22k Deaths Judgement After the "fix"

[Turk.5460]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> OriOri is 100% right on this one. Hit-Combos downing u are ok in my opinion, but 1-hit-down abilitys are too strong, even if u need setup for it etc. 1-Shot-1-Death abilites demand every Player to play perfect, because if they do one mistake they die.

>

> Are we that far into the Game, that 1 mistake kills u?

>

> Many people said that OP had 12-21 seconds to "do something". U can run away´, hide between walls etc, but u can't do anything against the DE itself.

> If we go into a Team situation in which we have like a 2v2 and two DE's for each team, whats going to happen? The four people are fighting mid, using there blocks etc, and in between suddenly 2 people die.

>

> How can i counter beeing seen by the enemy's DE if I have to stay on Point to secure winning?

 

This is WvW we are talking about, but sure, I'll bite - something tells me that a grand total of zero sPvP teams desire 2 Thieves of any build.

[Sobx.1758]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

> > @MUDse.7623 said:

> > you are both right- that one DJ did deal that much damage but it needs skills and traits and malice to hit that high. i dont know how the deadeye was playing the OP was talking about so i can only give an example of my deadeye.

> > while taking this shot from this night :

> > 

> > i had the following stats :

> > 

> >

> > + 7% crit dmg from twin fangs, + 10% crit dmg from ferocious strikes + 20% crit chance from snipers cover + 21% dmg from malice + 105% dmg modifier through malice on DJ +5% damage from sigil +10% scholar.

> >

> > 5/9 majortraits are purely for damage increase, alot of damage comes from assassins signet and ofc full berserk.

> >

> > damage will notibly drop when below 90% health as i lose scholar and twinfang dmg bonus there.

> >

> > so yes alot of skills and traits and gear all has to work together to pull of high numbers but its still just 1 hit that delivers all of those stuff packed together.

> > very tanky players with protection i cannot onehit, but i did onehit quite a few commanders this week...

> I am the Reaper you killed there. I posted that number in teamchat and we had a good laugh.

>

> I was full marauder (28k HP) and you were D/P perma stealthing while generating malice with your F1, then ported at melee range and swapped to rifle to fire your DJ (no skill-combo, just one single skill usage), that it was undodgeable for me.

>

> This is the new metabattle no-skill thief trollbuild you run there. It's even more kitten than perma stealth condi trapper a year ago.

 

Do you understand that you can dodge skills (and this one is strongly telegraphed and has a decently long cast time on top of the fact that you need to actually be marked a good ""few"" seconds earlier)? You literally learn that on lvls 2-8.

So yeah, totally no counterplay except for the part where there's a counterplay.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Chaba.5410 said:

> > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > @Chaba.5410 said:

> > > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > > > @Chaba.5410 said:

> > > > > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > > > > All of that damage, all 22k of it, came from a single hit from death's judgement.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No it didn't. It came from bonuses applied by stealth traits and Deadeye's Mark malice stacks which take over 12 seconds to accumulate to high enough stacks to provide one-shot capability. Player had more than enough time and warning to do something effective against the shot including kiting away.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > LOL you can't even deny that the damage all came from a single hit. Go on, show me how that damage comes from multiple hits. Do it. I'm waiting.

> > > > >

> > > > > Use the damage formula published on the wiki without including the bonus damage from Deadeye's Mark to explain how Death's Judgement can one-shot someone. I'm waiting.

> > > >

> > > > You have kitten screenshots of a single hit from deaths judgement doing that much damage. You guys are in some extreme denial in this thread.

> > >

> > > Of which no one else but you is ignoring the other skills/traits which required waiting at least 12 long seconds to produce that high number. No one can get that high of a number from Death's Judgement without the bonus damage from Deadeye's Mark. Only you are trying to compare waiting 12 seconds of a highly telegraphed mark to a quick multi-hit combo burst of mesmer skills where opponents aren't given anywhere near the same amount of time to react.

> >

> > Its pointless arguing with some of you thiefs honestly. All of that damage is coming in a single hit. You can't deny that, yet somehow you keep on trying. Its honestly quite funny watching you guys try to reason your way out of this one. All of that damage comes in 1 hit. All of it. Enough to down any player. In 1 hit. That's not good game design, and never will be.

>

> What are your thoughts on my reply to your previous post? I apologize if it reads rude, I was trying to paint a picture.

 

Thoughts on your reply? Its just an attempt at deflecting from the point I'm trying to make, whether intentional or not. I don't think you were being rude, I more so think that you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. You can argue about setup all you want, about the traits and conditions you need in order to get off that damage from DJ. You can go on and on about how much time you need to build malice, and that you have to mark players etc etc etc. But none of that changes the fact that a setup DJ will one shot most any player in the game except high HP classes that built lots of vitality into their build. THAT is the problem. Not that it requires setup. Not that OP should have reacted to it in some way, but the simple fact that there is a way to buff the damage of DJ to the point where a single hit from it will down any player in the game just due to how much damage is coming in from that single hit.

 

And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid ass mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

 

I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.

 

First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.

 

On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.

 

And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

> > @MUDse.7623 said:

> > you are both right- that one DJ did deal that much damage but it needs skills and traits and malice to hit that high. i dont know how the deadeye was playing the OP was talking about so i can only give an example of my deadeye.

> > while taking this shot from this night :

> > 

> > i had the following stats :

> > 

> >

> > + 7% crit dmg from twin fangs, + 10% crit dmg from ferocious strikes + 20% crit chance from snipers cover + 21% dmg from malice + 105% dmg modifier through malice on DJ +5% damage from sigil +10% scholar.

> >

> > 5/9 majortraits are purely for damage increase, alot of damage comes from assassins signet and ofc full berserk.

> >

> > damage will notibly drop when below 90% health as i lose scholar and twinfang dmg bonus there.

> >

> > so yes alot of skills and traits and gear all has to work together to pull of high numbers but its still just 1 hit that delivers all of those stuff packed together.

> > very tanky players with protection i cannot onehit, but i did onehit quite a few commanders this week...

> I am the Reaper you killed there. I posted that number in teamchat and we had a good laugh.

>

> I was full marauder (28k HP) and you were D/P perma stealthing while generating malice with your F1, then ported at melee range and swapped to rifle to fire your DJ (no skill-combo, just one single skill usage), that it was undodgeable for me.

>

> This is the new metabattle no-skill thief trollbuild you run there. It's even more kitten than perma stealth condi trapper a year ago.

 

against reapers i dont stay perma stealthed (cause too many of them run auto shroud and they can be kited) and i tried to attack you before malice was up but you went LoS in this fight. i got this one as well as 2nd fight on video very laggy cause i used wrong settings in my recording programm but if needed i can upload them.

and no i dont run metabattle build, mine does more damage.

 

edit: in both fights you did 2 things when i went visible (both not with DJ mind you) you used shroud 2 and axe 2. you missed shourd 2 both times and axe2 well the first time you didnt target me cause i did restealth and 2nd time i interrupted it by porting through you.

[Chaba.5410]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.

 

Thank you. Basically this is the reason "balance" cannot be limited to merely damage numbers as some people believe it should. The skill would become completely useless.

[takatsu.9416]

> @LetoII.3782 said:

> > @takatsu.9416 said:

> > I still don't understand where the thought no single hit should down a player from 100% health comes from. Who said that is the rules of the game?

> Arenanet used to say this. They also used to say they'd never give teef a 1200 range weapon. Then PoF

>

> I'd find the interviews for you but naaaaah

 

I don't really care what they say because it's action not words. Alot of the words in public are PR statements. And alot of the diff teams and staff changes can affect direction. Look at mounts. The entire core game was designed so we don't need mounts. Player feedback also influences their choices. Alot of things do. But just think about it objectively, why should there not be a one shot sniper build? There are like three or four shot builds with a ton of tankiness and sustain. There are scourge Condi spam aoe. Alot of different powerful and dangerous mechanics are in the game and it's all a fair fight as far as I can see. None of these classes are unkillable. I agree there should be a bigger con to them sometimes but you can counter all builds depending on how you play. I've been practicing to not even switch builds, weapons or utilities when countering classes because I believe in the field I likely won't get an opportunity and that practice, knowledge and play skill can make up for the counter. As far as my experience goes, that has been largely the case. After more practice runs 1v1 against decent players I start getting more consistent wins because I am responding correctly. Also I count dropping the confident opponent to 2% health and them having to run for it, a win. If a thief has to run and is almost dead, I let them run. It doesn't always have to be defeat. They know they could've died if I had pursued them and have admitted defeat by running. And they won't be able to get back because I am aware of my surroundings, terrain and I'll see them coming. Anyway the spirit to improve with what you've got and just become better yourself with transferrable and adaptable skills will give you the success. I've never been bursted by a mesmer again after once or twice for example. It won't happen again if you are well practiced.

[Notjes.7182]

After hundreds of hours I have been one shotted for the first time today, because I just stood there and dodged the first two 30k hits. On the 3rd Judgement it hit me with 33k. :open_mouth:

aaaahhnneeet fixx!

[MUDse.7623]

> @Notjes.7182 said:

> After hundreds of hours I have been one shotted for the first time today, because I just stood there and dodged the first two 30k hits. On the 3rd Judgement it hit me with 33k. :open_mouth:

> aaaahhnneeet fixx!

 

and why didnt you shoot back in between those dogges? :D

[OriOri.8724]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

>

> I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.

>

> First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.

>

> On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.

>

> And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.

>

>

 

I get where you are coming from, and why you are so adamant that the skill is fine, but its still bad design for it to be able to hit so hard in a single hit. The skill itself doesn't have to be nerfed that hard, if at all. Like you said yourself, thief has access to a lot of %dmg modifiers, and this is why this problem exists with DJ in the first place. There are a variety of places that the devs could address this without just nerfing the power scaling on DJ into the ground.

[primatos.5413]

> @Notjes.7182 said:

> After hundreds of hours I have been one shotted for the first time today, because I just stood there and dodged the first two 30k hits. On the 3rd Judgement it hit me with 33k. :open_mouth:

> aaaahhnneeet fixx!

 

08/15 Pro DJ Answer : l2p ..see.. most thiefes doing like .. maybe 4 to 7 dodges in a row before restealth .. being unable to do so is clearly a l2p issue *sarcasm off*

[Notjes.7182]

> @MUDse.7623 said:

> > @Notjes.7182 said:

> > After hundreds of hours I have been one shotted for the first time today, because I just stood there and dodged the first two 30k hits. On the 3rd Judgement it hit me with 33k. :open_mouth:

> > aaaahhnneeet fixx!

>

> and why didnt you shoot back in between those dogges? :D

 

I was guarding a camp and dat teef restealthed quickly. I just wanted to see if I can dodge long enough until he gives up :p

The problem with dodging is when he ports right next to you, you have no indicator of the kill shot. There is no red line to dodge. You are just dead and your signet of stone pops :disappointed:

[MUDse.7623]

> @Notjes.7182 said:

> > @MUDse.7623 said:

> > > @Notjes.7182 said:

> > > After hundreds of hours I have been one shotted for the first time today, because I just stood there and dodged the first two 30k hits. On the 3rd Judgement it hit me with 33k. :open_mouth:

> > > aaaahhnneeet fixx!

> >

> > and why didnt you shoot back in between those dogges? :D

>

> I was guarding a camp and dat teef restealthed quickly. I just wanted to see if I can dodge long enough until he gives up :p

> The problem with dodging is when he ports right next to you, you have no indicator of the kill shot. There is no red line to dodge. You are just dead and your signet of stone pops :disappointed:

 

when he ports right next to you, he will be visible sitting next to you thats even better than laser.

 

you can also shoot without laser on range with action cam and no target, but then you have to aim.(i am not sure about the sound tells doing this.)

[XenesisII.1540]

So just because there's a dodge it's ok to implement one shot skills?

Ok then please add more one shot skills to the game for each class, thank you.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @Notjes.7182 said:

> After hundreds of hours I have been one shotted for the first time today, because I just stood there and dodged the first two 30k hits. On the 3rd Judgement it hit me with 33k. :open_mouth:

> aaaahhnneeet fixx!

 

How do you tell the first two hits were 30k if you dodged them (I don't see numbers of potential hits if I dodge, maybe I'm not looking/distracted)? If they were at full malice stacks for the first two dj it would need remarking and time for buildup of malice again [+regen of ini]. How much time elapsed after the first two until they hit you again with third dj?

[atheria.2837]

> @LetoII.3782 said:

> > @atheria.2837 said:

> > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > The fix was to make sure only large damage hits Marked targets, the fact that you got hit with the Plethora Of Tells 4 Visual, 2 Audio, the Damage doesn’t even come from stealth, it’s a L2P issue, you had a giant target above your head/Below your feet, a Orange Laser, a Red Trailing projectile, the Pojectile Audio tell, the One Shot one Kill Audio tell and a Revealed Thief... all of which if you post is to be taken seriously and they passively generated that Malice then you would have been Marked for well over 12 secs to receive that damage...

> >

> > What target?

> >

> > If you are talking about wvw or pvp, I haven't seen a target above my head in over a year.

> >

> > If you're talking about 'red circle' tells, uh, lag negates that as well as so many other factors it's just ridiculous.

>

> You've never seen the big red dot over your head with corresponding red circle around you on the ground?

>

> Must be nice. -_-

 

I am trying to tell Anet that there are 'issues' that they aren't comprehending.

 

I know I am 'targeted' but there's no SIGN I am being targeted.

 

Anet is not comprehending WvW nor its issues and problems.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

> >

> > I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.

> >

> > First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.

> >

> > On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.

> >

> > And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.

> >

> >

>

> I get where you are coming from, and why you are so adamant that the skill is fine, but its still bad design for it to be able to hit so hard in a single hit. The skill itself doesn't have to be nerfed that hard, if at all. Like you said yourself, thief has access to a lot of %dmg modifiers, and this is why this problem exists with DJ in the first place. There are a variety of places that the devs could address this without just nerfing the power scaling on DJ into the ground.

 

Maybe, they could remove +%'s, but they'd have to do it across the board for all classes, and then probably adjust coefficients across all the skills on all classes to compensate for PvE. I'm only making the following suggestion because I think it would be too big of a change to comb through all the professions and weapons and Reba Lance everything.

 

A faster way to prevent instant kills between players in Pvp and WvW would be to do something like a scaling cap on the damage from any one ability, or maybe the damage 1 player can do to another player in 1 second. Say, at base power, the most damage 1 player can do to another player is 50% of their health. For every 100 power you can do 2.5% more damage maximum in terms of that player's health. So at 3000 power, you could one-shot a player with no additional toughness. Conversely, toughness could scale at -1.5% for every 100 toughness. So at 3000 armor, a player with only 1000 power could only hit you for 20% of your maximum health, a player with 3000 power could hit you for 70% of your health, and at 4000, they'd hit you for 95%. Condis could have a maximum amount the same way with vitality being the negative slope. That way they could control the ramp more closely between players. Basically it would chop off the ends of the bell curve of damage.

 

Anyway, I'm against a straight damage cap because it punishes people for going glass cannon and if they hit someone who has invested nothing into toughness, they should be rewarded for it. I'm generally against nerfing skills straight up because players with balanced builds will be punished as their damage suffers because of a smallish portion of the player base min/maxing. However, I can see the frustration with people being one shot.

 

[OriOri.8724]

I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

[MUDse.7623]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> A faster way to prevent instant kills between players in Pvp and WvW would be to do something like a scaling cap on the damage from any one ability, or maybe the damage 1 player can do to another player in 1 second. Say, at base power, the most damage 1 player can do to another player is 50% of their health. For every 100 power you can do 2.5% more damage maximum in terms of that player's health. So at 3000 power, you could one-shot a player with no additional toughness. Conversely, toughness could scale at -1.5% for every 100 toughness. So at 3000 armor, a player with only 1000 power could only hit you for 20% of your maximum health, a player with 3000 power could hit you for 70% of your health, and at 4000, they'd hit you for 95%. Condis could have a maximum amount the same way with vitality being the negative slope. That way they could control the ramp more closely between players. Basically it would chop off the ends of the bell curve of damage.

 

the problem is we get more and more option for extremes in both directions offensive and defensive. just think of the amount of boons, boonhate, heals, cc, special effects(i.e. rev dwarf elite) that you can apply now to like 3 years ago. the people that suffer from this changes are the ones that dont play these extremes cause they might get instant killed AND they might encouter opponents they cant kill cause too defensive.

damage caps will just shift the balance of the extremes towards defense and we will get some kind of bunker meta - yey!

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @MUDse.7623 said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > A faster way to prevent instant kills between players in Pvp and WvW would be to do something like a scaling cap on the damage from any one ability, or maybe the damage 1 player can do to another player in 1 second. Say, at base power, the most damage 1 player can do to another player is 50% of their health. For every 100 power you can do 2.5% more damage maximum in terms of that player's health. So at 3000 power, you could one-shot a player with no additional toughness. Conversely, toughness could scale at -1.5% for every 100 toughness. So at 3000 armor, a player with only 1000 power could only hit you for 20% of your maximum health, a player with 3000 power could hit you for 70% of your health, and at 4000, they'd hit you for 95%. Condis could have a maximum amount the same way with vitality being the negative slope. That way they could control the ramp more closely between players. Basically it would chop off the ends of the bell curve of damage.

>

> the problem is we get more and more option for extremes in both directions offensive and defensive. just think of the amount of boons, boonhate, heals, cc, special effects(i.e. rev dwarf elite) that you can apply now to like 3 years ago. the people that suffer from this changes are the ones that dont play these extremes cause they might get instant killed AND they might encouter opponents they cant kill cause too defensive.

> damage caps will just shift the balance of the extremes towards defense and we will get some kind of bunker meta - yey!

 

Well, it would really just affect the extremes, but yeah, it could lead to a meta of extremes. I was thinking that for an average power and armor nothing would change, but it could push people into maxing power or toughness. The suggestion came from basically thinking that it would be too difficult for them to go through every skill simultaneously to bring them back in line with so few balance patches per year. If there were small adjustments every couple of weeks with mechanics changes every 3 months, I'd have more confidence in it.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

 

Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

 

Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

[MUDse.7623]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

>

> Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

>

> Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ would have been 10.41 instead of the 14.18 representing a 25% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now.

 

additive multipliers will make the thieves DPS in PvE drop by a lot more than other classes i think. so they will increase the numbers. that i onehit alot of people with DJ is one thing but most 0 thoughness people i can hit like 20-25k backstab and that is alot harder to avoid, if they make multipliers additive but increase thieves base damage numbers to get their DPS up again, backstab will probably get closer to DJ - not sure if thats a great idea.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @MUDse.7623 said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

> >

> > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

> >

> > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ would have been 10.41 instead of the 14.18 representing a 25% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now.

>

> additive multipliers will make the thieves DPS in PvE drop by a lot more than other classes i think. so they will increase the numbers. that i onehit alot of people with DJ is one thing but most 0 thoughness people i can hit like 20-25k backstab and that is alot harder to avoid, if they make multipliers additive but increase thieves base damage numbers to get their DPS up again, backstab will probably get closer to DJ - not sure if thats a great idea.

 

I fixed the numbers from the quote because I messed something up, but yeah, I understand the reluctance to this too. The idea behind this one is that the max and min values would be much closer together if the damage were additive, so some multipliers might have to go up, but they'd only have to deal with damage being about twice the original value instead of over 4 times the original value, making it easier to balance (hopefully). A skill hitting between 10k and 20k is a lot easier to balance than 10k and 40k I would think.

 

[babazhook.6805]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

>

> I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.

>

> First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.

>

> On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.

>

> And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.

>

>

 

I suspect that with a few of the new skills and trait changes for warrior, Gunflame damage can be very significant. I have not tried it norr would I suggest it viable without testing but I can imagine strength/arms/berserker with rifle. Take KICK as a utility. Take signet mastery to build uber high ferocity. Build up ferocity via signet use prior to the shot ,kick at the air (33 percent boost) and take the shot.

 

For WvW

 

Out of STR a potential of 33% (Peak performance) 10 percent (stick and move) 21 percent Bersekers power

Out of Arms Signet mastery for ferocity stacking (Pushing it close to 300 percent all sources) using Burst precision for a guaranteed crit.

 

Then The Berserker line to get that Gunflame. Always angry 7 percent , blood reaction more ferocity and bloody roar for 10 percent boost in berserk mode.

 

Then of course the Sigil/food/runes boosts. With Signet of might traited you can even make sure that shot can not be blocked. I might well fool around with such a build in the near future.

[TreK.3794]

DJ is probably the easiest thing in the whole game to predict and dodge..