Liewec.2896 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 hammer zerker renegade! :smiley: big damage, spam interrupts, and the nifty block from hammer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberkingkong.8041 Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"uberkingkong.8041" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > > > > @stallic is right, scepter ele. it has reflects and ranged non projectiles. yall are trippin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not like Soulbeast has access to Unblockable, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If LoS is not an option, Soulbeast will always win a straight up pew-pew fight, with probably Berserker in a close 2nd. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, nothing to block line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, if a necro sends in all of his pets or mesmer puts up clones, etc. Is that thing gonna land still? > > > > > > If ranger range CC you, is it gonna land? > > > > > > If mesmer CC lock you from range is it gonna land? > > > > > > If thief decides to go invisible while your charging it, is it gonna land? > > > > > > If elementalist decides to turn you into dust in 3 seconds, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would guardian even be good at this type of fight? Who you think would be worst at ranged to ranged fights? > > > > > > Engineer? > > > > > > Seems like Fresh Air elementalist is best unless people want to discuss why something else is better. > > > > > > I mean going invis and being a deadeye I think is pretty deadly, but who knows, maybe once they not invis elementalist turn them into dust. > > > > > > > > > > > > You use whatever you have to use, to win the ranged fight. Its not just a stand still fight. Its a use what you have and who has the best stuff to use wins. > > > > > What they're forgetting about is unblockable effects. > > > > > > > > It doesn't pan out that way vs. Ele or really vs. anything at this point. There are reasons why the better Ranger players out there right now are not running unblockables unless it's the free one from lesser call of wild in marks. > > > > > > > > Too many things were changed on Ranger at this point. The only way you can have unblockables now is by directly bringing a Warhorn which makes you sacrifice Great Sword to do it, which is bad, and that Warhorn 5 only makes the pet unblockable, which means the Ranger needs to be a Soulbeast for it work on the Longbow. Then of course a Ranger could bring Signet of Hunt for unblockable, which isn't worth the lose of other utilities that are quintessential in allowing a Ranger build to function. The only other way to get unblockable is to run Marks for the free lesser call of the wild, which.. only has 2 stack intensity https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild#WvW.2CPvP so even while using this, it can't allow a full Rapid Fire to get through to an Ele. At best you're looking at landing a couple hard hitting autos. But I cannot stress enough that Warhorn sucks on Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast. In no way is running Warhorn an option over Greatsword in our current patching. Even if it were to 1v1 a Fresh Air Ele, the gap closing or disengaging evade on GS3 and the GS4 block while walking into CC is just in every way better for cycling when the LB cool downs are recharging. And Signet of the Hunt just isn't worth taking. It's only a 10 stack of intensity, which is 1 Rapid Fire that gets through, on a 40s CD for the signet. And that's hoping the Ele doesn't dodge roll through the Rapid Fire right. The options for unblockables are a huge huge gamble, is what the problem is. The chances that the unblockable will do its work and allow you to land damage, is a lot lower than the chances that the opponent will dodge roll or LOS or pull something that makes you waste your unblockable CD, which chances of this are high against better opponents. But hard defensive utilities always work, like Protect Me, Sig Of Stone, Light Ref, and all on shorter CDs to boot. > > > > > > > > But yeah, things have changed too much. The new intensity stack system for unblockable puts really big limitations on the Ranger's ability to say: "land a LB5 while also landing Rapid Fire" which is the kind of kill combo you need to land to down something right. But with all these skills having: "lesser call 2 stacks" "normal call 3 stacks" "sig of hunt 10 stacks on 40s cd" less than half of your burst will make it through. These unblockable abilities are only practical for landing Maul and pet F2s at this point. > > > > > > That's all well and good. > > > > > > But we're not talking about a realistic in-game scenario, we're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, LoS, +1s etc are all not considered. > > > > So am I. Reread my first post in here. > > > > > > > > And in this scenario an ideal ranged build wouldn't need to worry about picking GS to survive. It could take Warhorn, Signet of the Hunt, etc etc. So all this talk about "not worth taking in a real game" is kinda missing the point. > > > > It needs GS for the evade, the block, and the mobility to get places quickly like LOS or out of range of the Fresh Air channeling, which is a very large portion of being able to beat the Fresh Air Ele. The Sword leaps suck and they'll suck even more if you try to use a Warhorn and don't have a block to pair with your evade while defensing and allowing LB to come off CDs. You're a sitting duck for 9s vs. that channel that can't be entirely avoided without streaming dodge > evade > block, if you try to bring Warhorn. Using an Axe won't be enough pressure to cull off the Ele. He'll get aggressive and chase. The GS is the only way to survive the large DPS without entirely disengaging from the fight. Also remember that while using things like LB5 and LB2, the Ranger has to stand still and allow animations to finish. The Ele just fires back while having invulns and reflects. The Ele just counters the Ranger in ranged play man. > > > > But that's what I was trying to point out is that the stack intensity is too low on those skills for ranged LB ranged play. If you want to talk about only using ranged and never melee, 2 stacks from lesser & 3 stacks from normal & 10 stacks from sig is still not enough stacks combined to allow a full LB5 + LB2 burst to chain together and finish and actually land kill damage against the Ele. You will not be beating the Ele by tagging it with autos alone. And g'luck with that when you're missing the evade & block off GS and sacked a defensive utility for Sig 40s CD ^^ > > > > Anyway, w/e. > > > > > > "We're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, **LoS**, +1s etc are all not considered" > > "So am I" > > "It needs GS for the..... mobility to get places quickly like **LoS**" > > I really don't think you've understood the question being asked here. You're in an completely open, flat area, no cover. You can strafe and dodge, but you can't close to melee range, nor can you disengage out of range. You don't need GS to survive, because you can simply burn the Ele down within 3 seconds, since it can't run for cover in this scenario, and its projectile-denials are made redundant by unblockables. > > Also, what invulns does Ele have that it can use while casting? Did you perhaps miss the Feb update to Obsidian Flesh? > > All of that said, I'm now thinking that actually Berserker beats out Soulbeast here. Pop all signets + Defiant Stance, plus Balanced Stance, and Volley will out-DPS Rapid-Fire. And again, all of this is unblockable, so Ele, DE, DH, Rev, are all out-of-luck. > One thing you not considering is somebody CCing you. Sounds good on paper, but once you get CC'ed, WHATCHA GONNA DO NOW? Sounds good on paper, but once they use an ability that makes them invisible, like ranger longbow 3...... WHATCHA GONNA DO NOW??? Ooops your super attack is charging up. Woops they went stealth. They charging their SUPER attack, yet you can't see it because they stealth. WCHATCHA GONNA DO NOW? You charging your super attack and some CLONE got in the way, WHATCHA do now? You charging your super attack and some MINION got in the way, WHATCHA DO NOW??? You charging your super attack and some PET got in the way... WHATCHA DO NOW??? Sure. No LOS blockers like a pillar. Sure your always within RANGE too. But.... ALL SKILLS ABILITIES are ALLOWED. You wanna stealth snipe go for it. You wanna CC the fuck outta em and own em ALL from ranged, go for it. Whose the victor??? Who can sustain? Who can dominate??? I mean technically you can use your pet as the LOS blocker. Stand behind your pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 > @"uberkingkong.8041" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"uberkingkong.8041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > > > > > @stallic is right, scepter ele. it has reflects and ranged non projectiles. yall are trippin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not like Soulbeast has access to Unblockable, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If LoS is not an option, Soulbeast will always win a straight up pew-pew fight, with probably Berserker in a close 2nd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, nothing to block line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, if a necro sends in all of his pets or mesmer puts up clones, etc. Is that thing gonna land still? > > > > > > > If ranger range CC you, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > If mesmer CC lock you from range is it gonna land? > > > > > > > If thief decides to go invisible while your charging it, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > If elementalist decides to turn you into dust in 3 seconds, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would guardian even be good at this type of fight? Who you think would be worst at ranged to ranged fights? > > > > > > > Engineer? > > > > > > > Seems like Fresh Air elementalist is best unless people want to discuss why something else is better. > > > > > > > I mean going invis and being a deadeye I think is pretty deadly, but who knows, maybe once they not invis elementalist turn them into dust. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You use whatever you have to use, to win the ranged fight. Its not just a stand still fight. Its a use what you have and who has the best stuff to use wins. > > > > > > What they're forgetting about is unblockable effects. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't pan out that way vs. Ele or really vs. anything at this point. There are reasons why the better Ranger players out there right now are not running unblockables unless it's the free one from lesser call of wild in marks. > > > > > > > > > > Too many things were changed on Ranger at this point. The only way you can have unblockables now is by directly bringing a Warhorn which makes you sacrifice Great Sword to do it, which is bad, and that Warhorn 5 only makes the pet unblockable, which means the Ranger needs to be a Soulbeast for it work on the Longbow. Then of course a Ranger could bring Signet of Hunt for unblockable, which isn't worth the lose of other utilities that are quintessential in allowing a Ranger build to function. The only other way to get unblockable is to run Marks for the free lesser call of the wild, which.. only has 2 stack intensity https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild#WvW.2CPvP so even while using this, it can't allow a full Rapid Fire to get through to an Ele. At best you're looking at landing a couple hard hitting autos. But I cannot stress enough that Warhorn sucks on Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast. In no way is running Warhorn an option over Greatsword in our current patching. Even if it were to 1v1 a Fresh Air Ele, the gap closing or disengaging evade on GS3 and the GS4 block while walking into CC is just in every way better for cycling when the LB cool downs are recharging. And Signet of the Hunt just isn't worth taking. It's only a 10 stack of intensity, which is 1 Rapid Fire that gets through, on a 40s CD for the signet. And that's hoping the Ele doesn't dodge roll through the Rapid Fire right. The options for unblockables are a huge huge gamble, is what the problem is. The chances that the unblockable will do its work and allow you to land damage, is a lot lower than the chances that the opponent will dodge roll or LOS or pull something that makes you waste your unblockable CD, which chances of this are high against better opponents. But hard defensive utilities always work, like Protect Me, Sig Of Stone, Light Ref, and all on shorter CDs to boot. > > > > > > > > > > But yeah, things have changed too much. The new intensity stack system for unblockable puts really big limitations on the Ranger's ability to say: "land a LB5 while also landing Rapid Fire" which is the kind of kill combo you need to land to down something right. But with all these skills having: "lesser call 2 stacks" "normal call 3 stacks" "sig of hunt 10 stacks on 40s cd" less than half of your burst will make it through. These unblockable abilities are only practical for landing Maul and pet F2s at this point. > > > > > > > > That's all well and good. > > > > > > > > But we're not talking about a realistic in-game scenario, we're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, LoS, +1s etc are all not considered. > > > > > > So am I. Reread my first post in here. > > > > > > > > > > > And in this scenario an ideal ranged build wouldn't need to worry about picking GS to survive. It could take Warhorn, Signet of the Hunt, etc etc. So all this talk about "not worth taking in a real game" is kinda missing the point. > > > > > > It needs GS for the evade, the block, and the mobility to get places quickly like LOS or out of range of the Fresh Air channeling, which is a very large portion of being able to beat the Fresh Air Ele. The Sword leaps suck and they'll suck even more if you try to use a Warhorn and don't have a block to pair with your evade while defensing and allowing LB to come off CDs. You're a sitting duck for 9s vs. that channel that can't be entirely avoided without streaming dodge > evade > block, if you try to bring Warhorn. Using an Axe won't be enough pressure to cull off the Ele. He'll get aggressive and chase. The GS is the only way to survive the large DPS without entirely disengaging from the fight. Also remember that while using things like LB5 and LB2, the Ranger has to stand still and allow animations to finish. The Ele just fires back while having invulns and reflects. The Ele just counters the Ranger in ranged play man. > > > > > > But that's what I was trying to point out is that the stack intensity is too low on those skills for ranged LB ranged play. If you want to talk about only using ranged and never melee, 2 stacks from lesser & 3 stacks from normal & 10 stacks from sig is still not enough stacks combined to allow a full LB5 + LB2 burst to chain together and finish and actually land kill damage against the Ele. You will not be beating the Ele by tagging it with autos alone. And g'luck with that when you're missing the evade & block off GS and sacked a defensive utility for Sig 40s CD ^^ > > > > > > Anyway, w/e. > > > > > > > > > > "We're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, **LoS**, +1s etc are all not considered" > > > > "So am I" > > > > "It needs GS for the..... mobility to get places quickly like **LoS**" > > > > I really don't think you've understood the question being asked here. You're in an completely open, flat area, no cover. You can strafe and dodge, but you can't close to melee range, nor can you disengage out of range. You don't need GS to survive, because you can simply burn the Ele down within 3 seconds, since it can't run for cover in this scenario, and its projectile-denials are made redundant by unblockables. > > > > Also, what invulns does Ele have that it can use while casting? Did you perhaps miss the Feb update to Obsidian Flesh? > > > > All of that said, I'm now thinking that actually Berserker beats out Soulbeast here. Pop all signets + Defiant Stance, plus Balanced Stance, and Volley will out-DPS Rapid-Fire. And again, all of this is unblockable, so Ele, DE, DH, Rev, are all out-of-luck. > > > > One thing you not considering is somebody CCing you. > > Sounds good on paper, but once you get CC'ed, WHATCHA GONNA DO NOW? > Sounds good on paper, but once they use an ability that makes them invisible, like ranger longbow 3...... WHATCHA GONNA DO NOW??? > > Ooops your super attack is charging up. > Woops they went stealth. > They charging their SUPER attack, yet you can't see it because they stealth. > > WCHATCHA GONNA DO NOW? > > You charging your super attack and some CLONE got in the way, WHATCHA do now? > You charging your super attack and some MINION got in the way, WHATCHA DO NOW??? > You charging your super attack and some PET got in the way... WHATCHA DO NOW??? > > Sure. > No LOS blockers like a pillar. > Sure your always within RANGE too. > But.... > ALL SKILLS ABILITIES are ALLOWED. > You wanna stealth snipe go for it. > You wanna CC the kitten outta em and own em ALL from ranged, go for it. > > Whose the victor??? > > Who can sustain? > Who can dominate??? > Stability. Piercing attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 > @"Liewec.2896" said: > hammer zerker renegade! :smiley: > big damage, spam interrupts, and the nifty block from hammer! Unblockables. Stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"uberkingkong.8041" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > > > > @stallic is right, scepter ele. it has reflects and ranged non projectiles. yall are trippin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not like Soulbeast has access to Unblockable, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If LoS is not an option, Soulbeast will always win a straight up pew-pew fight, with probably Berserker in a close 2nd. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, nothing to block line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, if a necro sends in all of his pets or mesmer puts up clones, etc. Is that thing gonna land still? > > > > > > If ranger range CC you, is it gonna land? > > > > > > If mesmer CC lock you from range is it gonna land? > > > > > > If thief decides to go invisible while your charging it, is it gonna land? > > > > > > If elementalist decides to turn you into dust in 3 seconds, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would guardian even be good at this type of fight? Who you think would be worst at ranged to ranged fights? > > > > > > Engineer? > > > > > > Seems like Fresh Air elementalist is best unless people want to discuss why something else is better. > > > > > > I mean going invis and being a deadeye I think is pretty deadly, but who knows, maybe once they not invis elementalist turn them into dust. > > > > > > > > > > > > You use whatever you have to use, to win the ranged fight. Its not just a stand still fight. Its a use what you have and who has the best stuff to use wins. > > > > > What they're forgetting about is unblockable effects. > > > > > > > > It doesn't pan out that way vs. Ele or really vs. anything at this point. There are reasons why the better Ranger players out there right now are not running unblockables unless it's the free one from lesser call of wild in marks. > > > > > > > > Too many things were changed on Ranger at this point. The only way you can have unblockables now is by directly bringing a Warhorn which makes you sacrifice Great Sword to do it, which is bad, and that Warhorn 5 only makes the pet unblockable, which means the Ranger needs to be a Soulbeast for it work on the Longbow. Then of course a Ranger could bring Signet of Hunt for unblockable, which isn't worth the lose of other utilities that are quintessential in allowing a Ranger build to function. The only other way to get unblockable is to run Marks for the free lesser call of the wild, which.. only has 2 stack intensity https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild#WvW.2CPvP so even while using this, it can't allow a full Rapid Fire to get through to an Ele. At best you're looking at landing a couple hard hitting autos. But I cannot stress enough that Warhorn sucks on Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast. In no way is running Warhorn an option over Greatsword in our current patching. Even if it were to 1v1 a Fresh Air Ele, the gap closing or disengaging evade on GS3 and the GS4 block while walking into CC is just in every way better for cycling when the LB cool downs are recharging. And Signet of the Hunt just isn't worth taking. It's only a 10 stack of intensity, which is 1 Rapid Fire that gets through, on a 40s CD for the signet. And that's hoping the Ele doesn't dodge roll through the Rapid Fire right. The options for unblockables are a huge huge gamble, is what the problem is. The chances that the unblockable will do its work and allow you to land damage, is a lot lower than the chances that the opponent will dodge roll or LOS or pull something that makes you waste your unblockable CD, which chances of this are high against better opponents. But hard defensive utilities always work, like Protect Me, Sig Of Stone, Light Ref, and all on shorter CDs to boot. > > > > > > > > But yeah, things have changed too much. The new intensity stack system for unblockable puts really big limitations on the Ranger's ability to say: "land a LB5 while also landing Rapid Fire" which is the kind of kill combo you need to land to down something right. But with all these skills having: "lesser call 2 stacks" "normal call 3 stacks" "sig of hunt 10 stacks on 40s cd" less than half of your burst will make it through. These unblockable abilities are only practical for landing Maul and pet F2s at this point. > > > > > > That's all well and good. > > > > > > But we're not talking about a realistic in-game scenario, we're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, LoS, +1s etc are all not considered. > > > > So am I. Reread my first post in here. > > > > > > > > And in this scenario an ideal ranged build wouldn't need to worry about picking GS to survive. It could take Warhorn, Signet of the Hunt, etc etc. So all this talk about "not worth taking in a real game" is kinda missing the point. > > > > It needs GS for the evade, the block, and the mobility to get places quickly like LOS or out of range of the Fresh Air channeling, which is a very large portion of being able to beat the Fresh Air Ele. The Sword leaps suck and they'll suck even more if you try to use a Warhorn and don't have a block to pair with your evade while defensing and allowing LB to come off CDs. You're a sitting duck for 9s vs. that channel that can't be entirely avoided without streaming dodge > evade > block, if you try to bring Warhorn. Using an Axe won't be enough pressure to cull off the Ele. He'll get aggressive and chase. The GS is the only way to survive the large DPS without entirely disengaging from the fight. Also remember that while using things like LB5 and LB2, the Ranger has to stand still and allow animations to finish. The Ele just fires back while having invulns and reflects. The Ele just counters the Ranger in ranged play man. > > > > But that's what I was trying to point out is that the stack intensity is too low on those skills for ranged LB ranged play. If you want to talk about only using ranged and never melee, 2 stacks from lesser & 3 stacks from normal & 10 stacks from sig is still not enough stacks combined to allow a full LB5 + LB2 burst to chain together and finish and actually land kill damage against the Ele. You will not be beating the Ele by tagging it with autos alone. And g'luck with that when you're missing the evade & block off GS and sacked a defensive utility for Sig 40s CD ^^ > > > > Anyway, w/e. > > > > > > "We're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, **LoS**, +1s etc are all not considered" > > "So am I" > > "It needs GS for the..... mobility to get places quickly like **LoS**" > > I really don't think you've understood the question being asked here. You're in an completely open, flat area, no cover. You can strafe and dodge, but you can't close to melee range, nor can you disengage out of range. You don't need GS to survive, because you can simply burn the Ele down within 3 seconds, since it can't run for cover in this scenario, and its projectile-denials are made redundant by unblockables. > > Also, what invulns does Ele have that it can use while casting? Did you perhaps miss the Feb update to Obsidian Flesh? > > All of that said, I'm now thinking that actually Berserker beats out Soulbeast here. Pop all signets + Defiant Stance, plus Balanced Stance, and Volley will out-DPS Rapid-Fire. And again, all of this is unblockable, so Ele, DE, DH, Rev, are all out-of-luck. > > I'm not suggesting that any of these are actually strong builds for Conquest. Once again, this is a hypothetical, idealised, un-realistic scenario. Nobody's asking for Ranger nerfs off the back of this discussion, so you can turn off your Ranger-Police siren and blue lights. Look man, you're obviously neither a ranger or an ele main. Any ranger main will tell you that fresh air counters even things things that are more sustainy, like bunker druids. It just chews you up. And the passive sustain off of say a Core Ranger, doesn't do its job when under the channel. Counters ranger bunker variants for the same reasons it counters ranger dps. It is a light counter but a counter nonetheless. If you had spent any substantial amount of time on ranger or ele at all, you'd realize that being out in the open is actually WORSE for the ranger, with how front loaded the Ele's offense & defense actually is. The Ele can push a very very hard offense while being very very defensive at the same time. The Ranger can't do this, especially with the setup you're suggestions. It has to win through gradual DPS landed in this "ranged vs ranged only" situation and it will have no defense beyond dodge rolling, light reflex, and LB3/4 which often fails due to reflect. So you'll be using your unblockables to use 0 damage defensive skills, that's what you're not understanding here. Surviving the channel damage will not be possible without the mechanics the GS provides. That channel from the Ele is like, not something you can dodge roll once and outplay. It's a damage hose that just keeps pushing pushing out this gradual damage that keeps happening even after a dodge or evade. The ele will come in front loaded offensively & defensively out in the open with no LOS and push that tactic on the ranger, forcing the ranger "your build idea" in a situation where it must land a LB5 and LB2 at the same time with it's maximum intensity for unblockable strikes only at 15. It will be on a 40s CD in between its ability to try that. If the ele was wise at all, it would reflect your autos and perserve dodge for vs. LB5/2, soak all other damage, and there isn't anything you would be able to do to equal your LB autos damage to the damage of the channel, nothing. lol Rifle Berserker does not counter DPS Soulbeast with a Longbow. Talk to Vaans about that one vs. just me as an example. And yeah, I'm talking pure ranged vs. ranged. That would never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu.9745 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Is swaping weapons allowed in your scenario op? I mean if you can play with two ranged weapons? If yes, then condi Mirage or core Mesmer with Scepter and Staff wins with easy. Ranger's LB alone is not enough pressure to kill a Mesmer with 2 ranged weapons and 3 x stealth. Also bunker builds, such as Mender Scepter/x/Staff Guardian or condi bunker core Necro or Scourge (staff/scepter/torch) would have great chance to win. All Profession that can equip two ranged weapons would have an advantage over those who can only play with one ranged weapon, such as LB power ranger. Edit: btw, who would win if only melee weapons are allowed? Any idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 > @"Sifu.9745" said: > Is swaping weapons allowed in your scenario op? I mean if you can play with two ranged weapons? If yes, then condi Mirage or core Mesmer with Scepter and Staff wins with easy. Ranger's LB alone is not enough pressure to kill a Mesmer with 2 ranged weapons and 3 x stealth. Also bunker builds, such as Mender Scepter/x/Staff Guardian or condi bunker core Necro or Scourge (staff/scepter/torch) would have great chance to win. All Profession that can equip two ranged weapons would have an advantage over those who can only play with one ranged weapon, such as LB power ranger. > > Edit: btw, who would win if only melee weapons are allowed? Any idea? mesmer scepter and staff are shit at long ranges, those are medium range weapons. scepter has 900 range and not 1800 that lb has, ambush and autoattack miss at long range too. staff has no damage whatsoever anyways. as for melee only I can see holo with laser disk be a monster, this one skill alone can dish out damage close to 30k to 40k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"uberkingkong.8041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > > > > > @stallic is right, scepter ele. it has reflects and ranged non projectiles. yall are trippin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not like Soulbeast has access to Unblockable, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If LoS is not an option, Soulbeast will always win a straight up pew-pew fight, with probably Berserker in a close 2nd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, nothing to block line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, if a necro sends in all of his pets or mesmer puts up clones, etc. Is that thing gonna land still? > > > > > > > If ranger range CC you, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > If mesmer CC lock you from range is it gonna land? > > > > > > > If thief decides to go invisible while your charging it, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > If elementalist decides to turn you into dust in 3 seconds, is it gonna land? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would guardian even be good at this type of fight? Who you think would be worst at ranged to ranged fights? > > > > > > > Engineer? > > > > > > > Seems like Fresh Air elementalist is best unless people want to discuss why something else is better. > > > > > > > I mean going invis and being a deadeye I think is pretty deadly, but who knows, maybe once they not invis elementalist turn them into dust. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You use whatever you have to use, to win the ranged fight. Its not just a stand still fight. Its a use what you have and who has the best stuff to use wins. > > > > > > What they're forgetting about is unblockable effects. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't pan out that way vs. Ele or really vs. anything at this point. There are reasons why the better Ranger players out there right now are not running unblockables unless it's the free one from lesser call of wild in marks. > > > > > > > > > > Too many things were changed on Ranger at this point. The only way you can have unblockables now is by directly bringing a Warhorn which makes you sacrifice Great Sword to do it, which is bad, and that Warhorn 5 only makes the pet unblockable, which means the Ranger needs to be a Soulbeast for it work on the Longbow. Then of course a Ranger could bring Signet of Hunt for unblockable, which isn't worth the lose of other utilities that are quintessential in allowing a Ranger build to function. The only other way to get unblockable is to run Marks for the free lesser call of the wild, which.. only has 2 stack intensity https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild#WvW.2CPvP so even while using this, it can't allow a full Rapid Fire to get through to an Ele. At best you're looking at landing a couple hard hitting autos. But I cannot stress enough that Warhorn sucks on Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast. In no way is running Warhorn an option over Greatsword in our current patching. Even if it were to 1v1 a Fresh Air Ele, the gap closing or disengaging evade on GS3 and the GS4 block while walking into CC is just in every way better for cycling when the LB cool downs are recharging. And Signet of the Hunt just isn't worth taking. It's only a 10 stack of intensity, which is 1 Rapid Fire that gets through, on a 40s CD for the signet. And that's hoping the Ele doesn't dodge roll through the Rapid Fire right. The options for unblockables are a huge huge gamble, is what the problem is. The chances that the unblockable will do its work and allow you to land damage, is a lot lower than the chances that the opponent will dodge roll or LOS or pull something that makes you waste your unblockable CD, which chances of this are high against better opponents. But hard defensive utilities always work, like Protect Me, Sig Of Stone, Light Ref, and all on shorter CDs to boot. > > > > > > > > > > But yeah, things have changed too much. The new intensity stack system for unblockable puts really big limitations on the Ranger's ability to say: "land a LB5 while also landing Rapid Fire" which is the kind of kill combo you need to land to down something right. But with all these skills having: "lesser call 2 stacks" "normal call 3 stacks" "sig of hunt 10 stacks on 40s cd" less than half of your burst will make it through. These unblockable abilities are only practical for landing Maul and pet F2s at this point. > > > > > > > > That's all well and good. > > > > > > > > But we're not talking about a realistic in-game scenario, we're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, LoS, +1s etc are all not considered. > > > > > > So am I. Reread my first post in here. > > > > > > > > > > > And in this scenario an ideal ranged build wouldn't need to worry about picking GS to survive. It could take Warhorn, Signet of the Hunt, etc etc. So all this talk about "not worth taking in a real game" is kinda missing the point. > > > > > > It needs GS for the evade, the block, and the mobility to get places quickly like LOS or out of range of the Fresh Air channeling, which is a very large portion of being able to beat the Fresh Air Ele. The Sword leaps suck and they'll suck even more if you try to use a Warhorn and don't have a block to pair with your evade while defensing and allowing LB to come off CDs. You're a sitting duck for 9s vs. that channel that can't be entirely avoided without streaming dodge > evade > block, if you try to bring Warhorn. Using an Axe won't be enough pressure to cull off the Ele. He'll get aggressive and chase. The GS is the only way to survive the large DPS without entirely disengaging from the fight. Also remember that while using things like LB5 and LB2, the Ranger has to stand still and allow animations to finish. The Ele just fires back while having invulns and reflects. The Ele just counters the Ranger in ranged play man. > > > > > > But that's what I was trying to point out is that the stack intensity is too low on those skills for ranged LB ranged play. If you want to talk about only using ranged and never melee, 2 stacks from lesser & 3 stacks from normal & 10 stacks from sig is still not enough stacks combined to allow a full LB5 + LB2 burst to chain together and finish and actually land kill damage against the Ele. You will not be beating the Ele by tagging it with autos alone. And g'luck with that when you're missing the evade & block off GS and sacked a defensive utility for Sig 40s CD ^^ > > > > > > Anyway, w/e. > > > > > > > > > > "We're talking about an idealised range vs range scenario, where melee, **LoS**, +1s etc are all not considered" > > > > "So am I" > > > > "It needs GS for the..... mobility to get places quickly like **LoS**" > > > > I really don't think you've understood the question being asked here. You're in an completely open, flat area, no cover. You can strafe and dodge, but you can't close to melee range, nor can you disengage out of range. You don't need GS to survive, because you can simply burn the Ele down within 3 seconds, since it can't run for cover in this scenario, and its projectile-denials are made redundant by unblockables. > > > > Also, what invulns does Ele have that it can use while casting? Did you perhaps miss the Feb update to Obsidian Flesh? > > > > All of that said, I'm now thinking that actually Berserker beats out Soulbeast here. Pop all signets + Defiant Stance, plus Balanced Stance, and Volley will out-DPS Rapid-Fire. And again, all of this is unblockable, so Ele, DE, DH, Rev, are all out-of-luck. > > > > I'm not suggesting that any of these are actually strong builds for Conquest. Once again, this is a hypothetical, idealised, un-realistic scenario. Nobody's asking for Ranger nerfs off the back of this discussion, so you can turn off your Ranger-Police siren and blue lights. > > The Ele can push a very very hard offense while being very very defensive at the same time. And that defense is? Oh yeah, blocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 > @"uberkingkong.8041" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > Stricly ranged fights? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sniper%27s_Cover > > Deadeye wins by default lol. It's good stricly ranged fights do not exist in this game. > > Hrmmmm interesting. > But not all ranged attacks are missiles. > Some like staff elementalist is an AE on the floor. > Necros do AE on the floor too > > Can a deadeye beat a mesmer in ranged combat? Mesmers use a lot of clones, has a lot of CC with clones, ranged CC too to interrupt deadeye long cooldown attacks. > > Now my next question what is considered a missile? > I assume https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire is a missile but it doesn't say it is a missile > However https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Tooth is this a missile? Does Sniper Cover block dragon tooth? > > I'm guessing missiles are anything that the crystal creatures in Jade Maw reflect, so scepter ele, all his attacks would land, correct? > > In a ranged fight does deadeye beat scepter ele? > Scepter ele trumps mesmer too you think? Deadeye is the best ranged single target spec in the game. This is its nieche, of course it will beat everything. If you can't see how, go play with it for some time. You have the ability to permanently lock down and blindspam enemies 1500 units away from you, and you have more stealth than they have condicleanse&stunbreaks&reflects so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 well yeah if rang can switch to gs for that extra leap and block then it wins. once sic em runs out tho without gs its a wrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu.9745 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Sifu.9745" said: > > Is swaping weapons allowed in your scenario op? I mean if you can play with two ranged weapons? If yes, then condi Mirage or core Mesmer with Scepter and Staff wins with easy. Ranger's LB alone is not enough pressure to kill a Mesmer with 2 ranged weapons and 3 x stealth. Also bunker builds, such as Mender Scepter/x/Staff Guardian or condi bunker core Necro or Scourge (staff/scepter/torch) would have great chance to win. All Profession that can equip two ranged weapons would have an advantage over those who can only play with one ranged weapon, such as LB power ranger. > > > > Edit: btw, who would win if only melee weapons are allowed? Any idea? > > mesmer scepter and staff are kitten at long ranges, those are medium range weapons. > scepter has 900 range and not 1800 that lb has, ambush and autoattack miss at long range too. staff has no damage whatsoever anyways. > Well as i understand "the rules" in this fight you are free to move as close to your opponent as you want to, right? so no need to stay at max range. I guess you won't be staying at 1500 range, if your ranged weapon has 900 range? You can come as close to your opponent as you want to (he/she can't keep you on max distance for more then a few seconds), the only rule is: no melee weapons. So you can actually fight in melee range with your staf/scepter. I have no trouble killing LB rangers with my condi mesmer usually, even if they can also use a GS. In this kind of fight they are limited to LB only, with exception of Druid who can play with Staff and LB, not sure how this fight would end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azreell.1568 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 For a ranged encounter all things being equal except class: Deadeye & Ranger would be the top picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldofBay.8160 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 in my mind ranger LB5 in a flat open field with no obstructions, no choke points, no +1 and without lethal condis won't do much as you can just move away (if necessary, cleanse the immob before and take 1-2 hits which isn't a big deal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouk.5914 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Ranger or Deadeye without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 sicem soulbeast > deadeye > scepter weaver > sicem soulbeast > deadeye > scepter weaver > ... rock paper scissors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > sicem soulbeast > deadeye > scepter weaver > sicem soulbeast > deadeye > scepter weaver > ... > > rock paper scissors You're actually right about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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