Voltekka.2375 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > > > > > > I can solo a T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > Any ranger spec pew pew build > > > Condi Mesmer > > > Tank mesmer > > > Tank Tempest > > > Cele Holosmith > > > > > > People I know can solo T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > Full zerk any thief spec > > > Full marauder any warrior spec > > > A bunch of different mesmer builds > > > A bunch of different engineer builds > > > A bunch of different guardian builds > > > > > > And these are just myself and people I personally know, me and my friends are not even that good. There are plenty of players out there orders of magnitude better than us who can probably solo keeps on uplevels if they really wanted to. Being able to solo an objective is not an indication of the strength of a build/spec. > > > > > > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. > > > > I would REALLY like you to explain to me how you got permastealth as tempest. Would you like to elaborate? Cause this is about permastealth, and the fact that you CANT find the enemy. > > you dont need to find the enemy, he is in the tower in stealth - you already know he is there. > the problem you have (as most people) is that you want to fight a deadeye on your terms, but that is pretty much all the deadeye is about : he sets the terms for its encounters. so if you want to fight them on demand so to speak, you need to make them pick an encounter. if you/your group can beat them, they certainly wont pick an encounter against you/your group. but what he will fight in there is the lord, he also wont oneshot the lord. so make him fight the lord. for that leave the structure or make it appear as such and then gank them while they fight the lord. most either dont leave or the first that comes in is some defensive guard or a scourge etc. wich is basically for the deadeye a warning and not a threat so he then again can go back to stealth and wait till you left again. playing the waiting game is only an option if you have more endurance in that useless situation than the deadeye and even then it is mostly a loss if you use more than 1 person for it as the deadeye binding you guys makes him efficient again. > or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it. during core game many did run without condi clears or very limited because they thought it shouldnt be part of the game or whatever and then anet gave us condi reaper with HoT as an answer (and condi chrono for spvp / WvW), nowadays most have accepted that people use condis and are prepared for it. maybe someday people will accept deadeyes and just bait & kill them instead of getting frustrated, but i fear that day wont come soon. > > because of the timing of your post and you being in the same matchup - was it the O'del Academy flipping from red to blue? Yes, it was Red to blue! At the same time a Green zerg attacked a T2 fire keep. Plus, I have seen a deadeye do the same tactic against 3 tower defenders, who put stealth traps in parched outpost, only that failed as well. I honestly do not expect you or the other 1-2 DE defenders to change your mind on the subject, I really dont, having read many of your replies in this and other topics regarding deadeye stealth or mechanics. You defend such a blatantly obvious broken ability because it suits your playstyle, and that is fine. I mean, if it is a personal thing, like you suggest, "or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it" i wonder why so many people are against this particular mechanic. The condi example is poor, at best. Condi is a fundamental part in this game. Permastealth isnt. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > > > > > > > > I can solo a T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > Any ranger spec pew pew build > > > > Condi Mesmer > > > > Tank mesmer > > > > Tank Tempest > > > > Cele Holosmith > > > > > > > > People I know can solo T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > Full zerk any thief spec > > > > Full marauder any warrior spec > > > > A bunch of different mesmer builds > > > > A bunch of different engineer builds > > > > A bunch of different guardian builds > > > > > > > > And these are just myself and people I personally know, me and my friends are not even that good. There are plenty of players out there orders of magnitude better than us who can probably solo keeps on uplevels if they really wanted to. Being able to solo an objective is not an indication of the strength of a build/spec. > > > > > > > > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. > > > > > > I would REALLY like you to explain to me how you got permastealth as tempest. Would you like to elaborate? Cause this is about permastealth, and the fact that you CANT find the enemy. > > > > you dont need to find the enemy, he is in the tower in stealth - you already know he is there. > > the problem you have (as most people) is that you want to fight a deadeye on your terms, but that is pretty much all the deadeye is about : he sets the terms for its encounters. so if you want to fight them on demand so to speak, you need to make them pick an encounter. if you/your group can beat them, they certainly wont pick an encounter against you/your group. but what he will fight in there is the lord, he also wont oneshot the lord. so make him fight the lord. for that leave the structure or make it appear as such and then gank them while they fight the lord. most either dont leave or the first that comes in is some defensive guard or a scourge etc. wich is basically for the deadeye a warning and not a threat so he then again can go back to stealth and wait till you left again. playing the waiting game is only an option if you have more endurance in that useless situation than the deadeye and even then it is mostly a loss if you use more than 1 person for it as the deadeye binding you guys makes him efficient again. > > or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it. during core game many did run without condi clears or very limited because they thought it shouldnt be part of the game or whatever and then anet gave us condi reaper with HoT as an answer (and condi chrono for spvp / WvW), nowadays most have accepted that people use condis and are prepared for it. maybe someday people will accept deadeyes and just bait & kill them instead of getting frustrated, but i fear that day wont come soon. > > > > because of the timing of your post and you being in the same matchup - was it the O'del Academy flipping from red to blue? > > Yes, it was Red to blue! At the same time a Green zerg attacked a T2 fire keep. Plus, I have seen a deadeye do the same tactic against 3 tower defenders, who put stealth traps in parched outpost, only that failed as well. I honestly do not expect you or the other 1-2 DE defenders to change your mind on the subject, I really dont, having read many of your replies in this and other topics regarding deadeye stealth or mechanics. You defend such a blatantly obvious broken ability because it suits your playstyle, and that is fine. I mean, if it is a personal thing, like you suggest, "or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it" i wonder why so many people are against this particular mechanic. The condi example is poor, at best. Condi is a fundamental part in this game. Permastealth isnt. > Have fun! it doesnt really matter much if i like it or not. i can just give you the most efficient, least frustrating way to deal with the current implementation. i wouldnt mind them changing anything about it, i just do not think it is likely going to happen with current mode design and if they change something the changes are high that the deadeye you would get then would be something even less fun to fight against. all that while people forget that most of those hiding stuff was perfectly possible as daredevil and i did do that a lot before PoF, if people only complain about deadeye, the daredevil might just take that place back. dont get me wrong i perfectly understand why you think it is broken, but i dont think that anet will see it the same way, as they have to balance around mode design and not about how it is played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > > > > > > > > > > I can solo a T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > Any ranger spec pew pew build > > > > > Condi Mesmer > > > > > Tank mesmer > > > > > Tank Tempest > > > > > Cele Holosmith > > > > > > > > > > People I know can solo T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > Full zerk any thief spec > > > > > Full marauder any warrior spec > > > > > A bunch of different mesmer builds > > > > > A bunch of different engineer builds > > > > > A bunch of different guardian builds > > > > > > > > > > And these are just myself and people I personally know, me and my friends are not even that good. There are plenty of players out there orders of magnitude better than us who can probably solo keeps on uplevels if they really wanted to. Being able to solo an objective is not an indication of the strength of a build/spec. > > > > > > > > > > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. > > > > > > > > I would REALLY like you to explain to me how you got permastealth as tempest. Would you like to elaborate? Cause this is about permastealth, and the fact that you CANT find the enemy. > > > > > > you dont need to find the enemy, he is in the tower in stealth - you already know he is there. > > > the problem you have (as most people) is that you want to fight a deadeye on your terms, but that is pretty much all the deadeye is about : he sets the terms for its encounters. so if you want to fight them on demand so to speak, you need to make them pick an encounter. if you/your group can beat them, they certainly wont pick an encounter against you/your group. but what he will fight in there is the lord, he also wont oneshot the lord. so make him fight the lord. for that leave the structure or make it appear as such and then gank them while they fight the lord. most either dont leave or the first that comes in is some defensive guard or a scourge etc. wich is basically for the deadeye a warning and not a threat so he then again can go back to stealth and wait till you left again. playing the waiting game is only an option if you have more endurance in that useless situation than the deadeye and even then it is mostly a loss if you use more than 1 person for it as the deadeye binding you guys makes him efficient again. > > > or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it. during core game many did run without condi clears or very limited because they thought it shouldnt be part of the game or whatever and then anet gave us condi reaper with HoT as an answer (and condi chrono for spvp / WvW), nowadays most have accepted that people use condis and are prepared for it. maybe someday people will accept deadeyes and just bait & kill them instead of getting frustrated, but i fear that day wont come soon. > > > > > > because of the timing of your post and you being in the same matchup - was it the O'del Academy flipping from red to blue? > > > > Yes, it was Red to blue! At the same time a Green zerg attacked a T2 fire keep. Plus, I have seen a deadeye do the same tactic against 3 tower defenders, who put stealth traps in parched outpost, only that failed as well. I honestly do not expect you or the other 1-2 DE defenders to change your mind on the subject, I really dont, having read many of your replies in this and other topics regarding deadeye stealth or mechanics. You defend such a blatantly obvious broken ability because it suits your playstyle, and that is fine. I mean, if it is a personal thing, like you suggest, "or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it" i wonder why so many people are against this particular mechanic. The condi example is poor, at best. Condi is a fundamental part in this game. Permastealth isnt. > > Have fun! > it doesnt really matter much if i like it or not. i can just give you the most efficient, least frustrating way to deal with the current implementation. i wouldnt mind them changing anything about it, i just do not think it is likely going to happen with current mode design and if they change something the changes are high that the deadeye you would get then would be something even less fun to fight against. all that while people forget that most of those hiding stuff was perfectly possible as daredevil and i did do that a lot before PoF, if people only complain about deadeye, the daredevil might just take that place back. > dont get me wrong i perfectly understand why you think it is broken, but i dont think that anet will see it the same way, as they have to balance around mode design and not about how it is played. > The fumdamental issue is permastealth. Couple this with heavy ranged damage, and voila! You wanna stealth? Damage should be heavily nerfed as well. Permastealth shouldnt exist however. And that is because counters are relatively few, you cant even know where to look if let's say your outer keep wall is down and god forbid a DE is in. Stealth stacking is heavily favoring thief in all its forms. Yes, Anet should make it possible to not stack stealth. No, they wont do it, I honestly think they wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"Nate.3927" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. Question. Ive recently started trying one to find out its weakness (and to troll people/small groups by seeing reactions when I mark them but stay stealthed) and even done so on rangers/druids/soulbeasts (pewpew). As a scrub ghost sniper, i havent gotten beat by one yet. Only thing that has really beaten me so far is a core GS guardian with a wombo combo Judges Intervention while starting some GS attacks. Maybe a DH while I was speared, however I vaguely remember shadowstepping and cleansing the reveal. Only other times I die was me being cocky vs larger groups lol. Im still looking for a solid weakness to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 From experience i can tell you one of the main issues here is the maps. Things can so easily be flipped in Desert Borderland compared to the Alpine ones where it takes way longer or someone will come. Check all the lords in towers and keeps in Desert Borderland and then in Alpine . See the difference? There are no guards next to the lords in desert ones. This makes taking the tower/keep down so easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"Sleepwalker.1398" said: > From experience i can tell you one of the main issues here is the maps. > Things can so easily be flipped in Desert Borderland compared to the Alpine ones where it takes way longer or someone will come. > Check all the lords in towers and keeps in Desert Borderland and then in Alpine . See the difference? There are no guards next to the lords in desert ones. > This makes taking the tower/keep down so easy. doesnt take that much longer. i mean what does it matter if you need 2 or 3 min for a keep lord or if you need 1 min or 1,5 min for a tower lord? the main difference is the traffic on the map. i can often go on desert map and open a t3 tower with 1 cata before anyone even comes by to check, that take around 10 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can solo a T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > > > Any ranger spec pew pew build > > > > > > Condi Mesmer > > > > > > Tank mesmer > > > > > > Tank Tempest > > > > > > Cele Holosmith > > > > > > > > > > > > People I know can solo T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > > > Full zerk any thief spec > > > > > > Full marauder any warrior spec > > > > > > A bunch of different mesmer builds > > > > > > A bunch of different engineer builds > > > > > > A bunch of different guardian builds > > > > > > > > > > > > And these are just myself and people I personally know, me and my friends are not even that good. There are plenty of players out there orders of magnitude better than us who can probably solo keeps on uplevels if they really wanted to. Being able to solo an objective is not an indication of the strength of a build/spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. > > > > > > > > > > I would REALLY like you to explain to me how you got permastealth as tempest. Would you like to elaborate? Cause this is about permastealth, and the fact that you CANT find the enemy. > > > > > > > > you dont need to find the enemy, he is in the tower in stealth - you already know he is there. > > > > the problem you have (as most people) is that you want to fight a deadeye on your terms, but that is pretty much all the deadeye is about : he sets the terms for its encounters. so if you want to fight them on demand so to speak, you need to make them pick an encounter. if you/your group can beat them, they certainly wont pick an encounter against you/your group. but what he will fight in there is the lord, he also wont oneshot the lord. so make him fight the lord. for that leave the structure or make it appear as such and then gank them while they fight the lord. most either dont leave or the first that comes in is some defensive guard or a scourge etc. wich is basically for the deadeye a warning and not a threat so he then again can go back to stealth and wait till you left again. playing the waiting game is only an option if you have more endurance in that useless situation than the deadeye and even then it is mostly a loss if you use more than 1 person for it as the deadeye binding you guys makes him efficient again. > > > > or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it. during core game many did run without condi clears or very limited because they thought it shouldnt be part of the game or whatever and then anet gave us condi reaper with HoT as an answer (and condi chrono for spvp / WvW), nowadays most have accepted that people use condis and are prepared for it. maybe someday people will accept deadeyes and just bait & kill them instead of getting frustrated, but i fear that day wont come soon. > > > > > > > > because of the timing of your post and you being in the same matchup - was it the O'del Academy flipping from red to blue? > > > > > > Yes, it was Red to blue! At the same time a Green zerg attacked a T2 fire keep. Plus, I have seen a deadeye do the same tactic against 3 tower defenders, who put stealth traps in parched outpost, only that failed as well. I honestly do not expect you or the other 1-2 DE defenders to change your mind on the subject, I really dont, having read many of your replies in this and other topics regarding deadeye stealth or mechanics. You defend such a blatantly obvious broken ability because it suits your playstyle, and that is fine. I mean, if it is a personal thing, like you suggest, "or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it" i wonder why so many people are against this particular mechanic. The condi example is poor, at best. Condi is a fundamental part in this game. Permastealth isnt. > > > Have fun! > > it doesnt really matter much if i like it or not. i can just give you the most efficient, least frustrating way to deal with the current implementation. i wouldnt mind them changing anything about it, i just do not think it is likely going to happen with current mode design and if they change something the changes are high that the deadeye you would get then would be something even less fun to fight against. all that while people forget that most of those hiding stuff was perfectly possible as daredevil and i did do that a lot before PoF, if people only complain about deadeye, the daredevil might just take that place back. > > dont get me wrong i perfectly understand why you think it is broken, but i dont think that anet will see it the same way, as they have to balance around mode design and not about how it is played. > > > > The fumdamental issue is permastealth. Couple this with heavy ranged damage, and voila! You wanna stealth? Damage should be heavily nerfed as well. Permastealth shouldnt exist however. And that is because counters are relatively few, you cant even know where to look if let's say your outer keep wall is down and god forbid a DE is in. Stealth stacking is heavily favoring thief in all its forms. Yes, Anet should make it possible to not stack stealth. No, > they wont do it, I honestly think they wont. they wont because it is only a matter of fun, not a matter of balance as you cannot achieve anything while remaining in permastealth in the mode. if they would remove or reduce stealth or stealth stacking, they would surely buff the thief in other areas greatly - not sure you would want that. i just try to make people understand, that actively trying to look for the deadeye and find him is rather stupid in the current form. often when people know i am in their paper tower they will look for me, if needed for hours. yet if i leave and build outside a cata a minute later nobody will come to defend. that makes me wonder if they want to secure the tower or if they just want to kill the deadeye for no real reason. and if i am in your outer keep reamining in stealth - what am i going to do there? right nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can solo a T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any ranger spec pew pew build > > > > > > > Condi Mesmer > > > > > > > Tank mesmer > > > > > > > Tank Tempest > > > > > > > Cele Holosmith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People I know can solo T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full zerk any thief spec > > > > > > > Full marauder any warrior spec > > > > > > > A bunch of different mesmer builds > > > > > > > A bunch of different engineer builds > > > > > > > A bunch of different guardian builds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And these are just myself and people I personally know, me and my friends are not even that good. There are plenty of players out there orders of magnitude better than us who can probably solo keeps on uplevels if they really wanted to. Being able to solo an objective is not an indication of the strength of a build/spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would REALLY like you to explain to me how you got permastealth as tempest. Would you like to elaborate? Cause this is about permastealth, and the fact that you CANT find the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > you dont need to find the enemy, he is in the tower in stealth - you already know he is there. > > > > > the problem you have (as most people) is that you want to fight a deadeye on your terms, but that is pretty much all the deadeye is about : he sets the terms for its encounters. so if you want to fight them on demand so to speak, you need to make them pick an encounter. if you/your group can beat them, they certainly wont pick an encounter against you/your group. but what he will fight in there is the lord, he also wont oneshot the lord. so make him fight the lord. for that leave the structure or make it appear as such and then gank them while they fight the lord. most either dont leave or the first that comes in is some defensive guard or a scourge etc. wich is basically for the deadeye a warning and not a threat so he then again can go back to stealth and wait till you left again. playing the waiting game is only an option if you have more endurance in that useless situation than the deadeye and even then it is mostly a loss if you use more than 1 person for it as the deadeye binding you guys makes him efficient again. > > > > > or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it. during core game many did run without condi clears or very limited because they thought it shouldnt be part of the game or whatever and then anet gave us condi reaper with HoT as an answer (and condi chrono for spvp / WvW), nowadays most have accepted that people use condis and are prepared for it. maybe someday people will accept deadeyes and just bait & kill them instead of getting frustrated, but i fear that day wont come soon. > > > > > > > > > > because of the timing of your post and you being in the same matchup - was it the O'del Academy flipping from red to blue? > > > > > > > > Yes, it was Red to blue! At the same time a Green zerg attacked a T2 fire keep. Plus, I have seen a deadeye do the same tactic against 3 tower defenders, who put stealth traps in parched outpost, only that failed as well. I honestly do not expect you or the other 1-2 DE defenders to change your mind on the subject, I really dont, having read many of your replies in this and other topics regarding deadeye stealth or mechanics. You defend such a blatantly obvious broken ability because it suits your playstyle, and that is fine. I mean, if it is a personal thing, like you suggest, "or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it" i wonder why so many people are against this particular mechanic. The condi example is poor, at best. Condi is a fundamental part in this game. Permastealth isnt. > > > > Have fun! > > > it doesnt really matter much if i like it or not. i can just give you the most efficient, least frustrating way to deal with the current implementation. i wouldnt mind them changing anything about it, i just do not think it is likely going to happen with current mode design and if they change something the changes are high that the deadeye you would get then would be something even less fun to fight against. all that while people forget that most of those hiding stuff was perfectly possible as daredevil and i did do that a lot before PoF, if people only complain about deadeye, the daredevil might just take that place back. > > > dont get me wrong i perfectly understand why you think it is broken, but i dont think that anet will see it the same way, as they have to balance around mode design and not about how it is played. > > > > > > > The fumdamental issue is permastealth. Couple this with heavy ranged damage, and voila! You wanna stealth? Damage should be heavily nerfed as well. Permastealth shouldnt exist however. And that is because counters are relatively few, you cant even know where to look if let's say your outer keep wall is down and god forbid a DE is in. Stealth stacking is heavily favoring thief in all its forms. Yes, Anet should make it possible to not stack stealth. No, > > they wont do it, I honestly think they wont. > > they wont because it is only a matter of fun, not a matter of balance as you cannot achieve anything while remaining in permastealth in the mode. if they would remove or reduce stealth or stealth stacking, they would surely buff the thief in other areas greatly - not sure you would want that. > i just try to make people understand, that actively trying to look for the deadeye and find him is rather stupid in the current form. often when people know i am in their paper tower they will look for me, if needed for hours. yet if i leave and build outside a cata a minute later nobody will come to defend. that makes me wonder if they want to secure the tower or if they just want to kill the deadeye for no real reason. > and if i am in your outer keep reamining in stealth - what am i going to do there? right nothing. Kill every siege (mortars-cannons-acs etc), thus making it easier for your server buddies to build siege to attack, while the enemy (more than one people) will have to permascout whether the keep being contested is the result of you attacking random stuff or if theres any real siege being hitting the keep. Please, since you obviously know how wvw works, stop acting like you dont. Arguments like this "and if i am in your outer keep reamining in stealth - what am i going to do there? right nothing." do you little, if any, justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nate.3927" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > > Permastealth DE solo took a T3 tower, permastealthed for 30+ mins. Supply traps? Joke. Thanks ANET, if you cant fix broken stuff, you wont be seeing any money from me anytime soon on the gemstore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can solo a T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any ranger spec pew pew build > > > > > > > > Condi Mesmer > > > > > > > > Tank mesmer > > > > > > > > Tank Tempest > > > > > > > > Cele Holosmith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People I know can solo T3 tower/keep on: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full zerk any thief spec > > > > > > > > Full marauder any warrior spec > > > > > > > > A bunch of different mesmer builds > > > > > > > > A bunch of different engineer builds > > > > > > > > A bunch of different guardian builds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And these are just myself and people I personally know, me and my friends are not even that good. There are plenty of players out there orders of magnitude better than us who can probably solo keeps on uplevels if they really wanted to. Being able to solo an objective is not an indication of the strength of a build/spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stealth deadeyes are fine. I only had problems with them before I understood how their build works. You don't even need to go that far to build a counter for them, a core spec basic pew pew ranger will eat them for breakfast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would REALLY like you to explain to me how you got permastealth as tempest. Would you like to elaborate? Cause this is about permastealth, and the fact that you CANT find the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > > > you dont need to find the enemy, he is in the tower in stealth - you already know he is there. > > > > > > the problem you have (as most people) is that you want to fight a deadeye on your terms, but that is pretty much all the deadeye is about : he sets the terms for its encounters. so if you want to fight them on demand so to speak, you need to make them pick an encounter. if you/your group can beat them, they certainly wont pick an encounter against you/your group. but what he will fight in there is the lord, he also wont oneshot the lord. so make him fight the lord. for that leave the structure or make it appear as such and then gank them while they fight the lord. most either dont leave or the first that comes in is some defensive guard or a scourge etc. wich is basically for the deadeye a warning and not a threat so he then again can go back to stealth and wait till you left again. playing the waiting game is only an option if you have more endurance in that useless situation than the deadeye and even then it is mostly a loss if you use more than 1 person for it as the deadeye binding you guys makes him efficient again. > > > > > > or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it. during core game many did run without condi clears or very limited because they thought it shouldnt be part of the game or whatever and then anet gave us condi reaper with HoT as an answer (and condi chrono for spvp / WvW), nowadays most have accepted that people use condis and are prepared for it. maybe someday people will accept deadeyes and just bait & kill them instead of getting frustrated, but i fear that day wont come soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > because of the timing of your post and you being in the same matchup - was it the O'del Academy flipping from red to blue? > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it was Red to blue! At the same time a Green zerg attacked a T2 fire keep. Plus, I have seen a deadeye do the same tactic against 3 tower defenders, who put stealth traps in parched outpost, only that failed as well. I honestly do not expect you or the other 1-2 DE defenders to change your mind on the subject, I really dont, having read many of your replies in this and other topics regarding deadeye stealth or mechanics. You defend such a blatantly obvious broken ability because it suits your playstyle, and that is fine. I mean, if it is a personal thing, like you suggest, "or you can of course just contiue to bore yourself, get frustraded and complain hoping anet will care for you not willing to deal with it" i wonder why so many people are against this particular mechanic. The condi example is poor, at best. Condi is a fundamental part in this game. Permastealth isnt. > > > > > Have fun! > > > > it doesnt really matter much if i like it or not. i can just give you the most efficient, least frustrating way to deal with the current implementation. i wouldnt mind them changing anything about it, i just do not think it is likely going to happen with current mode design and if they change something the changes are high that the deadeye you would get then would be something even less fun to fight against. all that while people forget that most of those hiding stuff was perfectly possible as daredevil and i did do that a lot before PoF, if people only complain about deadeye, the daredevil might just take that place back. > > > > dont get me wrong i perfectly understand why you think it is broken, but i dont think that anet will see it the same way, as they have to balance around mode design and not about how it is played. > > > > > > > > > > The fumdamental issue is permastealth. Couple this with heavy ranged damage, and voila! You wanna stealth? Damage should be heavily nerfed as well. Permastealth shouldnt exist however. And that is because counters are relatively few, you cant even know where to look if let's say your outer keep wall is down and god forbid a DE is in. Stealth stacking is heavily favoring thief in all its forms. Yes, Anet should make it possible to not stack stealth. No, > > > they wont do it, I honestly think they wont. > > > > they wont because it is only a matter of fun, not a matter of balance as you cannot achieve anything while remaining in permastealth in the mode. if they would remove or reduce stealth or stealth stacking, they would surely buff the thief in other areas greatly - not sure you would want that. > > i just try to make people understand, that actively trying to look for the deadeye and find him is rather stupid in the current form. often when people know i am in their paper tower they will look for me, if needed for hours. yet if i leave and build outside a cata a minute later nobody will come to defend. that makes me wonder if they want to secure the tower or if they just want to kill the deadeye for no real reason. > > and if i am in your outer keep reamining in stealth - what am i going to do there? right nothing. > > Kill every siege (mortars-cannons-acs etc), thus making it easier for your server buddies to build siege to attack, while the enemy (more than one people) will have to permascout whether the keep being contested is the result of you attacking random stuff or if theres any real siege being hitting the keep. > Please, since you obviously know how wvw works, stop acting like you dont. Arguments like this "and if i am in your outer keep **reamining in stealth** - what am i going to do there? right nothing." do you little, if any, justice. i see you missed the point. when i kill your siege i am not in stealth and its the same with a lord in a tower, gank me doing it. but as long as i just remain in stealth i could aswell be standing in my own spawn and would be the same effect. contesting a structure is a completely different story and one doesnt need to be inside, dont need stealth or anything to make you look why it is contested. as one that obviously knows how WvW works dont pretend contesting without an actual threat is a thief exclusive issue. i mean sometimes people look for me in a keep for hours after i left it already and am not even in WvW or the game anymore, so how is that diffent than to being still in permastealth? for the opponent there is no difference. but its not my actions that are strong then, because i am no longer there. its the defenders illusion that they will lose instantly if they leave aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Thief in outer is not really an issue. He might take out siege and leave. In a tower they relatively easy to pin down with a group of people outside of the Desert BLS. Any ranged attack that channels works well. Sniper on sniper I found works well. You stay stealthed even as they move around taking out siege or attacking the lord. Once they reveal themselves with an attack you whack them. A Thief does not have reveals at all. S/he is just as susceptible (and more so then many) to that thief attack from stealth. When they THINK it safe because they have not seen anyone trying to chase them down and pop out to take a shot they get shot. If there is a group chasing down a single thief, nothing precludes that group from having all of their team take as many reveal type and taunt type skills as possible and coordinating the use of them. I really do not see stealth as any different then a person who comes out of a tower/keep makes a few attacks nd then runs back into the keep. Sure it on the "flip side" but just because I cant kill them hardly means towers/keeps have to be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"kash.9213" said: > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said: > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > * Anet: Y'know, perma-stealth is frustrating to play against. Let's give players a way to counter it with reveal > > > * Also Anet: Oh, deadeye dies if they're revealed. Let's give them a way to cancel reveal > > > * Soon: Oh, perma-stealth deadeye is still frustrating to play against. Let's give players a way to super-reveal deadeyes so they can't cancel it. > > > * Later: Oh, deadeye dies if they're super-revealed. Let's give them a way to cancel super-reveal. > > > * Soon: ... super-mega-ulitimate-reveal > > > > > > Typical arms race. > > > > > > I think we can all agree the current perma-stealth deadeye is bad gameplay and isn't very interactive for the person on the receiving end. There's no point in even trying to reveal the deadeye because they'll just cancel it. The best play is to not bother trying to fight and just leave or get to the safety of a zerg or tower. That's no fun. There needs to be some back and forth between the deadeye and their target. > > > > This exactly. Shadow Meld and DE's mark set up bad precedents for this game: they don't follow the rule of any other mechanics, instead superceding them. Shadow Meld is essentially a mechanic that counters a mechanic that counters a mechanic, typical arms race like you said. DE's mark can NOT be avoided by any means other than being out of range of the DE casting it. Presumably this change was made because players whined that it wasn't realistic that you could just mark someone (look at/think about them) and have them dodge that marking, but "rational" logic like that doesn't hold up in a videogame where magic is involved. Also if you did want to use that logic, the DE's mark should have range only limited by draw distance. > > > > This creates a confusing and also malignant arms race. We're potentially looking at a future involving things like a block that can stop unblockable attacks, uncorruptable boons, attacks that deal damage through invulnerability, unevadeable attacks... heck even one step more ridiculous like "Absolute Revealment" like you said which can't be removed by shadow meld. > > Even with a toned down version of all Mark effected skills, would you rather I was able to unload all of my stuff at full blast right away instead? What you're suggesting is that other classes and builds have a chance for a skill to be avoided, while the DE would have a chance to be shut down for around 20 seconds. I've Marked people with mark effects not taking place and not gaining stolen item, if you avoided everything but the Mark itself, what's your problem? That's already possible to a degree with Be Quick or Be Killed based builds. Anyway, the point I was arguing is that such a mechanic that bypasses invuln and evades is completely unprecedented in pvp. It's a foot in the door though and it wouldn't at all be far fetched to see similar mechanics show up in future elite specializations. This isn't good for game balance imo, especially since Anet has a tendency once new mechanics are introduced to then retroactively add them to currently existing skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"Arcaedus.7290" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said: > > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > * Anet: Y'know, perma-stealth is frustrating to play against. Let's give players a way to counter it with reveal > > > > * Also Anet: Oh, deadeye dies if they're revealed. Let's give them a way to cancel reveal > > > > * Soon: Oh, perma-stealth deadeye is still frustrating to play against. Let's give players a way to super-reveal deadeyes so they can't cancel it. > > > > * Later: Oh, deadeye dies if they're super-revealed. Let's give them a way to cancel super-reveal. > > > > * Soon: ... super-mega-ulitimate-reveal > > > > > > > > Typical arms race. > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree the current perma-stealth deadeye is bad gameplay and isn't very interactive for the person on the receiving end. There's no point in even trying to reveal the deadeye because they'll just cancel it. The best play is to not bother trying to fight and just leave or get to the safety of a zerg or tower. That's no fun. There needs to be some back and forth between the deadeye and their target. > > > > > > This exactly. Shadow Meld and DE's mark set up bad precedents for this game: they don't follow the rule of any other mechanics, instead superceding them. Shadow Meld is essentially a mechanic that counters a mechanic that counters a mechanic, typical arms race like you said. DE's mark can NOT be avoided by any means other than being out of range of the DE casting it. Presumably this change was made because players whined that it wasn't realistic that you could just mark someone (look at/think about them) and have them dodge that marking, but "rational" logic like that doesn't hold up in a videogame where magic is involved. Also if you did want to use that logic, the DE's mark should have range only limited by draw distance. > > > > > > This creates a confusing and also malignant arms race. We're potentially looking at a future involving things like a block that can stop unblockable attacks, uncorruptable boons, attacks that deal damage through invulnerability, unevadeable attacks... heck even one step more ridiculous like "Absolute Revealment" like you said which can't be removed by shadow meld. > > > > Even with a toned down version of all Mark effected skills, would you rather I was able to unload all of my stuff at full blast right away instead? What you're suggesting is that other classes and builds have a chance for a skill to be avoided, while the DE would have a chance to be shut down for around 20 seconds. I've Marked people with mark effects not taking place and not gaining stolen item, if you avoided everything but the Mark itself, what's your problem? > > That's already possible to a degree with Be Quick or Be Killed based builds. > > Anyway, the point I was arguing is that such a mechanic that bypasses invuln and evades is completely unprecedented in pvp. It's a foot in the door though and it wouldn't at all be far fetched to see similar mechanics show up in future elite specializations. This isn't good for game balance imo, especially since Anet has a tendency once new mechanics are introduced to then retroactively add them to currently existing skills. Guardian GS pull. DH spear pull. Dragon's Maw. All Aura effects (burning, stun, condis). Retaliation. All line of warding style skills (ring of warding, fear wall, static, etc). All of these were here before Mark. Which you can evade the side effects of anyway (mug, condis, boonsteal, etc). The elite's mechanic of malice buildup, however, is the only thing you can't avoid. Why is this an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobbah.3102 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 > @"bubblefamilyacct.7218" said: > Anet you know this is beyond broken, fix it! > Does not need a fix the simple solution is just delete it! or consign it to PVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypto.1703 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Deadeye needs to be buffed with all these OP renegades running around we need to be able to have some way of fighting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Stealth has always been a trainwreck in this game. And now they just threw more trains at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Adding reveal removing elite (and straight with 2 ammo) was a huge mistake. Together with stealth on dodge anet basically encouraged players so abuse stealth to its extremes. Great job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luranni.9470 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 I'll just leave this here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gebrechen.5643 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Everything on thief class looks so incredible skilled. Can you play it with a wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 > @"Luranni.9470" said: > I'll just leave this here.... > > DE wasn't very good lol. I play in WvW for lolz (more troll than anything) however im learning more and more about its counters/weakness (which was the initial reason of me playing it). Still garbage and not much different than the old trapper ghost thief of yester year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBecks.6453 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 perma stealth? what exactly is the point? Just seems like serious manipulation to suit one profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkpile.7439 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 > @"Luranni.9470" said: > I'll just leave this here.... > > I would have just backstab you 23k. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luranni.9470 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 > @"Junkpile.7439" said: > > I would have just backstab you 23k. :D Wouldn't be the first time! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 there are only two solutions: remove stealth entirely (my fav) or remove deadeye (not bad either). And anet should hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Remove stealth and thieves would just figure something else out and would likely be more aggravating for everyone else. Removing stealth would probably just hurt other classes more as consequence. Dodge for stealth is stupid but original deadeye and current deadeye for the most part are fine. They're not going to remove stealth or deadeye because some bad players who don't know how to dodge cry on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > Guardian GS pull. > DH spear pull. > Dragon's Maw. > All Aura effects (burning, stun, condis). > Retaliation. > All line of warding style skills (ring of warding, fear wall, static, etc). > > All of these were here before Mark. Which you can evade the side effects of anyway (mug, condis, boonsteal, etc). The elite's mechanic of malice buildup, however, is the only thing you can't avoid. Why is this an issue? Not sure what your argument is on the tethers. The pull bypasses dodge, but that makes sense. Not counting moving out of range, there is also abundant counterplay: stability, invulnerability, dodge the hit that tethers in the first place. The wards are nearly inconsequential. The only class they pose a threat to is thief due to a lack of stability options and the only two wards worth giving a damn about are static field and ring of warding (you can shadowstep/steal/port through ALL line wards with absolutely no effect on you). Even with the ring-shaped ward skills, you can still teleport across the ward, you just suffer the CC from it very briefly. The mark on the other hand is completely unavoidable unless you're out of range. May as well make malice-buildup something baseline to deadeye since you can't deprive them of it. If this change was made, I don't think I'd necessarily complain, but it still stands that DE contributes heavily to the arms race through shadow meld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now