Dashingsteel.3410 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I think your suggestion would lead to many thousands of players not being able to get through the story. This would mean that those that only do the first instance of a new episode to get to the new living story map would be effectively blocked from the new map. I don't think this would be a smart business move for Anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > You do realize that by doing this people will rage on reddit and force anet to nerf the kitten out of it. Doesnt that happen already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"aspirine.5839" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > I agree, i haven't been able to take Mordremoth, Balthazar, let even Joko, seriously, because no matter how evil they are, you can just endlessly engage them until you're in your underwear and slowly nibble away their lives. > > > > I mean, compare that to GW1, you couldn't die, at least, not as a team. And sometimes you had objectives like "keep this person alive". In that case you can let your dedicee just die, clear a path, and revive them (endlessly) where necessary. > > > > The game is holding you by the hand so strongly, it's the literal exact opposite of dark souls. > > Instead of great effort to win, it takes almost a very great effort to fulfil a losing/failing condition > > wut? as far as I remember you could die infinite amount of times in GW1 and still not fail? > > I do not mind a challenge, but I can also imagine when I would rage quit if I had to to the whole instance just before balthazar again just because you don't know one of the mechanics yet. So far if i die in gw1 and the healer cant ress me is game over not for the boss fight alone but the entire instance. Also thats not what im suggesting. Im saying put a checkpoint right before the fights (lets say in the previous room) granded u reach the boss and reset the boss' hp if you die.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.5839 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said: > I think your suggestion would lead to many thousands of players not being able to get through the story. This would mean that those that only do the first instance of a new episode to get to the new living story map would be effectively blocked from the new map. I don't think this would be a smart business move for Anet. That could easily be solved by adding hard mode option to the story. If you die there you have to do it over again. :/ With choice you eliminate that outcry I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Restart node/mote/thing/trigger. Definitely. But OP's reason for it is not my own. Rather, there are entirely too many "oops too bad" achievements being written into these story scenarios. They're super easy to fail and super painful to start over. We've been asking for this since probably Season 2, when at the time we were given the answer "too hard". I seriously think that if ANet were taking this sincerely, they would've worked out how to do resets by now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Never had to do anything like that so to me any time spent working on that by the devs would be a literal waste of time. It certainly wouldn't make me appreciate any of the fights any more because a poorly designed is a poorly designed fight regardless of whether or not it resets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"aspirine.5839" said: > > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > I agree, i haven't been able to take Mordremoth, Balthazar, let even Joko, seriously, because no matter how evil they are, you can just endlessly engage them until you're in your underwear and slowly nibble away their lives. > > > > > > I mean, compare that to GW1, you couldn't die, at least, not as a team. And sometimes you had objectives like "keep this person alive". In that case you can let your dedicee just die, clear a path, and revive them (endlessly) where necessary. > > > > > > The game is holding you by the hand so strongly, it's the literal exact opposite of dark souls. > > > Instead of great effort to win, it takes almost a very great effort to fulfil a losing/failing condition > > > > wut? as far as I remember you could die infinite amount of times in GW1 and still not fail? > > > > I do not mind a challenge, but I can also imagine when I would rage quit if I had to to the whole instance just before balthazar again just because you don't know one of the mechanics yet. > > So far if i die in gw1 and the healer cant ress me is game over not for the boss fight alone but the entire instance. > > Also thats not what im suggesting. Im saying put a checkpoint right before the fights (lets say in the previous room) granded u reach the boss and reset the boss' hp if you die.. GW1 has ress shrines ... Hard mode will kick at 60% or 40% death penalty Places like UW and FoW has other kick conditions like having one of Grenth's reapers die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healix.5819 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 The simple option is showing a death screen and giving you the option to either continue on easy mode or accept defeat, which would either reset the boss or completely kick you out. Completing the instance without dying and without another player joining would have an achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"aspirine.5839" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > I agree, i haven't been able to take Mordremoth, Balthazar, let even Joko, seriously, because no matter how evil they are, you can just endlessly engage them until you're in your underwear and slowly nibble away their lives. > > > > I mean, compare that to GW1, you couldn't die, at least, not as a team. And sometimes you had objectives like "keep this person alive". In that case you can let your dedicee just die, clear a path, and revive them (endlessly) where necessary. > > > > The game is holding you by the hand so strongly, it's the literal exact opposite of dark souls. > > Instead of great effort to win, it takes almost a very great effort to fulfil a losing/failing condition > > wut? as far as I remember you could die infinite amount of times in GW1 and still not fail? > > I do not mind a challenge, but I can also imagine when I would rage quit if I had to to the whole instance just before balthazar again just because you don't know one of the mechanics yet. Sorry, should have been more specific in gw1, in open world you can die, and you will respawn with a punishment buff. or in story instances, you will be kicked, because you 'died' and the story can't end with the hero dying. In other cases, like hard mode, dying isn't a permanent game over, but the punishment is severe. and since bosses heal back after you disengage, you can't keep running back once you've hit -60%. So all in all, in gw1, there was a _real_ game over function there were also quests that could fail, not just story instances. I remember this quest where I had to escort a merchant, and if he died, not me, he died. there was no resurrection, there was just teleporting back to the first map, and run back to the starting location Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Godrik.5841 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > > You do realize that by doing this people will rage on reddit and force anet to nerf the kitten out of it. > > Doesnt that happen already? Yes, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etria.3642 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I admit I am one of those people. I CANNOT manage to figure out how to kill bosses before they kill me numerous times and absolutely WOULD NOT bother to do story if I had to suffer through it AGAIN. After I get the good ole respawn message I am SO GRATEFUL I don't have to do the whole entire thing over. Just did the last scene of killing Mordremoth again today and even with bringing along a druid healer to help me(because I really am that bad) we still died twice. I really don't want to have to bring along a whole fractal party just to keep my poor self alive. Maybe one of these days I'll play something less squishy than my weaver but she seems to get one shot a LOT in story when my fading reflexes just aren't enough to get her out of the circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 There was a pretty large uproar about eater of souls when pof came out, end result was that it was nerfed to the ground and lower, I don't even recall it being that difficult on release =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > There was a pretty large uproar about eater of souls when pof came out, end result was that it was nerfed to the ground and lower, I don't even recall it being that difficult on release =/ It depended on your class honestly. I found it stupid easy on my ranger at the time, I had a few issues with my ele(L2P issue) but im still concerned about it on my thief even after the nerf because i hate having to cheese fights if they dont work with whatever(usually power) build im running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanner Blackfeather.6509 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > I agree, but I also understand that maybe 60% of players wouldn't be able to clear the instances lmao > > > > > > Its not that diff if you think about it. In the existing system if you are bad and die multiple times your gear break and you get penalty iirc to your stats makimg the fight slower and you squishier. > > > > Point of information: damaged gear does not lose any of its defense or attribute bonuses. Broken gear does. However, gear does not break until all of one's armor and back piece are damaged. So, one loses stats only on the eighth and subsequent defeats. > > > > Opinion: It seems more likely that people would fail to clear the story instance because of inability to whittle a boss down from full health no matter how many times they try than that they would eventually fail due to losing stats. How likely are people in today's gaming culture to not rage quit after seven defeats? > > > > Alot of ppl already rq in the current fight and you can see it in forum threads. Theres the arguement about which would cause more rage but we having seen any proper story instanced be done with a checkpoint and an anvil to ix your gear. > > > Opinion: While harder instanced content is not aimed at all players, story content is. Given the latter, importing instance "rules" meant for harder content risks alienating less skilled players while offering little benefit to players who like harder instanced content. After all, the mainstays of such content are: group composition; actual challenge; and repetitive play fueled by rewards. > > True. Its just my opinion that i believe this wouldnt increase the difficulty for the ppl that would already struggle in the existing format while also making the fight more well regarded due to no major cheese from death rushing. > > Oh well. Just how could anything that resets the fight on death *avoid* making the fight harder for anyone who currently have to resort to death-rushing it? Current way: The boss kills me, but I wittle it down over time, finally defeating it. Your suggestion: The boss kills me, and the fight resets, wiping away all my progress every time - I fail to defeat the boss. How is that *not* "increased difficulty"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilkemia.8507 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Really? They already did that for dungeons and fractals which made it worse way back when, and now you want it for story content too? How about no. If you feel you should have to restart, feel free to quit the instance and restart by yourself, rather than suggesting such a change be forced on the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die. > > > > > > Nothing stops you from watching a youtube playthrough of the fight either. > > > > > > And theres stuff that do. Like, the weird checkpoints or lack thereof in alot of the fights. > > > > My point is that I don’t see the point of your complaint. It only affects you and you can artificially punish yourself if you feel like it. There’s no need to impose your will on other players. > > I dont look to make the fight harder in a way nor to make it in any way more punishing. I believe it would make for better boss fights and it would make the experience less annoying if the fights reset along with your gear and cds after a wipe. It might, but if you understand the target market for this game, you would know why that's not a desirable option. The bottomline is that you can get what you want with the game mechanics for no addition work on Anet's part and no impact on the players that benefit from the current approach to storylines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"aspirine.5839" said: > > > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > > I agree, i haven't been able to take Mordremoth, Balthazar, let even Joko, seriously, because no matter how evil they are, you can just endlessly engage them until you're in your underwear and slowly nibble away their lives. > > > > > > > > I mean, compare that to GW1, you couldn't die, at least, not as a team. And sometimes you had objectives like "keep this person alive". In that case you can let your dedicee just die, clear a path, and revive them (endlessly) where necessary. > > > > > > > > The game is holding you by the hand so strongly, it's the literal exact opposite of dark souls. > > > > Instead of great effort to win, it takes almost a very great effort to fulfil a losing/failing condition > > > > > > wut? as far as I remember you could die infinite amount of times in GW1 and still not fail? > > > > > > I do not mind a challenge, but I can also imagine when I would rage quit if I had to to the whole instance just before balthazar again just because you don't know one of the mechanics yet. > > > > So far if i die in gw1 and the healer cant ress me is game over not for the boss fight alone but the entire instance. > > > > Also thats not what im suggesting. Im saying put a checkpoint right before the fights (lets say in the previous room) granded u reach the boss and reset the boss' hp if you die.. > > GW1 has ress shrines ... > > Hard mode will kick at 60% or 40% death penalty > > Places like UW and FoW has other kick conditions like having one of Grenth's reapers die. Normal maps and missions are quite different. Im talking about lw story so ofc im gonna refer to the equivalent of gw1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Etria.3642" said: > I admit I am one of those people. I CANNOT manage to figure out how to kill bosses before they kill me numerous times and absolutely WOULD NOT bother to do story if I had to suffer through it AGAIN. > > After I get the good ole respawn message I am SO GRATEFUL I don't have to do the whole entire thing over. Just did the last scene of killing Mordremoth again today and even with bringing along a druid healer to help me(because I really am that bad) we still died twice. > > I really don't want to have to bring along a whole fractal party just to keep my poor self alive. Maybe one of these days I'll play something less squishy than my weaver but she seems to get one shot a LOT in story when my fading reflexes just aren't enough to get her out of the circles. > > Play around with diff gwar sets or builds. Also im not suggesting to do it like hearts and minds. That reset the whole instamce i suggest moving you to a checkpoint right before the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > There was a pretty large uproar about eater of souls when pof came out, end result was that it was nerfed to the ground and lower, I don't even recall it being that difficult on release =/ > > It depended on your class honestly. > I found it stupid easy on my ranger at the time, I had a few issues with my ele(L2P issue) but im still concerned about it on my thief even after the nerf because i hate having to cheese fights if they dont work with whatever(usually power) build im running. Cant a dd spam evades to avoid his major attacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > I agree, but I also understand that maybe 60% of players wouldn't be able to clear the instances lmao > > > > > > > > Its not that diff if you think about it. In the existing system if you are bad and die multiple times your gear break and you get penalty iirc to your stats makimg the fight slower and you squishier. > > > > > > Point of information: damaged gear does not lose any of its defense or attribute bonuses. Broken gear does. However, gear does not break until all of one's armor and back piece are damaged. So, one loses stats only on the eighth and subsequent defeats. > > > > > > Opinion: It seems more likely that people would fail to clear the story instance because of inability to whittle a boss down from full health no matter how many times they try than that they would eventually fail due to losing stats. How likely are people in today's gaming culture to not rage quit after seven defeats? > > > > > > > Alot of ppl already rq in the current fight and you can see it in forum threads. Theres the arguement about which would cause more rage but we having seen any proper story instanced be done with a checkpoint and an anvil to ix your gear. > > > > > Opinion: While harder instanced content is not aimed at all players, story content is. Given the latter, importing instance "rules" meant for harder content risks alienating less skilled players while offering little benefit to players who like harder instanced content. After all, the mainstays of such content are: group composition; actual challenge; and repetitive play fueled by rewards. > > > > True. Its just my opinion that i believe this wouldnt increase the difficulty for the ppl that would already struggle in the existing format while also making the fight more well regarded due to no major cheese from death rushing. > > > > Oh well. > > Just how could anything that resets the fight on death *avoid* making the fight harder for anyone who currently have to resort to death-rushing it? > > Current way: The boss kills me, but I wittle it down over time, finally defeating it. > Your suggestion: The boss kills me, and the fight resets, wiping away all my progress every time - I fail to defeat the boss. > How is that *not* "increased difficulty"? Your cds and gear are reset. In the existing system if you die multiple times you will start recieving hefty stat penalties makimg the fight even harder. Basically the boss facerolls against you but the hp by that time would also be bellow 30% hopefully so ppl keep at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die. > > > > > > > > Nothing stops you from watching a youtube playthrough of the fight either. > > > > > > > > And theres stuff that do. Like, the weird checkpoints or lack thereof in alot of the fights. > > > > > > My point is that I don’t see the point of your complaint. It only affects you and you can artificially punish yourself if you feel like it. There’s no need to impose your will on other players. > > > > I dont look to make the fight harder in a way nor to make it in any way more punishing. I believe it would make for better boss fights and it would make the experience less annoying if the fights reset along with your gear and cds after a wipe. > > It might, but if you understand the target market for this game, you would know why that's not a desirable option. > > The bottomline is that you can get what you want with the game mechanics for no addition work on Anet's part and no impact on the players that benefit from the current approach to storylines. Not forcing anet to make this change just expressing my disenjoyment with the way fights currently work. They've both had 2 diff modes for fights in the past as well as the base missions being tougher in gw1 so ik they are familiar with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etria.3642 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I'm not sure you realize. I don't survive to nearly kill the boss so a second try would do it. If alone I die before 75-80%. If it reset each and every time I died I would NEVER kill the boss. I don't feel I should be forced to switch my build to do a STORY instance for heavens sake. Nor should I require an entire team. It isn't a dungeon. It isn't a raid or fractal. It's STORY. Incidentally I perish far more often in story instances than the other content in general. So please. Leave the challenge for content that is supposed to present a challenge. In fact. If you want a challenge change YOUR build. Take off some armor. Let us poor folk complete it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irokou.3215 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I think an interesting solution to this would be to have a normal version of the story and a challenge mode of the story. You would be able to play through the story as normal, or opt to play though the challenge variant, with the same story dialogue, just stronger monsters and altered encounters/death penalty and achievements. Personally I think this game would benefit from having more options with regards to the difficulty of solo play. Another game I play, elder scrolls online, has the maelstrom arena, which is a solo challenge mode/gauntlet essentially. Let both the hardcore and casual soloists have their own enjoyment, I say. As an aside, yet another mmo (that I no longer play), blade and soul, had a solo challenge tower as content. While it has nothing to do with the presentation of the story, I think it would be interesting to see gw2 make an avenue of content designed as a solo trial/challenge of sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die. > > Nothing stops you from watching a youtube playthrough of the fight either. > > And theres stuff that do. Like, the weird checkpoints or lack thereof in alot of the fights. Yes real life is restricting me, family, job, kids, I don't want to do work to be entertained by a game. You can if you want but don't limit others enjoyment of the game because you have control on how you want to approach the game and don't force your approach on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 At this point, whenever someone talks about the story content, they say it is story so it is supposed to be easy. I'm curious, have ANet ever stated that? I can't remember that they did, but I haven't really followed it that closely. I understand that people take it for given that story content is supposed to be easy/soloable, but it doesn't really have to be (FF14 for example forces you through almost every single dungeon as part of story). But isn't that just basing things on how it's been in "every other game"? Considering how ANet have tried to change several things to the MMO formula, why not also Story as "challenging content" ? If ANet had marked all story content as [Group Content], how would that have impacted the community ? (Obligatory pause for people to take a deep breath and relax before flaming me off the forums) --- While people talk about a difficulty setting/slider/option, and I in theory agree with that idea, because I think every game benefits from difficulty sliders to some extent. But at the same time, there is probably a reason why ANet hasn't done this ? Why is that ? The most logical theory is that it might be too much work compared to what they consider worth it ? Has ANet ever given us a reason as to why not ? I mean technically they have already given us one humongous easy way to make every single story instance easier, by grouping up with others, perhaps ANet consider this enough of an easy mode that they don't see the value/point in adding more ?` --- This game, having the kind of action combat system it has, with builds (including gearing, stats, runes, sigils, traits, skills, weapons, synergies, rotations etc), where the effective difference between player skill can be so wast, will always create this difference of "to easy" vs "to hard". There is honestly no way to get around that. As such I'm curious, where do people think that ANet should set the bar ? We have absolutely no hard numbers on the number/percentage of players that finds the current iteration too hard/too easy/just enough, or who party or solo etc. Which begs the question, honestly, on what basis can any one of us make a judgement on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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