Ashen.2907 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. > > While this is true, the map simply continues the trend of poor rewards driving players out that we have seen first in Sandswept Isles. Sad! > > Anet have a REAL problem with rewards, in every single aspect of the game, then they even go and nerf the Kourna meta, one of the already least rewarding things to do in the game. There is something seriously bad with that design approach, because flavor doesn't keep people doing something ever. The Kourna meta was not even close to being one of the least rewarding things to do in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 That's something I noticed even the first week of the expanion. The maps were very empty, at least during the hours I played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. 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Blocki.4931 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > > > > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > > > > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. > > > > While this is true, the map simply continues the trend of poor rewards driving players out that we have seen first in Sandswept Isles. Sad! > > > > Anet have a REAL problem with rewards, in every single aspect of the game, then they even go and nerf the Kourna meta, one of the already least rewarding things to do in the game. There is something seriously bad with that design approach, because flavor doesn't keep people doing something ever. > > The Kourna meta was not even close to being one of the least rewarding things to do in game. 5 champion bags and 5 chests, incredible. Now without the champion bags but 7 chests. Amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > The problem is when the optimal farm far surpasses any other content in the game. > > > Then you get multiple 50 man zergs doing the same 4 events all day long for months or years. > > > This leaves all other zones devoid and obsolete. > > > How do you not get this? > > > > Far surpasses? Have you compared the rates for the different farms? Zones have been devoid of players whether there was an existing farm or not. > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > Failure to understand basic economics. More money = devaluation of that money. > > > > > > In fact, changing the locations of the farm would actually benefit other material items! > > > It would create a nice rotation of stock instead of people selling just Mithril ore, ancient logs, etc. > > > > Failure on your part. Gold isn’t generated if it involves selling drops on the TP. Some of it is actually removed from the game through TP fees. > > > > Benefit other material items by making them worth less? I guess that’s good news for those that need them but too bad for those that don’t. > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > The point is if everything had the same level of reward then every map/event would have equal reward. > > > The way to optimise it would be to follow the dailies. > > > It's that simple. > > > Would you not be happier to continue grinding away but every day is some different content in a different area instead of the same old repetitive set of event over and over and over again? > > > Me and Etheri are actually arguing a case that benefits people who want to grind and while doing so, you help out other players who still needs to do the old content. > > > > > > How is this so complicated to understand? :astonished: > > > > You do realize that content is pretty much the same regardless of the map? Doing the mindless farm on one map is not going to be that much different from doing it on another. > > > > Players are still going to gravitate toward which one is more efficient or where there happens to be the most players. You can have 8 different maps with Istan farms but they all won’t be full of players doing them. > > > > All of this assuming that the new farms even have anything to do with what players have complaining about on “inactive” maps. > > /sigh > The Dunning–Kruger effect is strong with you... > Jeez... The Dunning-Kruger effect is about people being very confident when they are blatantly ignorant on the matter or experts who know what they are talking about and therefore are also confident in what they're saying (most people forget that latter part). Assuming that you mean the first part, which is most likely, I find your comment rather lacking as it is. How is he very confident while blatantly ignorant? And why would you want to be that insulting over the comments he made to begin with? It's not only inaccurate but also undeserved. I would suggest not throwing such terms around unless you really know how and when to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. the point of farming is to get the most loot in the shortest amount of time from my understanding or am i mistaken, and at the moment no other farms really exist. the Kourna meta was nerfed and when i did the event yesterday i had a grand total of 5 players there, outside of meta event times the HoT maps are mostly empty, getting players for content on any of the PoF maps is a pain in the rear these days so i dont see farms going on there outside of the occasional bounty train but thats not that often either., Dry top and silver waste even dont seem to have many players on them. So what farms *do* exist outside of Istan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > the point of farming is to get the most loot in the shortest amount of time from my understanding or am i mistaken, and at the moment no other farms really exist. the Kourna meta was nerfed and when i did the event yesterday i had a grand total of 5 players there, outside of meta event times the HoT maps are mostly empty, getting players for content on any of the PoF maps is a pain in the rear these days so i dont see farms going on there outside of the occasional bounty train but thats not that often either., Dry top and silver waste even dont seem to have many players on them. So what farms *do* exist outside of Istan? Orr, dungeons, gathering nodes, SW, specific loot drops, etc. A farm is simply doing the same thing over again to obtain loot. Something doesn’t have to be optimal to be worth doing; especially not at the expense of doing something enjoyable. There are plenty of ways to make gold in this game as you’re pretty much rewarded for doing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > the point of farming is to get the most loot in the shortest amount of time from my understanding or am i mistaken, and at the moment no other farms really exist. the Kourna meta was nerfed and when i did the event yesterday i had a grand total of 5 players there, outside of meta event times the HoT maps are mostly empty, getting players for content on any of the PoF maps is a pain in the rear these days so i dont see farms going on there outside of the occasional bounty train but thats not that often either., Dry top and silver waste even dont seem to have many players on them. So what farms *do* exist outside of Istan? Auric Basin still has the best farm in the game for raw gold while Shining Baubles are the map rewards. Lake Doric is very active People love the illusion of getting something worthwhile in all those unidentified gear drops in Istan. Outside of ectos it is really weak unless you have a personal use for the crafting materials out of shipments. Because they cost 1g each the actual profit is rather low from them. But there is a great need for all those materials, so it will continue to be good. Gold differences in the end aren't that huge. Istan is overhyped, people tend to forget other farms because "Go to Istan" is the perpetuated answer to anybody needing gold. So this all comes down to personal choice! I haven't set foot in Istan for a few months and I have more gold than ever before, just farming Lake Doric. Gotta get some variety or else the annoying task of killing mobs over and over again becomes unbearable. Glad that choice exists. Sad it doesn't exist in base PoF or other LS 4 maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 PoF rewards should be higher, the meta are comparable or harder than HoT ones yet reward a lot less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I wonder how OP got access to Anet's map metrics to make this claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhalvia.5029 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said: > I wonder how OP got access to Anet's map metrics to make this claim. Ha. You're funny, just try to get groups or PoF content and see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Offair.2563" said: > > > > > What if anet concentrated their living story on pof existing maps instead of making unfinished ones like kourna. > > > > > > > > They did with LS1 and people were demanding new maps. > > > > > > > > Kourna is hardly “unfinished”. The map doesn’t have to be jam-packed with content. > > > > > > While this is true, the map simply continues the trend of poor rewards driving players out that we have seen first in Sandswept Isles. Sad! > > > > > > Anet have a REAL problem with rewards, in every single aspect of the game, then they even go and nerf the Kourna meta, one of the already least rewarding things to do in the game. There is something seriously bad with that design approach, because flavor doesn't keep people doing something ever. > > > > The Kourna meta was not even close to being one of the least rewarding things to do in game. > > 5 champion bags and 5 chests, incredible. Now without the champion bags but 7 chests. Amazing. This doesnt change the fact, fact, that the Kourna meta was not even close to being one of the least rewarding things to do in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I just feel sorry for any poor soul that needs that Serpents' Ire meta event in Domain of Vabbi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said: > > I wonder how OP got access to Anet's map metrics to make this claim. > > Ha. You're funny, Thank you. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Kourna: the problem is not the bad rewards. The problem is that it is very few things going on, every and each one of them taking a looooong time, with bad rewards. If something can be done decently quickly, people don't care much about bad rewards. But all and everything in Kourna takes ages. while getting nothing of it. Pretty much every LW3 map is better in that regard. Heck, walking around starter maps doing starter events is better than Kourna. Sure, the rewards are abysmal, but the stuff is over so quickly, who cares? A ton of crap an hour is still better than 3 tons of crap in 5 hours. In additional to that, if you want the banner or the beetle, you have to grind the map again and again and again and again. At the end people are burnt out and never want to see that map again. At least I felt that way. Got beetle, which was annoying, got the banner, which was horrific, will never go there again. The map is dead for me. Istan... Sandswept Isle, I can understand. In Sandswept at least the npc chatter is kind of cute... I got Wayfarer's Henge in DM, I got the Abbadon Backpack in Siren's. And both felt less grindy than Kourna. Both are maps I occasionally visit because they were fun. Bitterfrost, always worth a visit. Lake Doric? Oh yes, the leatherfarm.. and at least something is going on all the time. Kourna? No. Istan wasn't really fun either. But at least the weapon skins you can unlock made it worthwhile. All in all - I really don't like the PoF maps. They are gorgeous. I spent a lot of time exploring and that time was well spent. But the mobs and their aggro range are just so annoying. The npcs - usually I enjoy npc chatter, but on PoF maps, I just wish Balthi or Kralkatorik were successful and wipe that whiney, arrogant, stupid bunch from the face of Tyria. So, what to do? Play wvw, the loot is still abysmal, but thanks to pip chests and reward tracks beat Kourna or PoF maps in general, and wander around low level maps, because some of them (especially the Shiverpeaks) are so pretty. And you can walk them, without being constantly attacked by everything in visible range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 In my experience, I see about as many people while running around in PoF zones as I do in HoT zones. There were tons of complaints about HoT zones being empty back when HoT was the only expansion. The difference, I believe, is that it's hard to find taxis to more populated PoF zones than it was to find taxis to the HoT zones where people were/are doing the big chain events. That difference come down to rewards, as many others have stated. When I look at the chain of content going back to the beginning of HoT, what I see is that: + HoT featured four zone-wide meta events with rewards competitive with those from the Silverwastes. + Possibly due to backlash against HoT zones, Season 3 maps featured some big events, but mostly exploration, collections, etc. + The trend started in Season 3 continued in PoF zones. + Season 4 zones offer more in the way of meta events with better rewards. What I find interesting is that only once has ANet modified any of the above maps' content rewards. That was in the April, 2016, Hot revamp. It took, apparently, a lot of effort. One possible result was the delay of Season 3, which led to the 9-month content "drought," and likely significant revenue loss for ANet. So, I would not expect any significant reward changes to existing content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Xhalvia.5029" said: > Hi, > As the title suggests: Path of Fire maps are quite empty. There is a festival going on. Maps always lose population during festivals/holiday events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > * Elon Riverlands doppelganger meta should give bonus rewards to those who gather enough dispersed magic, and a choice chest to those who gathered enough magic and defeated the doppelganger. > I thought that already had one? The problem is that the doppleganger isn't the end of the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haco.1546 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 The fact is: we have a problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks but once you have the beetle, banner and the incubator back item ... there is no longer any reason to care except maybe if you really want a plaguedoctor thing Also it should be more than 20 now since they added shards to the kournan chests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. Nice reasoning you got here. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to farm istan, you also still have a choice not to do it. They might shoot, but that's still your choice too. But there's HUGE incentives to do that, and not something else, so something tells me most players will farm istan. And in a game, rewards serve the same purpose. "Yeah but you can farm your legendary by doing orr champ trains and metas if you want !!!!" except nobody does them and it's literally 5 times slower than istan / sw / ... Do you have a choice? Yes. Are the options equal or even remotely close to equally valuable? No. That's what we're trying to make clear : it's healthier for game replayability and reward structure to have them far more balanced than they are now. And don't go off on another "yeah but XX and YY is almost as valuable as istan..." because it's BS. Most of the content in the game doesn't come close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't blame Istan for any of these issues. Maps in Season 3 didn't feel bad, even though Ember Bay for example gets really close to being one of those really unrewarding maps. That one at least feels like there is something worthwhile to do at all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a reward issue, but I am sure most people don't expect or even want a new Istan on every map. It's simply an issue of the time you spent doing an event vs the reward you get. Kourna FEELS like it has 3 events on the entire map, nothing to do in the time between them and absolutely awful map currency gates. You can get like what? 20 Shards a day outside the meta if you loot every single chest on the map? Plus heart vendors. Feels like a big hassle. Not fun, but tedious and clearly just done this way to artificially increase playtime on the map. Not to mention that the key card mechanic sucks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course istan is a huge reason behind the issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 5x options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, you'll pick the one you find most fun. If you wanna hardcore grind and care about it, maybe you'll go for 12 gold per hour no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you have 5 options that give between 8 and 12 gold per hour, and one that gives 30 gold per hour... Yeah guess where the players end up? Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if most players don't WANT or expect a new istan on every map. What matters is that as long as one istan exists, players will always be tempted to just get 3-5 times more rewards for the same (or often even far less) effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially as istan drops the prices and "rewardingness" of everything else. Istan literally made EVERY OTHER MAP in the game less rewarding. Because an ingame economy is relative, with supply and sink, not absolute unless fixed NPC prices and crafting. And even those are relative to istan worse off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They should have nerfed istan to the ground months ago, but too many clueless players that think farming benefits them don't grasp the basics of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already several activities that reward at least 8-12G an hour. Like how everyone is so focused on the meta, they too want all of those farms to give as much as the optimal one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I want them to be BALANCED and so does every half-sane player. > > > > > > > > > > There are several activities that reward 8-12g/hour which is irrelevant if there is a simple map that gives you 3 times more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The total rewards (in mats) need to be in balance with the total sinks (crafting, buying, tp costs, ...) to maintain somewhat stable prices and a healthy long-term economy. Also to maintain value. That said obviously fluctuations are perfectly fine, as is the market adapting due to new sinks or supply being introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody can agree on what exactly “balanced” means in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rewards of each map need to be similar enough so players can decide what they WANT to play regardless of what is most rewarding. It doesn't matter "howmuch" most rewarding is - this auto fixes itself compared to the sinks and is meaningless in itself. I don't care if i get 5 gold per hour or 50 gold per hour as long as it's balanced compared to the sinks in the game. But if most content gives 5 gold per hour, and some content gives 5 times more... then there is a problem. It incentivices heavy grinding the most rewarding content - because the difference is so big - and this becomes the baseline. The sinks will ADJUST to the highest reward; not to the lowest reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will drop prices. You’re thinking along the lines of splitting up those that are farming but not accounting for the other players randomly doing events for non-farming purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If all maps are 5 gold per hour in materials, and you add a map that gives 50 gold per hour in materials (aka release istan which was slightly nerfed)... without adding sinks, the result is not 5g per hour and 50g/hour istan. The result is 2 g / hour after prices drop and 20g/hour for istan. That's the result we're in now. And it's not good for the game in ANY way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it hurting the game? Was SW hurting the game when it was the go to farm map for years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, SW was hurting the game. > > > > > > > > Balanced means iteratively making the differences in rewards as small as possible. Similar as to what they do for PvE DPS and PvP viability of classes. You nerf maps with too much rewards, buff maps with too little rewards until they're all fairly similar. At this point, the difference between "farm maps" and "fun maps" is much smaller, which is better for replayability and long term game health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly was it hurting the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think having SW as a popular farm map for almost 5 years is "healthy" gameplay? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should have included this up above but explain how the SW farm was unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember how everyone "loved" dungeons when it was one of the best GPH, then they were ditched completely as soon as rewards were removed and other high-farm maps took over? Rewards dictate which content is played, to a quite high extent. Obviously players don't "just" play for rewards, otherwise nobody would ever play WvW or any PoF maps. But rewards most certainly determine howmuch content is repeated. Rewards definitely can decide between "fun" and "getting that legendary". And more rewards is not necessarily better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players went for the optimal farm. You yourself stated that there was nothing wrong with there being an optimal farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's as you state, farm maps drive overall prices down. What's your options after the prices are down? Bad rewards relatively speaking, or repetitively grinding the same content over and over until you ragequit. Sound familiar? Oh wait, i'm describing FashionWars2. I mean Grind4FashionWars2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They drive prices down for the items obtained from the farms. Just want to point that out as this is very different from “overall prices”. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players move on to the next best alternative. Kind of like locusts (watched Independence Day over the weekend which is where I got that). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The BEST aspect about the game was being rewarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID. IT allowed players who played for FUN to eventaully just go into full fashion because they didn't need any gear grind, or anything else. That's what fashionwars allowed. And 5 years later... we managed to GRIND with a whole lot less of FUN just to get the latest fashion... The exact same "geargrind" that GW2 was designed to avoid to begin with. Anet's response? kitten it, fashionwars2 isn't pay to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't blame them either. Keep milkin' anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And players are still rewarded no matter what they do. It’s on the players for focusing on doing only what is optimal rather than enjoying the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an optimal farm far outstrips other options some players using those other options will find their rewards/in game income impacted to the point that they see their goals pushed back. As a result the fun turns into grind as they have to work/repeat more and more to make headway. > > > > > > > > > > But they have the choice to do other farms. It’s like me choosing to farm world bosses and then being upset that other farms give out more rewards. I see no reason that all farms must reward similar loot. > > > > > > > > Except they dont really. The Istani farm gives out so much more loot than the rest that it isnt even on a comparable level, to *not* farm it and farm something else is just gimping the point of farming in the first place, unless you need specific things and even then you can make more money from Istan so overall its better to do it than not to. > > > > > > > > If all farms provided similar levels of loot, but they had different dailies it wouldnt matter in the grand scheme of things, players would follow the dailies which wouldnt be bad IMO as it would put players in different maps. > > > > > > They still have a choice. They don’t have to do the optimal farm in order to make gold. It’s not a competition with other players in regards to who can make more. If there’s a farm they find more enjoyable then they can do that. > > > > the point of farming is to get the most loot in the shortest amount of time from my understanding or am i mistaken, and at the moment no other farms really exist. the Kourna meta was nerfed and when i did the event yesterday i had a grand total of 5 players there, outside of meta event times the HoT maps are mostly empty, getting players for content on any of the PoF maps is a pain in the rear these days so i dont see farms going on there outside of the occasional bounty train but thats not that often either., Dry top and silver waste even dont seem to have many players on them. So what farms *do* exist outside of Istan? > > Auric Basin still has the best farm in the game for raw gold while Shining Baubles are the map rewards. > Lake Doric is very active > > People love the illusion of getting something worthwhile in all those unidentified gear drops in Istan. Outside of ectos it is really weak unless you have a personal use for the crafting materials out of shipments. Because they cost 1g each the actual profit is rather low from them. > > But there is a great need for all those materials, so it will continue to be good. > > Gold differences in the end aren't that huge. Istan is overhyped, people tend to forget other farms because "Go to Istan" is the perpetuated answer to anybody needing gold. > > So this all comes down to personal choice! I haven't set foot in Istan for a few months and I have more gold than ever before, just farming Lake Doric. Gotta get some variety or else the annoying task of killing mobs over and over again becomes unbearable. Glad that choice exists. Sad it doesn't exist in base PoF or other LS 4 maps. What are you on about... Half the materials in istan are already being oversupplied. It just supplies SO MANY that it's still by far the best. On release it was what... upwards of 60g/hour until the first nerf? Down from over 40g/hour once ectos completley tanked? Auric basin isn't as fast as istan and is still a very very rewarding map. Same for lake doric. Let's take some less rewarding LS3 maps. Wait no, lets take some core maps while the map rotation is on the peak. Oh right... 1/5th of istan appears to be the standard there. And the rewards you do get? Worth jack shit since istan tanked their prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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