Should dps meters get banned?

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.

> >

> >

> > I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;)

>

> Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)

>

 

I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and disingenuous at this point.

 

It's very clear what they meant. I don't understand how you could misconstrue someone saying "my squad my rules." Including an example where a dps meter would be used as "thanks for saying you don't need a dps meter".

 

You're being willfully ignorant of the context of what they are saying to try and prove a point but it's adding absolutely nothing to this discussion that's dragging on as it's now just you arguing with almost everyone else in circles...

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> You are taking every extreme cases to make your point. Hardcore player dealing 10x more damage. Some people say I'm making things up, but then they come up with crazy ideas and examples. That would mean that one does 2k damage and the other does 20k.

Strike missions with one low performer DPS doing 1.5k dps and others doing 15k is not uncommon or extreme. It happens every other time I run All Welcome Strikes.

One doing 2k and another doing 20 is not unheard of but players capable of 20k don't often roll in "all welcome" Squads.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > > Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.

> > >

> > >

> > > I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;)

> >

> > Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)

> >

>

> I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and disingenuous at this point.

>

> It's very clear what they meant. I don't understand how you could misconstrue someone saying "my squad my rules." Including an example where a dps meter would be used as "thanks for saying you don't need a dps meter".

>

> You're being willfully ignorant of the context of what they are saying to try and prove a point but it's adding absolutely nothing to this discussion that's dragging on as it's now just you arguing with almost everyone else in circles...

 

Yes, it's clear what they meant, and it was nonsense. What do you expect back for that? He argues that he's free to do whatever he pleases with his group, because he makes up rules. Well, obviously. Of course he can do whatever he wants. Nothing stops him. But nothings stop me from not caring about his subjective rules. It wouldn't be a nice and reasonable thing from me to ignore his lfg, same as it wouldn't be a nice or reasonable thing for him to kick me simply because my char looks ugly for example. So, this argument make no sense and has nothing to do with dps meter being a good idea or not. I already said multiple times that I'm not here to argue whether someone has right to make their rules and lfg. I'm here to argue dps meter being harmful tool from my experience. You don't need dps meter to form an lfg and set your rules.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> BDO: NO dps meter.

 

I don't know about the other games but BDO doesn't have a dps meter because

a) it doesn't have instanced group content, in fact there is zero instanced content. Nobody would ever care to use a dps meter in the open world of Guild Wars 2. And even if they did, what could they do? Kick someone from a squad?

b) In BDO there are some cases were you group up with other players and in that case, you use an in-game metric as a dps measure, called Attack Power (AP). When you say "I have 330 AP" you will be taken into groups that require 330 AP. If the group asks for 330 AP and you have 290 AP, be sure that you won't be taken, and if you cheat to enter and the groups finds out (and they will) you will be kicked from the group and sent away (if you stay they'll simply toggle PVP on and kill you)

 

It's very easy to notice the AP value of another player because unlike GW2, in BDO damage works in absolute numbers and not percentages. A player with 290 AP vs monsters that require 290 AP will do exactly 0 damage. So if you don't have the AP the group requires, you will be found in the first fight, regardless of how well you play, which is why dps meters don't matter at all.

 

In a game were you are carried by your gear, and personal responsibility is non-existent (there are no team mechanics even in so called "group areas", you just fight mobs with giant hp pools) dps meters aren't necessary

 

Maybe the other games in your list that don't have dps meters have similar ideas.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > > > Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;)

> > >

> > > Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)

> > >

> >

> > I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and disingenuous at this point.

> >

> > It's very clear what they meant. I don't understand how you could misconstrue someone saying "my squad my rules." Including an example where a dps meter would be used as "thanks for saying you don't need a dps meter".

> >

> > You're being willfully ignorant of the context of what they are saying to try and prove a point but it's adding absolutely nothing to this discussion that's dragging on as it's now just you arguing with almost everyone else in circles...

>

> Yes, it's clear what they meant, and it was nonsense. What do you expect back for that? He argues that he's free to do whatever he pleases with his group, because he makes up rules. Well, obviously. Of course he can do whatever he wants. Nothing stops him. But nothings stop me from not caring about his subjective rules. It wouldn't be a nice and reasonable thing from me to ignore his lfg, same as it wouldn't be a nice or reasonable thing for him to kick me simply because my char looks ugly for example. So, this argument make no sense and has nothing to do with dps meter being a good idea or not. I already said multiple times that I'm not here to argue whether someone has right to make their rules and lfg. I'm here to argue dps meter being harmful tool from my experience. You don't need dps meter to form an lfg and set your rules.

 

You don't want to talk about it, but it's the perfectly valid argument against your insistence that dps meters are a harmful tool. In this case "harmful" equates to a tool which allows others to ascertain your suitability for the group at a glance. That they are able to do that makes it difficult for you to do what you want to do, which is "whatever you want", regardless of what 4-9 other players expect from you. The problem isn't arcdps. The problem is you being entitled to a spot in groups that don't want you there. Apparently your solution is to blind them as best you can so that you can sneak in. No bueno.

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> But nothings stop me from not caring about his subjective rules.

 

that's where you're wrong.

me kicking you from the group will stop you from not caring about my rules ;)

(before you answer: "i will not start caring about your rules because you kick me" - you know what i mean...)

 

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> You don't need dps meter to form an lfg and set your rules.

 

If one of your rules is good dps (not because youre an elitist but because you want a smooth run or simply dont have a lot of time) then yes, you do need a dps meter. otherwise you have to go back to 2013 and start kicking people based on assumptions such as "he's playing class X" or "he only has X AP"

I prefer knowing the source of the problem instead of poking in the dark.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> > So you are changing your stance to DPS meters should not be allowed unless it's for raids/challenging content. Sure, that would be an option. Hard to enforce unless Arenanet introduced their own damage meter, hopefully with as many or better functions than ARCDPS.

> I'm not changing my stance. This was always my stance, it was mentioned probably like three pages ago if it wasn't maybe deleted by now. And correction: not challenging content, only raids, because it has a strict timer and you actually need good dps, different roles and good organization. No doubt, raids are usually the absolute end game or highest challenging content of any game that has them, so people know what to expect.

> > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

>

>

> > Meanwhile, even at my level I do regular checks of damage logs to see how fights went post fight. Damage is most often the least of my interestes, and I rather focus on combat flow, positioning, boons as well as rotations both to understand why someone might have outperformed me or why something went wrong.

> That's fine. Do you need to see entire group damage for that?

>

 

No, so is this only about visibility of the damage? Are you actually aware which other information is available via arc and dps logs currently? I personally disagree with the name damage meter even, because it completely misrepresents what information is availbale and useful. Again, damage is the least interesting among the different pages of data in a log.

 

 

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Other games have damage meters. Literally all of them. Some even have other addons which do nearly all the mechanics for them. Deadly Boss Mods is quit popular in WoW.

> Literally every single one? You sure?

> I haven't played every mmo obviously, but from what I've read and from what I've been told from friends who did play them (if I make a mistake, feel free to correct me):

>

> FFXIV didn't use one for ages and they were doing fine. They later caved in and allowed one, but it's supposedly not allowed to talk about dps meter in public chat.

> Blade and Soul: Has personal dps meter (which I'm fine with and wouldn't mind in gw2). Party dps meter is allowed only in raids and hardmode dungeons.

> BDO: NO dps meter.

> SWTOR: No dps meter. You can use some third party tool to pull out combat log for your own numbers.

> Archeage: No dps meter. Only personal damage logs.

>

> So, either they don't have dps meter or many didn't have them for yeaaaars and did completely fine without them.

>

 

So, in short: most games with challenging content have dps meters by now. In FF14 case it goes even so far that the tool is allowed, while explicitly disallowing talk in game about it. Clearly indicating that the developers see value in the tool but want to not disallow it.

 

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > We had the time before damage meters in this game. I like to refer to that time as the: "bring 10k AP, no necro or ranger" times. Or also occasionally the:"4 warriors 1 mesmer" times. Thanks, I wouldn't want to go back to that.

> I don't know why people thing is a good argument. That's like saying guns are not a problem, because people killed each other without them in the past. Or racism is not a problem, because people always found a way to discriminate.

> Besides, you are going back into times when dungeons were pretty much the only end game content worth repeating and was also the only somewhat challenging content. All the elitists where there, so of course you would often see these kind of lfg. Doesn't mean you couldn't find regular lfgs or that you couldn't make your own group.

>

 

I am not the one arguing that ignorance is bliss. I am the one arguing that objective data aka information is valuable. It prevents ignorance. Ignorance which was present in this game in exactly the way where some individuals abuse damage neters to be toxic. This is not some fantasy or imaginary situation. It was a widespread problem for certain classes and players. On not even that challenging content where the difference in rewards was mostly in the timenit took to get them.

 

If you honestly believe that going back to such an ignorant state is in this games best interest, with content which actually does have fail states, I can't help you.

[knite.1542]

Looks like the nos are gonna take it.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"knite.1542" said:

> Looks like the nos are gonna take it.

 

Pretty much any poll on the forum is invalid as none of them will ever come close to a proper population sample.

[knite.1542]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"knite.1542" said:

> > Looks like the nos are gonna take it.

>

> Pretty much any poll on the forum is invalid as none of them will ever come close to a proper population sample.

 

Are you implying that there are more than 350 people that play the game?

[Yoshioka.4967]

I never liked anyone who wants to force others to play at Meta, however, I am totally in favor of having tools to help us know if you are doing what you set out to do when you joined the group.

 

I don't care that you play with what you like as long as you do your part.

 

And remember, you can always create your own group with your own rules.

[Cuks.8241]

By my experience, if anyone is toxic in this game are the people that don't use ArcDps and have no clue about performance and just bash others based on something random. I've actually never seen anyone flamed for doing low dps but I've seen people flame others for not having the right build even though one look at the ArcDps would reveal that the flamer is actually being carried and the guy with the off build is doing just fine.

Also many people in this thread clearly don't even play instanced content and are just trolling or have some sort of personal grudge against whatever. Or maybe the US experience is much different than EU.

And I've never ever seen anyone talking dps in open world.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>

> > Maybe the other games in your list that don't have dps meters have similar ideas.

>

> I've seen games with such systems. The purpose of that system is to give people idea what level/tier content they are dealing with. It's like badges or ranks or threat system in other games (I've seen that mostly in fps games), that gives you an idea of what kind of opponent you are going against. In some cases, you can't even hurt opponent if you are like 10 levels below them or have gear rating below required or something like that. In the most simplified version, this is like zones or dungeons in gw2 having requirement/suggested level. But, otherwise, I agree with you, BDO is not the best example, it lacks pve content.

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

>

> > If one of your rules is good dps (not because youre an elitist but because you want a smooth run or simply dont have a lot of time) then yes, you do need a dps meter. otherwise you have to go back to 2013 and start kicking people based on assumptions such as "he's playing class X" or "he only has X AP"

> > I prefer knowing the source of the problem instead of poking in the dark.

> I've played for years with experienced people who cleared instances with ease, before dps meter was a thing. If you have problem finding these people in a game where dps meter and meta builds are shoved down every players throat, then I don't know what you are doing.

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> > So, in short: most games with challenging content have dps meters by now. In FF14 case it goes even so far that the tool is allowed, while explicitly disallowing talk in game about it. Clearly indicating that the developers see value in the tool but want to not disallow it.

> So, in short, you are making kitten up. You quite clearly said that LITERALLY every game has dps meter, when it's not true. And then you just assume that those who have it are probably the ones with challenging content. Please, don't be silly. You are comparing gw2 (one of the most casual mmos in existence to other mmos). And those that don't have dps meter have raids. So, yes, they have challenging content.

>

 

I fail to see how even you mentioning: how most games even on your list, having dps meters, is me making things up. You made that list, and on that list, the vast majority of games have dps meters. You made that list, not me. Some light research on the subject matter though in games you listed without dos meters shows they have issues with judging player performance.

 

So even the games without dps meter are not necessarily benefitting from the lack of such a tool, which you have yet to prove in the first place.

 

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > I am not the one arguing that ignorance is bliss. I am the one arguing that objective data aka information is valuable. It prevents ignorance. Ignorance which was present in this game in exactly the way where some individuals abuse damage neters to be toxic. This is not some fantasy or imaginary situation. It was a widespread problem for certain classes and players. On not even that challenging content where the difference in rewards was mostly in the timenit took to get them.

> Not my problem if you are scared of getting a below average dude in pug and being afraid he'll get rewarded for "your work". If efficiency is that important to you in a video game, in the content that people with all blue gear could complete if they knew mechanics, in a group with complete strangers that just want to have some fun, then don't blame me, you are the picky one.

>

>

 

Again, it's also not my problem. That does not mean it is not a problem for the player base, or has been in the past. I made references to past situations in this game and drawing conclusions from them.

 

If players want to be picky, and there has always been players being picky even in this game, even before raids, even before dps meters, then players will be picky. Closing ones eyes to this reality might be fun, but it is just that: willful ignorance. Removing dps meters is not going to change those players.

 

Glad you finally admitted though how dps meters are benefitting this game: they allow for similar minded players to find each other, thereby reducing friction. Which only arises when players of different approach get thrown together in the first place most often.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>

> > Maybe the other games in your list that don't have dps meters have similar ideas.

>

> I've seen games with such systems. The purpose of that system is to give people idea what level/tier content they are dealing with. It's like badges or ranks or threat system in other games (I've seen that mostly in fps games), that gives you an idea of what kind of opponent you are going against. In some cases, you can't even hurt opponent if you are like 10 levels below them or have gear rating below required or something like that. In the most simplified version, this is like zones or dungeons in gw2 having requirement/suggested level. But, otherwise, I agree with you, BDO is not the best example, it lacks pve content.

 

Well yes I was simply pointing out that the argument "other games don't have dps meters so why should this one" doesn't stand very well because the games without them, either place a huge emphasis on gear (like a gear score or similar), lack any meaningful instanced group content where a dps meter would actually be used or the difference between performing good rotations and bad ones isn't gigantic. If the game itself bars players from completing content through in-game performance metrics, then dps meters aren't required, the game itself does the job of separating players between gear levels. Similar to how agony on boss encounters used to work in GW2 (although players found way to circumvent that as well)

 

In Guild Wars 2 you can do almost all content while naked, it's purely about the individual's skill, sure gear helps, but it's not absolutely essential to succeed. A player with a high "gear score" isn't going to perform better than a player with a low "gear score", in GW2 terms, a player in white gear can outperform a player in full Ascended. Which is why a simple number (like AP in BDO, or gear score in SWTOR/WOW) cannot be used to judge a player's performance. I can go to BDO and ask for "AP 280+" players only for a Mirumok run, and I'm guaranteed to get exactly what I want, because only players with AP above 280 can even -play- the content. What's my choice in Guild Wars 2?

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

 

> Well yes I was simply pointing out that the argument "other games don't have dps meters so why should this one" doesn't stand very well because the games without them, either place a huge emphasis on gear (like a gear score or similar), lack any meaningful instanced group content where a dps meter would actually be used or the difference between performing good rotations and bad ones isn't gigantic.

 

I agree completely.

 

Also, a note to all in the thread about SWTOR: **SWTOR allows for other players to straight inspect your gear**. All it takes is right-click > inspect gear, so DPS meters are totally unnecessary for gatekeeping purposes. As for the game being "fine" without dps meters... if you're only talking about pugging story mode raids, sure. For anything Hard (I think it's called Veteran now) or Nightmare Mode, where the BiS gear drops, very few players are ever going to reach the performance levels required for those without the use of the third-party dps meter. There is also literally 0 build diversity; there are 3 sort of sub-specialties available to every class, and once you pick one of those, the game automatically fills out the vast majority of your traits for you. The few that you _do_ get to choose are hardly a choice at all, given your sub-specialty. You're pretty hard-cornered into doing very specific things.

 

As intrusive as gear inspections might feel for GW2 players, I'd still prefer that kind of objective observation over the bad old days of kicking based on class or AP alone. The data from Arc frees us from that old regime, and I will never support anything that pushes back in that direction.

 

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

 

 

> I fail to see how even you mentioning: how most games even on your list, having dps meters, is me making things up. You made that list, and on that list, the vast majority of games have dps meters. You made that list, not me. Some light research on the subject matter though in games you listed without dos meters shows they have issues with judging player performance.

I see you joined the "making shit up and lying" club. Therefore this is my last response to you. Feel free to join one of the dudes above that keeps replying to me, while I don't read anything he says, because he also decided to lie to make his point.

You said every single game has dps meter, which is not the case. Any I only mentioned few popular games. There are tons of other games around and they don't all have dps meter (you didn't even said mmos, just game in general and there are even plenty of mmofps games that have group content including raids and don't have dps meter. I proved you wrong and now you are trying to save your ass by playing it off as I'm not getting it or something. Your cherry picked research that they have problems judging performance doesn't really says much. You can find plenty of critics on each game. Just take a look at all "gw2 is dead" topics that we had so far. Of course you can find topic like that, because in each game, there are people who want to monitor others, so they make such topics.

 

> So even the games without dps meter are not necessarily benefitting from the lack of such a tool, which you have yet to prove in the first place.

You can't possibly know that. Just because you found a topic or two of people asking for dps meter so they could judge their performance, doesn't mean it's needed or that it would indeed help. Speculation is best you can do.

I certainly don't see dps meter helping in case of gw2. From my take it actually encouraged many to look at their damage and thinking they learned how to play the game. Which is actually being ignorant as you mentioned it. Thinking you know how to play because you can pull of a rotation.

> If players want to be picky, and there has always been players being picky even in this game, even before raids, even before dps meters, then players will be picky. Closing ones eyes to this reality might be fun, but it is just that: willful ignorance. Removing dps meters is not going to change those players.

We went through this multiple times already. Doesn't have anything to do with dps meter. Just because people are jerks, doesn't mean you should give them even more tools and encourage them to be even bigger jerks.

> Glad you finally admitted though how dps meters are benefitting this game: they allow for similar minded players to find each other, thereby reducing friction. Which only arises when players of different approach get thrown together in the first place most often.

Similar minded players can play together without dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

No.

 

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> I'd much rather get kicked from groups based on actual underperformances of mine than having it based on something as silly as my amount of AP (which happened in the good old dungeon days)

> People will judge and kick you no matter the tools avaible to them and others will continue to prefer safe runs to not waste their time even without Arc.

 

Being able to see a physical reflection of how much work I'm putting in is much less nebulous than "Ping Gear" "Ping Build" "AP Check" "Currency Check".

If someone wants to rate you based on the above things, what they're really saying is they don't want to waste time potentially carrying you through the content. Making it a breach of ToS to evaluate whether they want to do a run with you based on what IMO is the easiest factor to change/adjust will not suddenly make these people throw up their hands and go "Oh, guess we shouldn't evaluate based on any metric then."

[Krzysztof.5973]

> @"serialkicker.5274"

> Similar minded players can play together without dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.

> Similar minded players can play together with dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.

I just want to know why is it that for You, only one of those statements is right?

[Klypto.1703]

Make it no longer an issue and just do the inevitable and just ban them.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > If someone makes or joins a group where the stated preference is "all welcome" or even "DPS meters not welcome," then what stops people from enforcing their preferences in that group?

> >

> > If someone joins a group with stated preferences which would lead one to believe that high performance is the group's goal, why should that group not enforce their preferences any more than the other group?

 

> This "you can make your own group" argument is getting old, repetitive and silly.

 

Except the excerpt you quoted is not a "make your own group argument." It's a "sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" argument.

 

> It goes for both sides. I'm not arguing they can't have requirements and kick people from group for not following them. I'm arguing that having these rules or mindset in the first place is just unfortunate and quite silly. And using third party software to enforce those rules is just... taking things too seriously in a video game.

 

You are welcome to that opinion. What it looks like from the other side of the discussion is that you think that it's OK for players who want to do instanced content with their idiosyncratic build to be allowed to join any group they want to, essentially playing they want. However, you don't think people who want a specific group composition ought to play the game the way they want to.

 

> I think it badly affects the community. I find it sad that people don't have any respect and faith in their fellow players in community to be able to contribute on their own.

 

There is a lot more willingness to accept off-meta builds now than there was before meters. Is there still a minimum standard (one that is likely to be lower for some groups than others)? Yep.

 

> I find it sad that efficiency and numbers are the top priority for many and that they would deny others from joining the fun, just because they don't wish push buttons in same pattern over and over again or carry a weapon that is currently considered the best for their class.

 

This is where the "They can make their own group" argument would come in. Sounds like you believe that -- no matter how much or how little time people have to play, they should accept anyone, even if that person playing the way s/he wants makes it harder for them to play the way they want. The truth is that players are not being denied the opportunity to complete content, though they may be being denied the opportunity to put in no effort to get into a group beyond opening the LFG and clicking on the first group that catches their eye.

 

> Imagine if we treated every entertainment that way. Trying to play some casual football with your friends and they'd tell you "hey, until you get these sweet kitten sneakers and score at least 3 goals, you aren't playing with us, boy". Heck, even in competitive scene, people like to experiment and beat opponents with techniques and tactics that haven't been done before.

 

Is this game a casual kick-around in the park for everyone, or do some players enjoy a level of play that is closer to the lower tiers of amateur club football. How many not-in-top-condition casual footballers are going to make such a team? Is the club team wrong for not taking anyone? Or, are they allowed to set standards. Or since you used the football analogy in the first place, are video gamers not allowed to the their game seriously?

 

> People get easily influenced and fall into mindset that most people are following. One day I play with this chill guildie, we do some smooth and fun runs, company is good and then... two weeks later all he can talk about is rotation and how much dps he can pull. Comes to the point where he start questioning my choice of weapons, because they are not current meta. It's just silly and sad. And I can still outdps him and have a lot more knowledge on mechanics, but that doesn't matter, because I won't be able to end up in parties with those people (well if it's guildie he'll make an exception usually out of politnes) ...

 

Maybe your guild member can see that you are "out-dpsing him" because he is running a meter. Maybe it's not just politeness.

 

> because apparently they all think if you are not following meta or if you don't use dps meter to monitor yourself, you don't care about your performance and you are bad player.

 

Are there such people? Sure. Would banning meters stop them from: having standards; picking less appropriate criteria to base their judgment on; talking down to people they perceive as not in their in-crowd; and enforcing their will in their groups? Nope.

 

There is a very appropriate aphorism that sums my argument up. Correlation is not causation. Right now, DPS is the reason cited for the behaviors you dislike. Right now, meters come up because they allow dps numbers to be easily accessed. Ban meters and DPS will still be the reason cited for those behaviors, except that what's pointed to will be build, profession and even hinkier stuff like AP.

 

Sounds like you want more inclusiveness across the board, and want to blame the meter that this is not the case.

 

The real culprit, though, is ANet. If you want more inclusiveness, the best way to get this would be for ANet to bring up the under-performing builds, weapons, etc. so that there is not a 1000% difference between top-tier performance and bottom-tier.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274"

> > Similar minded players can play together without dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.

> > Similar minded players can play together with dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.

> I just want to know why is it that for You, only one of those statements is right?

 

Because one has unnecessary, option component to it, that mostly just adds negative aspect to it in a form that is presented atm. If it was raid only or personal meter only, there would be no issue.

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

 

> Except the excerpt you quoted is not a "make your own group argument." It's a "sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" argument.

Well, it is basically. It boils down to group being free to make whatever rules they want and enforce them. And I never disagreed with that.

> > It goes for both sides. I'm not arguing they can't have requirements and kick people from group for not following them. I'm arguing that having these rules or mindset in the first place is just unfortunate and quite silly. And using third party software to enforce those rules is just... taking things too seriously in a video game.

>

> You are welcome to that opinion. What it looks like from the other side of the discussion is that you think that it's OK for players who want to do instanced content with their idiosyncratic build to be allowed to join any group they want to, essentially playing they want. However, you don't think people who want a specific group composition ought to play the game the way they want to.

I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Everyone can play the way they want, they just don't need dps meter to spy on others in order to do it. You are joining PUG - PUBLIC GROUP. If you are afraid that you might get a less than impressive player here and there, then get a guild or friends that you know can fulfill those needs. No need to police public groups that just look to complete the instance.

>There is a lot more willingness to accept off-meta builds now than there was before meters. Is there still a minimum standard (one that is likely to be lower for some groups than others)? Yep.

You can't prove this is due to dps meter. It could be any number of factors. You are trying to compare time when dungeons were the only end game content and highest challenging one, to a time, when people had extra years to try new stuff out of boredom, got elite specs which opened up many new builds, got many, many more gear stat combinations, complete trait rework, more runes and sigils, more usable weapons for each class, different instanced content (same build won't work with same efficiency in dungeons and in raids), the longer the game is going, the bigger is chance even meta boys will want to try something fresh, new class, even if it's not considered in "top" and realize it's not actually that bad, maybe a lot of hardcore elitists quit the game before expansions came for being too casual etc. There are many factors and also possible factors that contributed to that.

Besides meta is still going very strong and people are still looking for certain builds and roles( bs, qhf, hfb, qchrono etc), just as before, it's just more variety now, due to all the factors. And lastly, this is not even about meta. Like I said, people can make any lfg they want and if they feel they need bs warrior, then get it. Not an issue. I'm just tired of dps meter being so spread out and almost high on priority list as meta builds themselves, so much that I regularly encounter them even in groups with not requirement or groups that actually say "all welcome". People pretend that I'm joining some groups that I'm not suppose to and then complain I was kicked or some shit like that. I can read, thank you very much. And I don't join groups I don't meet requirements for. Doesn't mean I don't meet with idiots who use dps meter to trashtalk, complain, point fingers and even kick others for stupid reasons in group with no requirements And it doesn't mean that I don't see people who are still lacking basic knowledge of the game using dps meter and thinking if they reach that magical number, they are now a good player. It has come this far, that I got convinced that dps meter is actually detrimental to the community.

 

> This is where the "They can make their own group" argument would come in. Sounds like you believe that -- no matter how much or how little time people have to play..

If you don't have time to play, you have chosen wrong game or you have chosen wrong content in the game. If you insist on playing through those instances, despite having little time, then get a guild for it, if you are afraid that lfg with requirements is not enough. Trying to police others on damage, just because you don't have time... well, that's just silly.

 

> Is the club team wrong for not taking anyone? Or, are they allowed to set standards.

No they are not wrong, same as guilds are not wrong to take anyone. They would be wrong to go into a public match and then not just expect that random people play by the rules of a club/guild, but they even go so far to pull out a analysis tool that will determine if they are really meeting those expectation. That would be silly.

 

> Are there such people? Sure. Would banning meters stop them from: having standards; picking less appropriate criteria to base their judgment on; talking down to people they perceive as not in their in-crowd; and enforcing their will in their groups? Nope.

There are people who will kill, steal, exploit, cheat and thousand other things, whether we have rules and laws or not. So might as well get rid of the rules and laws to make it easier for them, right?

 

> The real culprit, though, is ANet. If you want more inclusiveness, the best way to get this would be for ANet to bring up the under-performing builds, weapons, etc. so that there is not a 1000% difference between top-tier performance and bottom-tier.

I highly doubt that. The best they could do is forbid third party tools. Balancing is important of course, but wouldn't make much difference in this case. You don't need your class or build to be on top ten list on snowcrows in order for you to complete the content or be a contribution to your team. There is enough (I'll never say no to more obviously) build diversity in game right now. People just stick to the best and there will always be the best, no matter how you balance it. If you play off meta build, it doesn't mean you'll do 10x less damage or something crazy like that. So, it's not about builds not being super close in efficiency or damage. It's about people learning how to play. And to do that, you definitely don't party dps meter.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece and this discussion/topic is going nowhere really. No point in talking in circles, so I'm done here. Feel free to respond to this post if you need, Indigo. I won't respond, but I will read it out of respect for your polite manners, unlike some who decided to start making things up and lie to make their points. Take care.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

>... this discussion/topic is going nowhere really.

Just like all of the other previous DPS meter threads. I wish people would just read what's already been said instead of starting new threads that don't add anything new to the discussion/topic.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> >There is a lot more willingness to accept off-meta builds now than there was before meters. Is there still a minimum standard (one that is likely to be lower for some groups than others)? Yep.

> You can't prove this is due to dps meter. It could be any number of factors.

 

You are making some assumptions here but you either can't prove that they are rights.

 

> You are trying to compare time when dungeons were the only end game content and highest challenging one, to a time, when people had extra years to try new stuff out of boredom, got elite specs which opened up many new builds, got many, many more gear stat combinations, complete trait rework, more runes and sigils, more usable weapons for each class, different instanced content (same build won't work with same efficiency in dungeons and in raids),

 

Yep meta changes with updates but there is no relation with willingness to accept off-meta builds or not. And yes dungeons meta can be (and generally are) different from raids meta and franctals meta.

 

> the longer the game is going, the bigger is chance even meta boys will want to try something fresh, new class,

 

Depends a lot on ppl mindset, some will stick to one character all the time (their only main), some will try all class.

 

> There are many factors and also possible factors that contributed to that.

 

Sure severals factors are possible, but it also doesn't invalidate that meter can be one of them.

 

> > The real culprit, though, is ANet. If you want more inclusiveness, the best way to get this would be for ANet to bring up the under-performing builds, weapons, etc. so that there is not a 1000% difference between top-tier performance and bottom-tier.

> People just stick to the best and there will always be the best, no matter how you balance it. If you play off meta build, it doesn't mean you'll do 10x less damage or something crazy like that. So, it's not about builds not being super close in efficiency or damage.

 

I think @""IndigoSundown.5419" want to say here is not "change" the best build but limit the freedom of builds to avoid some useless builds to exist, builds that fail to all like no tankyness, no support, no damage (it is totally possible to build that in gw2).

 

And off-meta builds is too vague. It can be a build that :

- just change one trait

- add some vitality (replace berserker gear by marauder for example)

=> those won't do 10x less damage obviously

- use a condi oriented gear with pure power oriented traits

=> it will lose a lot of damage

- use random gears obtained by loot (white, blue, green, gold usually) without changing the basic runes and sigil, choose random traits and skills based on whatever

=> meh, you see what i mean

 

So unfortunately, it is totally possible to have a 10x gap on damage (and even more), like it's possible that healers don't heal or support don't give boons (in others MMO, you are much more limited in gears stats and builds per class so you can't really mess up even if you want to).

 

And that's totally fine for most content (open world and living story) cause it's easy enough to work either way. In harder instanced content it can be a issue cause the game doesn't prepare ppl well (when it do something) for this.

 

> It's about people learning how to play. And to do that, you definitely don't party dps meter.

 

I agree. DPS meter become useful for challenged contents not for open world stuff. But even, how can people learn how to play? GW2 fail a lot on tutorials.

 

> Anyway, I've said my piece and this discussion/topic is going nowhere really. No point in talking in circles, so I'm done here. Feel free to respond to this post if you need, Indigo. I won't respond, but I will read it out of respect for your polite manners, unlike some who decided to start making things up and lie to make their points. Take care.

 

I agree that it's turn in circle (like most threads on forum). bb

[skarpak.8594]

the only real question on this topic is: **why should a lot of people take a drawback by not being able to use a helpful tool (especially dps.report) anymore, when you can deal with the few which are jerks, by kicking and blocking them?**

 

...you don't ban kitchen knives because of household stabbings because you still want to be able to cut your veggies.

 

we can deal with jerks just fine within the game. if you can't deal with a jerk or are highly offended by someone criticising what you are doing in a team game because he can see your performance, that is really not our problem. deal with it yourself without trying to make the situation worse for a whole lot of others. thanks.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can _also_ be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself.

> That's a fair point about cheats, I agree. It wasn't the best analogy from me, but argument would stay the same. If you say that only factor that contributes to the problem is people and tool has nothing to do with it, like some suggested, than we have a problem. Because with that logic, we could allow any kind of tool and if it's being misused, we could just point finger at people and say "well, talk to them".

That's basically what happens. The tools that are forbidden are ones whose function is to break one or more rules/limitations of the game, giving a player unfair advantage. Of course, what constitutes "unfair advantage" is not clearly defined (and intentionally so - Anet doesn't want some rules' lawyers trying to find a loophole), but we do know (because Anet clearly said so), that knowing your own, and your teammates dps is not considered to be "unfair".

The tools that aren't made to break those rules are generally considered to be okay (even if Anet is usually unwilling to give their official stamp of approval). Yes, players using those tools can break some other rules of the game, but it's not the tool that is at fault there - the tool did nothing wrong.

 

> There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it.

>

> And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good.

If you are against not dps meters specifically, but _all_ third party tools , i do understand your point of view. I still disagree, because i just don't see that "more harm than good" existence of tools like ArcDPS or Taco you think cause.As for Arc, i still remember how the game was before dps meters, and so i can honestly said, that their introduction changed the game for the better, at least in the more demanding types of content, where they are mostly used. I still wouldn't really want them to be too popular, because, frankly, there's exactly zero need for them in open world (where most players are) as it is now, but i do think that it's very good we have such an option available.

Sure, there are a lot of negative consequences of the knowledge of meta builds spreading around, but i don't contribute those to DPS meters, but to content that brought that kind of playstyle more front and forward (so, Raids, and the changes in Fractals). People are now more aware of the massive dps gaps this game creates, but those gaps were always there, and most people were just completely ignorant about it.

 

> I see people using it to insult others.

People that want to insult others will always find a reason. They are not insulting others because they're using Arc. They do so, because that's the kind of people they are.

 

> I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance.

Depending on situation that may be warranted or not. For example, in some raid encounters bad enough players can easily be a _negative_ contribution. The whole team finishing the instance does not mean that single player contributed anything - it can also mean that the rest of the group was good enough to do this succesfully _despite_ the said player being an overall hindrance. And it's not limited to raids - the same, due to existence of event scaling, is true in Open World as well. For a player to contribute there they must do at least enough dps to overcome hp increase the OW boss gets due to them being there. And that's only HP which is not the only thing that scaling increases.

There's a reason why a lot of world bosses can be killed in less than a minute with a very small, but competent group, when adding a whole zerg of average OW casuals can extend the kill time by an order of magnitude. How much do you think those players contributed, if their addition can increase kill time ten times or more? It must have been a lot, right?

So, in reality, an average player often is a negative contribution to everything even in content where it matters the least.

 

> I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.

It's clear from their description, that those players you mention don't really understand their class, nor are they highly skilled. As such, they would have had problems in any content requiring better class understanding and skill anyway, DPS meter or not.

 

>

> I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.

That, again, is not caused by dps meters. It's caused by this game having a much greater dps disparity between top, average and bottom than in any other game i played. You don't see those problems in other games as often as in GW2, because, compared to GW2, a much greater percentage of efficiency is dependent on gear (and, consequently, a lot less is dependent on skill). In a game where most of your efficiency comes from having the right iLvl, average players are much closer to the top ones. Which, as i have already mentioned, has nothing to do with existence of dps meters. (although i'm quite sure that a lot of those games do have their meters as well, and you've just not notice them - as far as i know, most top MMORPGs do have meters, and i say "most" only because i haven't played all of them).

 

> But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.

What is harmful to the community is not the dps meter. It's the fact that the most casual MMORPG game on the market was designed in a way thay would have the most sense in a game aimed at a niche consisting of small number of hardcore, skilled players. _That_ is the root of the problem (or at east one of the biggest reasons behind it). Dps meters existence, and the whole controversy around them are not a cause for anything - they are merely one of (many) consequences of much deeper systemic issues with the game.