would solve the conundrum of their existence and set the standard, one of the reasons that race means nothing and some races have less players than others is strictly because there is not much of a reason to roll one. (an issue in every game where humans or elves(Sylvari) are available) Doesn't help that humans and sylvari have much nicer and even more so a good chunk more customization than the others, they aren't as limited and one of the two glows in the freaking dark? So really it comes down too.... why deal with the clipping when you can look good AND wear any armor you want with no issue.

 

~ a norn exclusive player.