Crono.4197 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"mikdepadua.8376" said: > > > Forums tend to attract people with complaints so I find that places like these aren't the best place to ask questions like those. > > > > who else would you ask? the people. who have left? those without complaints? no one at all? batman? > > aren't you the perfect example of a disgruntled player who can't let go? You are literally proving his point. > > Just saying, his point is that happy players are actively playing the game, while unhappy players come to vent. This extends so far that even players who are NOT active decide to come vent on the forums or continue to spread their displeasure while having 0 active stake in the game. Which gives a very skewed view of how players in game and on the forums actually experience the game. > > This game could be on an all time high, but having unhappy ex players cloud the forums with their complaints will make it seem as though the game is about to close shop.This is valid for pretty much all MMORPGs and their forum communities because there is always players leaving and players joining (or returning). I'm one of those happy players that really loves the game and has almost zero complaints about it. But whenever I say that, people on the forum bash me for it, like "don't talk if you don't wanna complain about the game and have only nice things to say!" I never really understood why people are always all doom and gloom on the forums. So many people play the game. No matter on which map I go, I always see tons of players. So no, the game is not dying and has a future. Yeah, it would be nice for the game to have all the features literally every player wanted, but that's not realistically possible. In the end it's ArenaNet's game and they can add or remove what they want. I enjoy the universe as it is, not thinking "I would like them to add this, I want them to add this, the game is dying because I don't have what I want". I always look forward to see what ArenaNet brings to the game in each patch, how the story develops, etc. And many people are like me, more than the ones that complain. People that complain indeed seem to be people that just can't let go of the game. I played TERA for 4 years and I really loved the game, but the toxic community was too much for me and in the end I had to let go of the game, for my own sake. But it took me a long time and until I managed to do it, I always complained exactly like this: "aaa tera is bad, aaaa bad community, bad gearing system, low population, etc etc". Maybe it's the same situation here, because I don't see why someone would always post doom and gloom topics on the forum, when in my eyes Guild Wars 2 is such a great game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction! > > GW2 doesnt have the eternal life, but it is far from death. People always have had concerns and it is primarly cause the current course isn't yours. I do think it is why Arenanet is doing a good job here. They do not try to cather everyone at once as it is impossible , but they try to add things for most. > > I also know they take time to adjust any serious issues like old meta's not being done. It takes time to solve it, but I have no doubt it will. Where or when exactly have they *ever* actually remedied issues relating to people not playing older meta events that actually had any impact? Because its still an issue...so one can't really say "they will" when thats something they really haven't done before. A **lot**, **most** even, map metas are not done these days. Only a select *few* are actually done with any level of consistency. > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"mikdepadua.8376" said: > > > Forums tend to attract people with complaints so I find that places like these aren't the best place to ask questions like those. > > > > who else would you ask? the people. who have left? those without complaints? no one at all? batman? > > aren't you the perfect example of a disgruntled player who can't let go? You are literally proving his point. > > Just saying, his point is that happy players are actively playing the game, while unhappy players come to vent. This extends so far that even players who are NOT active decide to come vent on the forums or continue to spread their displeasure while having 0 active stake in the game. Which gives a very skewed view of how players in game and on the forums actually experience the game. > > This game could be on an all time high, but having unhappy ex players cloud the forums with their complaints will make it seem as though the game is about to close shop.This is valid for pretty much all MMORPGs and their forum communities because there is always players leaving and players joining (or returning). But does the fact that they don't play actually refute or invalidate the concerns and complaints they have? Arguably I'd say that entirely depends on how they are voicing them and what the complaints actually are. If someone rolls into these forums after having uninstalled the game just groaning and griping and complaining that they got killed by a certain class in PvP or that some certain piece of PvE content killed them one too many times, yes I would say that isn't entirely valid. GW2, as a game is..."okay". Being someone that has recently quit and uninstalled I can at least make that distinction, but that doesn't mean the problems I saw in ANet as a development company (communication policy or otherwise), how the game is handled, the lackluster and shallow PvE content per content release, the neglected PvP modes, and discrepancies between earnable ingame skins compared to buyable skins, all reasons for why I quit, just miraculously disappear or become invalid or irrelevant as criticisms or negatives/cons of the game. I was with this franchise for 15 years, I do still in some ways care where it goes because it was a large part of me growing up, but ultimately I ended up not wanting to mentally torture myself anymore by doing mental gymnastics to try and figure out what ANet is even doing or trying to do, all the while feeling like they couldn't give any amount of care about long time players like myself. Mind you I have no issues with games doing things for casuals, but with the seeming lack of direction, abhorrently obvious lack of communication, depressing lack of attention to many pieces of content and what seems like an honest lack of passion for their own game I lost any kind of faith in them. Remember how passionate we saw Colin be for GW2 when he was still around? Same with Mike O, despite his questionable decisions and ideas relating to the game, that all seems to have gone buh-bye. Defend the game and the company if you want, that is fine, but please acknowledge the reality and the problems that *do* exist with the game. Don't fluff their ego, thats kind of what got things to this point in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arden.7480 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 It's about your mindset - if people stop supporting Anet by buying gems - It's when GW2 is over. If you don't enjoy it right now, maybe take a break and get a fresh view on the game - it always seem game is dead, because there is no active patch - just imagine there are thousands like you that join when something new is released. Many people play games like that - even WoW won't have hundreds of thousand players active every day - you can see it by queues when a patch is launched. Everything is about your mindset and adjusting to changes - you won't bother about visual effects in 100cm, because you simply accept them. Not everyone will say effects suck, because many people will love what you hate. It's always easier to complain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction! > > > > GW2 doesnt have the eternal life, but it is far from death. People always have had concerns and it is primarly cause the current course isn't yours. I do think it is why Arenanet is doing a good job here. They do not try to cather everyone at once as it is impossible , but they try to add things for most. > > > > I also know they take time to adjust any serious issues like old meta's not being done. It takes time to solve it, but I have no doubt it will. > > Where or when exactly have they *ever* actually remedied issues relating to people not playing older meta events that actually had any impact? Because its still an issue...so one can't really say "they will" when thats something they really haven't done before. A **lot**, **most** even, map metas are not done these days. Only a select *few* are actually done with any level of consistency. > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"mikdepadua.8376" said: > > > > Forums tend to attract people with complaints so I find that places like these aren't the best place to ask questions like those. > > > > > > who else would you ask? the people. who have left? those without complaints? no one at all? batman? > > > > aren't you the perfect example of a disgruntled player who can't let go? You are literally proving his point. > > > > Just saying, his point is that happy players are actively playing the game, while unhappy players come to vent. This extends so far that even players who are NOT active decide to come vent on the forums or continue to spread their displeasure while having 0 active stake in the game. Which gives a very skewed view of how players in game and on the forums actually experience the game. > > > > This game could be on an all time high, but having unhappy ex players cloud the forums with their complaints will make it seem as though the game is about to close shop.This is valid for pretty much all MMORPGs and their forum communities because there is always players leaving and players joining (or returning). > > But does the fact that they don't play actually refute or invalidate the concerns and complaints they have? Arguably I'd say that entirely depends on how they are voicing them and what the complaints actually are. If someone rolls into these forums after having uninstalled the game just groaning and griping and complaining that they got killed by a certain class in PvP or that some certain piece of PvE content killed them one too many times, yes I would say that isn't entirely valid. > True, I also never criticized or complained about constructive or valid criticism. Yet if a player remains active on the forums for years after they have "quit" the game, not actively playing it. I'd say yes, their concerns are invalid. First because the game has likely changed drastically, so anyone lingering for that long has no objective or even subjective experience with the current state of the game. Second, and the more likely grievance, the game probably changed in a way they disliked and they are simply lingering to keep voicing their complaint, no matter if the game is actually better off for changing. If it were off worse, current players would take up the mantle to complain. No need for these inactive "old-timers". > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > GW2, as a game is..."okay". Being someone that has recently quit and uninstalled I can at least make that distinction, but that doesn't mean the problems I saw in ANet as a development company (communication policy or otherwise), how the game is handled, the lackluster and shallow PvE content per content release, the neglected PvP modes, and discrepancies between earnable ingame skins compared to buyable skins, all reasons for why I quit, just miraculously disappear or become invalid or irrelevant as criticisms or negatives/cons of the game. I was with this franchise for 15 years, I do still in some ways care where it goes because it was a large part of me growing up, but ultimately I ended up not wanting to mentally torture myself anymore by doing mental gymnastics to try and figure out what ANet is even doing or trying to do, all the while feeling like they couldn't give any amount of care about long time players like myself. Mind you I have no issues with games doing things for casuals, but with the seeming lack of direction, abhorrently obvious lack of communication, depressing lack of attention to many pieces of content and what seems like an honest lack of passion for their own game I lost any kind of faith in them. Remember how passionate we saw Colin be for GW2 when he was still around? Same with Mike O, despite his questionable decisions and ideas relating to the game, that all seems to have gone buh-bye. > > Defend the game and the company if you want, that is fine, but please acknowledge the reality and the problems that *do* exist with the game. Don't fluff their ego, thats kind of what got things to this point in the first place. I could make a huge list of the issues and complaints the game had during those "glory" days. I even made a small mock list in this thread to show that there has always been complaints and issues. I'm not even going to disagree with you on some issues being systemic and ongoing, like lack of sticking with content for example. That was not what I was referring to with my post. To take you, or me, as an example: Sorry to see you go, but I would hope that some time down the road you give the game another chance, or come back to see what was added or changed, or not, that is your choice. As mentioned I have taken breaks and I likely will again some time in the future. That is not the issue. The issue is if you, or I, were to remain on these forums, after giving some valid criticism before leaving, clouding them in negativity without at least adjusting to the fact that either of us are not actively playing the game 2 years down the road. We have forum regulars who are stuck in 5 or 6 years old content, bringing up ancient history as if this had any bearing on the game today without having played this game in probably years. That's what I was referring to. Also just to be clear, I am not opposing that players make use of their right to freedom of speech, which I would hope most are subject to in their respective countries. I am literally saying: get a life and move on, it's a game. Stop treating it as some lost love you can't get past years down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercury ranique.2170 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction! > > > > GW2 doesnt have the eternal life, but it is far from death. People always have had concerns and it is primarly cause the current course isn't yours. I do think it is why Arenanet is doing a good job here. They do not try to cather everyone at once as it is impossible , but they try to add things for most. > > > > I also know they take time to adjust any serious issues like old meta's not being done. It takes time to solve it, but I have no doubt it will. > > Where or when exactly have they *ever* actually remedied issues relating to people not playing older meta events that actually had any impact? Because its still an issue...so one can't really say "they will" when thats something they really haven't done before. A **lot**, **most** even, map metas are not done these days. Only a select *few* are actually done with any level of consistency. > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"mikdepadua.8376" said: > > > > Forums tend to attract people with complaints so I find that places like these aren't the best place to ask questions like those. > > > > > > who else would you ask? the people. who have left? those without complaints? no one at all? batman? > > > > aren't you the perfect example of a disgruntled player who can't let go? You are literally proving his point. > > > > Just saying, his point is that happy players are actively playing the game, while unhappy players come to vent. This extends so far that even players who are NOT active decide to come vent on the forums or continue to spread their displeasure while having 0 active stake in the game. Which gives a very skewed view of how players in game and on the forums actually experience the game. > > > > This game could be on an all time high, but having unhappy ex players cloud the forums with their complaints will make it seem as though the game is about to close shop.This is valid for pretty much all MMORPGs and their forum communities because there is always players leaving and players joining (or returning). > > But does the fact that they don't play actually refute or invalidate the concerns and complaints they have? Arguably I'd say that entirely depends on how they are voicing them and what the complaints actually are. If someone rolls into these forums after having uninstalled the game just groaning and griping and complaining that they got killed by a certain class in PvP or that some certain piece of PvE content killed them one too many times, yes I would say that isn't entirely valid. > > GW2, as a game is..."okay". Being someone that has recently quit and uninstalled I can at least make that distinction, but that doesn't mean the problems I saw in ANet as a development company (communication policy or otherwise), how the game is handled, the lackluster and shallow PvE content per content release, the neglected PvP modes, and discrepancies between earnable ingame skins compared to buyable skins, all reasons for why I quit, just miraculously disappear or become invalid or irrelevant as criticisms or negatives/cons of the game. I was with this franchise for 15 years, I do still in some ways care where it goes because it was a large part of me growing up, but ultimately I ended up not wanting to mentally torture myself anymore by doing mental gymnastics to try and figure out what ANet is even doing or trying to do, all the while feeling like they couldn't give any amount of care about long time players like myself. Mind you I have no issues with games doing things for casuals, but with the seeming lack of direction, abhorrently obvious lack of communication, depressing lack of attention to many pieces of content and what seems like an honest lack of passion for their own game I lost any kind of faith in them. Remember how passionate we saw Colin be for GW2 when he was still around? Same with Mike O, despite his questionable decisions and ideas relating to the game, that all seems to have gone buh-bye. > > Defend the game and the company if you want, that is fine, but please acknowledge the reality and the problems that *do* exist with the game. Don't fluff their ego, thats kind of what got things to this point in the first place. It is not about fluffing their ego or anything. It is about what is good for the game. The essence is the revenue model in GW2. It is different from games with monthly fees. Not only does it mean they have less resources, but also that they depend more on sales from the game and it's expansions. This has always been the case. It also mean they focus more on what is new and not to polish up what is old. What is old is good enough to be an advertisement for the payed content. Another element here is addiction. Why would one care how well things are? unless it is cause you care too much. It is just a game. Arenanet has no financial interest in you to keep playing. I think it is a good thing. Where a monthly fee contributes to addiction, is the GW2 model, based on new sales, better to acknowledge people who are too worn out so the lack of polishing is annoying to them. You said yourself it was a mental torment. Why would you put yourself through that. Arenanet doesnt need to care (and wont) financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > > It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction! > > > > > > GW2 doesnt have the eternal life, but it is far from death. People always have had concerns and it is primarly cause the current course isn't yours. I do think it is why Arenanet is doing a good job here. They do not try to cather everyone at once as it is impossible , but they try to add things for most. > > > > > > I also know they take time to adjust any serious issues like old meta's not being done. It takes time to solve it, but I have no doubt it will. > > > > Where or when exactly have they *ever* actually remedied issues relating to people not playing older meta events that actually had any impact? Because its still an issue...so one can't really say "they will" when thats something they really haven't done before. A **lot**, **most** even, map metas are not done these days. Only a select *few* are actually done with any level of consistency. > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"mikdepadua.8376" said: > > > > > Forums tend to attract people with complaints so I find that places like these aren't the best place to ask questions like those. > > > > > > > > who else would you ask? the people. who have left? those without complaints? no one at all? batman? > > > > > > aren't you the perfect example of a disgruntled player who can't let go? You are literally proving his point. > > > > > > Just saying, his point is that happy players are actively playing the game, while unhappy players come to vent. This extends so far that even players who are NOT active decide to come vent on the forums or continue to spread their displeasure while having 0 active stake in the game. Which gives a very skewed view of how players in game and on the forums actually experience the game. > > > > > > This game could be on an all time high, but having unhappy ex players cloud the forums with their complaints will make it seem as though the game is about to close shop.This is valid for pretty much all MMORPGs and their forum communities because there is always players leaving and players joining (or returning). > > > > But does the fact that they don't play actually refute or invalidate the concerns and complaints they have? Arguably I'd say that entirely depends on how they are voicing them and what the complaints actually are. If someone rolls into these forums after having uninstalled the game just groaning and griping and complaining that they got killed by a certain class in PvP or that some certain piece of PvE content killed them one too many times, yes I would say that isn't entirely valid. > > > > True, I also never criticized or complained about constructive or valid criticism. > > Yet if a player remains active on the forums for years after they have "quit" the game, not actively playing it. I'd say yes, their concerns are invalid. First because the game has likely changed drastically, so anyone lingering for that long has no objective or even subjective experience with the current state of the game. Second, and the more likely grievance, the game probably changed in a way they disliked and they are simply lingering to keep voicing their complaint, no matter if the game is actually better off for changing. If it were off worse, current players would take up the mantle to complain. No need for these inactive "old-timers". > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > GW2, as a game is..."okay". Being someone that has recently quit and uninstalled I can at least make that distinction, but that doesn't mean the problems I saw in ANet as a development company (communication policy or otherwise), how the game is handled, the lackluster and shallow PvE content per content release, the neglected PvP modes, and discrepancies between earnable ingame skins compared to buyable skins, all reasons for why I quit, just miraculously disappear or become invalid or irrelevant as criticisms or negatives/cons of the game. I was with this franchise for 15 years, I do still in some ways care where it goes because it was a large part of me growing up, but ultimately I ended up not wanting to mentally torture myself anymore by doing mental gymnastics to try and figure out what ANet is even doing or trying to do, all the while feeling like they couldn't give any amount of care about long time players like myself. Mind you I have no issues with games doing things for casuals, but with the seeming lack of direction, abhorrently obvious lack of communication, depressing lack of attention to many pieces of content and what seems like an honest lack of passion for their own game I lost any kind of faith in them. Remember how passionate we saw Colin be for GW2 when he was still around? Same with Mike O, despite his questionable decisions and ideas relating to the game, that all seems to have gone buh-bye. > > > > Defend the game and the company if you want, that is fine, but please acknowledge the reality and the problems that *do* exist with the game. Don't fluff their ego, thats kind of what got things to this point in the first place. > > I could make a huge list of the issues and complaints the game had during those "glory" days. I even made a small mock list in this thread to show that there has always been complaints and issues. I'm not even going to disagree with you on some issues being systemic and ongoing, like lack of sticking with content for example. > > That was not what I was referring to with my post. > > To take you, or me, as an example: > Sorry to see you go, but I would hope that some time down the road you give the game another chance, or come back to see what was added or changed, or not, that is your choice. As mentioned I have taken breaks and I likely will again some time in the future. That is not the issue. The issue is if you, or I, were to remain on these forums, after giving some valid criticism before leaving, clouding them in negativity without at least adjusting to the fact that either of us are not actively playing the game 2 years down the road. We have forum regulars who are stuck in 5 or 6 years old content, bringing up ancient history as if this had any bearing on the game today without having played this game in probably years. That's what I was referring to. > > Also just to be clear, I am not opposing that players make use of their right to freedom of speech, which I would hope most are subject to in their respective countries. I am literally saying: get a life and move on, it's a game. Stop treating it as some lost love you can't get past years down the road. It isn't so much about "glory days" and believing them to be perfect. GW2, any game really, is never without flaws and there are always criticisms and complaints to be made. *Always*. It has just gotten to the point where, for me at least, some of these problems have been around for so long and gone unresolved or more, and more have appeared that compound into a worsening situation that it has just made me done with it. I don't get that sense with other games that I still actively play, i.e like Warframe or just more recently I've gotten back into Destiny 2. Neither of those games are perfect, they each have their own issues that warrant criticism and complaints, but I don't see either of them having such glaring issues that they make me want to up and quit. I quit WoW *ages* ago for much more trivial reasons, I got back into it because *honestly* I feel like its an actual better MMORPG than GW2 these days, I'm sure that opinion will get me **shot** here. FFXIV as well. > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > > It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction! > > > > > > GW2 doesnt have the eternal life, but it is far from death. People always have had concerns and it is primarly cause the current course isn't yours. I do think it is why Arenanet is doing a good job here. They do not try to cather everyone at once as it is impossible , but they try to add things for most. > > > > > > I also know they take time to adjust any serious issues like old meta's not being done. It takes time to solve it, but I have no doubt it will. > > > > Where or when exactly have they *ever* actually remedied issues relating to people not playing older meta events that actually had any impact? Because its still an issue...so one can't really say "they will" when thats something they really haven't done before. A **lot**, **most** even, map metas are not done these days. Only a select *few* are actually done with any level of consistency. > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"mikdepadua.8376" said: > > > > > Forums tend to attract people with complaints so I find that places like these aren't the best place to ask questions like those. > > > > > > > > who else would you ask? the people. who have left? those without complaints? no one at all? batman? > > > > > > aren't you the perfect example of a disgruntled player who can't let go? You are literally proving his point. > > > > > > Just saying, his point is that happy players are actively playing the game, while unhappy players come to vent. This extends so far that even players who are NOT active decide to come vent on the forums or continue to spread their displeasure while having 0 active stake in the game. Which gives a very skewed view of how players in game and on the forums actually experience the game. > > > > > > This game could be on an all time high, but having unhappy ex players cloud the forums with their complaints will make it seem as though the game is about to close shop.This is valid for pretty much all MMORPGs and their forum communities because there is always players leaving and players joining (or returning). > > > > But does the fact that they don't play actually refute or invalidate the concerns and complaints they have? Arguably I'd say that entirely depends on how they are voicing them and what the complaints actually are. If someone rolls into these forums after having uninstalled the game just groaning and griping and complaining that they got killed by a certain class in PvP or that some certain piece of PvE content killed them one too many times, yes I would say that isn't entirely valid. > > > > GW2, as a game is..."okay". Being someone that has recently quit and uninstalled I can at least make that distinction, but that doesn't mean the problems I saw in ANet as a development company (communication policy or otherwise), how the game is handled, the lackluster and shallow PvE content per content release, the neglected PvP modes, and discrepancies between earnable ingame skins compared to buyable skins, all reasons for why I quit, just miraculously disappear or become invalid or irrelevant as criticisms or negatives/cons of the game. I was with this franchise for 15 years, I do still in some ways care where it goes because it was a large part of me growing up, but ultimately I ended up not wanting to mentally torture myself anymore by doing mental gymnastics to try and figure out what ANet is even doing or trying to do, all the while feeling like they couldn't give any amount of care about long time players like myself. Mind you I have no issues with games doing things for casuals, but with the seeming lack of direction, abhorrently obvious lack of communication, depressing lack of attention to many pieces of content and what seems like an honest lack of passion for their own game I lost any kind of faith in them. Remember how passionate we saw Colin be for GW2 when he was still around? Same with Mike O, despite his questionable decisions and ideas relating to the game, that all seems to have gone buh-bye. > > > > Defend the game and the company if you want, that is fine, but please acknowledge the reality and the problems that *do* exist with the game. Don't fluff their ego, thats kind of what got things to this point in the first place. > > It is not about fluffing their ego or anything. It is about what is good for the game. > The essence is the revenue model in GW2. It is different from games with monthly fees. Not only does it mean they have less resources, but also that they depend more on sales from the game and it's expansions. This has always been the case. > It also mean they focus more on what is new and not to polish up what is old. What is old is good enough to be an advertisement for the payed content. > > Another element here is addiction. Why would one care how well things are? unless it is cause you care too much. It is just a game. Arenanet has no financial interest in you to keep playing. I think it is a good thing. Where a monthly fee contributes to addiction, is the GW2 model, based on new sales, better to acknowledge people who are too worn out so the lack of polishing is annoying to them. You said yourself it was a mental torment. Why would you put yourself through that. Arenanet doesnt need to care (and wont) financially. Other games with live service models do things arguably better while being in the same situation. * Destiny 2 is Free to Play, it relies on expansion releases, microtransactions and season pass purchases to maintain itself. Three expansions later since its release (its third launching in less than a day) and they took some big steps to try and be better, do better, without doing the silly things ANet has done. Each Season hasn't been an exact hit, and the early DLC for the game were very questionable but with their steam release they bundled all year one stuff into the free to play version and opted for the season content. * Warframe is Free to Play and relies entirely upon its microtransactions for revenue. It has no pay to win, and its premium currency can be traded between players for a variety of things that are all attainable in the game, on top of having the steam workshop available to them for cosmetics. * Path of Exile is also Free to Play and has free Season updates with different mechanics. They sustain off of cosmetic and convenience microtransactions alone. * BDO is $10, often discounted to $5, and has free content releases and sustains from its microtransactions *quite well*. Now you can make the argument that BDO is Pay to Win, I won't refute that because it arguably is...but it still muscled GW2 out of the way in MMOs in my opinion in terms of actual player retention. Those are just a few examples. GW2 has dropped considerably as an MMORPG, especially from where it should be with the way some people talk about it. In terms of player retention and active playerbase...GW2 is far below Runescape *and* **Old school** Runescape. Its below **Star Citizen** and that game isn't even actually out yet. You could make the argument that active playerbase doesn't mean its a good game but...you don't see *less* people playing a game when its apparently "so amazing". My decision to quit wasn't based on others opinions, mind you, but I do feel like its a *tad bit* telling as to some of the unfortunate mindset I see sometimes on these forums and have seen ingame before. So you can say that it isn't about "fluffing their ego. It is about what is good for the game" but you personally have had criticisms that I've seen you make threads about, but I've also seen you fluff their ego. Good things that they do should be acknowledged, 100%, but you also shouldn't just ignore the issues. ANet has in the last several years gone full head in the sand when it comes to getting criticism, seemingly so at least, and it shows in the severe lack of communication with the community. Its so bad, I might add, that not only have we **still** not heard about Mike Z leaving from ANet themselves, but they also have said *nothing* about the fact that they are looking for a game director on their careers page. They have an expansion "in the works"...that is **concerning**, or it should be concerning for those that are still playing and looking forward to EoD and Cantha. All I ask is that people don't ignore the problems, hold ANet accountable...don't baby them, even if thats clearly what they want these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare.5129 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 > @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said: > Somewhat I think recently not I mean certainly we will get the next add-on and maybe a living story after this but then I'm not even sure I want to play it after this even. Good Choose ! Make a break ! I do some break always ! It is great! > I see so many cracks happening in this game where it falls apart and discourage the player(s) and I play a lot of game modes. ok, let go deeeper! > Open World => Population on some maps/meta is so tin you can't do them any more and the new map(s) have insane long meta. use mirrors for lfg, also find pve guild, where on map people join separatly and per short time think thare map populiation better for them and come on same mirror. Don't try do meta solo :) > PvP => Too much cooking too less straight forward balancing in 2 years I played 6-7 builds/classes which are all nerfed don't try find some balance it all. Play and get fun. Not see fun - choose another content or game. > WvW=> So far I heard on the US side the mode is already in some kind of dead state. Depend what you want. Dead stat - is best state for this mode. Now you can choose any biudl and class, find random pug blob and get fun. On non-dead mode you will be prevented wait queue 1 hour or more, choose proper bild and don't have any freedom. You realy want this ? Me NOT. > ... and forcing the meta getting tighter with every nerf e.g we are forced to run with 2 healers in a group and not giving the mode any clear target to work towards. what? we not have meta as true meta. Take any class/biuld and play. If it not specific wvw guild run - you welcome wiht any build. > Fractals=> I'm getting worried with the every increasing difficulty of the new fractals don't worry. Do recommend and T1 or T2. >The new fractal Sunqua Peak in 100 cm has way too much need for CC and the light effects make in partial impossible to play it right. don't worry. Don't do cm100. This is CMS content. IT it not for all. > Raids => New content ? Also the have smiler tension problems like fractal only a bit worse. For me it new content. I am play from start. Some part hard for me. So I don't try farm it each week. Solved. > In general the problem is there is no vision how Arena.NET I think they have vision. And I don't see any reason to publish that vision to public opinion. This inner business strategy and very strange to public this. We see LS roadmap and EoD announce. Thats all. Need know more - ? be big investor and top manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > * BDO is $10, often discounted to $5, and has free content releases and sustains from its microtransactions *quite well*. Now you can make the argument that BDO is Pay to Win, I won't refute that because it arguably is...but it still muscled GW2 out of the way in MMOs in my opinion in terms of actual player retention. You've said a bunch of stuff that I agree with in this thread, but the above point is one I _completely agree_ with, and it pains me so deeply to observe it. More so than the other games in your list, BDO is guilty of delivering a vastly inferior player experience, with so many of the hallmarks of the typical Korean money-grubbers we see published all the time. However, the folks who make BDO know what their players want, which is flashy aesthetics and attractive female character models (and to be able to turn server chat into a cesspool of filth and memes without consequences). I think ultimately what makes BDO capable of retaining players goes back to another point you made earlier, which is the sinking feeling that ANet doesn't care as much about GW2 as it once did. I'm not sure what developer retention is like at Pearl Abyss (the folks who develop BDO), but it's pretty obvious that _someone_ over there still has a very strong vision of the game, a wide-ranging dedication to many different systems in the game, and the guts to push improvements to very old systems that many players might have given up on. In contrast, what we see increasingly in Tyria is the dusty corpses of many promising concepts that the devs just let die, and never revisit. So every time there's even a small pause in the trickle of content, players begin to worry that the devs have abandoned yet another form of content, and frankly it's hard to blame people for those fears. Not saying that BDO is perfect. In particular, they keep pushing UI 'enhancements' that nobody asked for, to a degree that makes me sincerely suspect they have some person with a questionable graphic design degree on their team whose insecurity drives them to pump out work product to justify their job. Indeed, I recently decided to take a 1- to 2-month break from it, because over the past month every time I logged out I realized I felt slightly worse than when I logged in. In contrast, I'm here in GW2 every day, and I don't really need a new content drop to keep me coming back. All I'm saying is, the player retention and 'passion for their own game' factors that @"KryTiKaL.3125" mentioned are things that I've noticed too, and I think those two factors go a very long way in why some other games (like BDO) just 'feel' like they have a more stable/secure future than GW2 does at the moment. It's not that I'm afraid GW2 will spiral into shutdown quickly or anything like that, but there's a much lesser feeling of trust in ANet's ability to steer the ship through stormy waters. I emphasize that it's just a _feeling_, and there's nothing really scientific or empirical about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 We have all been there, several times, across the years. The game has untouched potential plus issues that have been ignored - that a fact. But it also has playable content and frequently gets new story episodes and expansions, so it definitely _does_ have a future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicky.9751 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 as long as something is released on steam theres always people who will keep coming on to try it. most mmos are doing this "update every 3 month" mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 People still play World of Warcraft, Minecraft and many other technologically inferior games. So the problem is certainly not with it's technical aspects. Having said that, the game will live and die according to how fun and accessible it is. Things that DO help: -The game is free to play, thus the barrier to entry is very low. -MMOs are theme park games, they are only as good as the "rides" they have, GW2 has many many good rides. This that DO NOT help: -PvP balances is and has always been atrocious. Mesmer and Necromancer have been problem childs since the game inception. Explosive gameplay has also been a major issue, it was only this year they recognized that damage was astronomically high. Somewhere along the line, a very high positioned game designer got the idea that this game flow should be like a battle arena game like LoL, where you cast 3-4 skills and your opponent implodes, and they have not yet let that go. -Random technical issues, like these latency issues as of late. -Excessively complex boss fights. If i have to look it up, then it's too complex period end. -Excessive difficulty on content that is meant to be grinded over and over and over and over again, aka fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 You can speculate wether the exoac will find similar, more or less success than hot and pof found but for the shortterm gw2 does have a recorded future. That being said thats not the future the game needs imo, but the propability of that solely rests on the back of eod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 I like it, I just dont have time to play like I used to. I hope it is always here for me to come back to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"HotDelirium.7984" said: > Gw2 did always have this niche experimental energy to it so while it's fun I don't think they bring in that much revenue. The leadership and devs always kinda seem like they're doing content on their own schedules and in their own way and its not a tightly ran ship. That can be a good and bad thing; good because the moral is chill and they are creatively experimenting under less pressure and bad because pressure makes diamonds and we could have had 5 expansions out by now and many more things probably. Maybe thats how it worked in the previous years. But I believe the pressure increased a lot after nearly half the company was fired last year and after a lot people in leadership positions left the company and those positions are now (temporarily?) replaced by upper management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare.5129 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 I am 5+ year play on project where 50-150 players on server, and 50-150 bots, and sure that they alive. So for GuildWars2 term is 80-150 year more, till social and economic system changes. After AI own change probably we get one common project, or keep GuidWars2 inside that burble as sub part or common project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"voltaicbore.8012" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > * BDO is $10, often discounted to $5, and has free content releases and sustains from its microtransactions *quite well*. Now you can make the argument that BDO is Pay to Win, I won't refute that because it arguably is...but it still muscled GW2 out of the way in MMOs in my opinion in terms of actual player retention. > > You've said a bunch of stuff that I agree with in this thread, but the above point is one I _completely agree_ with, and it pains me so deeply to observe it. > > More so than the other games in your list, BDO is guilty of delivering a vastly inferior player experience, with so many of the hallmarks of the typical Korean money-grubbers we see published all the time. However, the folks who make BDO know what their players want, which is flashy aesthetics and attractive female character models (and to be able to turn server chat into a cesspool of filth and memes without consequences). > > I think ultimately what makes BDO capable of retaining players goes back to another point you made earlier, which is the sinking feeling that ANet doesn't care as much about GW2 as it once did. I'm not sure what developer retention is like at Pearl Abyss (the folks who develop BDO), but it's pretty obvious that _someone_ over there still has a very strong vision of the game, a wide-ranging dedication to many different systems in the game, and the guts to push improvements to very old systems that many players might have given up on. In contrast, what we see increasingly in Tyria is the dusty corpses of many promising concepts that the devs just let die, and never revisit. So every time there's even a small pause in the trickle of content, players begin to worry that the devs have abandoned yet another form of content, and frankly it's hard to blame people for those fears. > > Not saying that BDO is perfect. In particular, they keep pushing UI 'enhancements' that nobody asked for, to a degree that makes me sincerely suspect they have some person with a questionable graphic design degree on their team whose insecurity drives them to pump out work product to justify their job. Indeed, I recently decided to take a 1- to 2-month break from it, because over the past month every time I logged out I realized I felt slightly worse than when I logged in. In contrast, I'm here in GW2 every day, and I don't really need a new content drop to keep me coming back. > > All I'm saying is, the player retention and 'passion for their own game' factors that @"KryTiKaL.3125" mentioned are things that I've noticed too, and I think those two factors go a very long way in why some other games (like BDO) just 'feel' like they have a more stable/secure future than GW2 does at the moment. It's not that I'm afraid GW2 will spiral into shutdown quickly or anything like that, but there's a much lesser feeling of trust in ANet's ability to steer the ship through stormy waters. I emphasize that it's just a _feeling_, and there's nothing really scientific or empirical about it. please, BDO has good graphics and combat, but the rest is utter garbage. have fun doing the same "mini-game" over and over, just to unlock new quests. and the story...dear lord. it felt like a monty python sketch without any humor. i bought a couple of skins, and dumped it after a couple of weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"voltaicbore.8012" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > * BDO is $10, often discounted to $5, and has free content releases and sustains from its microtransactions *quite well*. Now you can make the argument that BDO is Pay to Win, I won't refute that because it arguably is...but it still muscled GW2 out of the way in MMOs in my opinion in terms of actual player retention. > > > > You've said a bunch of stuff that I agree with in this thread, but the above point is one I _completely agree_ with, and it pains me so deeply to observe it. > > > > More so than the other games in your list, BDO is guilty of delivering a vastly inferior player experience, with so many of the hallmarks of the typical Korean money-grubbers we see published all the time. However, the folks who make BDO know what their players want, which is flashy aesthetics and attractive female character models (and to be able to turn server chat into a cesspool of filth and memes without consequences). > > > > I think ultimately what makes BDO capable of retaining players goes back to another point you made earlier, which is the sinking feeling that ANet doesn't care as much about GW2 as it once did. I'm not sure what developer retention is like at Pearl Abyss (the folks who develop BDO), but it's pretty obvious that _someone_ over there still has a very strong vision of the game, a wide-ranging dedication to many different systems in the game, and the guts to push improvements to very old systems that many players might have given up on. In contrast, what we see increasingly in Tyria is the dusty corpses of many promising concepts that the devs just let die, and never revisit. So every time there's even a small pause in the trickle of content, players begin to worry that the devs have abandoned yet another form of content, and frankly it's hard to blame people for those fears. > > > > Not saying that BDO is perfect. In particular, they keep pushing UI 'enhancements' that nobody asked for, to a degree that makes me sincerely suspect they have some person with a questionable graphic design degree on their team whose insecurity drives them to pump out work product to justify their job. Indeed, I recently decided to take a 1- to 2-month break from it, because over the past month every time I logged out I realized I felt slightly worse than when I logged in. In contrast, I'm here in GW2 every day, and I don't really need a new content drop to keep me coming back. > > > > All I'm saying is, the player retention and 'passion for their own game' factors that @"KryTiKaL.3125" mentioned are things that I've noticed too, and I think those two factors go a very long way in why some other games (like BDO) just 'feel' like they have a more stable/secure future than GW2 does at the moment. It's not that I'm afraid GW2 will spiral into shutdown quickly or anything like that, but there's a much lesser feeling of trust in ANet's ability to steer the ship through stormy waters. I emphasize that it's just a _feeling_, and there's nothing really scientific or empirical about it. > > please, BDO has good graphics and combat, but the rest is utter garbage. have fun doing the same "mini-game" over and over, just to unlock new quests. > and the story...dear lord. it felt like a monty python sketch without any humor. i bought a couple of skins, and dumped it after a couple of weeks. For you, sure, but others seem to enjoy it more than enough to where it retains players much more consistently and has a higher active population than GW2 does. You have your opinion, others have theirs, so at least try to be objective about how you perceive a game. For instance, I abhor ESO for a variety of reasons; clunky combat, leveling is slow, questing is monotonous. However it still achieves, arguably, a better PvE experience than GW2 for instance, as well as allowing for a fairly wide range of build variety. Now I'll never go back to playing it for the aforementioned reasons, but there are still things that it does that one should acknowledge as being pros, or at the very least being reasons for why people would play it. With BDO, some people like the grind, they like the constant and everlasting upgrading to their gear and character and also trying out the newer grind areas as well as new classes that release. Also a big factor with what I believe keeps people playing BDO is the literal constant flow of ingame events whether they have to do with just being logged in or logging in daily for reset for rewards, but there are also events with loot drops from mobs or from fishing, along with the new Season server stuff they've added recently. Makes it kinda worth it a little bit to just constantly be playing to take advantage of those things. Also combat and the visuals I feel are pretty much the biggest factors that keep people around, they clearly can get over the arguably pay to win aspects as well as the grinding because of those things. Again it isn't perfect, no game is, but clearly its doing something right. Or at least doing something more than ANet is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > Again it isn't perfect, no game is, but clearly its doing something right. Or at least doing something more than ANet is. Exactly! Then again, we were already of one mind on the issue, so I guess this is expected lol. > @"battledrone.8315" said: > please, BDO has good graphics and combat, but the rest is utter garbage. have fun doing the same "mini-game" over and over, just to unlock new quests. > and the story...dear lord. it felt like a monty python sketch without any humor. i bought a couple of skins, and dumped it after a couple of weeks. TLDR; you're right, so much about BDO was garbage, and still is garbage. But that's my point - GW2 should be blowing it out of the water, but if I had to choose which game has a more stable/secure/profitable future, it's BDO. It's probably because Pearl Abyss keeps improving and completely reworking BDO systems as needed, while ANet keeps abandoning things half-baked. Not sure when you tried it, but it's entirely possible we had very different experiences of the game. If you played BDO a few years ago for a couple weeks, the game you played is very different from what it is now. There are new ways to grind out massive amounts of silver, sailing is more accessible and cannon combat greatly improved, 4 new classes, several new zones, etc. They added the equivalent of a _second_ elite spec to all but two of the classes, and frankly that one move alone rescued several previously severely handicapped classes. They've also instituted seasonal servers, which allow players to pretty much grind out a guaranteed set of the equivalent of exotic gear, which usually takes an enormous amount of RNG, tears of rage, and expense to attain. Pearl Abyss could simply have... not improved any of these things, as the flashy visuals and gambling addiction serves as the core draw for most players, it seems. But PA seems to have faith in their original vision of various systems having relevance to the game, and they don't just abandon stuff. It sometimes takes a while, but things get reworked until they matter again, and character progression (when it comes to money, gear, skills, or level) can be done in a very wide variety of ways. Hilariously, they actually improved the BDO "story", which I wrongly considered an utterly unfixable trash fire. Initially, it was exactly as you say - story was complete garbage written by Google Translate. However, with the release of the male Archer class, they reworked the existing storylines to make some more sense, with better English localization. The story quests themselves are still the most generic and un-creative fetch/kill quests, but the overall narrative they attempt to tell has improved significantly. The new story actually includes a few routes that allow players who've accumulated the right lore achievements to greatly accelerate certain story steps. The new story actually makes a greater attempt to explain why the game world looks the way it does, even though it's nothing in comparison to the care that ANet demonstrates in worldbuilding Tyria. GW2... leaves a lot on the table, to turn their own words against them. Where are alliances? Where is the new spvp balance cadence after the Feb megapatch? Dungeons are abandoned, fractals come in a trickle, raids are looking increasingly abandoned, and strikes might be going that way soon as well. One of the most hyped things we actually got many years too late, build+gear templates, were vastly inferior to the third party solution we used to have, and was very heavily monetized. Things get started all the time in GW2, and many of them end up abandoned before they really fulfill their potential. ANet seems to have made a habit of this, and over time the game is going to accumulate more and more dead systems that could have been (but never will become) cool. So why am I quitting BDO for at least a month (probably several months, if not a year) while I am still constantly playing GW2? RNG, grinding, and cash shop are still the backbone of BDO. I can't tolerate that for very long, and I have to step back. Apparently many mmo players have a much higher tolerance for that, and it keeps BDO's player counts and money ledgers looking good. GW2 in contrast has almost no grind, and what little grind exists is nothing in comparison to BDO's or other mmos' grinds. That's what it comes down to - my GW2 account is now at a point where I can make an insta-80 with xp tomes, gear them out in exotics, send them out on some random adventure, then delete it on a whim while not making a big dent in my time or in-game resources. My BDO account is nowhere near as accomplished as my GW2 one is, but to make meaningful progress there I have to grind too much. The sad thing is, despite how mediocre my GW2 account is compared to many veterans (only 700 liquid gold at the moment, only 1 set of legendary armor, 6 legendary weps, 24K AP, etc.) I think a large proportion of the player base never gets to where I am, and can't enjoy the same level of comfort and freedom to do whatever and go wherever in the game world. Without that freedom, I can see why not enough players share my position of not needing as many content updates to stay happy with GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > The essence is the revenue model in GW2. It is different from games with monthly fees. Not only does it mean they have less resources, but also that they depend more on sales from the game and it's expansions. This has always been the case. > It also mean they focus more on what is new and not to polish up what is old. What is old is good enough to be an advertisement for the payed content. And that, ironically, is a problem. Because that old part is _not_ good enough. I mean, if you join the game, and keep running into types of content and mechanics, and when you look a bit closer you realize that many of those content types and mechanics got abandoned halfway - which is also a clear indication that _the same will happen to any new stuff in the future_ - it's not going to send a positive message at all. > > Another element here is addiction. Why would one care how well things are? unless it is cause you care too much. It is just a game. Arenanet has no financial interest in you to keep playing. They do. Unlike web/phone clickers, MMORPG financial model - yes, even the non-sub one - is not based around a high turnout low retention idea. The market (well, at least in the West - it can be a little bit different in Asia) is just way too small for that to work. MMORPGs aim at longterm player retention. One of the reasons i have just mentioned - the main wave of new players is usually at the very beginning, and after that you can get any significant number of new ones only if your game is doing exceptionally well. Which it obviously is not doing if it happpens to shed lots of players left and right. Another is that one of the main factors people consider when judging MMORPGs is player population. You _need_ a lot of players, even non-paying ones, in order to persuade the whales to spend anything. And you need a perception of stability, that cannot be maintained in a game that doesn't care if veterans will keep playing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"Kurrilino.2706" said: > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > @"Kurrilino.2706" said: > > > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > > > It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction! > > > > > > > > GW2 doesnt have the eternal life, but it is far from death. People always have had concerns and it is primarly cause the current course isn't yours. I do think it is why Arenanet is doing a good job here. > > > > > > The main problem i see with your point is, that there isn't a single person saying "yes, it's my course" > > > Look at what happened to Star Wars, when they tried to fix the problems with the different fan groups by pleasing none of them. > > > > > > In general people play a game because they enjoy it. The groups of people who are not entertained are growing too big. > > > This is why the weekly doom and gloom thread pops up. > > > I came to term, with me not being the chosen target group and i am fine with that. But i also don't know anyone who is. > > > I wish there would be a more obvious path they go so people can make up their mind. Yes, they would lose the one or other group > > > but strengthen the main target group. Until then everyone turns their back on GW2 instead just a couple of people > > > > The main problem I see with your post is the lack of mandate. It seems often that using a mandate strenghtens an argument you are making. (Saying that no just you, but a lot of others are saying the same thing and claiming that you speak on their behalf). > > > > So where does your mandate come from? Why would those people not voice themself? Who are the people you claim to speak for? > > > > **I see people saying they like the icebrood saga releases. ** > > > > I do not speak for someone or need a mandate and also realize that you try to water down a legit argument. > "I see people saying they like the icebrood saga releases" > This phrase already shows that you are more or less trolling, since there is hard evidence saying exactly the opposite. > You may scroll back a couple of pages, where people made a poll asking, if people like the Ice Brood Saga. > 85% of the people said that they didn't like it and were really poised to voice their opinion in the comments. > > So instead of making stuff up what people saying, just get real evidence to support any of your points. > > A forum poll is not real evidence either as it doesn't adequately represent a significant enough sample size with which to draw conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"voltaicbore.8012" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > * BDO is $10, often discounted to $5, and has free content releases and sustains from its microtransactions *quite well*. Now you can make the argument that BDO is Pay to Win, I won't refute that because it arguably is...but it still muscled GW2 out of the way in MMOs in my opinion in terms of actual player retention. > > > > > > You've said a bunch of stuff that I agree with in this thread, but the above point is one I _completely agree_ with, and it pains me so deeply to observe it. > > > > > > More so than the other games in your list, BDO is guilty of delivering a vastly inferior player experience, with so many of the hallmarks of the typical Korean money-grubbers we see published all the time. However, the folks who make BDO know what their players want, which is flashy aesthetics and attractive female character models (and to be able to turn server chat into a cesspool of filth and memes without consequences). > > > > > > I think ultimately what makes BDO capable of retaining players goes back to another point you made earlier, which is the sinking feeling that ANet doesn't care as much about GW2 as it once did. I'm not sure what developer retention is like at Pearl Abyss (the folks who develop BDO), but it's pretty obvious that _someone_ over there still has a very strong vision of the game, a wide-ranging dedication to many different systems in the game, and the guts to push improvements to very old systems that many players might have given up on. In contrast, what we see increasingly in Tyria is the dusty corpses of many promising concepts that the devs just let die, and never revisit. So every time there's even a small pause in the trickle of content, players begin to worry that the devs have abandoned yet another form of content, and frankly it's hard to blame people for those fears. > > > > > > Not saying that BDO is perfect. In particular, they keep pushing UI 'enhancements' that nobody asked for, to a degree that makes me sincerely suspect they have some person with a questionable graphic design degree on their team whose insecurity drives them to pump out work product to justify their job. Indeed, I recently decided to take a 1- to 2-month break from it, because over the past month every time I logged out I realized I felt slightly worse than when I logged in. In contrast, I'm here in GW2 every day, and I don't really need a new content drop to keep me coming back. > > > > > > All I'm saying is, the player retention and 'passion for their own game' factors that @"KryTiKaL.3125" mentioned are things that I've noticed too, and I think those two factors go a very long way in why some other games (like BDO) just 'feel' like they have a more stable/secure future than GW2 does at the moment. It's not that I'm afraid GW2 will spiral into shutdown quickly or anything like that, but there's a much lesser feeling of trust in ANet's ability to steer the ship through stormy waters. I emphasize that it's just a _feeling_, and there's nothing really scientific or empirical about it. > > > > please, BDO has good graphics and combat, but the rest is utter garbage. have fun doing the same "mini-game" over and over, just to unlock new quests. > > and the story...dear lord. it felt like a monty python sketch without any humor. i bought a couple of skins, and dumped it after a couple of weeks. > > For you, sure, but others seem to enjoy it more than enough to where it retains players much more consistently and has a higher active population than GW2 does. You have your opinion, others have theirs, so at least try to be objective about how you perceive a game. For instance, I abhor ESO for a variety of reasons; clunky combat, leveling is slow, questing is monotonous. However it still achieves, arguably, a better PvE experience than GW2 for instance, as well as allowing for a fairly wide range of build variety. Now I'll never go back to playing it for the aforementioned reasons, but there are still things that it does that one should acknowledge as being pros, or at the very least being reasons for why people would play it. With BDO, some people like the grind, they like the constant and everlasting upgrading to their gear and character and also trying out the newer grind areas as well as new classes that release. > > Also a big factor with what I believe keeps people playing BDO is the literal constant flow of ingame events whether they have to do with just being logged in or logging in daily for reset for rewards, but there are also events with loot drops from mobs or from fishing, along with the new Season server stuff they've added recently. Makes it kinda worth it a little bit to just constantly be playing to take advantage of those things. Also combat and the visuals I feel are pretty much the biggest factors that keep people around, they clearly can get over the arguably pay to win aspects as well as the grinding because of those things. > > Again it isn't perfect, no game is, but clearly its doing something right. Or at least doing something more than ANet is. > @"voltaicbore.8012" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > Again it isn't perfect, no game is, but clearly its doing something right. Or at least doing something more than ANet is. > > Exactly! Then again, we were already of one mind on the issue, so I guess this is expected lol. > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > please, BDO has good graphics and combat, but the rest is utter garbage. have fun doing the same "mini-game" over and over, just to unlock new quests. > > and the story...dear lord. it felt like a monty python sketch without any humor. i bought a couple of skins, and dumped it after a couple of weeks. > > > TLDR; you're right, so much about BDO was garbage, and still is garbage. But that's my point - GW2 should be blowing it out of the water, but if I had to choose which game has a more stable/secure/profitable future, it's BDO. It's probably because Pearl Abyss keeps improving and completely reworking BDO systems as needed, while ANet keeps abandoning things half-baked. > > Not sure when you tried it, but it's entirely possible we had very different experiences of the game. If you played BDO a few years ago for a couple weeks, the game you played is very different from what it is now. > > There are new ways to grind out massive amounts of silver, sailing is more accessible and cannon combat greatly improved, 4 new classes, several new zones, etc. They added the equivalent of a _second_ elite spec to all but two of the classes, and frankly that one move alone rescued several previously severely handicapped classes. They've also instituted seasonal servers, which allow players to pretty much grind out a guaranteed set of the equivalent of exotic gear, which usually takes an enormous amount of RNG, tears of rage, and expense to attain. Pearl Abyss could simply have... not improved any of these things, as the flashy visuals and gambling addiction serves as the core draw for most players, it seems. But PA seems to have faith in their original vision of various systems having relevance to the game, and they don't just abandon stuff. It sometimes takes a while, but things get reworked until they matter again, and character progression (when it comes to money, gear, skills, or level) can be done in a very wide variety of ways. > > Hilariously, they actually improved the BDO "story", which I wrongly considered an utterly unfixable trash fire. Initially, it was exactly as you say - story was complete garbage written by Google Translate. However, with the release of the male Archer class, they reworked the existing storylines to make some more sense, with better English localization. The story quests themselves are still the most generic and un-creative fetch/kill quests, but the overall narrative they attempt to tell has improved significantly. The new story actually includes a few routes that allow players who've accumulated the right lore achievements to greatly accelerate certain story steps. The new story actually makes a greater attempt to explain why the game world looks the way it does, even though it's nothing in comparison to the care that ANet demonstrates in worldbuilding Tyria. > > GW2... leaves a lot on the table, to turn their own words against them. Where are alliances? Where is the new spvp balance cadence after the Feb megapatch? Dungeons are abandoned, fractals come in a trickle, raids are looking increasingly abandoned, and strikes might be going that way soon as well. One of the most hyped things we actually got many years too late, build+gear templates, were vastly inferior to the third party solution we used to have, and was very heavily monetized. Things get started all the time in GW2, and many of them end up abandoned before they really fulfill their potential. ANet seems to have made a habit of this, and over time the game is going to accumulate more and more dead systems that could have been (but never will become) cool. > > So why am I quitting BDO for at least a month (probably several months, if not a year) while I am still constantly playing GW2? RNG, grinding, and cash shop are still the backbone of BDO. I can't tolerate that for very long, and I have to step back. Apparently many mmo players have a much higher tolerance for that, and it keeps BDO's player counts and money ledgers looking good. GW2 in contrast has almost no grind, and what little grind exists is nothing in comparison to BDO's or other mmos' grinds. > > That's what it comes down to - my GW2 account is now at a point where I can make an insta-80 with xp tomes, gear them out in exotics, send them out on some random adventure, then delete it on a whim while not making a big dent in my time or in-game resources. My BDO account is nowhere near as accomplished as my GW2 one is, but to make meaningful progress there I have to grind too much. > > The sad thing is, despite how mediocre my GW2 account is compared to many veterans (only 700 liquid gold at the moment, only 1 set of legendary armor, 6 legendary weps, 24K AP, etc.) I think a large proportion of the player base never gets to where I am, and can't enjoy the same level of comfort and freedom to do whatever and go wherever in the game world. Without that freedom, I can see why not enough players share my position of not needing as many content updates to stay happy with GW2. I would like to add as someone who recently has stepped away, and likely will remain away from guild wars 2. (I will unlock the episodes, but playing them? Im not so sure anymore) I can say confidently enough that based upon my perception, time and willingness to give them enough rope so to speak that I have little faith that guild wars 2 will ever change. I've been with this game since factions, I've been a pretty strong guild wars fan as I grew up with the game but over the time since guild wars 2 came out I've felt less and less invested. The reason I believe that this is the case, and why BDO and ESO retains their players is the content is just better. You can defend guild wars 2 all you want but their content ACROSS all the game modes; Is laughable and meaningless even within the confines of their own game. Too many game modes have been left to rot, the balance changes feel like destructive knee jerk reactions and it seems like no one cares/enjoys developing the game. Without their enjoyment and passion, the games content becomes a reflection of their lack of motivation/care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > I would like to add as someone who recently has stepped away, and likely will remain away from guild wars 2. (I will unlock the episodes, but playing them? Im not so sure anymore) I can say confidently enough that based upon my perception, time and willingness to give them enough rope so to speak that I have little faith that guild wars 2 will ever change. I've been with this game since factions, I've been a pretty strong guild wars fan as I grew up with the game but over the time since guild wars 2 came out I've felt less and less invested. > > The reason I believe that this is the case, and why BDO and ESO retains their players is the content is just better. You can defend guild wars 2 all you want but their content ACROSS all the game modes; Is laughable and meaningless even within the confines of their own game. Too many game modes have been left to rot, the balance changes feel like destructive knee jerk reactions and it seems like no one cares/enjoys developing the game. Without their enjoyment and passion, the games content becomes a reflection of their lack of motivation/care. > Sad to hear that, you've been with GW a long time. "Left to rot" sums it up nicely. For all the smart things that GW2 does, there's just too much left rotting by the wayside, and the bad is competing pretty hard with the good. For me the good still outweighs the bad, and I'm hoping EoD pushes things farther in the good direction, but we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 > @"voltaicbore.8012" said: > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > I would like to add as someone who recently has stepped away, and likely will remain away from guild wars 2. (I will unlock the episodes, but playing them? Im not so sure anymore) I can say confidently enough that based upon my perception, time and willingness to give them enough rope so to speak that I have little faith that guild wars 2 will ever change. I've been with this game since factions, I've been a pretty strong guild wars fan as I grew up with the game but over the time since guild wars 2 came out I've felt less and less invested. > > > > The reason I believe that this is the case, and why BDO and ESO retains their players is the content is just better. You can defend guild wars 2 all you want but their content ACROSS all the game modes; Is laughable and meaningless even within the confines of their own game. Too many game modes have been left to rot, the balance changes feel like destructive knee jerk reactions and it seems like no one cares/enjoys developing the game. Without their enjoyment and passion, the games content becomes a reflection of their lack of motivation/care. > > > Sad to hear that, you've been with GW a long time. > > "Left to rot" sums it up nicely. For all the smart things that GW2 does, there's just too much left rotting by the wayside, and the bad is competing pretty hard with the good. For me the good still outweighs the bad, and I'm hoping EoD pushes things farther in the good direction, but we'll see. > I want EoD to be good, I Really do. I just feel like I have no hope because to me PoF was just "mounts" and thats it, the E-specs never grabbed me and the theme/setting never did either. Honestly I Really wanted a norn expansion going far into the north, farther than we had ever been but that seems like a pipe dream now which saddens me greatly. I dont want to walk away... but at this stage... I dont know it just feels like the Dev's dont want me or those like me here; They abandoned most of what I found fun and continue with stuff I either dont or things that to me serve little purpose. Hopefully Ill see you in EoD, if not then I hope you enjoy your adventure and all those who go on to follow do as well. But as a guild wars fan? The game doesn't feel like guild wars, and the world doesn't feel like tyria anymore.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"voltaicbore.8012" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > * BDO is $10, often discounted to $5, and has free content releases and sustains from its microtransactions *quite well*. Now you can make the argument that BDO is Pay to Win, I won't refute that because it arguably is...but it still muscled GW2 out of the way in MMOs in my opinion in terms of actual player retention. > > > > > > You've said a bunch of stuff that I agree with in this thread, but the above point is one I _completely agree_ with, and it pains me so deeply to observe it. > > > > > > More so than the other games in your list, BDO is guilty of delivering a vastly inferior player experience, with so many of the hallmarks of the typical Korean money-grubbers we see published all the time. However, the folks who make BDO know what their players want, which is flashy aesthetics and attractive female character models (and to be able to turn server chat into a cesspool of filth and memes without consequences). > > > > > > I think ultimately what makes BDO capable of retaining players goes back to another point you made earlier, which is the sinking feeling that ANet doesn't care as much about GW2 as it once did. I'm not sure what developer retention is like at Pearl Abyss (the folks who develop BDO), but it's pretty obvious that _someone_ over there still has a very strong vision of the game, a wide-ranging dedication to many different systems in the game, and the guts to push improvements to very old systems that many players might have given up on. In contrast, what we see increasingly in Tyria is the dusty corpses of many promising concepts that the devs just let die, and never revisit. So every time there's even a small pause in the trickle of content, players begin to worry that the devs have abandoned yet another form of content, and frankly it's hard to blame people for those fears. > > > > > > Not saying that BDO is perfect. In particular, they keep pushing UI 'enhancements' that nobody asked for, to a degree that makes me sincerely suspect they have some person with a questionable graphic design degree on their team whose insecurity drives them to pump out work product to justify their job. Indeed, I recently decided to take a 1- to 2-month break from it, because over the past month every time I logged out I realized I felt slightly worse than when I logged in. In contrast, I'm here in GW2 every day, and I don't really need a new content drop to keep me coming back. > > > > > > All I'm saying is, the player retention and 'passion for their own game' factors that @"KryTiKaL.3125" mentioned are things that I've noticed too, and I think those two factors go a very long way in why some other games (like BDO) just 'feel' like they have a more stable/secure future than GW2 does at the moment. It's not that I'm afraid GW2 will spiral into shutdown quickly or anything like that, but there's a much lesser feeling of trust in ANet's ability to steer the ship through stormy waters. I emphasize that it's just a _feeling_, and there's nothing really scientific or empirical about it. > > > > please, BDO has good graphics and combat, but the rest is utter garbage. have fun doing the same "mini-game" over and over, just to unlock new quests. > > and the story...dear lord. it felt like a monty python sketch without any humor. i bought a couple of skins, and dumped it after a couple of weeks. > > For you, sure, but others seem to enjoy it more than enough to where it retains players much more consistently and has a higher active population than GW2 does. You have your opinion, others have theirs, so at least try to be objective about how you perceive a game. For instance, I abhor ESO for a variety of reasons; clunky combat, leveling is slow, questing is monotonous. However it still achieves, arguably, a better PvE experience than GW2 for instance, as well as allowing for a fairly wide range of build variety. Now I'll never go back to playing it for the aforementioned reasons, but there are still things that it does that one should acknowledge as being pros, or at the very least being reasons for why people would play it. With BDO, some people like the grind, they like the constant and everlasting upgrading to their gear and character and also trying out the newer grind areas as well as new classes that release. > > Also a big factor with what I believe keeps people playing BDO is the literal constant flow of ingame events whether they have to do with just being logged in or logging in daily for reset for rewards, but there are also events with loot drops from mobs or from fishing, along with the new Season server stuff they've added recently. Makes it kinda worth it a little bit to just constantly be playing to take advantage of those things. Also combat and the visuals I feel are pretty much the biggest factors that keep people around, they clearly can get over the arguably pay to win aspects as well as the grinding because of those things. > > Again it isn't perfect, no game is, but clearly its doing something right. Or at least doing something more than ANet is. one thing i like, is that they have made 2 new classes since launch. but as long as that converstion game is there, i wont return. it may be realistic, but it is also some of the most boring content padding i have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: >Too many game modes have been left to rot, the balance changes feel like destructive knee jerk reactions and it seems like no one cares/enjoys developing the game. >Without their enjoyment and passion, the games content becomes a reflection of their lack of motivation/care. To me it seems Anet had very ambitous goals to make a game that revolutionaries the MMO(RPG) genre. And they did a lot of things better than in other games. But in the end, Anet missed its own goals with a lot of things and instead on improving on existing game parts/modes/systems they often abandon existing things and start new experiments (which are hit and miss) from scratch. It also seems, that they once created a great game, but since then they haven't really understood their own strength and customers. I think there are still many qualified and motivated developers at Anet. But the management of the company lost its clear vision and direction for the game a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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