WvW Spawn bad design

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Someone is bored and taking people for a troll ride lol.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

the weird thing is, the title of the post could have actually made a point. l

 

for example, he/she could meant red borderlands, where the spawn is just placed fundamentally wrong. imagine it was in mid of the map like alpine borders have... if u had only that and a flattened out & high ground mid section, desert border would be pretty similar to every other border and not harder to manouver around :9

 

@"Shining One.1635" 90% of the legendary defenders are placed just so wrong, they won't ever start attacking. should been removed ages ago... u cannot even enter the spawns anymore anyways afaik.

[Coelho Nat.4697]

The server that farms the spawn spot a lot is Mag. They keep an eye on the main exit with many sieges, but groups of roamers also keep hunting on the other 2 exits.

The solution I always put on map chat: "Since we don't have numbers, leave this map and go elsewhere", but some players like to be farmed for some reason.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

believe me one thing, it's not only one server. the worst are the small groups on all exists, bc u gotta be pretty slow if u let yourself getting farmed by a zerg tbh. u should see them miles ago normally.

 

lmfao i feel you... common sense would be to grab at leat 20-30 players and swap maps, but a crazy amount of people seem to rather get farmed for literally HOURS instead of doing so. literally kill/death tradeoff 1:50 ... that's like dark souls, the first time u play it and the skellies counting the amounts of times u fall.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Soon as I saw this I knew it was because of Mag.

They've done it non-stop for years.

 

Play the BL's or log out. Their community is pretty much 99% trash playing whatever FoTM safe spec is around to blast strings of unorganized pugs meanwhile proclaiming skill.

 

Deny them content. They get super mad and it's absolutely hilarious.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

I kinda feel for CD being caught in the middle of all this.

Its gonna be a sad 2 months for them as i see the server that drops from tier 3 will always win and move while these guys are stuck.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> I kinda feel for CD being caught in the middle of all this.

> Its gonna be a sad 2 months for them as i see the server that drops from tier 3 will always win and move while these guys are stuck.

 

Theyll have the safety of dbl after this week, fear not

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Woop S.7851" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > So, let me help here: there are maps other that eternal battlegrounds. The border lands work very well.

> > I feel bad that people keep walking into a death trap on the same map over and over and don’t seem to understand that there are other options, both within the map they are trying to enter ( 3 exits) and the other three maps. (Which each have three exits.)

>

> Thanks! Every bit of info helps! =)

> Would the below work to counter-balance such scenarios? (EBG as an map example)

>

> **[EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Battlegrounds) UI/UX Triggers:

> - After entering EB (1st time): minimap ping/flash for all 3 exits for player

> - **if:** player leaving spawn area alone, prompt/alert players with popup warning of venturing alone (borrow popup dialogue box from Strike missions or DRM)

> - Triggered first time joining map or when crossing the front-gate exit:

>

> 

>

> - Prompt/motivate players teaming up before existing spawn area

> - Currently missing automated [grouping find feature](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102056/commander-mentor-squad-gamemechanics-in-need-of-improvements-comments-feedback-suggestions) (can pop-up right away after entering map);

> - Add exit door portal (similar to the glowing doors used to enter a keep)

>

> **Timer-gated Triggers to counter spawn camping:**

> - Unlike [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) running 4 hour match reset at intervals, [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Battlegrounds) runs 24/7 with match ongoing throughout the week, if staying with this design:

> - Need timer triggered **intervention** functions (similar to board games like chess - it should not be 1 person's turn for a week 24/7)

> - Event triggers: based on battle conditions (Is Red dominating team Blue at spawn? Range? For how long? Red player #s vs. Blue, 10:1 ratio? etc.)

> -

> **Example:** Players given spawn point specific buffs (+200 toughness etc.), similar to [Objective Auras](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Objective#Guild_Objective_Auras), can be triggered alongside '[outnumbered](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outnumbered)', **if** both buffs lasts 15-minutes (5 x 3 warscore) or more, **trigger the following:**

> **- Apply -200 Toughness/vitality debuff for spawn campers in an area near spawn exit choke**

> **- Apply 'revealed' within an area near front exit choke**

> **- Remove [downed state](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Downed), apply [defeated](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeated) or instant death to enemy players within a radius of spawn area**

>

> What do you think? Comments, thoughts, concerns? :)

>

 

To quote Dr Evil:

 

**HOW ABOUT NO!!**

 

??

 

 

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

 

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> I mean, sure, Red BL kinda sucks, but if you're limiting yourself to 1/3 of WvW, that's not the game's problem either.

I was not talking about myself. I like red borderland (it's alpine that sucks!). I am not getting spawnfarmed. And what is Mag? (I know, it's some NA server I couldn't care less about as I play in EU)

 

But I am aware of the issues other players (or THE average player) have in the game mode and I have no interest in other people leaving the game.

 

The player base is ridiculously low. And two big reasons for that are the lack of QoL improvements and questionable design, e.g. giving gank squads opportunities to do their thing.

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

>

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > I mean, sure, Red BL kinda sucks, but if you're limiting yourself to 1/3 of WvW, that's not the game's problem either.

> I was not talking about myself. I like red borderland (it's alpine that sucks!). And I am not getting spawnfarmed. But I am aware of the issues other players (or THE average player) have in the game mode and I have no interest in other people leaving the game.

>

> The player base is ridiculously low. And two big reasons for that are the lack of QoL improvements and questionable design, e.g. giving gank squads opportunities to do their thing.

>

 

I was not directly talking to you either.

 

Again, this comes back to the underlying issue of the way links are effectively done. (I.e. they are made and then they significantly change undermining the population balance attempts Anet makes.)

 

The spawns aren’t the issue. That’s the initial post on here by the OP.

[LetoII.3782]

Matchup after matchup of one-sided blobfests but GaNk SqUaDS ArE tEh PrObl3m lolol

[Coelho Nat.4697]

As I said before: this happens usually when the farming server seriously outnumbers yours.

The best you can do is move to another map or play on different daytime. The farming group will get bored at some point if they can´t find anyone to kill.

However, it is impressive how some players like to be killed over and over. The farming group usually runs a specific build that is hard to kill in unfavorable conditions. Moreover, they have dozen of pushes and cc skills.

[Lya Babies.9632]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> Matchup after matchup of one-sided blobfests but GaNk SqUaDS ArE tEh PrObl3m lolol

 

right? Mag doesn't complain when the two other servers ktrain our bl and ebg keep back and forth with one another during ocx/sea/eu hours, leaving us ticking sometimes as low as 20, but suddenly it's a problem when these other servers can't rally up and take back their ebg territory during NA PRIME on NA servers. Even while we dominated EBG yesterday we were barely out ppting green because they had hordes of guild groups running around desert BL, so I don't get the excuse that they were somehow outnumbered or incapacitated. They just didn't want the fight.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"LetoII.3782" u mainly need glasses if u miss enemy blobs (40-60 players), game cannot help u there.

 

whilst the evil small ganker groups focus on picking off 2-3 players on their glasscannonthings out of stealth. it's way harder to avoid that, since there's no way to see them before. i regularly sniff, yet the radius is far too small, and yet stealthed up targets just won't be shown. literally got jumped by 3 thieves a second after i sniffed, from warclaw to dead a few seconds. that's the real toxic behaviour of Wvw. that's what should get restricted.

 

@lya the night crew farming people are a problem, since they are mainly ppl from other timezones having easy farms there. really unproductive but there's not really and out to this, outside of maybe temporarily closing Wvw at nights of the respective timezones, idk. would again annoy some people who have to play during these times.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

 

> i regularly sniff, yet the radius is far too small, and yet stealthed up targets just won't be shown. literally got jumped by 3 thieves a second after i sniffed, from warclaw to dead a few seconds. that's the real toxic behaviour of Wvw. that's what should get restricted.

>

 

Oh, you're one of those.

My mistake

[Woop S.7851]

A lot of good points on this post, can also sense a bit of frustrations, totally understandable, guessing there's been prolonged larger underlying issues in this game mode for a while now :o

 

**Perhaps we can zoom-out a bit to identify it:**

 

**Observations:**

- Spawn scenarios: higher chance when 'participants' # not balanced

- Map affected: [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Battlegrounds)

- Duration of occurrence: Hours+, days+

- Q: Are server linking at play?

- Q: Is there a lack of checks/balances in the system?

- Terrain: [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) uses the triangle design method from [board games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_checkers#History_and_nomenclature), [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) does not

 

**Time-gate Comparisons:**

- [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) runs 24/7 - matches reset in 1 week durations

- [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) runs 24/7 - matches reset every 4 hours (gameboard reset), or 6 times a day (Macro-intervention present using time-gates to counteract prolonged imbalance)

 

**Results:**

- Prolonged 1-sided dominance (24/7 hours+) negates opponents' interaction/participation on gameboard

- Players switch/leave map and/or game mode, general negative play experiences

- [score points](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World#Mechanics) tilted to 1-sides' favor? (duration: 1 week)

 

**Scenario based analysis (crosscheck our reasoning/assumptions) using the [Fishbone Ishikawa Model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram):**

- Dissect the area into key components to objectively observe interactions/processes:

(Terrain, Timers, NPCs, Player behaviors - if anything I've missed please add! :))

 


 

- Constructive comments, feedback + solutions always welcomed! Let's tackle the problem togetha! Please share your thoughts! =)

 


[Hesione.9412]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

> >

> > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > I mean, sure, Red BL kinda sucks, but if you're limiting yourself to 1/3 of WvW, that's not the game's problem either.

> > I was not talking about myself. I like red borderland (it's alpine that sucks!). And I am not getting spawnfarmed. But I am aware of the issues other players (or THE average player) have in the game mode and I have no interest in other people leaving the game.

> >

> > The player base is ridiculously low. And two big reasons for that are the lack of QoL improvements and questionable design, e.g. giving gank squads opportunities to do their thing.

> >

>

> I was not directly talking to you either.

>

> Again, this comes back to the underlying issue of the way links are effectively done. (I.e. they are made and then they significantly change undermining the population balance attempts Anet makes.)

>

> The spawns aren’t the issue. That’s the initial post on here by the OP.

 

Added to this: the server that purposely tanks in order to get into a tier where they _can_ do this. If the match-ups were even, this wouldn't even be a thing because they'd be too busy defending/retaking.

 

The current match-up system isn't working, it hasn't worked for years, at this point rolling a fair die would possibly do a better job.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"Woop S.7851" That's a bunch of fancy diagrams (with very little relevance to the issue as a whole) but almost has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There are three exits from blue spawn; there's another whole path literally outlined on the map leading to Bravost and another one leading out behind lang, which said blob won't be able to shut down.

 

The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

 

If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

 

So deny them content. If they want to play a different game than the rest of the GW2 community, they can go play a different game, and they won't be missed.

There's like three people on that server I respect who will take disadvantaged or even fights and don't throw huge tantrums when they lose. The rest are KDA whores who go into full meltdown mode if they die, acting like GW2 is an extension of that shitty Sword Art show.

[tobin.6754]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> @"Woop S.7851" That's a bunch of fancy diagrams (with very little relevance to the issue as a whole) but almost has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There are three exits from blue spawn; there's another whole path literally outlined on the map leading to Bravost and another one leading out behind lang, which said blob won't be able to shut down.

>

> The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

>

> If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

>

> So deny them content. If they want to play a different game than the rest of the GW2 community, they can go play a different game, and they won't be missed.

> There's like three people on that server I respect who will take disadvantaged or even fights and don't throw huge tantrums when they lose. The rest are KDA kitten who go into full meltdown mode if they die, acting like GW2 is an extension of that kitten Sword Art show.

 

 

I like this, you can't lose if you don't play mentality.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"tobin.6754" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Woop S.7851" That's a bunch of fancy diagrams (with very little relevance to the issue as a whole) but almost has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There are three exits from blue spawn; there's another whole path literally outlined on the map leading to Bravost and another one leading out behind lang, which said blob won't be able to shut down.

> >

> > The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> > If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

> >

> > If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

> >

> > So deny them content. If they want to play a different game than the rest of the GW2 community, they can go play a different game, and they won't be missed.

> > There's like three people on that server I respect who will take disadvantaged or even fights and don't throw huge tantrums when they lose. The rest are KDA kitten who go into full meltdown mode if they die, acting like GW2 is an extension of that kitten Sword Art show.

>

>

> I like this, you can't lose if you don't play mentality.

 

This is actually Mag's mentality. Hide in SMC until you vastly outnumber your opponent...then, all of a sudden, you want "fights". This way they can't ever lose. One on one they have shown to be not very proficient or skilled (although there are a handful who are very adept at solo play), but they are very good at having multiple thieves and soulbeasts press 1 and instakill people who don't realize Mag has a 5v1 advantage, or wouldn't even be outside.

[Woop S.7851]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

>

> If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

 

Thanks, that's interesting :p was not aware of this, currently I'm on Henge of Denravi, there's a reset today, HoD will be up against Maguma, guessing I'll be able to experience it first-hand B)

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Woop S.7851" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> > If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

> >

> > If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

>

> Thanks, that's interesting :p was not aware of this, currently I'm on Henge of Denravi, there's a reset today, HoD will be up against Maguma, guessing I'll be able to experience it first-hand B)

>

 

You want actual fights from Mag, take and try to keep SMC.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Woop S.7851" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> >

> > > The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> > > If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

> > >

> > > If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

> >

> > Thanks, that's interesting :p was not aware of this, currently I'm on Henge of Denravi, there's a reset today, HoD will be up against Maguma, guessing I'll be able to experience it first-hand B)

> >

>

> You want actual fights from Mag, take and try to keep SMC.

 

We did (OCX). We took your SMC and your keep. The 10 or so that died a few times either logged off or went to play pve.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Woop S.7851" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > >

> > > > The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> > > > If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

> > > >

> > > > If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

> > >

> > > Thanks, that's interesting :p was not aware of this, currently I'm on Henge of Denravi, there's a reset today, HoD will be up against Maguma, guessing I'll be able to experience it first-hand B)

> > >

> >

> > You want actual fights from Mag, take and try to keep SMC.

>

> We did (OCX). We took your SMC and your keep. The 10 or so that died a few times either logged off or went to play pve.

 

Lol. You think I’m on Mag?

 

Those people that know me would crack up.

 

So would Mag players if they knew me.

 

?

[tobin.6754]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"tobin.6754" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Woop S.7851" That's a bunch of fancy diagrams (with very little relevance to the issue as a whole) but almost has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There are three exits from blue spawn; there's another whole path literally outlined on the map leading to Bravost and another one leading out behind lang, which said blob won't be able to shut down.

> > >

> > > The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance.

> > > If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot.

> > >

> > > If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content.

> > >

> > > So deny them content. If they want to play a different game than the rest of the GW2 community, they can go play a different game, and they won't be missed.

> > > There's like three people on that server I respect who will take disadvantaged or even fights and don't throw huge tantrums when they lose. The rest are KDA kitten who go into full meltdown mode if they die, acting like GW2 is an extension of that kitten Sword Art show.

> >

> >

> > I like this, you can't lose if you don't play mentality.

>

> This is actually Mag's mentality. Hide in SMC until you vastly outnumber your opponent...then, all of a sudden, you want "fights". This way they can't ever lose. One on one they have shown to be not very proficient or skilled (although there are a handful who are very adept at solo play), but they are very good at having multiple thieves and soulbeasts press 1 and instakill people who don't realize Mag has a 5v1 advantage, or wouldn't even be outside.

 

People should really learn to play these classes that can press 1 for instakills then.