Fipmip.7219 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 I'm often wondering why Anet sticks to archaic mob placement. Here's my question, what purpose do mobs standing around on bland, open, textured terrain actually serve? I'm talking about the type of terrain that is meant to be sped past on a mount while en route to another destination, for example the area in istan around the fort with a few motionless corsairs standing around, the area around the water in the elon riverlands with armoured mordant crescent standing stock still in the shallows, and so on. This sort of thing lends itself to typical MMO design, and for what? These mobs arent very difficult, they arent supposed to be farmed (there are anti farming mechanics in the game), they dont drop anything significant that cant be found elsewhere in higher densities... so why? It seems like their only interaction with the player is to annoy them when they stop for a second for whatever reason. It's not that mobs have long aggro ranges and hit hard, its that they are ubiquitous and inescapable. trying to leash just ends up running into more of these awkward mobs just standing there in a field seemingly for the sole purpose of stopping you from mounting. I remember archeage was extremely guilty of this, placing heavily armoured dudes in fields that seemed to exist for no other reason than 'MMOs are designed this way' I think anet should make more effort to put enemy NPCs into groups that require a more decisive effort with on the players part to engage with. They should make sense with the environment, for example making it so intelligent mobs are usually only found manning camps and patrolling routes, and wildlife mobs are put into small herds or occupy small nests or occasionally stalk around wide areas, and in general just make it look like NPCs have more to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchslein.8639 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"Fipmip.7219" said: > I'm often wondering why Anet sticks to archaic mob placement. > > Here's my question, what purpose do mobs standing around on bland, open, textured terrain actually serve? I'm talking about the type of terrain that is meant to be sped past on a mount while en route to another destination, for example the area in istan around the fort with a few motionless corsairs standing around, the area around the water in the elon riverlands with armoured mordant crescent standing stock still in the shallows, and so on. > This sort of thing lends itself to typical MMO design, and for what? These mobs arent very difficult, they arent supposed to be farmed (there are anti farming mechanics in the game), they dont drop anything significant that cant be found elsewhere in higher densities... so why? It seems like their only interaction with the player is to annoy them when they stop for a second for whatever reason. It's not that mobs have long aggro ranges and hit hard, its that they are ubiquitous and inescapable. trying to leash just ends up running into more of these awkward mobs just standing there in a field seemingly for the sole purpose of stopping you from mounting. I remember archeage was extremely guilty of this, placing heavily armoured dudes in fields that seemed to exist for no other reason than 'MMOs are designed this way' > > I think anet should make more effort to put enemy NPCs into groups that require a more decisive effort with on the players part to engage with. They should make sense with the environment, for example making it so intelligent mobs are usually only found manning camps and patrolling routes, and wildlife mobs are put into small herds or occupy small nests or occasionally stalk around wide areas, and in general just make it look like NPCs have more to do. I think this should not be so easy to implement. A big part of an MMO is killing mobs for quests or achievements. And if you reduce the number you would automatically make everything even grindier. But I share the opinion that there are many mob placements that make little sense in my eyes. I mean, war zone or not. Where is the sense to spread everything you have over every centimeter of the map? Maybe there is a sense to it that I don't see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fipmip.7219 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > @"Fipmip.7219" said: > > I'm often wondering why Anet sticks to archaic mob placement. > > > > Here's my question, what purpose do mobs standing around on bland, open, textured terrain actually serve? I'm talking about the type of terrain that is meant to be sped past on a mount while en route to another destination, for example the area in istan around the fort with a few motionless corsairs standing around, the area around the water in the elon riverlands with armoured mordant crescent standing stock still in the shallows, and so on. > > This sort of thing lends itself to typical MMO design, and for what? These mobs arent very difficult, they arent supposed to be farmed (there are anti farming mechanics in the game), they dont drop anything significant that cant be found elsewhere in higher densities... so why? It seems like their only interaction with the player is to annoy them when they stop for a second for whatever reason. It's not that mobs have long aggro ranges and hit hard, its that they are ubiquitous and inescapable. trying to leash just ends up running into more of these awkward mobs just standing there in a field seemingly for the sole purpose of stopping you from mounting. I remember archeage was extremely guilty of this, placing heavily armoured dudes in fields that seemed to exist for no other reason than 'MMOs are designed this way' > > > > I think anet should make more effort to put enemy NPCs into groups that require a more decisive effort with on the players part to engage with. They should make sense with the environment, for example making it so intelligent mobs are usually only found manning camps and patrolling routes, and wildlife mobs are put into small herds or occupy small nests or occasionally stalk around wide areas, and in general just make it look like NPCs have more to do. > > I think this should not be so easy to implement. A big part of an MMO is killing mobs for quests or achievements. And if you reduce the number you would automatically make everything even grindier. > > But I share the opinion that there are many mob placements that make little sense in my eyes. I mean, war zone or not. Where is the sense to spread everything you have over every centimeter of the map? > Maybe there is a sense to it that I don't see? you dont reduce mobs, you just put them in places closer together, that make more sense and require more active seeking on the players account to interact with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchslein.8639 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"Fipmip.7219" said: > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > > @"Fipmip.7219" said: > > > I'm often wondering why Anet sticks to archaic mob placement. > > > > > > Here's my question, what purpose do mobs standing around on bland, open, textured terrain actually serve? I'm talking about the type of terrain that is meant to be sped past on a mount while en route to another destination, for example the area in istan around the fort with a few motionless corsairs standing around, the area around the water in the elon riverlands with armoured mordant crescent standing stock still in the shallows, and so on. > > > This sort of thing lends itself to typical MMO design, and for what? These mobs arent very difficult, they arent supposed to be farmed (there are anti farming mechanics in the game), they dont drop anything significant that cant be found elsewhere in higher densities... so why? It seems like their only interaction with the player is to annoy them when they stop for a second for whatever reason. It's not that mobs have long aggro ranges and hit hard, its that they are ubiquitous and inescapable. trying to leash just ends up running into more of these awkward mobs just standing there in a field seemingly for the sole purpose of stopping you from mounting. I remember archeage was extremely guilty of this, placing heavily armoured dudes in fields that seemed to exist for no other reason than 'MMOs are designed this way' > > > > > > I think anet should make more effort to put enemy NPCs into groups that require a more decisive effort with on the players part to engage with. They should make sense with the environment, for example making it so intelligent mobs are usually only found manning camps and patrolling routes, and wildlife mobs are put into small herds or occupy small nests or occasionally stalk around wide areas, and in general just make it look like NPCs have more to do. > > > > I think this should not be so easy to implement. A big part of an MMO is killing mobs for quests or achievements. And if you reduce the number you would automatically make everything even grindier. > > > > But I share the opinion that there are many mob placements that make little sense in my eyes. I mean, war zone or not. Where is the sense to spread everything you have over every centimeter of the map? > > Maybe there is a sense to it that I don't see? > > you dont reduce mobs, you just put them in places closer together, that make more sense and require more active seeking on the players account to interact with. Ah, okay. Yep, that would make more sense than placing individual mobs everywhere, especially in war zones. Whereby this could lead to increased AFK farms, which is often complained about in the forum. Cause you can't make the mobs too hard because then it's a matter of how much effort you have to invest for a simple heart, for example, which you might have to do 1000 times for a achievement and so on. I think a balanced mixture would be nice. But there are also so many factors ... I think from such a discussion I'm out because I atm can not really grasp how that is implemented in the game then and unfolds its effect in an MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Because I'm not giving my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would argue that the following are opinions. As valid as anyone else's, but opinions even so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > >but that's not a problem that needs to be fixed. It's just a different approach you have to take to play that part of the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right ... and 'annoying' isn't a reason to get it changed ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not following the conversation here. Yes, THAT is an opinion ... but I have presented certain facts that make it evident aggro range doesn't need to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aggro range doesn't prevent people from completing content. > > > > > > > > > > Players disliking something doesn't mean it's a problem that needs to be fixed. > > > > > > > > > > Anet set the Aggro range of mobs intentionally in PoF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm continually presenting these factual statements as the reason range aggro doesn't need to change; some people think pointing out opinions invalidate those facts ... it doesn't. Hey, if you have some FACTS that shows it should change, let's hear them. Otherwise, telling me things I said that are my opinion is just a big nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's true that aggro range does not prevent people from completing content. But who chose this as the metric by which we determine whether or not something is problematic or needs to be fixed? ANet does a lot of things. They also change a lot of things. What's your point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is simple: the three facts I presented are evidence this doesn't need to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you yourself noted previously, it isn't up to players to determine what "needs" to change. Having said that, one purpose of the forum is to communicate player feedback. So, your opinion is noted (as little or as much as anyone else's!), but has no intrinsic value above that of any other person's opinion on this matter. The metric you've chosen to support your claim is arbitrary and meaningless, just as that of the rest of us, again because it is not up to us to determine what needs to change. We're simply sharing our opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, the increased aggro range of PoF is annoying and I would prefer HoT aggro ranges. I am in no way suggesting that it "must" change or that I have the power to facilitate that change beyond providing player feedback. So, here I am doing just that. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not here to debate people's opinions ... that's a worthless exercise. With the game history and factual information, it's evident that aggro range doesn't need to decrease in PoF. Maybe you believe that 'opinions' matter more than game intent and mechanics in this case ... if that was true, you have to ask yourself why Anet increased aggro range in PoF regardless of 'opinions'. > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts in the form of statements or statistics to back up your 'facts'? > > > > > > > > Obtena's central argument is that only things which prevent players from completing content "need" to change. > > > > > > In addition to the fact that Anet _intentionally_ increased the range in PoF and that Anet can't design the game to cater to people's individual feelings. > > > > > > > > > > And seemingly decreased it in later S4 maps which might be due to complaints about it in PoF maps. /shrug > > ... The opposite happened. Flesh wurms in dragonfall and dominion snipers in drizzlewood have EVEN greater range I was thinking more about the aggro ranges of mobs throughout entire maps, not one or two individual examples. In my experience, anyway, I found the aggro to be decreased in Istan, Sandswept Isles, Kourna, Jahai and yes Thunderhead and Dragonfall. Perhaps it is merely my perception? I can't say and have neither the time nor desire to measure these out on all of those maps plus the PoF ones. And on the point of flesh wurms and snipers -- those are more individuals than mobs. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitescape.6984 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 OK up front going to say I have only posted like 3 times on the forms they are both good and toxic so with that being said and after reading everyones comments here let me see if i can put my 2 cents on this :D With PoF being to hard.. to start with.. Core GW2 was to easy i played this game from release day one... it was a joke and the game suffered alot of us were like their is 0 endgame content. the hardest challenge at the time was Dung's and living story so you got really bored eassy.. really bored fast. You could say that is why Fashion wars started. So with that Anet did change the game with trash mobs and yes make them more aggressive.. now with the mobs reflecting our classes and our sub classes .. example sniper .. yeah it is anoying as hell and a big agro ring effects things but that is on us the player to ajust means NO MORE GLASS CANNON builds. sucks for all you who only want to mash 1 With mob placement again you are complaining about a game that never had mounts... so much so that mounts where a hot topic on the forums for the first 2 yrs of the game.. alot of people dont want them and alot of people did... so pre mounts running around you killed those local mobs.. you used the closest way point to get to the boss fight.. not mount run across the map.... so 8 pages latter I see the toxic side of the community has raised its head and turned to fighting each other vs saying wait look at past and think ok thats why... present what can i do as the player... change my gear or skills.... what can anet do as the platform.. well respond to us would be nice ... so their u have it you all do you QQ and whine.. i hate pof for other reasons i dont find the mobs hard i find the maps boring.. but thats just me and you do you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"Hesione.9412" said: > Re the snipers comment a few comments above. I don't think that is a good example of how mobs in later maps have long aggro distance. Snipers, by their nature, are designed for long distance attacks. It is not sufficient to cherry-pick mobs to support one's argument. One must consider all mobs in the LS maps that are post-PoF. and > @"kharmin.7683" said: > I was thinking more about the aggro ranges of mobs throughout entire maps, not one or two individual examples. In my experience, anyway, I found the aggro to be decreased in Istan, Sandswept Isles, Kourna, Jahai and yes Thunderhead and Dragonfall. Perhaps it is merely my perception? I can't say and have neither the time nor desire to measure these out on all of those maps plus the PoF ones. All **new** mobs in Season 4 maps have the same range as POF mobs with the exception of stationary ranged mobs, like Inquest Cannons in Sandswept Isles and Flesh Wurms in Dragonfall. There are a few reasons that create the perception of a shorter range in Season 4 maps: 1) Some maps use Core Tyria mobs, like the Inquest and their golems in Sandswept Isles, which have Core Tyria ranges. Do note that around the areas of the Inquest there are the stationary laser cannons which have a 1200+ unit range, to keep players busy and in combat in areas full of short range Inquest. It's annoying when there are animals around as their ranges are very inconsistent, dolyaks for example (veteran are aggressive) are mobs introduced in POF but their range is Core Tyria like. Another example: Awakened Inquest in Kourna engage at Inquest ranges (500), not Awakened ranges (1000) probably because although they are named differently, they use the same code as regular core tyria Inquest. In general aggro ranges in the game are very inconsistent and confusing. 2) There are no Hero Challenges in Season 4 maps, meaning you won't experience the respawning and over-aggroing that happens on POF maps while you are fighting a Hero Challenge 3) If you played the maps when they were released they were likely way better populated than POF maps (which were dead on arrival until their reward revamp) 4) All Season 4 maps feature large meta events that you can join/follow while exploring, creating a safety net. As said above, POF maps were dead for a very long time. 5) Obviously while exploring POF the first time we didn't have all the mounts unlocked. Especially in later Season 4 maps, we have Griffon, Beetle and Skyscale to make traversing the map a breeze. This also creates the perception of POF maps being harder to play in than Season 4 maps. If you go to POF maps TODAY and fight mobs seen in Season 4 maps (Awakened for example) you won't notice a difference. Edit: what all this means is that mob aggro range doesn't depend on the map or the expansion, but rather the mob itself. This means for example if in EOD we fight Forged, Branded or Awakened anywhere, they will have 1000 range, even if new EOD mobs have a reduced range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikansei.5742 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I'm not here to debate people's opinions ... that's a worthless exercise. 1. "Debating people's opinions" is exactly what you're doing right now 2. Discussing opinions is what forums are _for_, so if you're not here to do that and think it's such a "worthless exercise," why _are_ you here? Anyway, if they reduced PoF mob aggro radius across the board I might do more in PoF maps than parallel park my skyscale in an outpost and idle till I have to go somewhere - because going anywhere in PoF maps seems to necessitate culling half the entire population of sand eels in Elona every single time. I usually don't bother. I think the last time I intentionally killed a sand eel was doing the last caffeinated skritt chest I needed to finish the PoF elite spec weapon collections. How long ago was that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > many people (not me) have a very limited time for their hobby. i am sure they appreciate being trolled in that very short time It has been pretty clear from your posts that you don't like this game and are annoyed by pretty much all the aspects of it. From posts in this thread, you don't even want to play the game, you would like everything taught and handed to you and even something as trivial as changing your traits to suit the occasion is way beyond you and your expectations for this game. So why the kitten are you playing this game with your limited time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > > But this is exactly the crux that you don't seem to understand or don't want to. There have been many changes based on player input. GW2 wouldn't exist for a long time if they didn't listen to their players. > > > > > > There is a reason for all the decisions Anet makes. BUT, these are not decisions that are set in stone and must remain forever. As we have seen thousands of times. > > > And that is FACT. > > > > I don't disagree with these things. Sure, changes based on player feedback. Sure, Anet can change whatever they want for whatever reason they have. Yes, those are facts. > > > > There just isn't a need for any changes to aggro range because players are annoyed by it. > > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not Anet can't cater to individuals in their game design so it's inevitable there are some parts of the game that people will dislike for whatever reason. I would say it's almost guaranteed in fact that SOMETHING is annoying to everyone in this game, so that's not a reason to change anything. If PoF is a waste of someone's limited time, they don't have to play in those maps; there is LOTS of choice and variety in maps for players looking for all kinds of game experiences. So basically ... you are right ... players do pay for a VARIETY of content, some of which they like, some they don't. That's not a fault of how GW2 works though and it's something everyone playing ANY MMO should expect. If that causes someone to rethink their spend in/on a game ... so be it. That's always the consumer's option as well. In otherwords ... nothing you said is exceptional or a reason for Anet to rethink their design decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 > @"mikansei.5742" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > I'm not here to debate people's opinions ... that's a worthless exercise. > > 1. "Debating people's opinions" is exactly what you're doing right now > 2. Discussing opinions is what forums are _for_, so if you're not here to do that and think it's such a "worthless exercise," why _are_ you here? > > Anyway, if they reduced PoF mob aggro radius across the board I might do more in PoF maps than parallel park my skyscale in an outpost and idle till I have to go somewhere - because going anywhere in PoF maps seems to necessitate culling half the entire population of sand eels in Elona every single time. I usually don't bother. > > I think the last time I intentionally killed a sand eel was doing the last caffeinated skritt chest I needed to finish the PoF elite spec weapon collections. How long ago was that? How can you claim you need to "cull half of the population of sand eels" when you have skyscale? You mostly didn't need to bother with mobs on the way even before we had flying mounts with stealth and hp boost. I'm not sure how this is a problem now. And what's that about "idling in an outpost till you have to go somewhere"? It seems perfectly reasonable. Are you complaining that you can't afk in the middle of the field of mobs for some reason? Or that you need a destination to start going through the map? Do you just randomly roam core/hot maps for no reason because the mob range is shorter then? I seriously don't understand the point you're trying to make here, would like to get some clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 > @"Cuks.8241" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > many people (not me) have a very limited time for their hobby. i am sure they appreciate being trolled in that very short time > > It has been pretty clear from your posts that you don't like this game and are annoyed by pretty much all the aspects of it. From posts in this thread, you don't even want to play the game, you would like everything taught and handed to you and even something as trivial as changing your traits to suit the occasion is way beyond you and your expectations for this game. > So why the kitten are you playing this game with your limited time? > wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > > > But this is exactly the crux that you don't seem to understand or don't want to. There have been many changes based on player input. GW2 wouldn't exist for a long time if they didn't listen to their players. > > > > > > > > There is a reason for all the decisions Anet makes. BUT, these are not decisions that are set in stone and must remain forever. As we have seen thousands of times. > > > > And that is FACT. > > > > > > I don't disagree with these things. Sure, changes based on player feedback. Sure, Anet can change whatever they want for whatever reason they have. Yes, those are facts. > > > > > > There just isn't a need for any changes to aggro range because players are annoyed by it. > > > > > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > Anet can't cater to individuals in their game design so it's inevitable there are some parts of the game that people will dislike for whatever reason. I would say it's almost guaranteed in fact that SOMETHING is annoying to everyone in this game, so that's not a reason to change anything. If PoF is a waste of someone's limited time, they don't have to play in those maps; there is LOTS of choice and variety in maps for players looking for all kinds of game experiences. > > So basically ... you are right ... players do pay for a VARIETY of content, some of which they like, some they don't. That's not a fault of how GW2 works though and it's something everyone playing ANY MMO should expect. If that causes someone to rethink their spend in/on a game ... so be it. That's always the consumer's option as well. In otherwords ... nothing you said is exceptional or a reason for Anet to rethink their design decisions. okay, so where is the new low level content? variety? lol, they have only made end game content since launch. and very poor versions of it too. it is roughly on par with end game content in other mmos, but without proper tutorials, and no progression. in short: not worth playing. even after i paid for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > > > > But this is exactly the crux that you don't seem to understand or don't want to. There have been many changes based on player input. GW2 wouldn't exist for a long time if they didn't listen to their players. > > > > > > > > > > There is a reason for all the decisions Anet makes. BUT, these are not decisions that are set in stone and must remain forever. As we have seen thousands of times. > > > > > And that is FACT. > > > > > > > > I don't disagree with these things. Sure, changes based on player feedback. Sure, Anet can change whatever they want for whatever reason they have. Yes, those are facts. > > > > > > > > There just isn't a need for any changes to aggro range because players are annoyed by it. > > > > > > > > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > > > Anet can't cater to individuals in their game design so it's inevitable there are some parts of the game that people will dislike for whatever reason. I would say it's almost guaranteed in fact that SOMETHING is annoying to everyone in this game, so that's not a reason to change anything. If PoF is a waste of someone's limited time, they don't have to play in those maps; there is LOTS of choice and variety in maps for players looking for all kinds of game experiences. > > > > So basically ... you are right ... players do pay for a VARIETY of content, some of which they like, some they don't. That's not a fault of how GW2 works though and it's something everyone playing ANY MMO should expect. If that causes someone to rethink their spend in/on a game ... so be it. That's always the consumer's option as well. In otherwords ... nothing you said is exceptional or a reason for Anet to rethink their design decisions. > > okay, so where is the new low level content? variety? lol, they have only made end game content since launch. and very poor versions of it too. > it is roughly on par with end game content in other mmos, but without proper tutorials, and no progression. > in short: not worth playing. even after i paid for it. OK ... but that doesn't change what I said. How you personally feel about the quality and quantity of the content in the current game is irrelevant in this discussion, so I'm simply not going to address it. The bottom line here: It's a fact that MMO's can't cater to individual players, so players have to decide if the content Anet creates is worth their patronage or not. Lucky for us, the various LS and expansions have content that differ in enough ways to allow meaningful choices to players without significant deviation from the game mechanics ... INCLUDING the variation of mob encounters in PoF and all the design parameters associated with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunTzu.4513 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 >wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? Don't get me wrong but maybe mmo's aren't the type of games or entertaining you are looking for. I played almost every mmo out there and GW2 is the one with the least amount of work, grind or time you need to invest to finish any pve content at all. There is literaly no need for a grind in any way. The only progression you have are the masterys wich can be obtained easily, you can even choose how to get them because there are a wide array of activitys/ways to get them so you don't need to force yourself into something you don't like. That's why i ended up here because i don't need to run some dungeons over and over again in hope to get my bis sword dropped, just to got the same sword devalueded with the next big content patch. No need for rep grinds. No need to grind for some time gated empowerments wich comes obsolete with a new expansion. You even don't need to level a new toon because the game bombardes you with tomes. Exo gear is handed to you on a silver plate. A new story chapter took me and my RP group around a maximum of 2 hours and maybe 1 more for map completion if there are points wich are meta locked. Metas don't fail even if most of the people AA all the time. Only collections tend to be time sinks but the good thing about them is you don't need anything they offer to take part in any gamemode. I personaly hate them so i dont do them. I don't even own a skyscale because i just dont like the collection. The game is designed, is whole philosophy is the simple and easy way to progress. I don't want to white knight ANet becuase they really have big downsides on their view of their game imo but the one thing they really nail perfectly is the easy way to progress because this caters towards their main audience which are casual gamers with limited time. This players brings the most money into the game. An other take on the game feels like work would be taking a step back and make a break. That's what i do if i don't have fun in Tyria. And thanks to the the game design my toons are still relevant in any type of content even after a 6 month break, like my last one. And if this dosen't help i would walk away completly. I learned this the hard way on EQ2. I play trough boring times, logged in even if i really don't want it because i thought somehow/someday the fun will coming back but it never happened. The devs just take another way and take on the game that dosen't suited me anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Cuks.8241" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > > many people (not me) have a very limited time for their hobby. i am sure they appreciate being trolled in that very short time > > > > It has been pretty clear from your posts that you don't like this game and are annoyed by pretty much all the aspects of it. From posts in this thread, you don't even want to play the game, you would like everything taught and handed to you and even something as trivial as changing your traits to suit the occasion is way beyond you and your expectations for this game. > > So why the kitten are you playing this game with your limited time? > > > > wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. > and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , Nobody wants you to "WORK for the fun". But you sure need to play the game in order to... well... play the game. >then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. > the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? This is not how most games work. If that's what you want, then you'd need to pick something along the lines of telltale game, where you click on a dialogue option to progress. Otherwise your expectations are pretty much unrealistic for an mmorpg game **or even many other, way more simplistic ones** -claiming that you absolutely need to progress no matter what *because you want to* is just objectively false. Even moreso when you try to paint *picking a set of 3 x 3 traits in a semi-coherent manner* as some kind of unreasonably high work load with high skill/time/resource demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaFishBob.6518 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"Fuchslein.8639" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because I'm not giving my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would argue that the following are opinions. As valid as anyone else's, but opinions even so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > >but that's not a problem that needs to be fixed. It's just a different approach you have to take to play that part of the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right ... and 'annoying' isn't a reason to get it changed ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not following the conversation here. Yes, THAT is an opinion ... but I have presented certain facts that make it evident aggro range doesn't need to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aggro range doesn't prevent people from completing content. > > > > > > > > > > > Players disliking something doesn't mean it's a problem that needs to be fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > Anet set the Aggro range of mobs intentionally in PoF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm continually presenting these factual statements as the reason range aggro doesn't need to change; some people think pointing out opinions invalidate those facts ... it doesn't. Hey, if you have some FACTS that shows it should change, let's hear them. Otherwise, telling me things I said that are my opinion is just a big nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's true that aggro range does not prevent people from completing content. But who chose this as the metric by which we determine whether or not something is problematic or needs to be fixed? ANet does a lot of things. They also change a lot of things. What's your point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is simple: the three facts I presented are evidence this doesn't need to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you yourself noted previously, it isn't up to players to determine what "needs" to change. Having said that, one purpose of the forum is to communicate player feedback. So, your opinion is noted (as little or as much as anyone else's!), but has no intrinsic value above that of any other person's opinion on this matter. The metric you've chosen to support your claim is arbitrary and meaningless, just as that of the rest of us, again because it is not up to us to determine what needs to change. We're simply sharing our opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, the increased aggro range of PoF is annoying and I would prefer HoT aggro ranges. I am in no way suggesting that it "must" change or that I have the power to facilitate that change beyond providing player feedback. So, here I am doing just that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not here to debate people's opinions ... that's a worthless exercise. With the game history and factual information, it's evident that aggro range doesn't need to decrease in PoF. Maybe you believe that 'opinions' matter more than game intent and mechanics in this case ... if that was true, you have to ask yourself why Anet increased aggro range in PoF regardless of 'opinions'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts in the form of statements or statistics to back up your 'facts'? > > > > > > > > > > Obtena's central argument is that only things which prevent players from completing content "need" to change. > > > > > > > > In addition to the fact that Anet _intentionally_ increased the range in PoF and that Anet can't design the game to cater to people's individual feelings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And seemingly decreased it in later S4 maps which might be due to complaints about it in PoF maps. /shrug > > > > ... The opposite happened. Flesh wurms in dragonfall and dominion snipers in drizzlewood have EVEN greater range > > I was thinking more about the aggro ranges of mobs throughout entire maps, not one or two individual examples. In my experience, anyway, I found the aggro to be decreased in Istan, Sandswept Isles, Kourna, Jahai and yes Thunderhead and Dragonfall. Perhaps it is merely my perception? I can't say and have neither the time nor desire to measure these out on all of those maps plus the PoF ones. > > And on the point of flesh wurms and snipers -- those are more individuals than mobs. /shrug More important about flesh wurms and snipers, they're immobile. You can just get out of their line of sight to get out of combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 > @"SunTzu.4513" said: > >wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? > > Don't get me wrong but maybe mmo's aren't the type of games or entertaining you are looking for. I played almost every mmo out there and GW2 is the one with the least amount of work, grind or time you need to invest to finish any pve content at all. There is literaly no need for a grind in any way. The only progression you have are the masterys wich can be obtained easily, you can even choose how to get them because there are a wide array of activitys/ways to get them so you don't need to force yourself into something you don't like. That's why i ended up here because i don't need to run some dungeons over and over again in hope to get my bis sword dropped, just to got the same sword devalueded with the next big content patch. No need for rep grinds. No need to grind for some time gated empowerments wich comes obsolete with a new expansion. > You even don't need to level a new toon because the game bombardes you with tomes. Exo gear is handed to you on a silver plate. A new story chapter took me and my RP group around a maximum of 2 hours and maybe 1 more for map completion if there are points wich are meta locked. Metas don't fail even if most of the people AA all the time. Only collections tend to be time sinks but the good thing about them is you don't need anything they offer to take part in any gamemode. I personaly hate them so i dont do them. I don't even own a skyscale because i just dont like the collection. > The game is designed, is whole philosophy is the simple and easy way to progress. I don't want to white knight ANet becuase they really have big downsides on their view of their game imo but the one thing they really nail perfectly is the easy way to progress because this caters towards their main audience which are casual gamers with limited time. This players brings the most money into the game. > > An other take on the game feels like work would be taking a step back and make a break. That's what i do if i don't have fun in Tyria. And thanks to the the game design my toons are still relevant in any type of content even after a 6 month break, like my last one. And if this dosen't help i would walk away completly. I learned this the hard way on EQ2. I play trough boring times, logged in even if i really don't want it because i thought somehow/someday the fun will coming back but it never happened. The devs just take another way and take on the game that dosen't suited me anymore. > > but of course. i have played them for 17 years now. i have 5 of them installed . and i am subbed to one of them too. sometimes to more than one i know casual when i see it, and this aint it. exo gear isnt just "handed to you" either... if it was, then i would have more , than just a few amulets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Cuks.8241" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > > > many people (not me) have a very limited time for their hobby. i am sure they appreciate being trolled in that very short time > > > > > > It has been pretty clear from your posts that you don't like this game and are annoyed by pretty much all the aspects of it. From posts in this thread, you don't even want to play the game, you would like everything taught and handed to you and even something as trivial as changing your traits to suit the occasion is way beyond you and your expectations for this game. > > > So why the kitten are you playing this game with your limited time? > > > > > > > wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. > > and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , > > Nobody wants you to "WORK for the fun". But you sure need to play the game in order to... well... play the game. > > >then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. > > the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? > > This is not how most games work. If that's what you want, then you'd need to pick something along the lines of telltale game, where you click on a dialogue option to progress. Otherwise your expectations are pretty much unrealistic for an mmorpg game **or even many other, way more simplistic ones** -claiming that you absolutely need to progress no matter what *because you want to* is just objectively false. Even moreso when you try to paint *picking a set of 3 x 3 traits in a semi-coherent manner* as some kind of unreasonably high work load with high skill/time/resource demand. wrong, first i need to pick the build. and then i need to get the runes and sigils for that build. and then i need to learn, how to use that build. thats a lot of work , and it all has to be done in content, that i dont like. metas, bosses, dailys, whatever. and even IF that all happened, there is simply no content left for me to enjoy. sometimes life gives you a huge kitten sandwich, but i certainly dont want to PAY for one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Cuks.8241" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > > > > many people (not me) have a very limited time for their hobby. i am sure they appreciate being trolled in that very short time > > > > > > > > It has been pretty clear from your posts that you don't like this game and are annoyed by pretty much all the aspects of it. From posts in this thread, you don't even want to play the game, you would like everything taught and handed to you and even something as trivial as changing your traits to suit the occasion is way beyond you and your expectations for this game. > > > > So why the kitten are you playing this game with your limited time? > > > > > > > > > > wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. > > > and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , > > > > Nobody wants you to "WORK for the fun". But you sure need to play the game in order to... well... play the game. > > > > >then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. > > > the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? > > > > This is not how most games work. If that's what you want, then you'd need to pick something along the lines of telltale game, where you click on a dialogue option to progress. Otherwise your expectations are pretty much unrealistic for an mmorpg game **or even many other, way more simplistic ones** -claiming that you absolutely need to progress no matter what *because you want to* is just objectively false. Even moreso when you try to paint *picking a set of 3 x 3 traits in a semi-coherent manner* as some kind of unreasonably high work load with high skill/time/resource demand. > > wrong, first i need to pick the build. and then i need to get the runes and sigils for that build. and then i need to learn, how to use that build. > thats a lot of work , and it all has to be done in content, that i dont like. metas, bosses, dailys, whatever. > and even IF that all happened, there is simply no content left for me to enjoy. sometimes life gives you a huge kitten sandwich, but i certainly dont > want to PAY for one Well, hold on here. You just described how progression works in almost every MMO ever. Make some choices, learn to use it in game content, earn the gear, etc ... but somehow it's a problem for you in GW2 because it appears you hate most of the content. Again, GW2 can't cater to you. You don't like the content, don't play it ... it's not going to change just for you. Your complaint you paid for it doesn't even make sense. Again ... most MMO's are going to charge you for server access and you don't know until you play if you like it or not. In this case, GW2 is even F2P ... so it seems to me Anet pretty much did everything they could to minimize uptake costs to people to taste the game before they invested more time and money on it. Somehow you didn't take advantage of those things. I mean, your whole complaint sounds like the game should have simply been everything to you that you expect it to be ... and where it isn't, should just be changed so it is. That's not a realistic view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"SunTzu.4513" said: > > >wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? > > > > Don't get me wrong but maybe mmo's aren't the type of games or entertaining you are looking for. I played almost every mmo out there and GW2 is the one with the least amount of work, grind or time you need to invest to finish any pve content at all. There is literaly no need for a grind in any way. The only progression you have are the masterys wich can be obtained easily, you can even choose how to get them because there are a wide array of activitys/ways to get them so you don't need to force yourself into something you don't like. That's why i ended up here because i don't need to run some dungeons over and over again in hope to get my bis sword dropped, just to got the same sword devalueded with the next big content patch. No need for rep grinds. No need to grind for some time gated empowerments wich comes obsolete with a new expansion. > > You even don't need to level a new toon because the game bombardes you with tomes. Exo gear is handed to you on a silver plate. A new story chapter took me and my RP group around a maximum of 2 hours and maybe 1 more for map completion if there are points wich are meta locked. Metas don't fail even if most of the people AA all the time. Only collections tend to be time sinks but the good thing about them is you don't need anything they offer to take part in any gamemode. I personaly hate them so i dont do them. I don't even own a skyscale because i just dont like the collection. > > The game is designed, is whole philosophy is the simple and easy way to progress. I don't want to white knight ANet becuase they really have big downsides on their view of their game imo but the one thing they really nail perfectly is the easy way to progress because this caters towards their main audience which are casual gamers with limited time. This players brings the most money into the game. > > > > An other take on the game feels like work would be taking a step back and make a break. That's what i do if i don't have fun in Tyria. And thanks to the the game design my toons are still relevant in any type of content even after a 6 month break, like my last one. And if this dosen't help i would walk away completly. I learned this the hard way on EQ2. I play trough boring times, logged in even if i really don't want it because i thought somehow/someday the fun will coming back but it never happened. The devs just take another way and take on the game that dosen't suited me anymore. > > > > > > but of course. i have played them for 17 years now. i have 5 of them installed . and i am subbed to one of them too. sometimes to more than one > i know casual when i see it, and this aint it. exo gear isnt just "handed to you" either... if it was, then i would have more , than just a few amulets. That's on you. Dailies reward 2 gold each day. Most exotic items go for a fraction of that on the trading post. Sorry but exotic gear IS handed to players left and right. That would in fact even be mathematically provable. The same goes for some ascended items, especially trinkets, if the correct conditions are met, in this case owning season 3 or 4 maps. Which could also be calculated both in time to acquire access to the content, if one should lack that, as well as time to acquire the gear. In either case making acquisition of best in slot gear in this game significantly faster and easier than ANY other MMORPG in the market. The fact you are unaware, unwilling or unable to acquire the knowledge how to do this or to acquire the gear this way is a personal limitation. It is not reflective of the games state nor does it give any basis as argument. Again, I could easily disprove your claim with simple math and time required versus any other MMORPG. The fact you have to 5 MMOs installed tells absolutely nothing about if this game is for you or not. All it says is you either like dividing your attention between multiple games, never actually diving any deeper than toe deep, or you just enjoy having this type of game on your PC. The amount of games has absolutely no bearing on if a type of game fits your demands or preference. You might just be unhappy with all 5 games but unable to let go. You certainly have not been able to let go of GW2 so far, who is to say you are not approaching all those other games in the same way? In which case you would literally be proving the point that MMORPGs are not for you. As @"Obtena.7952" said: this game will never be catered to you personally or any player for that matter. Now pair that knowledge with the fact that this game is aging and in general new content is added towards the "end game" of MMORPGs by simply logical conclusion that the earlier parts of the game are usually "done" or saturated enough this late into a MMORPGs life, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that what you demand will NEVER come to fruition, no matter how much you complain on the forums. At best there might be a new started area with EoD, and even that is a HUGE "maybe". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindefender.9834 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 I could stand with a little less aggro range. It would be nice to traverse a POF map without having to fight for every inch. People who want to fight for every inch could just stay a little closer to the mobs. Then if you just wanted to scoot through, you could. That said, as you get more map knowledge, you learn the safe spots that are here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunTzu.4513 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 >but of course. i have played them for 17 years now. i have 5 of them installed . and i am subbed to one of them too. sometimes to more than one i know casual when i see it, and this aint it. exo gear isnt just "handed to you" either... if it was, then i would have more , than just a few amulets. I can proof it to you. You got regulary only for login rewards. One of them is a chest with exotic gear. You can even choose the profession and for wich the chest will contain a random exotic piece of gear/wepaon. And if you don't need/like them you can spare them and put them into th mystic forge and transform them to a new one. Also you get seven times Laurels in a month so you can even buy your way up on the amulet/trinket/ring side of things into ascendet. Just from login rewards. I don't know any mmo where you can obtain gear in this quality only for login. Also if you play the story you get from Chapter 8 The forgotten Temple onwards Lvl 80 stuff as reward. All of this is exo mybe not bis stats but you will gear wise nearly completly exo amored going into hot, where you can buy your way up to good exo stuffs by only participating on story or events. In the ratio from time to gear value this even beats WOW BFA dailys where scaled up gear was literally thrown at you. Edit: Source GW2 wiki Login Rewards. Leveling and Story rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Cuks.8241" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > yea, because players love to pay for the pleasure of being annoyed. just suck it up, and open the wallet again...or not > > > > > many people (not me) have a very limited time for their hobby. i am sure they appreciate being trolled in that very short time > > > > > > > > It has been pretty clear from your posts that you don't like this game and are annoyed by pretty much all the aspects of it. From posts in this thread, you don't even want to play the game, you would like everything taught and handed to you and even something as trivial as changing your traits to suit the occasion is way beyond you and your expectations for this game. > > > > So why the kitten are you playing this game with your limited time? > > > > > > > > > > wrong, i loved core tyria. and i hate the expansions with a vengeance. last time i played was when drizzlewood was new. > > > and when a game wants me to WORK for the fun ( that i have already paid for) , > > > > Nobody wants you to "WORK for the fun". But you sure need to play the game in order to... well... play the game. > > > > >then i want a guaranteed and SIMPLE way to progress. > > > the expansions simply cant deliver that. pretty simple, right? > > > > This is not how most games work. If that's what you want, then you'd need to pick something along the lines of telltale game, where you click on a dialogue option to progress. Otherwise your expectations are pretty much unrealistic for an mmorpg game **or even many other, way more simplistic ones** -claiming that you absolutely need to progress no matter what *because you want to* is just objectively false. Even moreso when you try to paint *picking a set of 3 x 3 traits in a semi-coherent manner* as some kind of unreasonably high work load with high skill/time/resource demand. > > wrong, first i need to pick the build. and then i need to get the runes and sigils for that build. and then i need to learn, how to use that build. Creating a build in mmorpg and choosing equipment for you to use isn't anything out of ordinary, I don't understand your complaint here. And 10 clicks to pick traits after reading them isn't "work" -even moreso "a lot" of it. > thats a lot of work , and it all has to be done in content, that i dont like. metas, bosses, dailys, whatever. > and even IF that all happened, there is simply no content left for me to enjoy. sometimes life gives you a huge kitten sandwich, but i certainly dont > want to PAY for one So you don't like the game at all and from what you've wrote here maybe you don't even like the genre as a whole. Got it. Then I'm not sure what you're constantly arguing on this forum for. Pick a game from the genre you enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > exo gear isnt just "handed to you" either... if it was, then i would have more , than just a few amulets. It's given to you regularly just for signing in as a login reward. This is the very definition of "handed to you". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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