Why is "inattentive" farming allowed?

[crepuscular.9047]

there's 2 types of afk pet farming

1. afk, but interact with the game in person once in a while ← this is OK

2. totally afk, interaction with the game is replaced by software macros; like the ranger guy keep on spamming heal at Frostgorge near the champion troll killing Arctodus with pet on NA ← NOT OK

[Zander.9836]

@"crepuscular.9047" said:

> there's 2 types of afk pet farming

> 1. afk, but interact with the game in person once in a while ← this is OK

> 2. totally afk, interaction with the game is replaced by software macros; like the ranger guy keep on spamming heal at Frostgorge near the champion troll killing Arctodus with pet on NA ← NOT OK

 

Understood.

[Zander.9836]

> @"Sariel.2143" said:

> Boy here we go... Every once in a while someone gets jealous and needs to make a post.. again.. and again...

>

> Talking about unfair advantage..You can buy anything in this game for money. You gonna report rich people too? Or people with a lot more time to play to farm istan?

>

> I think people should be glad we dont have many bots farming. Cause this doesnt even put a dent in the economy.

 

No one mentioned about reporting players for having more time or money. It was a discussion to get a better understanding of why inattentive farming is permissible.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"iczek.9628" said:

> > @"CamoBadger.8531" said:

> > Who cares? It doesn't impact you.

>

> As I said it's an unfair advantage like AFK farming and botting.

 

Theres actually a place where mobs spawn is broken and keeps spwaning mobs every sec they start to get killed.

 

I actually use that spawn when i enter in a shard where that place isnt being used, to test some builds since its alot of mobs :dizzy:

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"iczek.9628" said:

> It was a discussion to get a better understanding of why inattentive farming is permissible.

It might help if you explained why it shouldn't be permissible.

 

****

ANet has noticed is that extremely active players are bothered when they see people who appear inactive reaping comparable rewards. Case in point: the OP (who is in good company with many other people, only some of them vocal about it). This is one reason why AFK farming is disallowed. It is also a reason for them to wonder about AFK farming.

 

What the OP missed in reading earlier posts on the topic is that ANet wants players who are engaged with the game. Research, evidence from running their own studio for 10 years, and the experience of other game companies shows that people who keep the game running while they pay _some_ attention will remain active and do other things with the community. In contrast, people who engage in AFK behaviors and e.g. buying illicit gold, the opposite happens; they become less engaged.

 

So from ANet's point of view, if you want to earn a tiny amount of extra wealth per hour while watching a movie, great. You'll be back for a festival or the next fractal or something in the future (on average; of course there will be exceptions). However, if you've got a macro farming for you, then you'll be less involved in the game and eventually leave.

 

It worries them that it's hard for active players to tell the difference between AFK and inattentive farming and they realize that it can look bad. But, in the long run, they'd rather have people maintaining that connection to the game, however tentative, because those people will do more in the future. (Most of them anyhow.)

 

tl;dr inattentive farming ends up being a net positive for the game, even if not every player sees it that way.

[zealex.9410]

Let ppl farm how they want if their classes allow it and they arent botting its ok.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"davedaverson.3751" said:

> Please stop opening topics like this every other day. Please use the search function.

 

The OP actually asked a different question from the usual. While they did complain about the practice, they also seem sincere in wanting to understand why ANet distinguishes between AFK and inattentive farming. It's not obvious from previous discussions (which got bogged down in rants) or the policy (which doesn't say).

[Palador.2170]

I would like to add that for some people, "inattentive play" is possibly the only way they can get in very much play time at all. If they have to devote some time to dealing with real life distractions, it's either be inattentive to the game or not get to play it at all.

 

Also, it's possible to be entirely focused on the screen, but not paying any attention to the combat. I'm sure we've all gotten caught up in map chat, or guild chat, or had a friend message us with a problem while we're playing. Sometimes, the combat just has to take a back seat to things like that, but is there any harm in a little easy farming while that's happening?

[TexZero.7910]

I dont pay attention 95% of the time in game

 

Does this mean i should be reported for innatentive farming, even if im actively playing ?

This should help you understand why your choice of words matters, and why "innatentive farming" isn't a thing that's actionable.

[Late For Tea.1846]

People who say it doesn't actually impact the game for others are wrong. I've seen multiple of these groups camp several Renow Hearts and clear the entire area of mobs. This makes is many times more difficult to complete these Renow Hearts for actually active players. The most noteable of these to me was "Tearing down the Ascalonian Wall" in Iron Marches, which has an overall small area in which mobs spawn, and becomes increasingly more time demanding when no mobs are present.

 

These players also withhold more active players from receiving loot, by killing the mobs, especially in Renow Heart areas.

[Scud.5067]

> @"DeanBB.4268" said:

> I don't know what you expect Anet to do about it. They are playing the game, placing turrets and moving their characters on occasion. No afk/inactivity routines will detect them. Even the fact that they responded shows they are not truly afk.

>

> If you ever come across a character you believe is afk, just report it (or ignore it if you can't be bothered to report) and move on. It's Anet's job to sort that stuff out.

 

Pets/turrets de-spawn after 2 mins of not moving.

 

Job done - unless folks resort to automation, which is a no no.

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"CamoBadger.8531" said:

> Who cares? It doesn't impact you.

 

It absolutely impacts everyone. The economy will eventually suffer. Do you want a WoW economy? This is how you get a WoW economy.

[Maikimaik.1974]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"CamoBadger.8531" said:

> > Who cares? It doesn't impact you.

>

> It absolutely impacts everyone. The economy will eventually suffer. Do you want a WoW economy? This is how you get a WoW economy.

 

The rewards of inattentive farming are so insignificant, there is no way it could have any effect on the economy.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Maikimaik.1974" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"CamoBadger.8531" said:

> > > Who cares? It doesn't impact you.

> >

> > It absolutely impacts everyone. The economy will eventually suffer. Do you want a WoW economy? This is how you get a WoW economy.

>

> The rewards of inattentive farming are so insignificant, there is no way it could have any effect on the economy.

 

Which is why ANet won't really do anything about it.

[starlinvf.1358]

Theres also the larger social ramifications that wouldn't be tolerated in real life. The idea of a mechanical advantage has always been tentative, because we've largely been taught (and are arguably wired for) equating effort to reward. Generally no one has a problem when something increases the efficiency of effort, but most productive people have a problem when they see something that eliminates the effort that is grounding the value of production output.

 

The assumption is that anything that reaches a point of full automation should benefit "everyone". That was the goal of our industrial efforts- reduce labor requirements to free up our resources for other pursuits. But when that labor isn't free for everyone, or people have removed the labor component, but are getting significant output, thats where we start having a problem.

 

Its important to understand that modern society now operates on an economy of Attention, but most game reward systems are designed around an Economy of Effort. Both are technically part of the economy of Time, but the distinction stands out most heavily in entertainment sectors, where attention is still very much mutually exclusive. So when a player is reaping benefits without effort, thats already a problem (see Pay-to-win, or pay-to-bypass type models). But when they're not even "paying attention", thats not only counter-intuitive, its downright insulting. Why even be involved if you're not even going to care about what you're doing.... _whats the point of "not playing a game"_?

 

And thats what is really getting people's goats. Its an interactive medium where you're going out of your way to minimize that interaction. Its like putting a cell phone face up on table when you're out with your friends, or even on a date, so you can keep track of your social media feeds. Unless there is a very good reason to justify keeping tabs on it, you're signaling to everyone else that they aren't as important, or not nearly worth your attention, compared to typical updates on Twitter or Facebook. "You're not worth my time, but I have nothing better to do at the moment".

 

THAT is what people are really reacting to. A social Faux Pas in not one, but TWO realms of context. And to the people that brush this off as "mind your own business", thats like going into a public place, doing something that obviously attracts attention or looks suspicious, and telling people to "Sod off"....... thats a level of sketchiness of that couldn't be more obvious then Caper flick. And the more you examine it, the more social parallels it keeps drawing, along with the same kind of cause and effect its had in the real world. MMOs are a fundamentally "social game", even if those social interactions aren't always active and engaging. No one can simply "mind their own business", because you acting out of place just draws attention. Mix that with a level of paranoia created after realizing "not paying attention" to things out of place let a LOT of problems rise, and the notion quickly becomes "being visible makes it everyone's business". Even more so in games, where there is a limited number of things that are considered productive, and all of them governed by the intent of a higher authority.

[Drecien.4508]

To me there seems to be some areas added to the game that encourage some inattentive farming. As stated earlier in this post, the loot is totally not going to crash the economy or make someone rich. In the cases of people messing up how a heart goes, it has been addressed before with persons being moved by a dev to a few feet away to check the validity of the inattentive farmer.

 

Tl:Dr move along nothing to see here

[davedaverson.3751]

If they're actually making heart completion near-impossible, please report it. If it's not, leave it alone. You're not the police, that's Arenanet's job. Go farm a meta for 15 minutes to offset the 5 hours of inattentive farming these people are doing. I have more issue with people laying dead at a boss and getting credit.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"CamoBadger.8531" said:

> > Who cares? It doesn't impact you.

>

> It absolutely impacts everyone. The economy will eventually suffer. Do you want a WoW economy? This is how you get a WoW economy.

 

No, this isn't something we have to worry about.

 

The game has had inattentive farmers since launch. We have yet to have a WoW economy, because this particular method of acquiring loot is a footnote relative to what's obtained via active sources, because the economy is truly global (includes everyone playing in NA/EU), and because of other systems in place.

 

 

[Algreg.3629]

> @"iczek.9628" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > @"iczek.9628" said:

> > > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > Better than sitting afk in a town and doing nothing

> > >

> > > Then one shouldn't remain logged in to a game if they're unable to play.

> >

> > Why? Who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do?! If I'm unable to play I'm totally free to stay afk in a town or wherever I want!

>

> It's called logic.

 

please elaborate.

[Shikigami.4013]

I have been vocal in most of the afk-farming threads and didn't expect to come across a thread by someone who is even more strict about it than that :)

 

The only difference between the real afk-farming and the brought up labled "inattentive farming" of this thread is the amount of time someone removes his attention from the game. We know that ArenaNet was generous with the amount of time given people to reply, which makes perfect sense because there will always be situations where you need to leave your PC to do real life things. Be it a ringing doorbell, going into the kitchen to make food, going to the toilet or whatever you may want or need to do. It would be an unreasonable hassle to make people constantly log off for all of those things, so telling people they can not leave their game running when going away from the PC was obviously not an option that ArenaNet was deeming appropriate.

 

Logic dictates that if you cannot disallow people from "not paying attention" to the game because of leaving the PC and doing something else, you also cannot disallow people from "not paying attention" to the game because of NOT leaving the PC and doing something else. After all, how would ArenaNet ever determine if you are at your PC and not paying attention, or not at your PC and not paying attention.

 

So the variable that can be verified by ArenaNet is "How much time does a person need until he IS paying attention to the game again" and go from there.

 

The amount of time that you want to give people seems to be lower than what ArenaNet thinks should be given. Which is fine, everyone can have their opinion about how ArenaNet should run the game, but if you consider the amount of controversy that threads about the REAL afk-farming end up resulting in, I doubt that a thread like this makes much sense on the forum.

 

[Game of Bones.8975]

After hearing about AFK farming I tried it with my Reaper. I found a place where spawns were regular and I could survive left alone. What I found was the drops were really pitiful compared to what I could have earned by active gaming. I don't see how this is an issue in terms of the economy.

 

If ANET wanted to take an active stand, one of the easiest ways would be to reduce the time between character movement from an hour to 30 or 45 mins.

[Randulf.7614]

Since it isn't and wont affect the economy, I'm not sure I see the issue beyond "I don't like it"

[Shikigami.4013]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> After hearing about AFK farming I tried it with my Reaper. I found a place where spawns were regular and I could survive left alone. What I found was the drops were really pitiful compared to what I could have earned by active gaming. I don't see how this is an issue in terms of the economy.

>

> If ANET wanted to take an active stand, one of the easiest ways would be to reduce the time between character movement from an hour to 30 or 45 mins.

 

This leaves 2 possible conclusions:

 

a) You are smarter than them, noticing on first try that what they have been doing for weeks/months is not worth it

b) They are smarter than you by having figured out or just blatantly copied from other people how/where it is worth it

 

Also, afk-farming is not something you have to do INSTEAD of actively playing, but can do IN ADDITION to actively playing - in times where you don't want to or cannot actively play. So the comparison between what you get while playing actively and what you get from afk-farming is irrelevant.

 

It is just like if you had the possibility to earn money for doing nothing each night while sleeping. It does not become unattractive just because it is less money than what you earn during the day for your work because you would still get the money from your work, and the free nightly money in addition to that.

 

Last point: This has nothing to do with character movement. The logout time is reset each time you cast a spell or use a skill, you never need to move.

[reaVer.4056]

Hmm...

 

Ok, think for a second about what locations are afk farmable; they are usually fairly low level areas with very few strong enemies that in turn have really poor drops. You won't ever see a ranger or a necromancer standing in middle of a HoT pocket raptor squad expecting his/her minions to survive for the coming 8 hours unattended. So the expected amount of farm is going to end up being 1g at best over that timespan, granted the player has the required masteries to auto pickup loot(thus already completed the core game with another character) and does not fill his/her inventory in that time period. So the reality is going to be that the inventory will likely be filled after about 4 hours with blue items which implies less than 20 silver.

 

Next to that, what should be considered is that you NEVER see necros actually doing this, yet you do see rangers doing this. And having tried to play ranger myself I can imagine why they are doing it: playing ranger is really really REALLY boring. Especially when starting off it's terribly paced and then parking your character somewhere where the pet can attack enemies safely becomes really attractive. Thus it's not the currency they are necessarily after, but rather they are trying to level a character for special purposes. That in itself is not ever going to crash the economy. The question then becomes: does it give them an unfair advantage? Well... not really. They will be leveling while asleep, but the pace will be so low even snails can keep up, let alone someone who runs the events properly. So this has been much ado in this thread for no issue.

 

Now the inattentive part: how can players be asked to pay attention to the game when the game is literally in paused state for half the time? Even the more intense events in the HoT areas have a lot of dead time in them where nothing happens and players just sit there waiting. There should be no problem for these players paying attention elsewhere. The same extends to tools the character can use without requiring attention from the player, that is the point of those tools in the first place.

 

Rather than trying to forbid players for doing something, you should reward them for doing the opposite. Something that was already hinted at in my first paragraph, HoT areas are vastly more entertaining due to the inherent event activity, difficulty and doable travel distances. If they sped up the game in the other areas, for example Orr, players would be spending less time watching porn and more time playing the game. I tried running Malchor's Leap a few days ago and the area is filled with really slow escort events(with really incompetent NPCs) and just as slow protect and gather events. There literally is 1 kill event on that entire map, which is a group event no less. Needless to say, that map is nothing more than a travel map that players use to get to the city of Arah (because the area that comes after it has the same issue). And slower travel speeds of course means more time paying attention to that other thing than the game.

[Halan.8951]

..........