Time for an in house DPS/Heal meter.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Astyrah.4015" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"knite.1542" said:

> > > > @"Astyrah.4015" said:

> > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > > > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said:

> > > > > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance.

> > > > >

> > > > > I already have that.

> > > > > You can, too.

> > > > > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option?

> > > >

> > > > there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box...

> > >

> > > That's a really good joke.

> >

> > **ikr how many times now have people been unable to play the game** after a patch due to build loadout or account saved slots?

>

> usually when a patch is big enough and changes a lot of the memory addresses,, arcdps would not work but instead show nothing and **your game would still launch** ... you had to wait a few hours at most for arcdps to be updated and would be fine again.

>

> the last patch however was an exception and crashed the game and many of it's users did not know what was causing it until they found out from others that it was caused by the addon itself (as evidenced by many threads here in the forums and some threads in reddit at the time)

>

> **never in my post did i say you couldn't play the game, whenever an addon was outdated** - in most cases the game would launch, you can play, but the add-on wont work until you updated it.

>

> i said "work out of the box" which a built in DPS meter would be if we had one, since it goes with the game natively.

> (this has nothing to do whether a DPS meter made by anet would be good or not btw just explaining my post)

 

It was not about the addons crashing the game, the joke was that a ingame meter would be better since its in house, have you seen how many revenants or players with revenant builds in the build storage havent been able to play the last 6months for awhile becouse of updates and its all in house stuff.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said:

> > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > > > > a big fat NO

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > a little skinny WHY NOT?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > because all it does is bread negativity, discrimination and nothing but a bad flow in-game.

> > > > > > if it was up to me i would ban arcDPS from the game and ban ppl from using it, DPS is absolutely useless when you suck at the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > Actuaklly a DPS meter does the opposite. I created an environment where its easier for people to go into groups and prove themselves. Class discrimination was also diminished hard by arc dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let me take you back to a time where we had no legal means of seeing each others dps. Back in HoT times where in raids we had the infamous mirror comps, with 6 supporters and 4 dpslers. Those dps roles? Reserved for eles. The community had the perception that an Ele would always outdps just everything. Other classes in most groups were only taken if no ele would show up for a while and if the group would not meet the dps requirement, the non ele would always be kicked. Example, No updraft Gorseval. Group has 3 Eles and one Dragonhunter but fails to do enough damage to do no updraft Gorseval. Who gets kicked? The Dragonhunter. Because it was "common knowledge" that the ele would always do enough damage and so it was the Dragonhunter who was the weakest link for not building an Ele. Doesn't matter if the DH actually did the most damage or not, he would still getting kicked because everyone thinks that he was the weakest link in the group and if the one who actually did no damage is still in the group then nothing was solved and the group would still wipe on that boss.

> > > > > Now same scenario but with an actual dps meter. Group fails and leader looks at the damage the group did and finds out, 2 Eles and the DH were doing enough but one of the eles was just doing as much as the chrono tank. The leader now knows where the problem is and can act based on actual information instead of perception and class discrimination. Also the new place would be free to any dps class. Even a reaper could show up and pull its own weight ( reapers had the reputation of doing kitten damage, and without an actual dps meter it would have no chance of getting into the group )

> > > > >

> > > > > Today, most raid groups ojnly kick you for bad dps if your damage is actually bad ( like under 10k without doing mechanics or even worse doing as much as the dedicated healers ). Doing just enough is actually that. Enough to actually stay in the raid group.

> > > >

> > > > anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea, if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.

> > > > also, as long as this kind of discrimination happens i will always hate raids, it's nothing but toxicity and doesn't add anything to the game.

> > > >

> > > > but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

> > >

> > > It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > your lack of imagination is mind blowing, do you really know only DPS and nothing more?

> > what about mechanics that kills a boss easier, what about challenges that makes DPS only useful when needed and nothing more?

> > for example, a boss that weakens by taking down it's shields but you need tanks to get to the generators, DPS players would die way to easy while tanks can get trough with ease.

> > also, the whole problem with arcDPS is that no-one can play for the fun of it, it's always way to serious without a hint of fun.

> > if something isn't fun enough in a game it should not exist, i would ether make raids actually fun (lower difficulty) or change it so DPS isn't the main way to play raids.

>

> Yea the green big circles at Drakkar really helps when 90% of the people dont stand in them to avoid bos room damage and a get a 1 minute damage buff, even if Yelled in map chat.

> So what are anet supposed to do really, people ignore mechanics that help kill bosses already.

 

I mean.. I dont stand in that green circle either but thats because its poorly designed imo. You have to move away from the boss and range during the best burst window when hes standing still to get it, so thats already a dps loss. Then as soon as it hits, drakkar goes into the ice and is untargatable for 20s, wasting 1/3 of it. When he comes out he will most of the time breathe his knockback , or start his foot stomps meaning the rest of it is mostly wasted too.

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said:

> > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > > > > a big fat NO

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > a little skinny WHY NOT?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > because all it does is bread negativity, discrimination and nothing but a bad flow in-game.

> > > > > > if it was up to me i would ban arcDPS from the game and ban ppl from using it, DPS is absolutely useless when you suck at the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > Actuaklly a DPS meter does the opposite. I created an environment where its easier for people to go into groups and prove themselves. Class discrimination was also diminished hard by arc dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let me take you back to a time where we had no legal means of seeing each others dps. Back in HoT times where in raids we had the infamous mirror comps, with 6 supporters and 4 dpslers. Those dps roles? Reserved for eles. The community had the perception that an Ele would always outdps just everything. Other classes in most groups were only taken if no ele would show up for a while and if the group would not meet the dps requirement, the non ele would always be kicked. Example, No updraft Gorseval. Group has 3 Eles and one Dragonhunter but fails to do enough damage to do no updraft Gorseval. Who gets kicked? The Dragonhunter. Because it was "common knowledge" that the ele would always do enough damage and so it was the Dragonhunter who was the weakest link for not building an Ele. Doesn't matter if the DH actually did the most damage or not, he would still getting kicked because everyone thinks that he was the weakest link in the group and if the one who actually did no damage is still in the group then nothing was solved and the group would still wipe on that boss.

> > > > > Now same scenario but with an actual dps meter. Group fails and leader looks at the damage the group did and finds out, 2 Eles and the DH were doing enough but one of the eles was just doing as much as the chrono tank. The leader now knows where the problem is and can act based on actual information instead of perception and class discrimination. Also the new place would be free to any dps class. Even a reaper could show up and pull its own weight ( reapers had the reputation of doing kitten damage, and without an actual dps meter it would have no chance of getting into the group )

> > > > >

> > > > > Today, most raid groups ojnly kick you for bad dps if your damage is actually bad ( like under 10k without doing mechanics or even worse doing as much as the dedicated healers ). Doing just enough is actually that. Enough to actually stay in the raid group.

> > > >

> > > > anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea, if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.

> > > > also, as long as this kind of discrimination happens i will always hate raids, it's nothing but toxicity and doesn't add anything to the game.

> > > >

> > > > but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

> > >

> > > It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > your lack of imagination is mind blowing, do you really know only DPS and nothing more?

> > what about mechanics that kills a boss easier, what about challenges that makes DPS only useful when needed and nothing more?

> > for example, a boss that weakens by taking down it's shields but you need tanks to get to the generators, DPS players would die way to easy while tanks can get trough with ease.

> > also, the whole problem with arcDPS is that no-one can play for the fun of it, it's always way to serious without a hint of fun.

> > if something isn't fun enough in a game it should not exist, i would ether make raids actually fun (lower difficulty) or change it so DPS isn't the main way to play raids.

>

> Yea the green big circles at Drakkar really helps when 90% of the people dont stand in them to avoid bos room damage and a get a 1 minute damage buff, even if Yelled in map chat.

> So what are anet supposed to do really, people ignore mechanics that help kill bosses already.

 

That's because 90% of the people activate auto-attack and do something else while you kill the boss. They get the same rewards, of course. This is true for all meta events, as i'm sure we all know.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> That's because 90% of the people activate auto-attack and do something else while you kill the boss. They get the same rewards, of course. This is true for all meta events, as i'm sure we all know.

 

That's because the game's design supports this kind of lazy behavior. And here I thought players played those meta events because they were fun and engaging, I guess they only play them to earn rewards while playing or doing something they consider more fun.

[YtseJam.9784]

I think what ANET should do is provide an interface to read the data used by DPS meters directly through API calls like they do with MumbleLink for player and camera positioning so tools like GW2Taco can use. That way arcdps can call those directly and not have to rely on reverse engineering and reading memlocs that get changed with most updates. Another example is how Logitech keyboards that have an LCD can display character stats and map completion and supported in a similar way.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > your lack of imagination is mind blowing, do you really know only DPS and nothing more?

> > what about mechanics that kills a boss easier, what about challenges that makes DPS only useful when needed and nothing more?

> > for example, a boss that weakens by taking down it's shields but you need tanks to get to the generators, DPS players would die way to easy while tanks can get trough with ease.

> > also, the whole problem with arcDPS is that no-one can play for the fun of it, it's always way to serious without a hint of fun.

> > if something isn't fun enough in a game it should not exist, i would ether make raids actually fun (lower difficulty) or change it so DPS isn't the main way to play raids.

>

> Funny thing is the game has a lot of mechanics like that. It's why there is a need for healers and some form of tank in the game. Even in the Open World there are many encounters that rely on crowd control, without which, regardless of the dps provided, the encounter will fail. There are also encounters with more complex mechanics and of course the many Open World encounters that require killing of different entities within a time limit. You can see in the Octovine fight how the vast majority of players goes towards East, which is the easiest side and just a DPS check, while the more complicated West or South get much much fewer players. In the end the game relies a lot on "just DPS" because that's the brainless thing to do, if it was any different the "masses" wouldn't be able to complete the content anymore. So the more complicated mechanics are left for instances, as they should be

 

but raids are instances, that's why a DPS meter would suck.

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > That's because 90% of the people activate auto-attack and do something else while you kill the boss. They get the same rewards, of course. This is true for all meta events, as i'm sure we all know.

>

> That's because the game's design supports this kind of lazy behavior. And here I thought players played those meta events because they were fun and engaging, I guess they only play them to earn rewards while playing or doing something they consider more fun.

 

Rewards are the only reason, yes. Of course, every MMO of any kind has the same problem, if they can shovel all the work on someone else and still get rewarded, they will do it every time. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

 

For example, in FFXIV when i joined dungeons to progress and later to get those tomestones, in every dungeon there was 2-3 friends/FC members covering each other while they all watched netflix and left all the playing to others. It's even more stupid in FFXIV where you have to pay a sub fee to play. I asked some of them "if the game is too boring to play, why do you keep paying for it?" No answer except excuses and some the usual "u mad bro?" *sigh* I am really considering giving up on MMOs, what utter garbage.

[Besetment.9187]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Lumikki.1725" said:

> > As for DPS been the main thing in combat, that's only because this game lacks active defence.

>

> No, it's DPS because, like in every single game that has ever existed, DPS scales infinitely with regard to the affect it has on content (Well, up until you can literally insta-kill every available target).

>

> Every additional point of DPS you get, shaves the time to kill an enemy by a fraction.

>

> With defences and healing, there's hard caps for how useful they are. If you're tanky enough to survive an encounter, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more tanky. If you can heal up all the incoming damage, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more healing.

>

> Once Tanks/Healers have met their goals of being able to survive/heal through an encounter, the only thing that's left to focus on, is DPS. Since as mentioned earlier, DPS is always relevant.

>

> The only time additional defence/healing matters, is if it allows for more DPS because the Healer/Tank can forgo their own roles and focus on DPS (In a way that outperforms both players having more balanced builds)

>

> It's a fundamental flaw at the heart of the RPG genre as a whole, there simply hasn't been invented a system where defence and healing can actually scale infinitely with an appreciable effect on encounters (Outside of mechanics that convert them into DPS). Nor has there been any attempts to provide a hard limit on DPS where it stops being beneficial to encounters from increasing it (With exception from some older JRPG's, such as when Final Fantasy had a damage cap of 9999 making additional damage stats redundant)

>

 

I think this is sort of the right idea but isn't phrased in the right way. Active defense in GW2 scales infinitely. It does not matter if a boss melee swing hits you for 1000 damage or 10 billion damage. Aegis will block it either way and the incoming damage goes to zero. Same for incoming projectile damage vs projectile reflection and incoming condition damage vs resistance.

 

Support builds are designed to remove all obstructions and interruptions to their teammate's damage output. Their teammate can stand in ground poo and just do their dps rotation with no defensive traits or utilities and without even needing to dodge in some cases (as this interrupts their rotation, lowers their dps uptime and consequently lowers their average dps). Unlike the support player, the DPS player can end the fight sooner by killing the boss faster but there is still a limit to how much damage they can do, how quickly they can do it and how quickly the boss can die (due to invuln phases).

 

Outgoing damage does not scale infinitely and there is a strict limit in terms of how much damage your attacks can do and how many buttons you can press per unit time. You will eventually run into a wall where it is physically impossible to do more dps. Nevertheless, your dps scales aggressively with traits, boons, class specific buffs and player execution up to the point where your uptime is 100%, you have all the damage traits, you are capped on all boons, you have every class specific buff and you don't make any execution errors. At this point your dps will flat line.

 

Damage calculation in GW2 is a multiplication of factors divided by armour rating. Most damage modifiers in GW2 interact multiplicatively. So if you think about how multiplication works, lets assume you have two 10% damage modifiers and your skill damage is 500. Your outgoing damage will be 500 x 1.1 x 1.1 = 605 damage. Compare that having a single 20% damage modifier: 500 x 1.2 = 600 damage. Notice that you get more damage with two 10% damage mods than a single 20% damage mod because they have a compound effect. This is why pve DPS builds don't take a mix of damage, utility and defensive traits. You are heavily incentivized to take all the damage traits possible, even when it makes the build more difficult and dangerous to play. The defence and utility is provided by a support who can pump out far more boons, more healing and more active defences than you can anyway.

 

What isn't obvious to a DPS player not using a DPS meter is the effect of not having boon support, interrupting your dps rotation (for any reason) and not pressing buttons as quickly and accurately as you could. If we just consider boon support in isolation, if you don't have a full compliment of boons, your average and burst damage will literally be halved. My Power Weaver goes from 31k/s average (52k/s burst) with [sC]'s raid buffs to 15k average (27k/s burst) without.

 

Another big determinant in DPS output is how good your execution is. It is very hard to track execution errors without analysing dps logs because they occur at a double digit millisecond timescale. In some cases you won't even see when an auto 1 slips in either side of a skill and you won't notice when and how often you accidentally cancel an auto 3 because its happening too fast. It is also very difficult to quantify how much dps you lose by disengaging for any length of time, for any reason. At some point you will have to do this to avoid getting wiped by boss mechanics, but efficient movement has a very significant impact on dps. For example, take CM Skorvald and compare your dps when you play with a portal chain vs when you don't. The difference is on the order of 1.5x average dps and that is mostly due to portal reducing dps downtime when moving between anomalies.

[Daddicus.6128]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Lyttle.9426" said:

> > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > @"keenedge.9675" said:

> > > > That is in the same category as 'gear inspection'. Too divisive.

> > > >

> > > I think gear inspect would be an excellent QoL feature

> >

> > Only with permission of the inspectee. Generate a temp inspection key and post it in chat that can be used for others to see your gear.

> Why?

> Just about every other major MMO I have played allows this kind of functionality without some form of silly consent mechanism.

 

Because this is NOT "every other major MMO".

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > @"Lyttle.9426" said:

> > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > > @"keenedge.9675" said:

> > > > > That is in the same category as 'gear inspection'. Too divisive.

> > > > >

> > > > I think gear inspect would be an excellent QoL feature

> > >

> > > Only with permission of the inspectee. Generate a temp inspection key and post it in chat that can be used for others to see your gear.

> > Why?

> > Just about every other major MMO I have played allows this kind of functionality without some form of silly consent mechanism.

>

> Because this is NOT "every other major MMO".

Wasn't this the argument against mounts as well?

[Taril.8619]

> @"Besetment.9187" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > @"Lumikki.1725" said:

> > > As for DPS been the main thing in combat, that's only because this game lacks active defence.

> >

> > No, it's DPS because, like in every single game that has ever existed, DPS scales infinitely with regard to the affect it has on content (Well, up until you can literally insta-kill every available target).

> >

> > Every additional point of DPS you get, shaves the time to kill an enemy by a fraction.

> >

> > With defences and healing, there's hard caps for how useful they are. If you're tanky enough to survive an encounter, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more tanky. If you can heal up all the incoming damage, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more healing.

> >

> > Once Tanks/Healers have met their goals of being able to survive/heal through an encounter, the only thing that's left to focus on, is DPS. Since as mentioned earlier, DPS is always relevant.

> >

> > The only time additional defence/healing matters, is if it allows for more DPS because the Healer/Tank can forgo their own roles and focus on DPS (In a way that outperforms both players having more balanced builds)

> >

> > It's a fundamental flaw at the heart of the RPG genre as a whole, there simply hasn't been invented a system where defence and healing can actually scale infinitely with an appreciable effect on encounters (Outside of mechanics that convert them into DPS). Nor has there been any attempts to provide a hard limit on DPS where it stops being beneficial to encounters from increasing it (With exception from some older JRPG's, such as when Final Fantasy had a damage cap of 9999 making additional damage stats redundant)

> >

>

> I think this is sort of the right idea but isn't phrased in the right way. Active defense in GW2 scales infinitely.

 

You're missing the context of "In terms of the effect it has on the encounter"

 

In a vacuum, active defence scales infinitely as a numerical value. But in terms of the effect on an encounter, so long as you survive until the end, it doesn't matter if you do so at 1hp or 10,000,000hp the end result is still that you survived the encounter. You still get the same number of rewards, you still took the same amount of time to beat the encounter. There is no appreciable difference on the overall encounter.

 

> @"Besetment.9187" said:

> Outgoing damage does not scale infinitely

 

This is technically true in the sense that, eventually if you just keep increasing DPS, you'll eventually hit a point where there no longer exists a "Per second" because you just insta-kill the enemy. At which point outgoing damage increases cease to provide any benefit (But at the same time, all other metrics of player improvement do too. Defence and healing are meaningless in encounters that are instantly killed). However, this particular cap is so ridiculously far beyond all other statisitical caps and player ability (Barring some odd shenanigans such as the incident in Warhammer Online where Slayers could achieve a 0.0 attack speed and thus deal an infinite amount of damage instantaneously) in content where "DPS" matters that it is in effect not capped.

 

Before the cap where you instantly kill enemies and encounters, every single point of DPS does have an impact on the encounter, by reducing the time it takes to defeat it allowing a player to gain more rewards per time (Although the actual effect of singular points of DPS are so miniscule as to be irrelevant equating to <0.001s).

 

Meanwhile, the issue of Defence and Healing are that they both "Cap" out within a players means. It is entirely possible to survive encounters with currently attainable defences and healing (Aided by the infinite scaling of active defences which completely negate the need to itemize for defence by providing unlimited scaling at 0 attribute cost - I.e. Why wear Soldier gear when dodging and blocking mitigate 100% of damage even when wearing full Berserker gear?). After which point, the only stat that scales with an effect on encounters, is DPS.

 

[Besetment.9187]

Look, I didn't disagree with your conclusion but all you are doing is paraphrasing what I already said. The only thing I disagree with is your explanation, which greatly understates how completely busted support builds are and the incorrect use of terms like infinite scaling to refer to builds that have no such thing.

 

It is really common in T4s for people to ruin their own dps by dodging/disengaging unnecessarily because they do not trust their supports to give them aegis for We Bleed Fire and resistance to stand in fire/poison ground aoe. Even when you actually do these things. So you see people double dodging out and waiting for Mama/Siax poison to go away, even though the FB has pre-emptively cast tome 3.4 and the Ren has pre-emptively cast Pain Absorption.

 

Ironically, this can be solved if more dps players roll a pocket support and play it every now and then, so they know what they are capable of. Its also fun, if you are into selfless teamplay.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Besetment.9187" said:

> Look, I didn't disagree with your conclusion but all you are doing is paraphrasing what I already said. The only thing I disagree with is your explanation, which greatly understates how completely busted support builds are and the incorrect use of terms like infinite scaling to refer to builds that have no such thing.

 

I didn't use the term infinite scaling incorrectly.

 

You're just reading it without the context in which I was using it. You also made a point to completely ignore my entire explanation and then go off on a tangent about something completely irrelevant in a "Matter of fact" tone.

 

I am not paraphrasing what you have already said, because you're saying something completely different to me.

 

> @"Besetment.9187" said:

> It is really common in T4s for people to ruin their own dps by dodging/disengaging unnecessarily because they do not trust their supports to give them aegis for We Bleed Fire and resistance to stand in fire/poison ground aoe. Even when you actually do these things. So you see people double dodging out and waiting for Mama/Siax poison to go away, even though the FB has pre-emptively cast tome 3.4 and the Ren has pre-emptively cast Pain Absorption.

 

This is again, completely irrelevant to any of what I discussed.

 

This completely ignores what I mentioned about defence. What I mentioned about healing. What I mentioned about DPS.

 

It ignores the basic premise of focusing DPS and simply just highlights that in PuG parties, people don't trust others to play effectively. Which has nothing to do with optimization, gearing or general focus on DPS.

 

Supporting can lead to increased DPS, but only to a point. When you're doing things like providing the Aegis (Doesn't care about Healing Power), applying Resistance (Doesn't care about Healing Power) you can render boss mechanics obsolete and the party can deal more damage. But focusing more on support than this doesn't necessarily change things. At best in this particular instance you can stack Concentration so that your Resistance lasts longer if it wasn't already mitigating the entire mechanic, but if it was then it's doing nothing in this case. You can also stack healing power to get stronger heals... That you don't need to use because you're already mitigating 100% of the damage via Aegis and Resistance...

 

Which is the point I was making.

 

It's not that defence and healing cannot contribute to DPS (Heck, it's why there's still a dedicated "Tank" player in raids who brings a build that runs Blocks and knows when to Evade), it's that after a certain point, they no longer provide ANYTHING to a party at a much more rapid rate than DPS scales into not providing anything. With also much of the defence and support in the game, not actually requiring much if any stat investment to utilize allowing players to focus more onto purely offensive stats (Which is why things such as Soulbeast's 150 toughness from being merged with Beast Mastery spec can cause an issue, due to toughness based aggro in raids and the fact that the "Tank" of a raid will be running on base toughness because it's completely unnecessary as a stat when dodges, blocks, aegis and resistance all provide 100% damage reductions irregardless of stats) - This is to say nothing about how optimal use of defence and healing is measured by how much more DPS can be pushed out as a result, rather than being measured by "Can you actually finish the encounter" which would be the case if having a focus on something other than DPS actually mattered.

 

Even with phase transitions, DPS can actually still skip phases by taking a bosses health down to the next phase change before many, if any, mechanics are used. Which is literally where the term "Phase skipping" comes from, when people save all their big burst to simply transition a phase as quickly as possible and minimize the mechanics of said phase.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea,

It's your low dps that prevents you from participating in some types of content. Not the dps meter - that one just reveals to everyone else that you're only good enough to be carried, and can;t do your share of the necessary effort.

 

> if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.

That's something that is completely separate from discussion about DPS meters. If all that mattered was doing mechanics well, and dps didn't really matter, people would not bother checking it that much. They do check it, because it currently **is** one of the more important factors.

 

> but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

It's not impossible due to ArcDPS. It's impossible due to the fact that a group that can't do that minimum of required dps will simply _fail_. Without Arc the group won't be able to do more dps than with it. And it will not be any more succesful either. All lack of Arc might to would be to make it harder for the group to understand why they're failing, and to pinpoint the players dragging the rest down.

And, incidentally, for most players constantly failing and not being able to win, it stops being fun very, very fast. Especially when they don't understand why they're failing.

 

 

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea,

> It's your low dps that prevents you from participating in some types of content. Not the dps meter - that one just reveals to everyone else that you're only good enough to be carried, and can;t do your share of the necessary effort.

 

who said i have low DPS, i surely didn't.

 

> > if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.

> That's something that is completely separate from discussion about DPS meters. If all that mattered was doing mechanics well, and dps didn't really matter, people would not bother checking it that much. They do check it, because it currently **is** one of the more important factors.

 

which **is** the problem of this game and it needs to change.

> > but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

> It's not impossible due to ArcDPS. It's impossible due to the fact that a group that can't do that minimum of required dps will simply _fail_. Without Arc the group won't be able to do more dps than with it. And it will not be any more succesful either. All lack of Arc might to would be to make it harder for the group to understand why they're failing, and to pinpoint the players dragging the rest down.

> And, incidentally, for most players constantly failing and not being able to win, it stops being fun very, very fast. Especially when they don't understand why they're failing.

>

>

if something can only succeed with max DPS then it's not fun at all, it's a job to work hard for which isn't my kind of fun.

fun is when ppl can join up, play the raid and have a jolly time.

if ppl only care about success and a speedy clear then again, something is horribly wrong and needs to be changed.

 

[Daddicus.6128]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said:

> > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > > > @"keenedge.9675" said:

> > > > > > That is in the same category as 'gear inspection'. Too divisive.

> > > > > >

> > > > > I think gear inspect would be an excellent QoL feature

> > > >

> > > > Only with permission of the inspectee. Generate a temp inspection key and post it in chat that can be used for others to see your gear.

> > > Why?

> > > Just about every other major MMO I have played allows this kind of functionality without some form of silly consent mechanism.

> >

> > Because this is NOT "every other major MMO".

> Wasn't this the argument against mounts as well?

 

I don't know and don't care. It's quite irrelevant whether it was or not.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea,

> > It's your low dps that prevents you from participating in some types of content. Not the dps meter - that one just reveals to everyone else that you're only good enough to be carried, and can;t do your share of the necessary effort.

>

> who said i have low DPS, i surely didn't.

You did strongly suggest it when you mentioned that other people using ArcDPS prevent you from playing. If your dps was okay, other people seeing it would not have been any problem for you and could not stop you from doing anything.

 

>

> > > if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.

> > That's something that is completely separate from discussion about DPS meters. If all that mattered was doing mechanics well, and dps didn't really matter, people would not bother checking it that much. They do check it, because it currently **is** one of the more important factors.

>

> which **is** the problem of this game and it needs to change.

Possibly. It's irrelevant in this discussion however, as it is not a discussion about the encounters and combat system, but about dps meter.

 

> > > but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

> > It's not impossible due to ArcDPS. It's impossible due to the fact that a group that can't do that minimum of required dps will simply _fail_. Without Arc the group won't be able to do more dps than with it. And it will not be any more succesful either. All lack of Arc might to would be to make it harder for the group to understand why they're failing, and to pinpoint the players dragging the rest down.

> > And, incidentally, for most players constantly failing and not being able to win, it stops being fun very, very fast. Especially when they don't understand why they're failing.

> >

> >

> if something can only succeed with max DPS then it's not fun at all, it's a job to work hard for which isn't my kind of fun.

> fun is when ppl can join up, play the raid and have a jolly time.

> if ppl only care about success and a speedy clear then again, something is horribly wrong and needs to be changed.

Again, irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you want to discuss changes to how the encounters are designed, please, do so, or argue about it in threads that are about this issue. In _this_ thread however it is as relevant as you complaining about, say, class balance issues. So, not at all.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea,

> > It's your low dps that prevents you from participating in some types of content. Not the dps meter - that one just reveals to everyone else that you're only good enough to be carried, and can;t do your share of the necessary effort.

>

> who said i have low DPS, i surely didn't.

>

> > > if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.

> > That's something that is completely separate from discussion about DPS meters. If all that mattered was doing mechanics well, and dps didn't really matter, people would not bother checking it that much. They do check it, because it currently **is** one of the more important factors.

>

> which **is** the problem of this game and it needs to change.

> > > but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

> > It's not impossible due to ArcDPS. It's impossible due to the fact that a group that can't do that minimum of required dps will simply _fail_. Without Arc the group won't be able to do more dps than with it. And it will not be any more succesful either. All lack of Arc might to would be to make it harder for the group to understand why they're failing, and to pinpoint the players dragging the rest down.

> > And, incidentally, for most players constantly failing and not being able to win, it stops being fun very, very fast. Especially when they don't understand why they're failing.

> >

> >

> if something can only succeed with max DPS then it's not fun at all, it's a job to work hard for which isn't my kind of fun.

> fun is when ppl can join up, play the raid and have a jolly time.

> if ppl only care about success and a speedy clear then again, something is horribly wrong and needs to be changed.

>

 

Nobody said you can only succeed with max DPS. They said you can't succeed without a minimum of DPS. How is that a problem with the game? Do you propose bosses that don't take damage by conventional means? Is it a raid boss or a puzzle we're fighting here?

 

Maybe they can come up with some super cool raid concept nobody's ever seen before, like...fighting a dragon from the deck of an airship by shooting it with cannons! Yeah! That'd be innovative!

[Etria.3642]

So here is how ArcDPS helped me.

 

Last week we cleared soulless horror and it felt SO much easier than the first time. Which was about a year ago or so when I was just starting raids and on the easiest class, shortbow shortbow soulbeast. I was 5th in dps with a whopping 8373 dps.

 

Last week. Same class. Same fight. Our group though is now pretty experienced (but still far from top tier). I was 4th. But now my dps was 17994.

 

ArcDPS helped me learn when I could move, how much sitting in buffs helps, and to take that first fight, how much lower NOT doing things right hurts. Without seeing the actual numbers I wouldn't have bothered getting better because I wouldn't have known how trash I was. Still a ways to go. Must learn mirage since I haven't yet cleared Largos.

 

What worries me about an in house dps meter though is whether it will show everything ArcDPS does. I can check for mechanics missed, rezzes done, phases of the fight, even recreate the fight to see who caused a wipe. It's just so helpful.

[Daddicus.6128]

So, how does ArcDPS account for interrupts (of the enemies)? How about boons turned into conditions? The effect of boons applied to the party?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Templates. Anet made an inferior product, put a pricetag on it, then made the free fanmade version a bannable offense.

I do not trust anet to make a decent product unless they license the current arcdps from the current makers.

The only inhouse add on I want in the game is an inspection feature. People should have the option to make sure people have decent equipment before deciding to stay with a group. People are shocked when i leave t4 fractal groups when members with 58 ar join and the group will not kick them.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> So, how does ArcDPS account for interrupts (of the enemies)? How about boons turned into conditions? The effect of boons applied to the party?

 

There is an extremely detailed boon table with uptimes, offgroup and main group covering and outgoing boons from each player.

Interrupts are probably a limitation of arc since hard cc context is not notified by server. Only shows the number of interrupts and not what was interrupted.

Boon strips and condi cleanses are also shown but only the toal amount and not what was cleansed/stripped. Also shows evades, invuln, blind weakness and a lot of other stuff besied dps. You even get a full combat replay.

[Daddicus.6128]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > So, how does ArcDPS account for interrupts (of the enemies)? How about boons turned into conditions? The effect of boons applied to the party?

>

> There is an extremely detailed boon table with uptimes, offgroup and main group covering and outgoing boons from each player.

> Interrupts are probably a limitation of arc since hard cc context is not notified by server. Only shows the number of interrupts and not what was interrupted.

> Boon strips and condi cleanses are also shown but only the toal amount and not what was cleansed/stripped. Also shows evades, invuln, blind weakness and a lot of other stuff besied dps. You even get a full combat replay.

 

Thank you! I'll check it out.

[Rauderi.8706]

Not a fan of meters myself, but I always support highly-used functions being a part of the game itself and not at the mercy or whim of third parties.

I hope ANet gets on it.