Ashen.2907 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > Either have trinity or a 100% dps game > > Sums up everything and is the reason why Gw2 will never be competitive and will never be taken seriously Hopefully no MMOs are taken too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > Either have trinity or a 100% dps game > > > > **Sums up everything and is the reason why Gw2 will never be competitive and will never be taken seriously** > > Hopefully no MMOs are taken too seriously. re-read the exact wording before commenting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > It failed because the devs couldn't figure out how to design fights for a non-trinity system. > > I seriously thought I was alone in thinking that. > > Non-trinity combat didn't fail, per se, but the combat designers were still designing fights for older paradigms. When everyone can heal and mitigate damage, it makes more sense to threaten lots of players at once, rather than hamfisting a KO onto one of them. But most of what we got were champs that chase one character around and bludgeon it to death and then move onto the next. > > We got monoliths, when we should have been contending with swarms or larger groups of exceptional enemies. We should have multiple objectives, which is something we started to see during LS1 and the Marionette fight. Ironically, that's also something GW1 has done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > What really was a failure was not the multiplicative stat stacking. It was _having traditional-style gear with stats in a game based around action combat and active defenses_. They tried to mix two very different systems, and it doesn't really work all that well together. What is ironic is that the old GW1 armor/attribute system they've abandoned was actually more suited to the combat system we have now. Pretty much this. I would **still** prefer (personally) if I could play dedicated healers, tanks, debuffers, etc. But, I agree fully that having gear stats in GW2 is a **terrible** idea, and the sooner the devs finally get rid of them, the longer GW2 can survive until it tapers off. It prevents a host of possible class- and balance-fixes, it causes issues left and right and center, it ruins entire class designs (Revenant, anyone?) and worst of all, it prevents baking proper strengths and weaknesses into the *class design*. Because the impact of gear choices is *so* great that any effort to design or balance at a class or spec level is either amplified 20x, or sanded down 20x. Everything gets pushed to its worst possible edge case by gear stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaborkaldy.3210 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 At the end of the day i believe it is party failed, partly not. Failed because few game mode requires the **dedicated** healer, tank and DD (e.g. Raid, GvG (the thing we do in WvW instead of doing it actually in a dedicated arena) but partially works as there are several professions who can do these. The original idea was to avoid the "must have" party setup but for example in Raid parties are still waiting on these tryinity positions to fill up before everything else. Just in 2018 we are not saying LF Pro Monk rather we say LF Druid Healer, Chrono Tank etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > Either have trinity or a 100% dps game > > > > > > **Sums up everything and is the reason why Gw2 will never be competitive and will never be taken seriously** > > > > Hopefully no MMOs are taken too seriously. > > re-read the exact wording before commenting > > I read the exact wording before commenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I think GW2 system is the best I have seen in mmo. And you do have roles, which are defined by your stats and build. It is more of a soft healer or tank, versus a full trinity like other mmos. It is a pretty good system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zet.9130 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > It failed because the devs couldn't figure out how to design fights for a non-trinity system. > > I seriously thought I was alone in thinking that. > > Non-trinity combat didn't fail, per se, but the combat designers were still designing fights for older paradigms. Since beta I've been confused as to why after they decided to do away with the "trinity" they implemented 3 classes of armor. Struck me as a bit Orwellian "You are all equal, but some are more equal than others". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minion.1987 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 it did fail since condition and damage rule the game making it rather boring and coming close to diablo 3 when it comes to damage now that i think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"minion.1987" said: > it did fail since condition and damage rule the game making it rather boring and coming close to diablo 3 when it comes to damage now that i think of it. because a healing/toughness build would make the game really exciting? That makes no sense. Look, the game is designed in a way that makes the the defensive stats largely unnecessary .. BUT, for some people, those stats are still useful, so they use them. It's also relevant for WvW. The whole discussion doesn't make much sense because the non-trinity approach didn't fail at all and if it did, why would stats on gear have anything to do with that? The non-trinity doesn't fail ... because there is a large number of stat configurations.... that's completely illogical. The only way a game designed for non-trinity could fail is if content was designed around trinity configurations AND there was no availability to set yourself up into a trinity role. We don't have any of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryan Arlande.6184 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Remember the times of trinity and playin' with a healer in GW1? http://thenoobcomic.com/comic/193/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 > @"Aryan Arlande.6184" said: > Remember the times of trinity and playin' with a healer in GW1? > > http://thenoobcomic.com/comic/193/ Yes. http://web.archive.org/web/20070214051430im_/http://www.crithitcomics.com:80/healbot04.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 The core game was too easy. The mobs are trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 > @"Atmaweapon.7345" said: > In vanilla GW2, it was Zerker or bust. Being able to choose 3 multiplicative damage stats that blew up enemies before they could kill you was the best route to take and any damage taken had to be mostly avoidable through dodges, blocks, and reflects. > > So what if we didn't have multiplicative damage stats? What if you had one main damage stat and the other stats you picked were utility or survival oriented in nature? Since both players and enemies wouldn't blow up as fast, would things have developed a different way? > > For example, eliminate Precision, Ferocity, and Expertise. Would everyone go Power/Cond/X stat? Or would increases from your off-stat be somewhat negligible, like Druids that can mix Harrier/Minstrel pieces without much fuss? The problem was not the damage stats, the issue was there was simply no point to invest in Vitality, Toughness or Healing Power, as far as PvE goes. In that front, it was simply an issue of poor encounter design that still exists today, but overall the core build designs were well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 This game was designed for pure dps originally and gw2 always had a trinity dps,controll,support controll and support was not a thing orewas ever used before hot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew.1865 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 The non trinity system rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jihm.2315 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 gw2 is a 90% single player game that you occasionally interact with others you can and you should go full selfish build because its more beneficial than support and you can say you assisted then when they needed a res but even that a lot times backfires in fractals because you can kill your self also if you try to res and look bad also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Gw 2 has also now a fake trinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Imo, the vanilla iteration of no trinity was a massive failure, but not in any way related to the stats system. Linking it to berserker gear being overpowered is just ridiculous. It was just a half-assed attempt - all attacks designed to be entirely avoidable by active defense, which is a good thing, but the devs never explored the consequences this game design would have required. We had (and have) incredibly bad telegraphs by tiny enemy models, not enough active avoidance tools on the classes and not enough self-healing to deal with the former issue. Staff daredevil is about the only class that would have fitted into the vanilla system - and it was introduced just with HoT. Introducing proper support builds was a logical and welcome step, since the devs obviously did not want to fix the aforementioned issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImTasty.2163 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said: > > @"Atmaweapon.7345" said: > > In vanilla GW2, it was Zerker or bust. Being able to choose 3 multiplicative damage stats that blew up enemies before they could kill you was the best route to take and any damage taken had to be mostly avoidable through dodges, blocks, and reflects. > > > > So what if we didn't have multiplicative damage stats? What if you had one main damage stat and the other stats you picked were utility or survival oriented in nature? Since both players and enemies wouldn't blow up as fast, would things have developed a different way? > > > > For example, eliminate Precision, Ferocity, and Expertise. Would everyone go Power/Cond/X stat? Or would increases from your off-stat be somewhat negligible, like Druids that can mix Harrier/Minstrel pieces without much fuss? > > Confusing. It could be that the AI was so primitive that allowed full zerker or bust to exist. It's not like enemies in this game intentionally try to interrupt you (like some encounters did in GW1 ironically). At worst their are some scripted dances to follow that hopefully disrupt your optimal rotations. So I too fail to see why the conclusion is that "non-trinity" failed. I think it was a combination of things really. One, most champ+ enemies had defiance so CC was useless. Also, at earlier stages of the game a lot of healing abilities gave you some large healing without having to invest in healing power. You also had a condi cap of 25 at the time that made most condi builds really inferior. Add in primitive AI that was basically just there for you to slap around gives you a full damage meta. Now, thanks to the addition of break bars, removing some base healing from skills but increasing the bonus they receive from healing power, removal of the condi cap, and AI that is smarter than a log has given players more incentive to use other stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Not at all. A trinity is an optimal approach to beating content most consistently/fastest, except content gets designed around it that way. Sub-optimizations exist in the Trinity just as any other strategy. It's why you'll get laughed out of a raid playing tank support/res "ninja nurse" thief or glass cannon necro. While these work in other formats and were previously fine in dungeons, people have deemed them unacceptable in terms of performance, or simply, the raid content has just been made not to support these styles altogether. Are the current raids any less exclusive in terms of requirements than the old zerk-stack gameplay in terms of dungeons? No. The sole reason being that the no-trinity toxicity came entirely from the players themselves as a result of ANet not giving any new fresh group content/dungeon updates/etc. while a large percentage of raw gold came from dungeons, which of course people wanted to speed-run for shinies after the dungeons lost their luster when running them the 10000th time. What failed is ANet not designing alternatives in their content to support players wishing to play in other styles progressing the content quicker, nor implementing more content which was duration-based and survival-based. What failed is them not adding content where they needed to in order to help with replayability (aether path is a good example of doing this). All of ANet's failures have come from failures of game design. See: Professions and the PvP formats. Little has to do with numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 1 Non trinity has not failed, gw2 is nearly 5 years old and offers a rich set of skills and variance in game play that other trinity games can only dream of. 2. Trinity is a simplistic outdated approach where numbers > gameplay complexity. 3. Nothing has failed, this is those trinity heads who just cannot cope with a game that is focused on the roles beyond meat shield, heal spammer or dps spammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Wait. It failed? I missed that memo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 It didnt fail since 5 year down the line they continue to deliver content for said system that works that playa out really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauried.5608 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Maybe if people could define what they mean by a trinity system. eg in such a system could only healers rez dead players? And should healing classes not be able to do any damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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