Why min-maxing DPS is wasting time!

[Vino.7923]

To have a Top DPS one must be willing to test it on a dummy. But what about when you need to move and run, a Top DPS in real life scenario means you will put yourself most of the time in danger leading to a wipe especially when you have sacrificed durability. On a paper you did more damage, BUT on a successful run, because people compare DPS when the run is finished. But how many of the tries did they fail before the finish line. People blindly follow numbers like sheep's, but 90% of the time they don't use them practically. The key must be Overall Time not DPS. You can kill the boss with Bigger DPS faster but it may cost you 5 or 7 tries. As a lower DPS more steady it may take you 3 or 5 tries. So in general having a bigger DPS when it cost you more Overall time is pointless and only sheep's are willing to follow this path.

[Xcorpdog.2840]

Before I dig into this, your post comes off as low effort when you can't even be bothered to click on the underlined words that tell you there may be a typo.

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> To have a Top DPS one must be willing to test it on a dummy. But what about when you need to move and run, a Top DPS in rea life scenario means you will put yourself most of the time in danger leading to a wipe especialy when you have sacrificed durability.

While it's true that people run more offensive gear, and this in turns make them glassier, it's not the whole picture.

Toughness doesn't diminish the amount of damage that you take in PvE unless you stack massive amounts of it, which is counter productive to doing damage.

Similarly with vitality, you don't gain much from it unless it takes you over a hit threshold. Or in other words the point where it lets you live through an attack by 1 hp, which is just as good as living through it by 4k hp. So again it's not that good of a stat in a PvE setting.

 

As well all players generally should want to be bunched up anyways for support, it's that, and the fact that melee weapons are generally rewarded with higher damage outputs than their ranged counter parts. The way the game is designed, you're rewarded with better buffs and better damage for being in close, which of course means you have to deal with more boss skills usually. This in many people's opinions is preferable to people running around like chickens seemingly playing their own game. You can say that you prefer another way, which is fine, but it doesn't change how the game is structured in PvE.

 

>On a paprer you did more Dmg BUT on a succesfull run, because people compare DPS when the run is finished. But how many of the tries did they fail befor the finish line. People blindly follow numbers like sheep, but 90% of the time they dont use them practicaly. The key must be Overal Time not DPS. You can kill the boss with Bigger DPS faster but it may cost you 5 or 7 tries. As a lower DPS more steady it may take you 3 or 5 tries. So in general having a bigger dps when it cost you more Overal time is pointless and only sheeps are willing to follow this path.

 

Considering people play this game for fun, they have deemed getting a fast kill after a few tries is preferable to getting a slow kill in one shot. Not everyone likes wiping for a fast kill though, which is where people throw up these requirements, including a dps meter, to try and weed out people who don't want to put in as much effort but still want to come along.

 

Oh, and if you want to have an argument taken seriously, avoid name calling a large group of people, they tend it ignore your ideas when you do that.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Not really. The thing about the meta builds is that they aren't nearly as glassy and failure-prone as you think. In fact, they are a combination of some of the most effective skills and tactics possible. They fail less than RNG builds, roleplay builds, and imported PVP builds. Once you have the most effective tactics down, adjusting your build to deal with particulars is a piece of cake. If somebody is failing with a meta build due to a lack of skill or wherewithal, changing to non meta builds isn't going to improve their performance.

 

The meta builds aren't just the fastest. They're the best.

[infrequentia.3465]

the point of this is?

 

toughness is useless as a dps slot wich is what you take when doing dps

vit while handy doesn't make you tankier

 

killing faster means having to endure less hits, less heals needed

 

and you should always learn your class dps meter show where you can improve . higher dps ( top dps) just means you masterd your class while having low dps means you need to learn alot .

[TexZero.7910]

We know buddy.

We all know the difference between theoretical max and practical max. It's more than just a DPS meter though so, you should probably use it before you bash against it so you're fully informed and not just attacking a crowd to be hip.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

All things being equal:

* A durability-focused build can survive more hits, allowing them to last longer in an extended battle

* A DPS-focused build can defeat opponents more quickly, which means that battles don't extend for as long.

 

But all things aren't equal. Because many other things also matter: the player's knowledge of their prof|build's strengths & weaknesses, their knowledge of foe mechanics, their knowledge of what other prof|builds can bring to the party, and their ability to make use of that during combat.

 

At a certain level of skill, a player can mitigate or even entirely avoid most damage. At that point, a high-durability build is far, far worse than a high-DPS build: the longer the fight lasts, the more damage the player has to mitigate or avoid, and the more opportunity for small mistakes to add up. Better for the battle to end quickly.

 

Mind you, some builds are 'meta' because they benchmark high, and actual in-game performance is often low. As it turns out, there are plenty of alternative builds that are 1-15% less efficient "in the lab" that do better damage than 'meta' in combat scenarios. But (a) they are still DPS builds and (b) that's a social problem, with our community giving too much weight to one group's theorycrafting (it's not a problem with the idea of high-DPS, nor even with specific builds).

 

tl;dr meta builds are meta for a good reason: they are incredibly effective, in the right hands.

[Khisanth.2948]

Uh ... what you described is exactly why a DPS meter is useful.

 

It's a great way to show whether or not you are capable of handling that build.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

Do you know what else the dps meter records besides dps? Damage taken, failed boss mechanics, number of downstates, boon uptime and some other stuff. No matter if you succeed or fail at a boss, taking a closer look at the battle statistics helps at finding your own faults and becoming a better player.

 

Post-raid discussions would have little to no substance without some logs. "Hey, when the boss did x, everyone's dps dropped as they evaded, but your dps remained constant / increased. What did you do?" or "You were hit x times by mechanic y, you should concentrate on learning the tells even if it means slacking in your rotation." are things that would be hard to find out without the right tool.

[Critical Lag.9075]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> To have a Top DPS one must be willing to test it on a dummy.

Dummy benchmark is only to see how good you are with your rotation, of course it's a bit different from real life scenario and nobody expects you to pull dummy dps on all bosses ( there are some exceptions like MO).

 

> But what about when you need to move and run, a Top DPS in rea life scenario means you will put yourself most of the time in danger leading to a wipe especialy when you have sacrificed durability.

??? Everyone has access to dodge, you can avoid most damage coming your way and rely on your supports and healers to take care of the rest, it's group content after all.

 

> On a paprer you did more Dmg BUT on a succesfull run, because people compare DPS when the run is finished. But how many of the tries did they fail befor the finish line. People blindly follow numbers like sheep, but 90% of the time they dont use them practicaly. The key must be Overal Time not DPS. You can kill the boss with Bigger DPS faster but it may cost you 5 or 7 tries. As a lower DPS more steady it may take you 3 or 5 tries. So in general having a bigger dps when it cost you more Overal time is pointless and only sheeps are willing to follow this path.

 

When you have competent group, it will NOT take MORE tries with more dps, because more dps makes most of the fights in this game way easier, you can even skip some mechanics. The easiest examples are all 3 bosses in 99CM fractal, the more dps you have the easier every encounter is, as you can push phases way faster and have more breathing room, whilst slow dps means you will have way more stuff and attacks to deal with, which often will cover whole area at some point. Another example can be KC, the more dps you have the less orbs you have to push and you won't have to repeat that step at all before you reach 66 and 33%, which makes it less prone to something going wrong.

 

I pug raid weekly and do fractal CMs every day and I have yet to witness situation where more DPS makes "Overal Time" longer.

 

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

It really doesn't work the way you think it does. More damage makes group content easier, not harder.

[Algreg.3629]

Wrong. As GW2 is not really, hm, "facetankcentric", durability makes less of a difference than you think. Active defenses are way more relevant in PvE. And being able to get your dps rotations going in a controlled environment like dummy test is only the first step. Of cause you will have to adapt to the actual fights. But people who fail even at the test dummy will have a harder time being effective in the real deal than those at least familiar with their own build.

[eldrjth.7384]

I think dps meters should be available/supported by ANET **and** third party dps meters intentionally broken so that no-one can gather the information if anet doesnt specifically support it. They offer too great an advantage to those who use it in terms of providing feedback/metric for improvement, while also introducing negativity in party play when players complain about party members not doing enough dps. If all players have access to this tool through anet: they wouldnt have to fear maliciously/unsupported software being installed on the computer; being banned for violating ToC (lol); being removed from group for doing low DPS; and generally improving daily runs and offering a fresh view in party play. Players can argue that since combat log is available, one could just read it to calculate what a dps meter is showing anyway... BUT obviously to do it manually would be too tedious a task for anyone actually playing the game who also has to have the party chat tab on at all times.

 

I think since theres demand for monitoring certain aspects of the game it would be better for anet to incorporate that functionality in game. In fact it would also point out if a players offer more than _just_ doing dps if other players can see heals/rezzes boons etc if they doing their specified role.

[Brother.1504]

I’m all for dps meters like recount as a tool to optimize performance but Arc dps is too limited and seems inaccurate in dynamic situations. With anets we reserve the right to ban any third party program user, Arc isn’t worth my time.

[Dreadshow.9320]

What's DPS?

 

Meh who cares anyone want to do a raid?

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"infrequentia.3465" said:

> the point of this is?

>

> toughness is useless as a dps slot wich is what you take when doing dps

> vit while handy doesn't make you tankier

>

> killing faster means having to endure less hits, less heals needed

>

> and you should always learn your class dps meter show where you can improve . higher dps ( top dps) just means you masterd your class while having low dps means you need to learn alot .

 

I think the show a flaw in the game design. Why not fix it?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > @"infrequentia.3465" said:

> > the point of this is?

> >

> > toughness is useless as a dps slot wich is what you take when doing dps

> > vit while handy doesn't make you tankier

> >

> > killing faster means having to endure less hits, less heals needed

> >

> > and you should always learn your class dps meter show where you can improve . higher dps ( top dps) just means you masterd your class while having low dps means you need to learn alot .

>

> I think the show a flaw in the game design. Why not fix it?

 

What is the flaw? The game rewards those who become skilled at its mechanics by making the fights faster.

[Cyninja.2954]

Mistakes in your assumption TC:

 

1. believing defensive stats make a huge difference in survivability to actually matter. A big fraction of raid and fractal boss attacks completely ignore stats and simply kill you

2. believing that in a game which is designed around active mitigation, passive mitigation is required

3. believing that the skill ceiling is to high to reach for good play to avoide relevant damage without relying om passive defensive stats. It is only if you arr unwilling to spend a minimum amount of time on practice

4. not taking synergies in group compositions into account. There is a reason why elementalists for example can free cast way easier without needing to move if provoded quiclness, alacrity, aegis, stability and protection. Who would have thought

5. reducing the time for the group to being exlosed to a bosses attacks will cut down the errors drastically. There is way less room for error if your fight with the boss takes 30% less time

6. Not realizing that meta damage builds are designed with boss patterns in mind. The reason most builds remain similar is BECAUSE you can focus on pure damage for the damage builds while your support builds do all the relevant other work. That's why you see more variation and build changes for the support builds

 

All in all, you come along as talking about content you yourself have none or very limited experience in. Instead of calling other people sheep, you might want to actually gain some first hand experience and then draw conclusions.

[Cyninja.2954]

double post forum fun

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> Uh ... what you described is exactly why a DPS meter is useful.

>

> It's a great way to show whether or not you are capable of handling that build.

 

hah nope, you can find meta builds on the web very easily.

just because you have a theoretical DPS build doesn't mean you know how to use it, i don't use a meta build yet survive allot more encounters then most because i am skilled enough to use the build properly.

[zealex.9410]

Or you can get good and not die while topping the meters.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Or you can get good and not die while topping the meters.

 

The solution to this thread. In fractals (not pugging raids), I have seen so many people who must have played some defensive lol build, since they did a lot less damage then a proper build just autoattacking, and still went down over and over again. The most annoying thing about those wannabe tanky people: not only do they make fights last longer, they also make them more difficult for people who play properly. So the solution is not going more tanky, it's three letters: l2p.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > Uh ... what you described is exactly why a DPS meter is useful.

> >

> > It's a great way to show whether or not you are capable of handling that build.

>

> hah nope, you can find meta builds on the web very easily.

> just because you have a theoretical DPS build doesn't mean you know how to use it, i don't use a meta build yet survive allot more encounters then most because i am skilled enough to use the build properly.

 

Actually a DPS meter is exactly useful for comparison.

 

It will allow to compare how you on your unique build will perform versus someone who runs a meta build. If the person runs who runs the meta build performs poorly, he is worse at playing that build (which might have a higher skill ceiling than yours or not).

 

If the person running the meta build outperforms you, it means they have mastered their meta build far enough to perform better than you on your unique build. Again, build difficulty can factor in but the net result will be displayed by the DPS meter.

 

Notice please that DPS meters are a tool for comparison. The fact that people can or can not play a meta build has no bearing on the usefulness of a DPS meter.

 

What you are complaining about is people who try to copy an optimized build while lacking the skill to do so. That is a completely separate issue from DPS meters or meta builds. I guarantee you, a person who is capable to run his class in encounters with the meta build will outperform you 90% of the time (giving you the 10% because who knows, maybe your build is actually better).

[CptAurellian.9537]

There is very little danger in melee when playing instanced group content. Oh, and you apparently don't get the primary role of support in this game: it's providing offensive buffs, not heals or other defense.

[Vino.7923]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> There is very little danger in melee when playing instanced group content. Oh, and you apparently don't get the primary role of support in this game: it's providing offensive buffs, not heals or other defense.

 

False and False

 

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > There is very little danger in melee when playing instanced group content. Oh, and you apparently don't get the primary role of support in this game: it's providing offensive buffs, not heals or other defense.

>

> False and False

>

 

How is it false? From what ive experienced both things are absolutely true. Maybe 'very little danger' is an exaggeration but there isn't much danger if u are stacked correctly.