Weapons shouldnt be locked behind elite specs

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"blueberry.2504" said:

> I personally like the different weapons behind elite specs. It gives more flavour, more character. Not everything has to be a generic boring pile.

 

Would seem like more detailed Espec mechanics would do a better job at this then the weapon imo.

 

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> feels like you want to use cheat weapons that aren't meant for your spec and make things unbalanced. normal necro with gs or torch feels wrong.

 

Not really sure how using a weapon on another spec would be cheating. It wouldn't even break the game, just add more options for those that would rather try different things.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> No it doesn't nullify it's existence. That's a ridiculous statement. I can't think of a single espec where the weapon locked behind it isn't designed to 'fit' for the espec itself. A situation where the espec weapon fits BETTER outside the espec traits doesn't exist.

 

If you look on meta battle(boring source for builds) it even gives a good example on what elite specs dont even perform the best with their main weapons. Saying there are no better builds for weapons outside the Espec isnt true either. You wouldnt know unless you were able to test these options.

 

> >

> > It is a issue when it comes to build variety.

>

> My first reaction to that ... variety is good, but the concept of the espec is more important. It's not like we start with NO variety, so having the weapon outside the espec is necessary to have any. We do have variety, so it's OK for some weapons to lock behind specs.

 

The concept of Espec could still live on outside of just the weapon like Ive been saying. It isnt the weapons that make the Spec, its the mechanics and utility skills. Even if you remove the weapon requirement you would still keep the importance of having them. This is already being shown within the game where core weapon picks have been chosen over many Espec weapons.

 

 

 

> @"Turin.6921" said:

>

> WvW is not the only mode though. PvE builds have both weapons. You cannot judge a weapon based on only a single game mode.

 

Yet people are saying since it works in PvE (And only PvE) it is fine. Everything works in PvE, even if it isnt optimal.

 

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

> >

> > A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

> >

> > You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

>

> Huge red flag in general. Everything works in PvE no matter how good or bad it is. Just saying it works could mean its very weak in other parts of the game. Which is why its a red flag, basically a useless weapon just like how we have useless utility skills that only work well in PvE (Turrets for example).

>

> It gives low variety of use and continues to pigeon hole you more then we already are now. This isnt even due to the ESpec's mechanics, its just due to bad weapon design at this point. Soulbeast doesnt even seem to compliment dagger in anyway. Could actually see it being more useful on a build that doesnt waste its traitline pick on soulbeast.

 

This is false. The fact is that you can use every single weapon in every game mode, but some weapons are weaker in certain game modes.

 

Some examples

 

Weak weapons in PVE (Raids/fractals especially):

 

Warrior off-hand mace, off-hand sword, warhorn barely sees any use, hammer

DH longbow, guardian focus barely sees any use, mace/shield while having good heals never really see any usage in PVE, staff

Renegade shortbow, revenant hammer

Scrapper hammer, engineer shield

Thief shortbow, sword

Ranger off-hand dagger, sword has been replaced by axe

Elementalists rarely use focus in PVE, daggers are fun but way out of any kind of meta set up these days

Mesmer staff, scepter, greatsword

Necromancer focus has little flavor to it, in general necro is doing quite weakly in PVE aside from epi, staff

 

If you see the pattern here, vast majority of these weapons are used either in PVP or WvW.

[Ashen.2907]

To be honest, I like the fact that tying weapons to elite specs creates more tradeoffs in game.

[Zahld.4956]

If weapons were not elite spec locked they could give one or more different skill sets when other elite specs are used or if none are used.

[Artemisa.9013]

I understand the arguments of having a new weapon linked to a new elite spec, however I'd like the possibility of wielding that new weapon without running that elite spec. Not after training the first elite trait (that would be 'too easy', in my opinion) but after training the whole elite. And to maintain that link between weapon and elite, the weapon could have some benefits when used with that elite. Example: warhorn/Tempest would have advantages over warhorn/Weaver or core Ele.

I think something like this could work - or could have worked.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > No it doesn't nullify it's existence. That's a ridiculous statement. I can't think of a single espec where the weapon locked behind it isn't designed to 'fit' for the espec itself. A situation where the espec weapon fits BETTER outside the espec traits doesn't exist.

>

> If you look on meta battle(boring source for builds) it even gives a good example on what elite specs dont even perform the best with their main weapons. Saying there are no better builds for weapons outside the Espec isnt true either. You wouldnt know unless you were able to test these options.

>

There is alot wrong with how you think here. Meta battle gives examples of builds that people feel are optimized for specific content. That doesn't mean the weapons aren't the best fit for the espec; there is more to 'fit' than performance. Besides, your argument works BOTH ways ... you also can't argue that espec weapons work better outside of the espec if you can't test those options. By default, the espec weapons ONLY work in especs, so that's their 'best' performance. Trivial, but true. You're basing your arguing on a hunch they MIGHT work better ... a weak reason at best to change it.

> > >

> > > It is a issue when it comes to build variety.

> >

> > My first reaction to that ... variety is good, but the concept of the espec is more important. It's not like we start with NO variety, so having the weapon outside the espec is necessary to have any. We do have variety, so it's OK for some weapons to lock behind specs.

>

> The concept of Espec could still live on outside of just the weapon like Ive been saying. It isnt the weapons that make the Spec, its the mechanics and utility skills. Even if you remove the weapon requirement you would still keep the importance of having them. This is already being shown within the game where core weapon picks have been chosen over many Espec weapons.

 

There are lots of things that COULD be and imagining any of them doesn't make a compelling argument to change anything. You complain about lack of variety, then you turn around and say there are builds where core weapon picks are chosen over Espec weapons ... you don't see the contradiction you're making here? The fact that you CAN and people DO choose core weapons over Espec ones shows that variety is alive and well in this game.

 

The fact is that regardless of what restrictions exist on a weapon, there are modes where certain weapons shine ... and others don't. That's not a reason to remove those restrictions. You probably haven't noticed, but most game devs work REALLY hard to maintain the concepts of the game they develop and in this case, there is no argument to diminish the Espec by removing the weapon restriction that adds to its flavour. Aside from that, there are practical reasons and historical ones this won't happen.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> There is alot wrong with how you think here. Meta battle gives examples of builds that people feel are optimized for specific content. That doesn't mean the weapons aren't the best fit for the espec; there is more to 'fit' than performance. Besides, your argument works BOTH ways ... you also can't argue that espec weapons work better outside of the espec if you can't test those options. By default, the espec weapons ONLY work in especs, so that's their 'best' performance. Trivial, but true. You're basing your arguing on a hunch they MIGHT work better ... a weak reason at best to change it.

Meta battle, while a boring source for builds, actually gives some pretty legit optimized setups to run, most of the time it is the actual cream of the crop. And it does sort of give a idea on how a weapon performs when it comes to using a elite spec. If there are 7 builds for a Espec and 1 or none use the elite spec weapon, it kind of shows where the weapon lies interms of usefulness. The idea that that weapon could be used elsewhere on better builds that can be tuned to counter its weaknesses is the idea im trying to promote. Even if it doesnt, if people would like to run specific weapons instead on any build they created it could only be a positive for the player.

 

Wouldnt it be a hunch to say that elite spec weapon only perform best on elite specs there assigned to? Its not like you can test it either to say its a weak reason. Havent really seen any strong reasons not to change it either aside from people saying that it gives "flavor"? at the cost of variety .

 

> There are lots of things that COULD be and imagining any of them doesn't make a compelling argument to change anything. You complain about lack of variety, then you turn around and say there are builds where core weapon picks are chosen over Espec weapons ... you don't see the contradiction you're making here? The fact that you CAN and people DO choose core weapons over Espec ones shows that variety is alive and well in this game.

>

> The fact is that regardless of what restrictions exist on a weapon, there are modes where certain weapons shine ... and others don't. That's not a reason to remove those restrictions. You probably haven't noticed, but most game devs work REALLY hard to maintain the concepts of the game they develop and in this case, there is no argument to diminish the Espec by removing the weapon restriction that adds to its flavour. Aside from that, there are practical reasons and historical ones this won't happen.

 

Nothing I said is really contradicting when im going against multiple points. When I say that people are using core weapons over the elite spec weapons, then im clearly saying that even with there being weapons focused on elite specs, it doesnt mean they do the best job. So whats the point of keeping those weapons tied to the ESpec? If there was a clear performance increase when using a exclusive weapon I could see the benefits of it being tied down. Also, If the skills themselves made sense enough to only be attached to that elite spec then i could also see that. But we dont really have that in our exclusive weapons, because the weapon doesnt really define specialization, the mechanics and traits do.

 

While there are weapons that do shine in specific areas of the game, there are builds that could bring out even better results with those weapons to allow them to be used in more modes. Espec would not be diminished because you remove the weapon with the reason stated in the above paragraph. Also saying practical reasons why it wouldnt happen isnt really a good argument, devs said there wouldnt be mounts, but look where we are now.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > There is alot wrong with how you think here. Meta battle gives examples of builds that people feel are optimized for specific content. That doesn't mean the weapons aren't the best fit for the espec; there is more to 'fit' than performance. Besides, your argument works BOTH ways ... you also can't argue that espec weapons work better outside of the espec if you can't test those options. By default, the espec weapons ONLY work in especs, so that's their 'best' performance. Trivial, but true. You're basing your arguing on a hunch they MIGHT work better ... a weak reason at best to change it.

> Meta battle, while a boring source for builds, actually gives some pretty legit optimized setups to run, most of the time it is the actual cream of the crop. And it does sort of give a idea on how a weapon performs when it comes to using a elite spec.

 

So you can justify your idea based on the vagaries of imagining how things work from metabattle ... but I can't refute you suggestion because we can't test elite weapons outside of elite specs ... that's awesome logic. Let's be honest here. You don't know and I don't know ... but I'm not going to guess. We can see elite specs have things in them that work with the elite weapons; they are DESIGNED to work with each other. That much is obvious. There are NOT only performance considerations here ... the concept (as much as you want to dismiss it) IS as much or more important, as we can see from Anet's many years of changing the game. I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you just aren't aware.

>

>Havent really seen any strong reasons not to change it either aside from people saying that it gives "flavor"? at the cost of variety .

>

Maybe not to you, but they do exist and they are important. Unless you're going to acknowledge that performance isn't the only factor here, there isn't much point to try to discuss these other reasons with you.

 

> > There are lots of things that COULD be and imagining any of them doesn't make a compelling argument to change anything. You complain about lack of variety, then you turn around and say there are builds where core weapon picks are chosen over Espec weapons ... you don't see the contradiction you're making here? The fact that you CAN and people DO choose core weapons over Espec ones shows that variety is alive and well in this game.

> >

> > The fact is that regardless of what restrictions exist on a weapon, there are modes where certain weapons shine ... and others don't. That's not a reason to remove those restrictions. You probably haven't noticed, but most game devs work REALLY hard to maintain the concepts of the game they develop and in this case, there is no argument to diminish the Espec by removing the weapon restriction that adds to its flavour. Aside from that, there are practical reasons and historical ones this won't happen.

>

> Nothing I said is really contradicting when im going against multiple points. When I say that people are using core weapons over the elite spec weapons, then im clearly saying that even with there being weapons focused on elite specs, it doesnt mean they do the best job. So whats the point of keeping those weapons tied to the ESpec? If there was a clear performance increase when using a exclusive weapon I could see the benefits of it being tied down. Also, If the skills themselves made sense enough to only be attached to that elite spec then i could also see that. But we dont really have that in our exclusive weapons, because the weapon doesnt really define specialization, the mechanics and traits do.

>

> While there are weapons that do shine in specific areas of the game, there are builds that could bring out even better results with those weapons to allow them to be used in more modes. Espec would not be diminished because you remove the weapon with the reason stated in the above paragraph. Also saying practical reasons why it wouldnt happen isnt really a good argument, devs said there wouldnt be mounts, but look where we are now.

>

You're position that elite weapons should be usable outside the spec is solely about performance (that you can't even quantify). Fortunately, that's not the only factor to consider. Besides, the whole 'better performance' argument isn't relevant anyways ... there are lots of weapons and builds with them in this game that aren't highly performing ... yet we still have them. 'Not being the best' isn't a relevant argument and never has been. We have choice because of flavour, not performance. Making an argument that we should have more variety because of performance just isn't inline with how the game works. If it was, we wouldn't have optimal builds ... we would have a whole bunch of similarly performing ones. This is where the contrary nature of your request lies.

 

[iKeostuKen.2738]

No one said you cant refute, but im saying throwing the idea out due to people not being able to theorycraft builds together is not a very smart reason.

 

I never argued that performance is the only factor, I said to open build variety to let people pick and choose what they wanted to play. Someone said that it wouldnt offer anything in terms of creating viable builds, But I strongly disagree with that. And brought up the point that even the exclusive weapons do not offer the best possibilities.

 

[Obtena.7952]

That makes no sense. Proposing the idea based on a guess on the improvements to performance OR the idea this adds variation in a game where there are clearly optimal builds is not a very smart reason. Somehow, you've assumed your suggestion leads to either or both. I see no reason to believe it leads to either, simply based on how the game currently works; we already see how game design leads to optimization, even WITHOUT especs and there is no shortage of variation in builds.

 

The most prominent reasons for not doing this are pretty obvious: the way it's designed is already a pretty done decision that require Anet to do nothing because it's not actually a problem ... and it's not worth the work to implement it just to test if your presumptions about variation and performance are correct. If you want more variations, there are WAY easier way to achieve that WITHIN the current restrictions of the especs and game design. If you want performance, you can choose the builds that already give you that. If you want variation, you have choice to play with the game design already. Assuming that unlocking weapons outside of especs is no guarantee of performance and arguably, little impact on variation.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

It seems as though your overthinking the idea a bit to much or maybe not grasping it at all? The idea is to give more options and allow players to play the way they want to without unnecessary restrictions. As I said, It could open up to more viable builds, this was in response to someone saying that it would only cause non viable builds due to Especs being designed around a weapon due to the traits. (Which only adds 1 optional trait for the weapon.)

 

Not really sure how one can say that this wouldnt add variation. Thats obviously a case of denial. Could it offer improvements, thats a maybe. Unable to know if we never open the gates to be allowed to test such things. I say yes though because there have been awkward combinations of weapons and abilities that have worked in the past. Would be worth a shot and interesting enough to dive deeper into the theorycrafting field with more options to work from and see if a build that the player could enjoy for themselves could be made.

 

Saying its the way its designed isn't really a good reason as things can always be redesigned as a game evolves. Old design choices get brought back and changed in mostly every mmorpg. Case and point being on how some classes have been revamped (Mesmer clones/phantasms) from their vanilla counterparts. Boons and conditions have been revamped in the past as well. Anet really doesnt have anything to lose if they do knock out the restrictions and its not as if it would be a ton of work to do it in the first place.

 

Please share some of the easier ways to increase build variation outside of removing the restrictions on exclusive weapons. This would kill 2 birds with one stone as it would also open up a new trait line to be selected from for more build options as well as having a new weapon(s) to use.

[STIHL.2489]

I think a good compromise would be, once you fully unlock the Elite Spec, you can use the Weapon on any build.

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> For the life of the game it would probably be best if elite specs only contained skills and mechanics. Not weapons.

 

The weapons are half of your skills. They are often tied to the mechanics.

 

[Zeivu.3615]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

> > >

> > > A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

> > >

> > > You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

> >

> > Huge red flag in general. Everything works in PvE no matter how good or bad it is. Just saying it works could mean its very weak in other parts of the game. Which is why its a red flag, basically a useless weapon just like how we have useless utility skills that only work well in PvE (Turrets for example).

> >

> > It gives low variety of use and continues to pigeon hole you more then we already are now. This isnt even due to the ESpec's mechanics, its just due to bad weapon design at this point. Soulbeast doesnt even seem to compliment dagger in anyway. Could actually see it being more useful on a build that doesnt waste its traitline pick on soulbeast.

>

> This is false. The fact is that you can use every single weapon in every game mode, but some weapons are weaker in certain game modes.

>

> Some examples

>

> Weak weapons in PVE (Raids/fractals especially):

>

> Warrior off-hand mace, off-hand sword, warhorn barely sees any use, hammer

> DH longbow, guardian focus barely sees any use, mace/shield while having good heals never really see any usage in PVE, staff

> Renegade shortbow, revenant hammer

> Scrapper hammer, engineer shield

> Thief shortbow, sword

> Ranger off-hand dagger, sword has been replaced by axe

> Elementalists rarely use focus in PVE, daggers are fun but way out of any kind of meta set up these days

> Mesmer staff, scepter, greatsword

> Necromancer focus has little flavor to it, in general necro is doing quite weakly in PVE aside from epi, staff

>

> If you see the pattern here, vast majority of these weapons are used either in PVP or WvW.

 

I have made almost all of those work, except maybe the the rev hammer and the ranger dagger work. Perhaps, you need to l2p PvE?

 

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

> > >

> > > A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

> > >

> > > You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

> >

> > Huge red flag in general. Everything works in PvE no matter how good or bad it is. Just saying it works could mean its very weak in other parts of the game. Which is why its a red flag, basically a useless weapon just like how we have useless utility skills that only work well in PvE (Turrets for example).

> >

> > It gives low variety of use and continues to pigeon hole you more then we already are now. This isnt even due to the ESpec's mechanics, its just due to bad weapon design at this point. Soulbeast doesnt even seem to compliment dagger in anyway. Could actually see it being more useful on a build that doesnt waste its traitline pick on soulbeast.

>

> This is false. The fact is that you can use every single weapon in every game mode, but some weapons are weaker in certain game modes.

>

> Some examples

>

> Weak weapons in PVE (Raids/fractals especially):

>

> Warrior off-hand mace, off-hand sword, warhorn barely sees any use, hammer

> DH longbow, guardian focus barely sees any use, mace/shield while having good heals never really see any usage in PVE, staff

> Renegade shortbow, revenant hammer

> Scrapper hammer, engineer shield

> Thief shortbow, sword

> Ranger off-hand dagger, sword has been replaced by axe

> Elementalists rarely use focus in PVE, daggers are fun but way out of any kind of meta set up these days

> Mesmer staff, scepter, greatsword

> Necromancer focus has little flavor to it, in general necro is doing quite weakly in PVE aside from epi, staff

>

> If you see the pattern here, vast majority of these weapons are used either in PVP or WvW.

 

They are not weapons that are used in meta compositions. Are we talking about meta, tho? Because, if so, then the builds will shift to other weapons, making previous weapons non meta. Also, many are not concerned about meta. Weaker weapons? Yes. Useless? No. I found myself playing with ele focus, with dagger (FA dagger temp can still be a thing), with scepter, anything goes. Powerscourge was my favorite in open world map comp, things just melted away, no epi used (staff+ axe/focus/warhorn) Why does it always have to be about meta?

I really hope the game doesnt shift into a hard-content style. GW2 has always been about having fun, not minmaxing stats/only meta builds/dps 37k+ or kick...

[flog.3485]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

> > > >

> > > > A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

> > > >

> > > > You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

> > >

> > > Huge red flag in general. Everything works in PvE no matter how good or bad it is. Just saying it works could mean its very weak in other parts of the game. Which is why its a red flag, basically a useless weapon just like how we have useless utility skills that only work well in PvE (Turrets for example).

> > >

> > > It gives low variety of use and continues to pigeon hole you more then we already are now. This isnt even due to the ESpec's mechanics, its just due to bad weapon design at this point. Soulbeast doesnt even seem to compliment dagger in anyway. Could actually see it being more useful on a build that doesnt waste its traitline pick on soulbeast.

> >

> > This is false. The fact is that you can use every single weapon in every game mode, but some weapons are weaker in certain game modes.

> >

> > Some examples

> >

> > Weak weapons in PVE (Raids/fractals especially):

> >

> > Warrior off-hand mace, off-hand sword, warhorn barely sees any use, hammer

> > DH longbow, guardian focus barely sees any use, mace/shield while having good heals never really see any usage in PVE, staff

> > Renegade shortbow, revenant hammer

> > Scrapper hammer, engineer shield

> > Thief shortbow, sword

> > Ranger off-hand dagger, sword has been replaced by axe

> > Elementalists rarely use focus in PVE, daggers are fun but way out of any kind of meta set up these days

> > Mesmer staff, scepter, greatsword

> > Necromancer focus has little flavor to it, in general necro is doing quite weakly in PVE aside from epi, staff

> >

> > If you see the pattern here, vast majority of these weapons are used either in PVP or WvW.

>

> They are not weapons that are used in meta compositions. Are we talking about meta, tho? Because, if so, then the builds will shift to other weapons, making previous weapons non meta. Also, many are not concerned about meta. Weaker weapons? Yes. Useless? No. I found myself playing with ele focus, with dagger (FA dagger temp can still be a thing), with scepter, anything goes. Powerscourge was my favorite in open world map comp, things just melted away, no epi used (staff+ axe/focus/warhorn) Why does it always have to be about meta?

> I really hope the game doesnt shift into a hard-content style. GW2 has always been about having fun, not minmaxing stats/only meta builds/dps 37k+ or kick...

 

But most are already min-maxing stats: People that choose metabattle builds or snowcrows or qT (in the past). Those builds are the result of people that have min-maxed stats in the game.

 

Now for the topic at hand....

I can’t get behind the idea, for three reasons off the top of my head.

Firstly, giving a weapon away for a spec that did not use this weapon doesn’t always work. For warrior, dagger berserker f2 skill simply doesn’t exist and it would mean that for every new weapon introduced they would need to design a new f2 for berserker. That is really not sustainable.

 

Secondly, balance is important and for that I am gonna use the example of mesmer. No amount of balance would be able to properly tune a mirage using a shield, unless they completely gut the weapons in the first place. For this particular example there is no choice being offered here. It is pure power creep.

 

Thirdly, it is really unfair when talking about the expansion model. I purchased expansions so that my warrior could use dagger and torch, my necro greatsword and torch etc...., don’t give away this small privilege to players that downloaded the game for free.

[Lonami.2987]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> For the life of the game it would probably be best if elite specs only contained skills and mechanics. Not weapons.

>

> Traits could still give damage buffs and cooldown reductions, but this would open up many options for people to theorycraft and live out there dream characters with.

>

> Wouldnt worry much about balance issues if youl be splitting up abilities per mode in the future either. PvE and WvW being the least of worries.

>

> Do you Ladies and Gents think this would be a good idea? Could it push class depth even more without having much demand for more elite specs in the future? Maybe even open up new patch updates where its just new weapons while we leave expansions for more utility/elite skills and mechanics that could expand on certain weapons and abilities.

 

I think the main problem is that elite specialization weapon design is flawed. New weapons introduced with elite specs should have synergies with the new mechanics, making them only useful for the elite specializations.

 

Instead, most are just normal weapons with normal skills. So, there's a redesign needed there, or they should be unlocked for the whole profession.

 

Ideally, every expansion should add new weapons to the core professions as well, letting it grow on multiple directions, instead of just the elites.

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Meta battle, while a boring source for builds, actually gives some pretty legit optimized setups to run, most of the time it is the actual cream of the crop. And it does sort of give a idea on how a weapon performs when it comes to using a elite spec.

Wait, didn't you open this idea on the argument that allowing elite spec weapons on builds outside of the spec would open up build variety? What does build variety have to do with which weapons are used in optimized meta builds?

 

Allowing elite spec weapons to be used on builds outside of their specific e-spec could lead to one of two things: either builds using these weapons outside of their specs wouldn't be optimal, in which case those builds wouldn't turn up on a site like meta battle anyway, or theory crafters would come up with an op combination, in which case you'd have the exact balance problem ANet is trying to prevent by locking weapons to their e-specs (namely mixing of different e-spec components opening up the possibility of imbalanced builds).

 

So what exactly is your goal with this change: more variety of non-optimal builds or the hope of coming up with something more optimal than we have now?

[Martimus.6027]

It does suck when the intended weapon for an elite spec is sub par (I'm a Firebrand and axe isn't even in most Meta builds and guides I've seen, just Scepter/torch). I think some specs really need more of a trait reward for using the weapon associated with it.

[FyzE.3472]

Holosmith with hammer.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Please share some of the easier ways to increase build variation outside of removing the restrictions on exclusive weapons. This would kill 2 birds with one stone as it would also open up a new trait line to be selected from for more build options as well as having a new weapon(s) to use.

 

Again, what problem is 'increasing build variation' solving? We have build variation. If you are talking about OPTIMIZED build variation, then it's simply a matter of making other weapons better and no elite spec weapon locks have to change at all.

 

I don't really follow your reasoning for wanting things we have and why you've settled on lifting the elite weapon restriction as the solution. TO be honest, I think you are just fishing for reasons to lift the restriction and have somehow settled on 'we don't have enough variation in builds' as the problem you think it solves. ... except that's not a problem. In addition, ignoring the reasons lifting the restriction is a bad idea. /shrug. I can only be consoled in the fact that this is highly likely to never be changed, because it's an established fundamental of what defines an elite Spec. GL with your campaign.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > For the life of the game it would probably be best if elite specs only contained skills and mechanics. Not weapons.

>

> The weapons are half of your skills. They are often tied to the mechanics.

>

 

They honestly are not. Probably just holosmith and it was a terrible decision since it should have just been a espec mechanic that applied to all weapons.

 

> @"flog.3485" said:

> Now for the topic at hand....

> I can’t get behind the idea, for three reasons off the top of my head.

> Firstly, giving a weapon away for a spec that did not use this weapon doesn’t always work. For warrior, dagger berserker f2 skill simply doesn’t exist and it would mean that for every new weapon introduced they would need to design a new f2 for berserker. That is really not sustainable.

>

> Secondly, balance is important and for that I am gonna use the example of mesmer. No amount of balance would be able to properly tune a mirage using a shield, unless they completely gut the weapons in the first place. For this particular example there is no choice being offered here. It is pure power creep.

>

> Thirdly, it is really unfair when talking about the expansion model. I purchased expansions so that my warrior could use dagger and torch, my necro greatsword and torch etc...., don’t give away this small privilege to players that downloaded the game for free.

 

1) Good point, Since I dont play warrior i forgot all about the f2. But, I dont really see that being a ton of work though, its one skill that just gets tossed onto the pile of what is already coming. Got classes that get more then 10 abilities sometimes.

 

2) Mirage with shield doesnt seem as op as people are making it out to be. Chronomancer has access to alacrity and can negate cooldown. Mirage doesnt really have access to that.

 

3) This one doesnt really hold water. Gw2 is ever evolving and things you may have purchased or worked towards in the past may be negated by things currently or future released updates.

 

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> Wait, didn't you open this idea on the argument that allowing elite spec weapons on builds outside of the spec would open up build variety? What does build variety have to do with which weapons are used in optimized meta builds?

>

> Allowing elite spec weapons to be used on builds outside of their specific e-spec could lead to one of two things: either builds using these weapons outside of their specs wouldn't be optimal, in which case those builds wouldn't turn up on a site like meta battle anyway, or theory crafters would come up with an op combination, in which case you'd have the exact balance problem ANet is trying to prevent by locking weapons to their e-specs (namely mixing of different e-spec components opening up the possibility of imbalanced builds).

>

> So what exactly is your goal with this change: more variety of non-optimal builds or the hope of coming up with something more optimal than we have now?

 

Thats not in context to what I opened with. Someone stated that exclusive weapons were designed to be used with the class, but i countered that argument with an example of meta builds that seem to show otherwise. Just because it was designed with the class, doesnt mean its best used with it.

 

Anet not taking away exclusive weapons isnt really balancing the game either, just saying. This could also only be applied to both WvW/PvE if they want to keep SPvP the way it is.

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > For the life of the game it would probably be best if elite specs only contained skills and mechanics. Not weapons.

> >

> > The weapons are half of your skills. They are often tied to the mechanics.

> >

>

> They honestly are not. Probably just holosmith and it was a terrible decision since it should have just been a espec mechanic that applied to all weapons.

>

 

They honestly are.

They are half your skills.

And they are tied to the elite much more often.

Weaver: sword weapons are more optimilised for the mechanic, specially the mixed skill 3

Spellbreaker: lots of synergy between the mechanism and the weapon skills.

Deadeye: Lots of synergy between he mechanism and the weapon skill.

Renegade: weapon skills and elite are very much bound.

Firebrand: I’ll be honest, when I could have kept my bow and this elite, I would have stocked to guardian as my main, but it likely would be too op

 

I know there are classes and specializations that follow your reasoning. I left some classes out on a purpose. But I also think your knowledge of all classes is lacking and looking at them all it is a bad idea, unless you want more one size fixes all. I prefer class diversity and if this means some of this effect, I’m fine for the bigger picture.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > For the life of the game it would probably be best if elite specs only contained skills and mechanics. Not weapons.

> > >

> > > The weapons are half of your skills. They are often tied to the mechanics.

> > >

> >

> > They honestly are not. Probably just holosmith and it was a terrible decision since it should have just been a espec mechanic that applied to all weapons.

> >

>

> They honestly are.

> They are half your skills.

> And they are tied to the elite much more often.

> Weaver: sword weapons are more optimilised for the mechanic, specially the mixed skill 3

> Spellbreaker: lots of synergy between the mechanism and the weapon skills.

> Deadeye: Lots of synergy between he mechanism and the weapon skill.

> Renegade: weapon skills and elite are very much bound.

> Firebrand: I’ll be honest, when I could have kept my bow and this elite, I would have stocked to guardian as my main, but it likely would be too op

>

> I know there are classes and specializations that follow your reasoning. I left some classes out on a purpose. But I also think your knowledge of all classes is lacking and looking at them all it is a bad idea, unless you want more one size fixes all. I prefer class diversity and if this means some of this effect, I’m fine for the bigger picture.

 

Yeah, gonna have to take back what I said about that for spellbreaker. Its a well designed class, weapons, skills and traits.

Weaver, its just a well around designed class that works with anything surprisingly.

Deadeye, ehhh not so sure about that aside from it only giving decent damage from skill Dj on high malice.

Renegade itself confuses the absolute hell out of me, but thats just rev in general.

 

My knowledge of classes isnt really lacking, aside from some of the newer Especs that came in PoF due to me taking a long break when the game became bland and boring with build choices back in HoT.

[flog.3485]

@"iKeostuKen.2738"

 

2) My mirage example still holds true nevertheless. There is no point in giving a spec that can already attack while evading another sustain option in the form of a potential double block coupled with a potential double stun option. I mean sword ambush already gives that double stun option. That is way too much imo.

3) Once again, my point still stands. I don't deny that, as time goes by, the previously purchased expansions will become less valuable and thus will cost less money for new players. They could give away HoT free with the purchase of the next expansion and I would not mind. However I think it is important to bear in mind that core is free and that all the added content forwards are tied to a purchase (or not when it comes to LS episodes of course), the amount of money spent is irrelevant however imo.