why is lich still AAing for 6k?

[Aktium.9506]

Lich needs to be harder to counter. It's currently in a situation where it's either useless or too powerful. Most Necro players with Lich slotted spend most of a fight playing around that and will try to force fights to play out in a way where they can't be LoS'ed, chain CC'ed, blind spammed, or nullified by projectile destruction or reflection. I can't speak for other Necros but for me this detracts from the gameplay.

 

And from the other perspective, when you get into a situation where you can't counter Lich pic related happens and that's about as fun as double Moa was.


 

Ideally Lich should be changed to function in a way that is not as easy to counter but is also not an instant win button when the counter isn't there. The goal with the February patch was to move away from circumstances where single mistakes results in instant death. Lich as it currently exists has no place in the current game balance.

 

One idea I'm partial to is lower the damage of the Deathly Claws significantly. Or possibly changing it to work as a charged up skill like Prime Light Beam, a slower moving projectile with some added effects like a green skinned version of the Chaos Vortex spheres but slower or maybe just straight up make Lich melee. While also adding the unique condition inflicted by Grim Spectre to all the skills in the Lich kit.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Aktium.9506" said:

> Lich needs to be harder to counter. It's currently in a situation where it's either useless or too powerful. Most Necro players with Lich slotted spend most of a fight playing around that and will try to force fights to play out in a way where they can't be LoS'ed, chain CC'ed, blind spammed, or nullified by projectile destruction or reflection. I can't speak for other Necros but for me this detracts from the gameplay.

>

> And from the other perspective, when you get into a situation where you can't counter Lich pic related happens and that's about as fun as double Moa was.

> 

>

> Ideally Lich should be changed to function in a way that is not as easy to counter but is also not an instant win button when the counter isn't there. The goal with the February patch was to move away from circumstances where single mistakes results in instant death. Lich as it currently exists has no place in the current game balance.

>

> One idea I'm partial to is lower the damage of the Deathly Claws significantly. Or possibly changing it to work as a charged up skill like Prime Light Beam, a slower moving projectile with some added effects like a green skinned version of the Chaos Vortex spheres but slower or maybe just straight up make Lich melee. While also adding the unique condition inflicted by Grim Spectre to all the skills in the Lich kit.

 

I just find it weird that lich has better scaling in pvp then pve, while it should be other way around lol.

lich auto deals more then most hard hitting abilities, I personally dont like 1 year cooldown skills that are broken but super rare, and if you use it wrong you wont get to use it for the next half of the game.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Aktium.9506" said:

> Lich needs to be harder to counter. It's currently in a situation where it's either useless or too powerful. Most Necro players with Lich slotted spend most of a fight playing around that and will try to force fights to play out in a way where they can't be LoS'ed, chain CC'ed, blind spammed, or nullified by projectile destruction or reflection. I can't speak for other Necros but for me this detracts from the gameplay.

>

> And from the other perspective, when you get into a situation where you can't counter Lich pic related happens and that's about as fun as double Moa was.

> 

>

> Ideally Lich should be changed to function in a way that is not as easy to counter but is also not an instant win button when the counter isn't there. The goal with the February patch was to move away from circumstances where single mistakes results in instant death. Lich as it currently exists has no place in the current game balance.

>

> One idea I'm partial to is lower the damage of the Deathly Claws significantly. Or possibly changing it to work as a charged up skill like Prime Light Beam, a slower moving projectile with some added effects like a green skinned version of the Chaos Vortex spheres but slower or maybe just straight up make Lich melee. While also adding the unique condition inflicted by Grim Spectre to all the skills in the Lich kit.

It's basically a weaker form of the unnerfed warrior rampage and a nice example for what's wrong with this game.

 

The skill design is horrible. It has clear counters and a ridiculously high cooldown, but the damage is like playing PvE in PvP for 10 seconds - just nuke the target and see how far you can get (unfortunately too far in some situations).

 

I - as a necro main - think this skill is trash. I would prefer to have a skill with a lower cooldown, more versatility, but less damage. This would help the class and the game.

 

Currently lich form seems to be meant to compensate core necro's poor power based pressure, but on a 150s cooldown. And this is just dumb design.

[ollbirtan.2915]

Amazing how many people complain about a skill that is easily avoidable when one just takes a little bit of effort to improve.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> Amazing how many people complain about a skill that is easily avoidable when one just takes a little bit of effort to improve.

 

Same could be said about every other class really,

 

but when Anet are trying to bring down the damage levels, an Auto attack hitting 6k each time is kinda stupid

[ledernierrempart.6871]

if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

 

corrupt stab into fear? lol

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

>

> corrupt stab into fear? lol

 

So, quickly swap chars to your Necro or Rev is what you are saying?

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > > if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

> >

> > corrupt stab into fear? lol

>

> So, quickly swap chars to your Necro or Rev is what you are saying?

 

Did you actually read what the person you quoted quoted?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > > if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

> >

> > corrupt stab into fear? lol

>

> So, quickly swap chars to your Necro or Rev is what you are saying?

 

you should reread what I responded to.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

 

Corrosive poison cloud, corrupt stab to fear, remove stab - > fear, counter lich, worm port, los, shroud for prot with eternal life, blind...

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > if you play necro and the enemy necro pop lich, you are dead. there is no counter play.

>

> Corrosive poison cloud, corrupt stab to fear, remove stab - > fear, counter lich, worm port, los, shroud for prot with eternal life, blind...

 

i forgot necro has an anti projectile skill.. not everyone use that in their build anyway as it replace very usefull skills in most necro builds..

also it only last for 8 seconds.

his stab is not one big stab but several stab pulse. so it will not be very effective as for when the fear ends.

necro don't have access to alot of blind.

 

of course in a 1v1 situation you may manage. but when you are engaged in a figth and suddenly, when some skills are on CD, a lich appears, it often means death.

and it's a very low risk skill for the lich player as he knows he deal too much damage so his target will try to dodge, cast some skills to avoid the lich while you only press one button. the amount of pressure the lich form has is a bit too much anyway.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

 

> of course in a 1v1 situation you may manage. but when you are engaged in a figth and suddenly, when some skills are on CD, a lich appears, it often means death.

 

That's the issue. Elite skills should not be like MOBA ults that are just "xD i win now!"

 

[John.8507]

Core Necromancer has been nerfed enough, without the high damage of the lich, when you manage to use it, DPS is not that great.

 

Also I think its silly the Lich can be feared, Tried to move in to the fight, then get hit by something and feared, and run the other way, makes it pretty useless when it only lasts 10 seconds.

[Aktium.9506]

> @"John.8507" said:

> Core Necromancer has been nerfed enough, without the high damage of the lich, when you manage to use it, DPS is not that great.

>

> Also I think its silly the Lich can be feared, Tried to move in to the fight, then get hit by something and feared, and run the other way, makes it pretty useless when it only lasts 10 seconds.

Core Nec doesn't really lose anything if you take away Lich. Plaguelands is a better option in most situations for Core Nec.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"John.8507" said:

> Also I think its silly the Lich can be feared, Tried to move in to the fight, then get hit by something and feared, and run the other way, makes it pretty useless when it only lasts 10 seconds.

 

Yeah you'd think that but apparently Tornado can be immobilized as well

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"John.8507" said:

> Core Necromancer has been nerfed enough, without the high damage of the lich, when you manage to use it, DPS is not that great.

>

> Also I think its silly the Lich can be feared, Tried to move in to the fight, then get hit by something and feared, and run the other way, makes it pretty useless when it only lasts 10 seconds.

 

you know ability is busted when condi build takes power ability and 4shots people with its autoattack kek

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> you know ability is busted when condi build takes power ability and 4shots people with its autoattack kek

I mean it does also have a 600 range Unblockable 5 target AoE Fear that is tied with Doom for longest base duration Fear in the entire Necro kit.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

When rampage did high damage, people complained that while counterplay was possible, it required them to burn too many defenses to be feasible.

The same should apply here and I don't know why people are defending its damage output by claiming that other things (that we can also change) justify it. Give it a **shorter cooldown, but reduce the damage on auto**. I don't care that it only has one stack of stab while rampage has more, it can also do its damage from range.

 

If they begin to underperform because Lich was hard carrying them, accept that they were not balanced and look into their other elites/traitlines to see what else you can modify.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

If you can't kite or dodge for 10 seconds, uninstall.

[sitarskee.5738]

Damage is way too high for current standards but lich is kinda slow which makes it not hard to avoid most of the damage. ANet won't change it anytime soon so you're better off just learning to evade it more efficiently.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> When rampage did high damage, people complained that while counterplay was possible, it required them to burn too many defenses to be feasible.

> The same should apply here and I don't know why people are defending its damage output by claiming that other things (that we can also change) justify it. Give it a **shorter cooldown, but reduce the damage on auto**. I don't care that it only has one stack of stab while rampage has more, it can also do its damage from range.

>

> If they begin to underperform because Lich was hard carrying them, accept that they were not balanced and look into their other elites/traitlines to see what else you can modify.

 

The problem with the comparison is that rampage did its damage while also CCing you.

 

I'm all for lowering the damage on Lich form. Heck lower the damage by 20~33%. Its not going to prevent people from not counter-playing it, dying to it, complaining about it, and saying "it hasn't been addressed".

 

Personally I would rather have the old or new grim spectre as its own skill instead of the transform but I know people like it /shrug

[Goosekilla.2796]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> Thats funny, a necro just today cried and called me a noob runner for using a pillar for 10 seconds. He didn't even managed to hit me once while transformed. What an overpowered skill.

 

I feel like a defensive OP is not game-breaking in the same way as offensive OP, though. "You can't kill me" for 10 sec on long CD is very different from "As soon as you run out of CDs in the next 10 sec, I win" on long CD. The fact is that yes, some defense is possible - especially if you spec specifically for this, but that seems a bit silly to have one skill that everyone needs to make sure they're kitted to counter (i.e. pack a reflect, because chain CC and evades don't cut it for a 10sec duration with periodic stability; only serious counter-play is kill it by reflects). It should be strong, but 2-shot kill auto attacks for 10 seconds is way out of line with any other skill in this game. Especially with 2v2 game mode.

 

 

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Goosekilla.2796" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > Thats funny, a necro just today cried and called me a noob runner for using a pillar for 10 seconds. He didn't even managed to hit me once while transformed. What an overpowered skill.

>

> I feel like a defensive OP is not game-breaking in the same way as offensive OP, though. "You can't kill me" for 10 sec on long CD is very different from "As soon as you run out of CDs in the next 10 sec, I win" on long CD. The fact is that yes, some defense is possible - especially if you spec specifically for this, but that seems a bit silly to have one skill that everyone needs to make sure they're kitted to counter (i.e. pack a reflect, because chain CC and evades don't cut it for a 10sec duration with periodic stability; only serious counter-play is kill it by reflects). It should be strong, but 2-shot kill auto attacks for 10 seconds is way out of line with any other skill in this game. Especially with 2v2 game mode.

>

>

 

The game is not balanced for 2v2 or 3v3 though. It's balanced around conquest, and it's impossible to balance around both unless you remake the whole combat system. So while it might be too OP for dual necro in 2v2, I honestly do not care because once you delete lich form from the game, something else will pop up that will be just as "opressive" as that.

There are counterplays to lich, use them.

[Goosekilla.2796]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Goosekilla.2796" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > Thats funny, a necro just today cried and called me a noob runner for using a pillar for 10 seconds. He didn't even managed to hit me once while transformed. What an overpowered skill.

> >

> > I feel like a defensive OP is not game-breaking in the same way as offensive OP, though. "You can't kill me" for 10 sec on long CD is very different from "As soon as you run out of CDs in the next 10 sec, I win" on long CD. The fact is that yes, some defense is possible - especially if you spec specifically for this, but that seems a bit silly to have one skill that everyone needs to make sure they're kitted to counter (i.e. pack a reflect, because chain CC and evades don't cut it for a 10sec duration with periodic stability; only serious counter-play is kill it by reflects). It should be strong, but 2-shot kill auto attacks for 10 seconds is way out of line with any other skill in this game. Especially with 2v2 game mode.

> >

> >

>

> The game is not balanced for 2v2 or 3v3 though. It's balanced around conquest, and it's impossible to balance around both unless you remake the whole combat system. So while it might be too OP for dual necro in 2v2, I honestly do not care because once you delete lich form from the game, something else will pop up that will be just as "opressive" as that.

> There are counterplays to lich, use them.

 

No this is the whole point - the next closest most oppressive thing (probably grenade barage? that's what people QQ the most about) is not even close! Barage is a 28 sec CD, single attack that does similar damage to the Lich AA. I use counterplay to lich and sometimes win, but it is still a stupid skill and needs toned down (not deleted, just toned down).

I really don't get why this is contentious. Everyone realized Rampage needed the nerf when it got it. Lich is pretty clearly an oversight.