Should dps meters get banned?

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

 

> Exactly, "trying to filter out people that don't fit".

That's like saying that putting a description in LFG to find people who want to do a casual run of a dungeon and filter out those who don't fit the criteria, is considered a job.

 

> Who cares about toxic pugs? Ban arcdps and they will use something different. I am thankful to arcdps because I can play reaper and still have definite proof of I'm pulling my weight.

Right. Who cares about cheaters, exploiters, people insulting and threatening others, trolls etc... No point bothering to try and get rid of them, since they can just come back or you could simply make your own lfg and ignore them, right?

 

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

>

> > Exactly, "trying to filter out people that don't fit".

> That's like saying that putting a description in LFG to find people who want to do a casual run of a dungeon and filter out those who don't fit the criteria, is considered a job.

>

> > Who cares about toxic pugs? Ban arcdps and they will use something different. I am thankful to arcdps because I can play reaper and still have definite proof of I'm pulling my weight.

> Right. Who cares about cheaters, exploiters, people insulting and threatening others, trolls etc... No point bothering to try and get rid of them, since they can just come back or you could simply make your own lfg and ignore them, right?

>

>

 

Yes you are correct make your own group dont try to join people were your experience is lacking that's where the rub is.

 

Low experience people get kicked when not being up to snuff, then come to the forum and complain about toxic elitist.

 

When its the the other way around we here crickets I wonder why, nah I really dont they just make a new group and do the content again with competent people.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> Right. Who cares about cheaters, exploiters, people insulting and threatening others, trolls etc...

Not saying toxic people shouldn't be banned. Tool itself is fine.

 

> No point bothering to try and get rid of them, since they can just come back or you could simply make your own lfg and ignore them, right?

Yes you can make your own lfg

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> >

> > > Exactly, "trying to filter out people that don't fit".

> > That's like saying that putting a description in LFG to find people who want to do a casual run of a dungeon and filter out those who don't fit the criteria, is considered a job.

> >

> > > Who cares about toxic pugs? Ban arcdps and they will use something different. I am thankful to arcdps because I can play reaper and still have definite proof of I'm pulling my weight.

> > Right. Who cares about cheaters, exploiters, people insulting and threatening others, trolls etc... No point bothering to try and get rid of them, since they can just come back or you could simply make your own lfg and ignore them, right?

> >

> >

>

> Yes you are correct make your own group dont try to join people were your experience is lacking that's where the rub is.

>

> Low experience people get kicked when not being up to snuff, then come to the forum and complain about toxic elitist.

>

> When its the the other way around we here crickets I wonder why, nah I really dont they just make a new group and do the content again with competent people.

 

Oh , yes, I was waiting for this post. Assume person is bad because they don't support dps meter. Classic.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

 

> Yes you can make your own lfg

 

You could make your own lfg where people wouldn't mind necro in group. No need for dps meter for that.

[ArchonWing.9480]

It's not private information once you enter a party. Well, it's not yours anyways.

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

Remember kids... when you go for a group/squad/party work... what ever u do is important and effects the group and tbh u should accomplish your role.

You are the healer? You should make sure nobody dies (not always as ppl sometimesdont dodge and try to keep themselves alive) and u should watchout for big incoming dmgs (example:VG greens) and most of the times boons are ur job too. All of wat a healer/supporter has to do is visible ingame and doesnt need a 3rd party tool to be judged

If u are a dps however...we can see how fast or slow does the enemy bar goes down but we dont know who is dealing good dmg and who is getting carried by other's dpses so arcdps helpsus detect ppl with low effort most of the time and replace them with someone who puts as much effort as others. No one wants to carry u if u dont want to help. Your dps isnt personal in group content. In OW however... my full heal druid can solo balthazar HP in AB :)

[TwoGhosts.6790]

The results are in...

Seems pretty conclusive.

[Naqam a.6521]

Allow people to report Damage Meter Results as ''spam'' (muted for some minutes/1 hour in Fractals/Specific World Map Boss area).

There will be a struggle at first , with one group trying to use Damage Meter as a tool to force the other group to pick up the slack (something like name and shame?) , while the second group will ''feel'' they have something to be defended with :)

 

6 months later , there will be a more moderate ''peace'' .

While among guild members/friends the Addon can be used as many time as they wish

[Dante.1508]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks.

>

> But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever

>

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

> > > >

> > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

> > >

> > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example?

> > >

> >

> > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch.

>

> Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars.

 

See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

> @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> The results are in...

> Seems pretty conclusive.

 

If thats the case why are raids considered niche and the population doing them so small.. I think a forum poll does not show the full picture of customers.

[TwoGhosts.6790]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

 

It's impossible for me to take that comparison seriously. You're really stretching.

 

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > The results are in...

> > Seems pretty conclusive.

>

> If thats the case why are raids considered niche and the population doing them so small.. I think a forum poll does not show the full picture of customers.

 

I don't do raids, and I use arcdps all the time.

 

Ofc a forum poll does not show the full picture of all customers. For that you would have to poll them all.

 

But the results of this poll are clear, and one might assume that it represents the views of that proportion of the playerbase which both frequents the forums and which cares enough about the issue to vote.

 

It's not dismissable.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> It's not private information once you enter a party. Well, it's not yours anyways.

 

Nothing ever says that entering a party should result in people needing to share information, especially unknowingly. Where did you get this idea? I've played plenty of other games where we didn't have this and we completed all content without an issue. And those were the games that were actually somewhat challenging. Guild wars 2 is the only game I encountered this and it's suppose to be a casual game.

Arguments like "you can make your own party" apply to both sides easily.

[yann.1946]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks.

> >

> > But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever

> >

> > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

> > > > >

> > > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

> > > >

> > > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example?

> > > >

> > >

> > > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch.

> >

> > Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars.

>

> See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

 

But it's not an hack per definition. It doesn't change the game code/information that gets send to the server.

 

And let's be clear here, toxicity decreased from my experience after the introduction of dps meters not increased.

 

And will you address the point I made about rules not applying to all cases. Why should add-ons be the one exception to this and be all or nothing?

 

 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

Most fractals and raids have some mechanics which can be skipped via decent dps.

If the crowd wants big dps, why even have such mechanics. Its waste of developers time. I'd say remove all the mechanics and put hard dps check otherwise remove 3rd party dps meter and make inhouse meter for people who like to see numbers.

Ps. I do use arc but I just hate it when people start complain about dps doing 15k dps instead of 20?

I was at kc last week, comm kicked this berserker warrior for doing 17k dps.

 

And yes, I make my own lfg quite alot, then some dude comes and start saying why r we running 2 heals and why r we not center tanking on vg.

Needless to say, I block them and kick them. Dont have time to measure epeen ingame.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"naiasonod.9265" said:

> I agree with everything you just said, where agreement is pertinent. I'm certainly not blaming you for the disturbing disparity of skill level between 'higher-end players' and pretty much everyone else. I'm blaming Anet for that, because they left it in the hands of the playerbase to discover it all, pass it all along and teach others. The problem with their intention, noble as it was, is that I think they dramatically failed to account for how players tend not to trust other players in the MMO space.

That's not about trust. That's about general learing curve in _any_ MMORPG. Anet failed, because they created a system that requires players to learn a lot of stuff before they can even _start_ improving, and made the system in such a way, that it is very hard, if not straight out impossible, for the game to teach a lot of this stuff to players. Basically, you can learn on your own, based only on in-game info, only f you are good enough to completely understand and master the system. Few players can do that. If you are not in that category, then you need to rely on data (like build and rotation info) supplied by others, without fully understanding where that stuff comes from. And such data is subject to constant, dynamic changes to the degree where the game itself is unable to supply that information - it needs to come from the group of the few players that do understand how the whole system works.

 

The game can supply an ArcDPS equivalent, sure, but that still ony scratches the surface of the problem, without addressing its core. Besides, it is, in truth, a very complex project, one i don;t think Anet has the resources (or willingness) to implement well - i'd rather expect some abomination on the level of build templates instead.

 

Besides, like i said, it wouldn't help much - it would be dropping a ton of resources to get the game to basically the same situation it already is (or worse, in case Anet's dps meter implementation were to not be as good as Arc).

 

The only thing that would really help would be a complete revamp of the combat system (and i do mean making a completely new system, not just ducttaping and painting over the old one), but at this point it is extremely unlikely to happen.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > It's not private information once you enter a party. Well, it's not yours anyways.

>

> Nothing ever says that entering a party should result in people needing to share information, especially unknowingly. Where did you get this idea? I've played plenty of other games where we didn't have this and we completed all content without an issue. And those were the games that were actually somewhat challenging. Guild wars 2 is the only game I encountered this and it's suppose to be a casual game.

> Arguments like "you can make your own party" apply to both sides easily.

 

The central issue is that a subset of players feels that they are entitled to be in groups with others without their consent and become instantly toxic wherever that is not the case. If it's important to you that players in your group do not use a dps meter, then simply form your own group with that requirement. If someone then joins your group just to troll you with their dps meter, then I'd say you'd be well within your rights to kick them out!

 

Why is the opposite not true? When a player joins a group that expects a minimum standard for contribution from each member and you fall short of that, why is the answer to call them toxic rather than simply seeing your way out of the group? Why are you (general you, not you personally!) entitled to be in that group if other players don't want you there?

 

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

A BIG SOLID NO.

 

I mean seriously? What do the people that says YES want as the next measurement for pug runs? Achievement Points? Titles? Trust? I've been thru a LOT of instances where people keep on yapping about how they are Voice in the Void title holder (VitV), Fractal God/Goddess, etc. etc and that they are indeed correct and doing everything right, and yet when I look on their DPS thru arc they are doing like what? 5K dps? to the point that even an alac ren out dps them? and they are supposedly DPS roles. (and this is not an exaggeration).

 

Would you like the next measurement to be like, "LF Players with 35K+ AP for " just like back in the good old dungeon days? Or should we go and be like, "LF Players with Voice in the Void title for Wing 5!"? Then what if you wipe on said content?, Who are you gonna blame when for some very ODD reason, you didn't meet the dps check cause some of them are using non dps/heal/boon gear and meme traits? kick who's not META? How do you tell if a class is not META without numerical proof? What if they link everything and they are indeed running full meta gear and traits and yet doesn't know how to do the proper rotation? All of these can easily be answered by both combat logs as well as the dps meter in all honesty.

 

The introduction of arc dps and its subsequent approval from Anet made it so that people can judge other people's performance by numerical data. If your goal is to "Play what I want with a build I want" then it's better for you to just host your own group and advertise as such OR you could just avoid those groups who actually ask the people who join them to carry their own weight (DPS, Boons, Heals, etc.). If your goal is just to get carried and hide the fact that you only do auto attacks while wearing a full soldier/sentinel/minstrel or whatever build combination you have that is not meta then they are entitled to kick you out of the group (and god forbid if your only there to stand and look like attacking).

 

If you feel like even 3-5K dps is enough to clear the current contents then I can't say anything towards that other than "at the very least, your having fun doing it even if it would take you a lot of time, just be careful of the enrage timer for raids (some of them at least) and also the mechanics for both fractals and dungeons.".

 

If you feel like you do not agree with me on my points then nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. This is just in fact my own personal opinion on this game that I had played for 8 years now.

 

Note : I know there are A LOT of grammatical errors and I do ask for forgiveness on that considering English is not my first language and definitely not my strong suite.

[StAllerdyce.3941]

People saying Yes to this need to understand that without a way to actually measure useful, in-combat numbers, people will revert to a far more arbitrary metric like AP to gauge what's going on. As has been pointed out previously this has paved the way for builds that may not bench as well in the training area but fare better in real scenarios. The only way I would ever be okay with this being banned is if an official tool existed instead, and seeing how equipment and build templates came out...let's stick with the unofficial tool for now.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> The central issue is that a subset of players feels that they are entitled to be in groups with others without their consent and become instantly toxic wherever that is not the case. If it's important to you that players in your group do not use a dps meter, then simply form your own group with that requirement. If someone then joins your group just to troll you with their dps meter, then I'd say you'd be well within your rights to kick them out!

They feel entitled because they don't want to be told exactly how to play, what build to have, where to stack, which mobs to skip, what limit of dps they need to reach and so on? Really? I got better idea. Maybe some people feel so entitled, that everyone else has to run meta builds and dps meters in order to not waste entitled elititsts's time in a video fucking game. Imagine that.

> Why is the opposite not true? When a player joins a group that expects a minimum standard for contribution from each member and you fall short of that, why is the answer to call them toxic rather than simply seeing your way out of the group? Why are you (general you, not you personally!) entitled to be in that group if other players don't want you there?

You can make your own group and ask for experienced people only. So, it works both ways. I mean, it works in every other game I played and from my experience toxicity in those games were non existent in comparison to "casual" gw2. The only time I'd see toxic people is if I went to pvp.

If this was in game implemented (by developers) dps meter that only worked in raids for example, I wouldn't have an issue. Unfortunately though, many people, once they fall into this mindset, they continue with their idea how game needs to be played into other group content. Take a look at strikes. People requesting 200 and more LI and then they sit in lfg for so long, they could finish three different strikes by the time group fills, if it fills. I was in groups that had bunch of requirements (not LI, but certain classes and roles - which is fine), we took quite some time to "prepare" and then we wiped in Cold war, not by last boss, but by an ice giant or in other instances - by fraenir, even kodans multiple times and such. I even have few "friends" or ex guildies that I met in game who are trying so hard to impress someone with big numbers, they are literally staring into skill bar and arcdps and they forget to dodge most basic aoes and get wrecked. Their dps is good, but they go down and then what's the point of your dps meter if you aren't even there?

I'm pretty sure that a good amount of people who think they are good players are actually not. A lot of people learn to play the game in very specific way, with specific tactics and exploits in every encounter. If you'd watch them play outside of that, you'd see them embarrass themselves very quickly. Your dps, which someone else calculated, tested, wrote rotation and told you exactly how to play and what gear to equip, doesn't make you a good player. Some people act as if equipping certain gear and pushing buttons in a defined pattern is making them a good player and therefore they can police others on their way of playing. Again, only seen this in gw2, which at the same time happens to be the most casual online game I have ever played.

 

[knite.1542]

If the DPS meters hurt some of you guys so much, maybe you should play different games.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

Can anyone explain me how actually those arcdps qqers get offended by "toxic elitists"?

Do they join 200+ LI squads and get kicked for poor dps reason?

(Because noone kicks ppl from "low LI" or training squads for that reason afaik. Only if your dps is lower than healers have)

If so, do they actually have 200 LI to join skilled squads?

If so, how did they manage to farm 200 LI and still remain poor dps casuals?

 

I really dont understand how lazy casuals can even get in touch with skilled squads to get kicked.

What a paradox

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> I mean seriously? What do the people that says YES want as the next measurement for pug runs? Achievement Points? Titles? Trust?

Aren't you reading?

The people who are saying yes firmly beleive that there should be no measurement.

Full stop.

A quick scan of this thread shows that many of people voting "no" represent a very ugly side of this community.

From fear-mongering likening arc to fly hacks, to the public proclamations that EVERYONE who uses it only does so for toxic reasons we see a pattern of lies, prejudice and toxicity. We have a group of this community on display who counter fact with anecdote hyperbole and false rhetoric, who believe that the gathering and use of data is somehow less valid than their personal arbitrary judgement of what is "the right way to play".

 

They don't want any measurement and they are spreading false information, pretending to speak for the developers, and acting as if they are the arbiters of right and wrong in this game to achieve this end.

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > The central issue is that a subset of players feels that they are entitled to be in groups with others without their consent and become instantly toxic wherever that is not the case. If it's important to you that players in your group do not use a dps meter, then simply form your own group with that requirement. If someone then joins your group just to troll you with their dps meter, then I'd say you'd be well within your rights to kick them out!

> They feel entitled because they don't want to be told exactly how to play, what build to have, where to stack, which mobs to skip, what limit of dps they need to reach and so on? Really? I got better idea. Maybe some people feel so entitled, that everyone else has to run meta builds and dps meters in order to not waste entitled elititsts's time in a video kitten game. Imagine that.

> > Why is the opposite not true? When a player joins a group that expects a minimum standard for contribution from each member and you fall short of that, why is the answer to call them toxic rather than simply seeing your way out of the group? Why are you (general you, not you personally!) entitled to be in that group if other players don't want you there?

> You can make your own group and ask for experienced people only. So, it works both ways. I mean, it works in every other game I played and from my experience toxicity in those games were non existent in comparison to "casual" gw2. The only time I'd see toxic people is if I went to pvp.

> If this was in game implemented (by developers) dps meter that only worked in raids for example, I wouldn't have an issue. Unfortunately though, many people, once they fall into this mindset, they continue with their idea how game needs to be played into other group content. Take a look at strikes. People requesting 200 and more LI and then they sit in lfg for so long, they could finish three different strikes by the time group fills, if it fills. I was in groups that had bunch of requirements (not LI, but certain classes and roles - which is fine), we took quite some time to "prepare" and then we wiped in Cold war, not by last boss, but by an ice giant or in other instances - by fraenir, even kodans multiple times and such. I even have few "friends" or ex guildies that I met in game who are trying so hard to impress someone with big numbers, they are literally staring into skill bar and arcdps and they forget to dodge most basic aoes and get wrecked. Their dps is good, but they go down and then what's the point of your dps meter if you aren't even there?

> I'm pretty sure that a good amount of people who think they are good players are actually not. A lot of people learn to play the game in very specific way, with specific tactics and exploits in every encounter. If you'd watch them play outside of that, you'd see them embarrass themselves very quickly. Your dps, which someone else calculated, tested, wrote rotation and told you exactly how to play and what gear to equip, doesn't make you a good player. Some people act as if equipping certain gear and pushing buttons in a defined pattern is making them a good player and therefore they can police others on their way of playing. Again, only seen this in gw2, which at the same time happens to be the most casual online game I have ever played.

>

 

Why do you care? Don't play with those people. People are entitled to make any lfg they want. Just join the ones that say all welcome and fill instantly. People need to stop being so offended by the existence of different playstyles when they're not forced to interact with them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> You can make your own group and ask for experienced people only. So, it works both ways. I mean, it works in every other game I played and from my experience toxicity in those games were non existent in comparison to "casual" gw2. The only time I'd see toxic people is if I went to pvp.

 

And yet you get players in your group that aren't experienced at all, even though you asked for experience. This is the problem. And when the group fails you start pointing fingers at whose fault it was, and the usual suspects ("bad" builds) are kicked first. A DPS meter allows groups to find who was the actual problem in the failed run. Very experienced players can indeed figure out who is the problem without checking logs, but having a log for verification isn't bad. I'm confused as to which are those other mmorpgs you played where you never saw toxic entitled players joining groups asking for experience. Is the casual community of instanced content so good in those games you tried compared to the toxicity they present in this one?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > I mean seriously? What do the people that says YES want as the next measurement for pug runs? Achievement Points? Titles? Trust?

> Aren't you reading?

> The people who are saying yes firmly beleive that there should be no measurement.

> Full stop.

> A quick scan of this thread shows that many of people voting "no" represent a very ugly side of this community.

> From fear-mongering likening arc to fly hacks, to the public proclamations that EVERYONE who uses it only does so for toxic reasons we see a pattern of lies, prejudice and toxicity. We have a group of this community on display who counter fact with anecdote hyperbole and false rhetoric, who believe that the gathering and use of data is somehow less valid than their personal arbitrary judgement of what is "the right way to play".

>

> They don't want any measurement and they are spreading false information, pretending to speak for the developers, and acting as if they are the arbiters of right and wrong in this game to achieve this end.

 

There are two types of toxic players around the instanced-content DPS issue in the game. The second is not likely to admit their approach in this thread.

 

+ Players who don't want to play meta builds or even play an off-meta build well-enough to not test a given group's tolerance _and_ who want to complete instanced content without having to take the (perhaps to them, scary) step-up to forming their own group. After all, if they form an all-welcome group, it's likely to hard fail and then they might have to face recriminations. Also, they might be expected to know mechanics and explain them, and that's (for some) a bridge too far.

+ Players who are slavish in their commitment to meta play. Some of them join groups with "all welcome" posted and then kitten about performance to the people who are doing what meta players want them to do, which is to avoid groups wanting meta players only.

 

Both groups are motivated by the same things. First is impatience. They want to get into a group right kitten now, and don't care what the other players want. Second is entitlement. They believe that the game (and by extension the other players) owe them a group that passes the content. While meters can identify the first group, they don't identify the second with any regularity. Thankfully, the second self-identify by their behavior.