Discord / Hidden Tags / Closed Squads

[Threather.9354]

Invisible tags are a problem, guilds are becoming more and more inbred instead of working together with other guilds.

 

Closed squads are fine, invisible not. This would push you to advertise voice more, invisible just means you shouldn't be "open tagging" as you're not ready to take in the "introduction to WvW" role. 99% of the people don't join voice comms on their first day, invisible tags just make it seem its dead. WvW needs more players and queues, not less. What gives people incentive to join the discord is maphopping and getting instant queues (as it is unavoidable), not being invisible and only catering to people that already have voice coms installed and are paying attention to it.

 

An as such like some people already mentioned invisible tags have already done massive damage to the gamemode. Guild players almost never join open tags because they can just run alongside those open tags with invisible tags. Almost everyone these days have only 1 commander (most likely their guild one) they follow, not multiple on their server.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Threather.9354" said:

> Invisible tags are a problem, guilds are becoming more and more inbred instead of working together with other guilds.

>

> Closed squads are fine, invisible not. This would push you to advertise voice more, invisible just means you shouldn't be "open tagging" as you're not ready to take in the "introduction to WvW" role. 99% of the people don't join voice comms on their first day, invisible tags just make it seem its dead. WvW needs more players and queues, not less. What gives people incentive to join the discord is maphopping and getting instant queues (as it is unavoidable), not being invisible and only catering to people that already have voice coms installed and are paying attention to it.

>

> An as such like some people already mentioned invisible tags have already done massive damage to the gamemode. Guild players almost never join open tags because they can just run alongside those open tags with invisible tags. Almost everyone these days have only 1 commander (most likely their guild one) they follow, not multiple on their server.

 

**Closed tags and invisible tags:**

 

Before we got squads the norm was for guilds to form their own parties to make up a pickup group. When we got squads it was normal for most tags to respect wishes from players to be put in the same party. They can just leave the squad if you don't respect those wishes and they may reconsider trying to be helpful. 99% of the mechanics are still party-based. It makes little to no difference if they are in your squad or not as long as they play as apart of the group and help the tag. The hidden tags for havoc purposes just give them tools to operate better. It doesn't make or break their ability to just form a party or squad on the side. In fact, even before the hidden tags you could glitch the game to get an untagged squad by passing tag to players without tag bought.

 

So the anecdote isn't historical and there's no way to- or positives to come from trying to force players to do what you want in that way. If they form a group on the side to help you out, be thankful for that instead. Also, that many servers only has one tag up at a time has much more to do with there being few guilds and tags left in general than it has to do with hidden tags or the seclusion of guilds. There are plenty of other things that could be said about the collapse of helpful routines, unwritten rules and server infrastructure but that has little to do with hidden tags, closed squads or expected coms use.

 

**Open tags and number of tags:**

 

Again, the big kicker is that new players comming in have not been interested in WvW to the point of forming new guilds and producing new tags. There are fewer groups and tags left to share the burden and spread over maps as a result. That also causes alot of the good practises and unwritten rules to deteriorate since keeping them up wouldn't add much positives anyway. That ties into your remark about working with other guilds. That is hard if there are few to no guilds to work with left.

 

Even I can sometimes by irritated that guilds today no longer adapt to content, where for example, if there are no blue tags around and there is pickup content to fight, it used to be customary that some closed group just went open to dip into that content. However, stuff like that rested upon that there were multiple closed groups around on your side and open groups providing content on the other side.

 

You get that variety when there are alot of groups total but when there are few it is much harder to find and adapt to content. Perhaps your side has no open tags but the other side has both open and closed. Then your closed group can pick and choose. There is no reason for them to pick fighting the open content over the closed content and the real problem is that your side simply provides far less content than the opponent. That may be annoying but it is also understandable with those things taken into account. Much of the organized cooperation I see these days is focused around making sure there is at least one public tag in prime for most days. Tags for multiple maps over multiple days is a luxury that few servers can afford these days, even if they build community and guilds cooperate.

 

**Tags and servers:**

 

Getting around those problems require building community to a level that few servers can do anymore. We've gone from like 30 guilds on some servers to some 10 guilds on servers down to like 3 guilds on some servers over vanilla, HoT and PoF. If groups get inbred and, let's say, almost all remaining commanders on a server gets into the same guild on a server that still claims to try to build community, then that is fair critique. However, if it happens just to keep the guilds alive then it is another story and nothing that is different from guilds having a couple of tags each in the past. The motive is what's important. You can't fault anyone for keeping their guild alive but you can point out mistakes if they try to build community.

 

In the end, most servers I see these days just have few regular tags in general and almost all of them are old players with old guilds or who used to have old guilds. New guilds are not formed and new players who may try their hand at commanding end up in one of two situations: It's either just disorganized backcapping (which is fine, just something different) or they too tend to join the few established guilds remaining because that is where the support and team-players remain. If you look to learn to lead, you need those players that let themselves be lead. They are as rare commodity as the tags themselves these days and a downside for servers that stack their tags in few guilds is that all those tags rely upon the same groups of players for help to lead. In fact, the problem is that many players do not even help "their guy" anymore when they tag public as a result. If more groups did that and more groups formed we would have more content and less reliance on the picked up, leading to less frustrations with the picked up. That is a big difference between the past and now when most pickups had cores of at least one guild related to the tag and thus did not need to rely on the picked up. When the norm becomes 1 player expected to lead 49 random players that is another story. That is when tags start doing closed, hidden and demand coms: to get help.

[Spartacus.3192]

Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

[Threather.9354]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > Invisible tags are a problem, guilds are becoming more and more inbred instead of working together with other guilds.

> >

> > Closed squads are fine, invisible not. This would push you to advertise voice more, invisible just means you shouldn't be "open tagging" as you're not ready to take in the "introduction to WvW" role. 99% of the people don't join voice comms on their first day, invisible tags just make it seem its dead. WvW needs more players and queues, not less. What gives people incentive to join the discord is maphopping and getting instant queues (as it is unavoidable), not being invisible and only catering to people that already have voice coms installed and are paying attention to it.

> >

> > An as such like some people already mentioned invisible tags have already done massive damage to the gamemode. Guild players almost never join open tags because they can just run alongside those open tags with invisible tags. Almost everyone these days have only 1 commander (most likely their guild one) they follow, not multiple on their server.

>

> **Closed tags and invisible tags:**

>

> Before we got squads the norm was for guilds to form their own parties to make up a pickup group. When we got squads it was normal for most tags to respect wishes from players to be put in the same party. They can just leave the squad if you don't respect those wishes and they may reconsider trying to be helpful. 99% of the mechanics are still party-based. It makes little to no difference if they are in your squad or not as long as they play as apart of the group and help the tag. The hidden tags for havoc purposes just give them tools to operate better. It doesn't make or break their ability to just form a party or squad on the side. In fact, even before the hidden tags you could glitch the game to get an untagged squad by passing tag to players without tag bought.

>

> So the anecdote isn't historical and there's no way to- or positives to come from trying to force players to do what you want in that way. If they form a group on the side to help you out, be thankful for that instead. Also, that many servers only has one tag up at a time has much more to do with there being few guilds and tags left in general than it has to do with hidden tags or the seclusion of guilds. There are plenty of other things that could be said about the collapse of helpful routines, unwritten rules and server infrastructure but that has little to do with hidden tags, closed squads or expected coms use.

 

Actually invisible tag passing only came along with catmander tags where you passed catmander tag to a player that didn't have it. So it is still semi recent (only 3 years), unlike squads that existed since HoT, which was much more enjoyable. Like yes, guilds had a few ignorant pugs follow them once in a while _but removing this wasn't worth losing all mapwide communication_. It is also much easier to keep track of allied groups in fights if they have a visible tag.

 

Guilds being visible was taking responsibility for outcome of the fight and wellbeing of the server. What do people do best? Avoid responsibility. So they go invisible. No one can complain about anything they do anymore so they can be as ignorant about other groups as they want. So teamwork _between groups_ died.

 

> **Open tags and number of tags:**

>

> Again, the big kicker is that new players comming in have not been interested in WvW to the point of forming new guilds and producing new tags. There are fewer groups and tags left to share the burden and spread over maps as a result. That also causes alot of the good practises and unwritten rules to deteriorate since keeping them up wouldn't add much positives anyway. That ties into your remark about working with other guilds. That is hard if there are few to no guilds to work with left.

>

> Even I can sometimes by irritated that guilds today no longer adapt to content, where for example, if there are no blue tags around and there is pickup content to fight, it used to be customary that some closed group just went open to dip into that content. However, stuff like that rested upon that there were multiple closed groups around on your side and open groups providing content on the other side.

>

> You get that variety when there are alot of groups total but when there are few it is much harder to find and adapt to content. Perhaps your side has no open tags but the other side has both open and closed. Then your closed group can pick and choose. There is no reason for them to pick fighting the open content over the closed content and the real problem is that your side simply provides far less content than the opponent. That may be annoying but it is also understandable with those things taken into account.

 

Well tbf introduction of 1 dimensional superspeed meta, low CD specs and minstrel builds being dominant has made leading kinda dull and brainless. 1 side wins the fights and other side is forced to be on defensive all the time. And claim buffs make it so that you're not being outbrained by the defending side, rather outstatted. If the fight is even close and enjoyable near objectives, you lost because claim buff, or barely won despite the claim buff. Like you can overcome defending ACs with smart siege placement, portals, movement and whatever but passive stats added too much variance that you can't do anything about to outcome of the fight. And defending side is mostly cloud because _clouding works only when defending because 25% movement speed_. For example lets say you manage to defend durios and _think you're strong enough_ but the moment you leave durios and go hit enemy SM, you lose 400 stats + 25% MS (if no swift) + defender advantages, enemy gains 400 stats + 25%MS + defender advantages. Needless to say you will lose. There is absolutely no consistency or linear scaling for difficulty between spots across the map.

 

There are lot of things they need to fix about open tagging being enjoyable but basically running invisible tag gets rid of pugs and means you will never get to the situation where your team just clouds while defending. If they made open tagging _more enjoyable_, people wouldn't be so obsessed about winning to run closed discord only tags.

 

Btw guilds do not care about open tagging anymore because they're not bound to 1 server, pretty much all main servers are full (can't recruit) so they're on links and pugs change every 2 months. There is no enemy server to hate either because their players swap every 2 months. So timezones, pugs, friendly/enemy guilds/commanders and queues are randomized every 2 months. Needless to say, one big incentive to open tag: Caring about how well your server does is gone.

 

> **Tags and servers:**

>

> Getting around those problems require building community to a level that few servers can do anymore. We've gone from like 30 guilds on some servers to some 10 guilds on servers down to like 3 guilds on some servers over vanilla, HoT and PoF. If groups get inbred and, let's say, almost all remaining commanders on a server gets into the same guild on a server that still claims to try to build community, then that is fair critique. However, if it happens just to keep the guilds alive then it is another story and nothing that is different from guilds having a couple of tags each in the past. The motive is what's important. You can't fault anyone for keeping their guild alive but you can point out mistakes if they try to build community.

 

Can't build community with relinks every 2 months. Guilds would gladly stack on main servers but suprise surprise, almost all of them are full, some even permanently so, even if you manage to get in recruiting will be superhard. Doesn't help that people are torn between choosing their guild or favorite open commanders as timezone coverage swap every relinking and both are traveling around between servers.

 

Having common enemy is very important to build a community. Countries only come together during wartime. But such a thing can't exist with relinkings. Server that you face often will be completely unseen in following relinks. And their timezones, commanders and guilds will be different.

 

Overall WvW lacks emotion, hate towards enemy server, differing opinions within your own server. Both invisible tags and relinkings prevent these things from developing. And this is my main gripe with invisible tags, like you do something terrible with your guild? Stand up to it, fight for your believes, admit you were wrong. All this lost for "losing a few pugs that are following our closed raid". Like you could run closed tag alongside open tag before and get some verbal abuse for it, but if you believe that was the right thing to do, you should stand up to it instead of run invisible tag alongside open one.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

To add something about discord that doesnt *really* have anything to do with the topic yet can give a helpfull boost to joining discord for some that are hesitant. Joining multiple channels used to work with teamspeak and different profiles but when servers moved to discord a problem popped up.

 

**Discord and discord PTB (public test build) are two separate applications.**

 

I run with guildies quite often and we always come and go on the guild discord. Normally due to the way discord work that automaticly "exclude" me and my guildies from joining a discord commander while we want to chill and chat... But it doesnt have to. I have discord set up as voice activation and mute on alt, then I have discord PTB set up as push to talk on alt.

 

Just wanted to throw that out there not sure how many newer players is aware of it. I dont even know if there is an even easier way to solve that with discord today, lol.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

> @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> > because half of the "coordinated guilds" are plain newbies and need at least 1 year to become a serious guild group. @"PrinceValentine.9320" also u just describe a plain cloud... every serious zerg group just either ignores, sustains or disengages. clouding works if "zergs" contain too many newbies or bad sets. plus the clouds these days sometimes even outnumber the zergs.

> >

> > i also notice too many hidden tag runs lately. makes it very hard for pugs, even if u know your kitten, to get content. hidden groups only work against uncoordinated enemies, as they usually aren't bigger then ~30ish, but can beat even bigger groups.

> >

> > hidden tags are sadly necessary. pugs, especially those on ranger/thief etc often run with pets, minis, golem runes, mounted up or other kitten inside or nearby a stealthing guildgroup.... and mess up a guild groups stealth. if u reveal a stealth push, it'll just fail. this is the reason for closed groups and further for hidden tags.

> >

> > it's needed only bc many people refuse to learn Wvw and don't contribute, rather try to make the experience worse for everyone. there's clowns who fake-tag in the same color and reveal your group by throwing siege or mess up blasting etc.

> >

> > also yeah, groups on voice are easily 500% more effective in fights at least. opentags only work with big numbers and ideally experienced players on good pugclasses, who also know what they do without commands.

> > __

> > we're currently (t3 EU atm) this matchup is pure chaos. two hardcore ppt servers without serious fighting groups 24/7 zergsize clouds of them. it's just boring to fight that.

>

> SoS is currently dominating on T2 NA. This is not a tier for inexperienced zergs, they will be annihilated here really fast.

 

cannot tell how that works in NA, but in EU tiers basically mean nothing at all about how good a server is. literally nothing. the t3 servers are absolutely weak, t4 wasn't hard either, t5 only bc we had WSR to fight, basically the best fighting groups in the whole zone.

 

then again, guilds hop servers all the time, it's just random which server/link gets better.

 

so again, i highly doubt that really the tier = ppt score tells u anything about quality, it's just plain quantity. Wvw lives in a constant population imbalance.

 

also... u think ranger is good in any kind and seem to think cloudy formation is most legit? clouding is only if the server lacks tags and if the people aren't capable to play proper things. or if u lack numbers quite hard, so that u cannot do anything else but trying to kite things down. that's rather a "sh*ts cooking" and red alert signal from weak servers.

 

____________

about the invis tag:

it's often just misjudgement of guilds with 20-25 people to run hidden for hours; it makes concentration of forces just harder

 

however, opentag can be on voice, works better if it is. opentags sadly often lack the advantages of class balance and stealth options.

 

and visible tag can be closed if it is a closed guild run.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

> > SoS is currently dominating on T2 NA. This is not a tier for inexperienced zergs, they will be annihilated here really fast.

>

> cannot tell how that works in NA, but in EU tiers basically mean nothing at all about how good a server is. literally nothing. the t3 servers are absolutely weak, t4 wasn't hard either, t5 only bc we had WSR to fight, basically the best fighting groups in the whole zone.

>

> then again, guilds hop servers all the time, it's just random which server/link gets better.

>

> so again, i highly doubt that really the tier = ppt score tells u anything about quality, it's just plain quantity. Wvw lives in a constant population imbalance.

>

> also... u think ranger is good in any kind and seem to think cloudy formation is most legit? clouding is only if the server lacks tags and if the people aren't capable to play proper things. or if u lack numbers quite hard, so that u cannot do anything else but trying to kite things down. that's rather a "sh*ts cooking" and red alert signal from weak servers.

>

 

it's only good if you know how to play it. i run a support/condi build that can share burning, might and protection to the squad and has immobilize, can blast healing spring for condi cleanse and stun/daze for fleeing enemies. my build has 3.3k toughness that no zerk enemy can burst down. look at FA, they are like the worst crybabies when it comes to rangers being on thier squad yet their chrono commander gets easily isolated, killed and cries on Map Chat after. i play Firebrand more than I play ranger in wvw. If you can't accept my ranger on your squad, don't expect any support from my FB as well. For a server to be powerful, it has to be friendly towards WvW players, be it a veteran or a newbie. If they want help, you help them, if they want to play a certain class let them, they will know eventually what works for them best.

[cobbah.3102]

And then you get asked to leave map ,if you have nothing to bring to the group so they can bring thier zerg to said map , think it was myself that purchased the game and entitled to be on whatever border I choose.

[Veprovina.4876]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> And then you get asked to leave map ,if you have nothing to bring to the group so they can bring thier zerg to said map , think it was myself that purchased the game and entitled to be on whatever border I choose.

 

Is this NA or EU?

Because i was never asked to leave a map, or heard anyone tell someone to do so. :confused: I'm on EU.

I mean, it's kind of an "unwritten ettiquette" to do so, but i didn't see anyone bother anyone for not leaving a map.

Especially because most afk people, or people who don't zerg around are looking for outnumbered maps to maximize pip farm. They don't bother anyone there.

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > And then you get asked to leave map ,if you have nothing to bring to the group so they can bring thier zerg to said map , think it was myself that purchased the game and entitled to be on whatever border I choose.

>

> Is this NA or EU?

> Because i was never asked to leave a map, or heard anyone tell someone to do so. :confused: I'm on EU.

> I mean, it's kind of an "unwritten ettiquette" to do so, but i didn't see anyone bother anyone for not leaving a map.

> Especially because most afk people, or people who don't zerg around are looking for outnumbered maps to maximize pip farm. They don't bother anyone there.

 

NA happens and no I dont afk on maps , leave if need to.

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> And then you get asked to leave map ,if you have nothing to bring to the group so they can bring thier zerg to said map , think it was myself that purchased the game and entitled to be on whatever border I choose.

 

hah yeah i see that often in NA. I agree. I paid for the game and will play how i like and on whatever map i want. When i call them out in team chat they shut up pretty quick.

[God.2708]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

>

> hah yeah i see that often in NA. I agree. I paid for the game and will play how i like and on whatever map i want. When i call them out in team chat they shut up pretty quick.

 

This is a bizarre attitude to me, and I suppose one of the largest flaws of the current WvW system. WvW wasn't designed to be a PvP sandbox. It was designed to be a team sport. Could you imagine paying to join a football league and then telling your team 'I paid, I'll play how I want' and then just doing your own thing and ignoring everyone else? You'd make yourself out to be quite the kitten quick, assuming they couldn't immediately eject you. The only difference here is that players can't do that (probably for good reason). But, it's also been the heart of complaints about WvW since it's inception and what alliances are suppose to help fix so I can hardly say you are right in your attitude.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> > @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> > > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> > > because half of the "coordinated guilds" are plain newbies and need at least 1 year to become a serious guild group. @"PrinceValentine.9320" also u just describe a plain cloud... every serious zerg group just either ignores, sustains or disengages. clouding works if "zergs" contain too many newbies or bad sets. plus the clouds these days sometimes even outnumber the zergs.

> > >

> > > i also notice too many hidden tag runs lately. makes it very hard for pugs, even if u know your kitten, to get content. hidden groups only work against uncoordinated enemies, as they usually aren't bigger then ~30ish, but can beat even bigger groups.

> > >

> > > hidden tags are sadly necessary. pugs, especially those on ranger/thief etc often run with pets, minis, golem runes, mounted up or other kitten inside or nearby a stealthing guildgroup.... and mess up a guild groups stealth. if u reveal a stealth push, it'll just fail. this is the reason for closed groups and further for hidden tags.

> > >

> > > it's needed only bc many people refuse to learn Wvw and don't contribute, rather try to make the experience worse for everyone. there's clowns who fake-tag in the same color and reveal your group by throwing siege or mess up blasting etc.

> > >

> > > also yeah, groups on voice are easily 500% more effective in fights at least. opentags only work with big numbers and ideally experienced players on good pugclasses, who also know what they do without commands.

> > > __

> > > we're currently (t3 EU atm) this matchup is pure chaos. two hardcore ppt servers without serious fighting groups 24/7 zergsize clouds of them. it's just boring to fight that.

> >

> > SoS is currently dominating on T2 NA. This is not a tier for inexperienced zergs, they will be annihilated here really fast.

>

> cannot tell how that works in NA, but in EU tiers basically mean nothing at all about how good a server is. literally nothing. the t3 servers are absolutely weak, t4 wasn't hard either, t5 only bc we had WSR to fight, basically the best fighting groups in the whole zone.

>

> then again, guilds hop servers all the time, it's just random which server/link gets better.

>

> so again, i highly doubt that really the tier = ppt score tells u anything about quality, it's just plain quantity. Wvw lives in a constant population imbalance.

>

 

It's the same in NA. Tier means little. The differences are caused by coverage and the server linking process only looks at play hours and not timezones. I don't blame the server linking though. Quantity in coverage has been the winning strategy since launch, which is why certain servers early on started buying guilds for coverage and taught people to use auto-clickers to transfer to "Full" servers before the population algorithm was changed.

 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > And then you get asked to leave map ,if you have nothing to bring to the group so they can bring thier zerg to said map , think it was myself that purchased the game and entitled to be on whatever border I choose.

>

> Is this NA or EU?

> Because i was never asked to leave a map, or heard anyone tell someone to do so. :confused: I'm on EU.

> I mean, it's kind of an "unwritten ettiquette" to do so, but i didn't see anyone bother anyone for not leaving a map.

> Especially because most afk people, or people who don't zerg around are looking for outnumbered maps to maximize pip farm. They don't bother anyone there.

 

Yea that happens; small names big egos are everywhere on NA. Typically this is a kitten guild that can only run a map queue. I've even seen cases where they tell other guilds to leave the map despite the fact that the other guild is doing better than them.

 

It's trash though. Normally I would leave so other people can get in a queued map but if this starts happening, I start to stay a bit longer or even tag up myself lol to fish up the other straggler players that have been told to leave. We'll probably accomplish 10x more than those that 1 push into even numbers.

 

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> >

> > hah yeah i see that often in NA. I agree. I paid for the game and will play how i like and on whatever map i want. When i call them out in team chat they shut up pretty quick.

>

> This is a bizarre attitude to me, and I suppose one of the largest flaws of the current WvW system. WvW wasn't designed to be a PvP sandbox. It was designed to be a team sport. Could you imagine paying to join a football league and then telling your team 'I paid, I'll play how I want' and then just doing your own thing and ignoring everyone else? You'd make yourself out to be quite the kitten quick, assuming they couldn't immediately eject you. The only difference here is that players can't do that (probably for good reason). But, it's also been the heart of complaints about WvW since it's inception and what alliances are suppose to help fix so I can hardly say you are right in your attitude.

 

Team implies we treat each other as equals. Sometimes we have different opinions on what to do. One side going "my way or the high way" is not working as a team. Who died and made them dictator? I mean, I think more than half the people on my team on any given day are rallybots running godknowswhat, but that doesn't mean I don't try to work with them.

 

Just because someone put a dorito on their head doesn't make them the leader. Heck, they probably don't even have the catmander.

 

If they really wanted to give authority, it would just be like raids and fractals where you could kick out people that are liabilities. You can do that for squad, but definitely not on the map.

[kash.9213]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

 

But then you have to listen to them. The only time you need to know what one of those squads are up to is if they're going to bring lag and circles on your spot you're trying to profit from.

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> >

> > hah yeah i see that often in NA. I agree. I paid for the game and will play how i like and on whatever map i want. When i call them out in team chat they shut up pretty quick.

>

> This is a bizarre attitude to me, and I suppose one of the largest flaws of the current WvW system. WvW wasn't designed to be a PvP sandbox. It was designed to be a team sport. Could you imagine paying to join a football league and then telling your team 'I paid, I'll play how I want' and then just doing your own thing and ignoring everyone else? You'd make yourself out to be quite the kitten quick, assuming they couldn't immediately eject you. The only difference here is that players can't do that (probably for good reason). But, it's also been the heart of complaints about WvW since it's inception and what alliances are suppose to help fix so I can hardly say you are right in your attitude.

 

i think you're missing something here. The person asking for us to leave map don't know what we're doing. I could be in a 10-20 man squad capping towers and skirmishing very effectively. I could have been waiting for 30 min in queue to get onto map and then they expect me to leave?

Sorry but i can''t reconcile that kind of elitist "hey we're the 50 man map blob so we are better" attitude

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

>

> But then you have to listen to them. The only time you need to know what one of those squads are up to is if they're going to bring lag and circles on your spot you're trying to profit from.

 

It seems to be better if you just look away from them. The moment I look into their direction my fps dies. It's just like those fights in PvE where you have to look away from the enemy.

[Veprovina.4876]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > And then you get asked to leave map ,if you have nothing to bring to the group so they can bring thier zerg to said map , think it was myself that purchased the game and entitled to be on whatever border I choose.

> >

> > Is this NA or EU?

> > Because i was never asked to leave a map, or heard anyone tell someone to do so. :confused: I'm on EU.

> > I mean, it's kind of an "unwritten ettiquette" to do so, but i didn't see anyone bother anyone for not leaving a map.

> > Especially because most afk people, or people who don't zerg around are looking for outnumbered maps to maximize pip farm. They don't bother anyone there.

>

> NA happens and no I dont afk on maps , leave if need to.

 

Ah yeah, i heard that NA servers are a bit "more rude" let's say than the EU ones. :tongue:

I don't know what to tell you beyond that since i never encountered it.

I mean, roaming is more profitable on outnumbered maps anyway, so most people go there if they solo or small teams.

But if people still roam on zerg maps, i've never seen them get "chased off" the map or whatever...

Idk... Just you do you, and don't let yourself be bullied off the map.

One or 2 people won't make a difference anyway, and if there's 100 people scattered everywhere and not on tag then that's an entirely different problem lol. None of which can be solved by going off the map.

 

 

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> >

> > hah yeah i see that often in NA. I agree. I paid for the game and will play how i like and on whatever map i want. When i call them out in team chat they shut up pretty quick.

>

> This is a bizarre attitude to me, and I suppose one of the largest flaws of the current WvW system. WvW wasn't designed to be a PvP sandbox. It was designed to be a team sport. Could you imagine paying to join a football league and then telling your team 'I paid, I'll play how I want' and then just doing your own thing and ignoring everyone else? You'd make yourself out to be quite the kitten quick, assuming they couldn't immediately eject you. The only difference here is that players can't do that (probably for good reason). But, it's also been the heart of complaints about WvW since it's inception and what alliances are suppose to help fix so I can hardly say you are right in your attitude.

 

Roamers and people not on tag can still be beneficial on a map where the zerg is. They can call targets, scout which keeps are being attacked, monitor enemy blob movements. There's really no reason to chase the solo people off the map.

 

Like i said, 1 or 2 people not giving a "duck" about anyone playing, nor scouting, won't make a difference if those are gone and free up a spot for the zerg.

But if they're at least talking in team chat, what's the problem in letting them stay on a zerg map?

I mean, let people play how they want. Sonner or later they'll learn what the rest know already and will start following tags or scouting because that's the best for everyone, including them. I mean, that's why zergs exist in the first place. Players figured out it's the best tactic right?

 

Idk... Soloing on a zerg map doesn't make sense anyway since you'll never get outnumbered bonus there, and soloing is the best where outnumbered is because you can mess up their camps and supply while you get more pips. So i get both sides of the argument, but i just don't think it's *that* big of a deal.

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

>

> But then you have to listen to them. The only time you need to know what one of those squads are up to is if they're going to bring lag and circles on your spot you're trying to profit from.

 

Im referring to people who want to follow a tag but complain they dont want to be in discord. If you want to follow, then get on discord. If you are just roaming around you dont need discord anyway

[kash.9213]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > > Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

> >

> > But then you have to listen to them. The only time you need to know what one of those squads are up to is if they're going to bring lag and circles on your spot you're trying to profit from.

>

> Im referring to people who want to follow a tag but complain they dont want to be in discord. If you want to follow, then get on discord. If you are just roaming around you dont need discord anyway

 

If we're all the reading the map right we're all going to be following each other and fighting over each other. This isn't open world pvp, there's only so much room and only so many fights going on. They might think everyone is trying to follow them but for the most part some guild showing up isn't much of a factor to most people already there. But ya, if someone is tailing them and wants squad size loot they need to get with the program.

 

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > > Its not hard to open discord app and just listen. I rarely speak in discord because "reasons" but i can listen to what the tag wants when he calls for sneak gyro or positioning changes etc. Seriously how can anyone think its such an inconvenience

> >

> > But then you have to listen to them. The only time you need to know what one of those squads are up to is if they're going to bring lag and circles on your spot you're trying to profit from.

>

> It seems to be better if you just look away from them. The moment I look into their direction my fps dies. It's just like those fights in PvE where you have to look away from the enemy.

 

You'll still feel it behind you subtly but that is a good idea to try to control facing. When I'd lead alliance sieges in Age of Conan I would try to drag the enemy guilds to face towards the middle of the map where all of the objects and structures on the map wanted you to know they're there. I keep pan camera speed to full for catching stuff while running around but also sometimes I need the top down view for like a minute straight in some fights or bosses.

[Novahh.7426]

Lol Rangers in WvW

[Kovu.7560]

> @"Novahh.7426" said:

> Lol Rangers in WvW

 

You shut your boar mouth. =D

 

~ Kovu

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Novahh.7426" said:

> Lol ~~Rangers in ~~WvW

 

I've corrected that for you.

 

 

 

 

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

> @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> Closed squads are there because they are too selfish to share their boons/stab while non-members practically can share their boons to them. Their commanders will spam on chat to follow them so they can get supply and once they get wiped they'll start crying on chat. They are the most annoying groups in WvW. Once I get to a server plagued with these kinds of squads, I transfer immediately.

 

I cannot speak for anybody else, but as for my own guild and squad we generally run a closed squad because we prefer to keep things family friendly and lets be honest, there are plenty of folks out there that don't fit that mold. That is fine for them, and I'm not out to change them, but for ourselves we prefer not to have to listen to that. Closing our squad gives us some degree of control over that preference.

 

Another twist on the hidden vs visible tag is that at least on some servers, some players consider it fun/legitimate to log on to an account on a competing server to spot and announce the location of tags. I'm not going to debate the viability and sportsmanship of such, I'm very confident there are variety of perspectives on the matter. But when we get the sense that we are being spied on by an opposing server, hidden tags happen.

[Scribbin.2307]

No one wants my thief in the squad either. How dare the commanders demand certain classes to be in their squad????