Why are we discouraging players from returning to the game?

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Zohane.7208" said:

> > > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> > > > > I find it a curious design choice to lock the living story unless you've logged in during that period. The content was designed to be free, yet we are charging new and returning players a fee for coming to GW2. I get that they want to reward loyal players, but nobody plays a game for 7 years straight, nobody.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I have to wonder, how many more people would have returned to the game had we not hired bouncers (in the form of paying to come back) to keep players out?

> > > >

> > > > There are three options:

> > > > * Offer Living World episodes for free to barely-active players, anyone who logs on just 3-5 times/year.

> > > > * Offer Living World episodes for free to everyone, and charge more for the expansions.

> > > > * Charge everyone for Living World episodes.

> > >

> > > There are at least 4 options. You missed:

> > >

> > > * Offer Living World episodes for free to everyone. Expansions are still required to access the content.

> > >

> >

> > Offering them for free probably isn't an option. The developers and artists and such at Anet still need to get paid for what they do. I do believe that's why IwN phrased their 2nd suggestion the way they did. Even though the expansions are required they'd still have to be more expensive in order to pay for the loss of gem sales.

>

> Technically, @"Pifil.5193" is correct: there's a fourth option in which ANet develops new content without directly charging for it. And technically, they'd find it hard to keep producing the game in the manner to which we have become accustomed.

 

They already give it away for free to the active players, do you really think they make all that much from people who miss the free unlock but later on return and buy the episodes?

 

The real question is, would players who are currently put off returning due to the price of unlocking the episodes that they missed be inclined to spend as much - or more

money on the game of that charge wasn't there.

 

None of us have the answer to that. Not even anyone in ArenaNet because this is the model they've chosen and they don't know how or would go of they had chosen otherwise. I just see it as a barrier for those considering returning.

[Donari.5237]

I feel like it's very reasonable of ANet to use this model, especially because (as others above have noted) some in-game gold gathering will pay for the episodes if cash is an issue. I do understand that the *appearance* is off-putting to new people, certainly many seem to be taken aback by having to buy story (and attendant maps) in addition, but the reality is it's very manageable to do.

 

I'll grant that I'm speaking from the perspective of one of those nobodies who spend 7 years on a game. I was heavily into WoW for 7 years until GW2 arrived, and have been heavily in GW2 ever since beta in 2012. I have missed a day here and there due to RL, and a few weeks at a time while visiting my parents, but yes I have played for six years straight. (Can't really say seven years until this coming April or so, iirc the first beta weekend was April 2012).

[Dibdabs.3410]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> You will always get the most recent (or "active") LS chapter whenever you log in. You will need the most recent expansion as well, but each episode only costs 200 gems, which is like 40g. At worst, you will have that gold from doing dailies in a matter of 20 days, that is if you are doing absolutely nothing else to get gold. Not a big hurdle at all.

 

It costs £2-worth of gems to buy the chapters, so I'd rather do that than spend 20 days doing Dailies. :O

[Chyanne Waters.8719]

To get living story episodes is really easy jut log on during the time it is active takes like 3-5 minutes max then play the other game you want to. You can buy them with in game gold if you want to get the gems of course. I will say that when you buy the game with the expansions all of the Living story episodes up to the recent one should be included, but if you already had the game for a while then you should be charged for them separately.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

> @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> The content was designed to be free, yet we are charging new and returning players a fee for coming to GW2.

 

I think this is where you make a vital mistake. LS episodes weren't designed to be free. We get them for free when the content is new and we log on (whether we have said expansion or not; access is granted once you acquire said expansion), but consider that a gift from ANet to early/active players. Considering this is a game without a subscription free, they need to generate revenue through the gemstore.

 

And like someone else stated before, it requires minimal effort to log in for a few seconds once every 3 months to get the content, whether you play the game or not. All you need to do is keep track of the release schedule. I just don't understand people who complain about this (or the ones who demand it for free at all times) when it's so simple to get it for free. And for new players, it's not as if ANet charge exorbitant prices for the LS episodes. Of course, the older the game is, the more episodes there are to purchase, but that's nothing new for a game that has existed for years. Usually it's expansions you have to catch up on, but there's always catching up to do.

 

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:

> > @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> > The content was designed to be free, yet we are charging new and returning players a fee for coming to GW2.

>

> I think this is where you make a vital mistake. LS episodes weren't designed to be free. We get them for free when the content is new and we log on (whether we have said expansion or not; access is granted once you acquire said expansion), but consider that a gift from ANet to early/active players. Considering this is a game without a subscription free, they need to generate revenue through the gemstore.

>

> And like someone else stated before, it requires minimal effort to log in for a few seconds once every 3 months to get the content, whether you play the game or not. All you need to do is keep track of the release schedule. I just don't understand people who complain about this (or the ones who demand it for free at all times) when it's so simple to get it for free. And for new players, it's not as if ANet charge exorbitant prices for the LS episodes. Of course, the older the game is, the more episodes there are to purchase, but that's nothing new for a game that has existed for years. Usually it's expansions you have to catch up on, but there's always catching up to do.

>

 

You don't even need to do any sort of tracking. You just have to check your email from time to time which most people probably do.

[Vayne.8563]

I think Anet has mishandled the living world as well. Not because they charge for it, but because they're little clarity and they offer no package with everything. They do offer an ultimate expansion with gems that's enough to purchase the living world, but the way the entire thing is handled, from one not being available, to two being different from the others as not having zones attached to it, it just makes it harder for people approaching the game to understand what's going on and why. Arguably you could enjoy the game quite a lot without purchasing two but not so much without purchasing three and four.

 

That said, there's a strong argument to be made for the fact that buying the ENTIRE seven years of content is little more than half the price of a single year's sub to Final Fantasy or WoW. It's just not that expensive to catch up over all. The issue is the information isn't provided up front, so it's confusing and therefore feels bad to new players coming in. Some new players anyway.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Its an archaic design choice that does discourage players who even buy into the expansions. You have to buy the chapters you missed too and there's no indication of it on the website and store. You think you're buying the expansion and all the content involved as its advertised, but then you have another $20 price tag to pay for the LW chapters that they didn't bother telling you about until after you buy in and try to access them in game.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Dibdabs.3410" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > You will always get the most recent (or "active") LS chapter whenever you log in. You will need the most recent expansion as well, but each episode only costs 200 gems, which is like 40g. At worst, you will have that gold from doing dailies in a matter of 20 days, that is if you are doing absolutely nothing else to get gold. Not a big hurdle at all.

>

> It costs £2-worth of gems to buy the chapters, so I'd rather do that than spend 20 days doing Dailies. :O

 

Yeah but if you've come back to the game and you're going to log in on at least 20 different days before you need new content to play then you may as well use the gold from login rewards, which can only be used in GW2, to buy it rather than £2 which could go on something else.

[linamaria.1830]

The way I see is different. For me the free episodes work like a reward based on my loyalty. If i can _manage_ to log in **once** on every 2-3 months, I receive the next episode for free.

 

To be honest, I think this reward absolutely incredible for an one time logging on every 2-3 months. I really do!

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Except when you are purchasing an expansion, the Living World Season bundles are offered at checkout. Of course, there could be more of an explanation describing what those entail...

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > The fact that the episodes are free at all might well be the sticking point for these complaints. Seeing someone else get a deal seems to triggers feelings that one is entitled to that deal, even when one does not meet the criteria to qualify. If you know anyone who works in retail, they'll no doubt be able to tell you about people demanding a sale price even though the sale was last week, not this week.

> >

> > @ the OP. Since you want to discuss motivations, you might consider that the vast majority of regular posters on these forums are likely also logging in at least semi-regularly. This means they benefit from the existing business model. Don't expect a lot of sympathy for a, "But I want the freebie!" demand.

>

> Ha, that's beginner level retail complaining. The really impressive ones will demand a sale which never actually existed and which makes no sense at all, like buying a 2nd hand DS game and getting a PS4 free with it because they walked past a sign on the way in which said "buy one get one free" and stopped reading before "on selected Xbox games, lowest priced game free" and decided the part of the sign they did read must apply to any combination of items in the shop.

>

> Or they'll just demand products which have never existed, like Mario Kart on the Xbox or "Super Mario Bros Smash Party", which is NOT Super Mario Bos, Super Smash Bros or Mario Party and how can you possibly work here and be so stupid that you can't even find the game I want and how should I know what kind of box little Timmy uses? They're all play DVDs so why does it matter?.

>

> Heh, off topic but I needed that. I may get some frustrating questions in my current job but I do not miss working retail at all.

 

Hah! I bow to your superior retail-fu.

 

> By comparison the complaints and suggestions on this forum all seem very reasonable. As I said before I'd be interested to know how much money Anet actually makes from the Living Story. I can't imagine it's really that much, given how many people get it for free and how many people typically do not spend extra money on games after the initial purchase (something like 80% on average, if I remember correctly). I'm not convinced it would be a huge loss for them to give it away. But I agree that if it was, especially if it would affect the quality and/or schedule of releases then that wouldn't be a good option for anyone.

 

I suspect the intent is to collect a nominal amount from people who don't log in regularly. This may motivate some players to log in when they otherwise wouldn't. Since financial analysts all know the math behind the percentage of total players vs revenue from the percentage that spend regularly, an increase (or a plateau, if player numbers stay consistent) in the former often leads to an expectation of an accompanying increase (or plateau) in revenue. And, bigger numbers make financial reports look better.

 

> As an alternatively I'd like to see then offer some sort of "GW2 mega-collection" which includes everything released so far, except maybe the latest season of the living story. That way new and returning players have 1 simple option to catch up on everything they've missed.

 

That's actually a solid idea. Some percentage of those who complain about the cost might accept a bundle. They could even go with a staged bundle which wold allow people to select an XPac, XPac plus accompanying LW Episodes, both XPac's; both plus one (both or all LW episodes).

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> I find it a curious design choice to lock the living story unless you've logged in during that period. The content was designed to be free, yet we are charging new and returning players a fee for coming to GW2. I get that they want to reward loyal players, but nobody plays a game for 7 years straight, nobody.

>

> So I have to wonder, how many more people would have returned to the game had we not hired bouncers (in the form of paying to come back) to keep players out?

 

Its the other way around, instead of charging people coming back, it’s 100% discounted for people active at the time.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> They already give it away for free to the active players, do you really think they make all that much from people who miss the free unlock but later on return and buy the episodes?

I think they make enough that it would hurt their bottom line to give it away to everyone.

 

Let's put it a different way: if it's not that much money, why would they care to take the time to charge for it at all? Clearly, there are tons of good reasons to offer it free to everyone. There are only two reasons to charge some of us:

* It's too costly to do so and/or

* People tend to value things more if they pay for them.

 

> The real question is, would players who are currently put off returning due to the price of unlocking the episodes that they missed be inclined to spend as much - or more

> money on the game of that charge wasn't there.

A perfectly reasonable question.

 

>

> None of us have the answer to that. Not even anyone in ArenaNet because this is the model they've chosen and they don't know how or would go of they had chosen otherwise.

You're talking about scientific proof of the answer. That's like saying Coke and Pepsi can't prove how many more sales they have from spending x billions on marketing compared to what they'd have if they only spent x/2. Which is true: no one can prove it.

 

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to have a really good idea of how effective advertising is or how much of a barrier 200 gems is. They have data on how many people return and purchase LS and how many return but don't. They know how many gems for that were bought with gold and how many from RL cash.

 

So we don't have an answer, but I doubt very much if ANet hasn't consider all four options: free for all, free for newbies, free for vets, and free for no one.Their business depends on being able to answer that question accurately.

 

Of course ANet can (and has) made mistakes (and will make more in the future). This might be one of those times. It's still a more informed decision than our second-guessing is, if for no other reason than we don't have a financial stake in the outcome.

 

> I just see it as a barrier for those considering returning.

And it is. No one denies that.

 

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Lightbringer.5860" said:

> I might be a minority here, but when I am not in the mood to play gw2 I still would log on for under a minute to unlock it when a living story chapter came out.

 

This. The OP has it all wrong: no content is designed to be for free. New content should always cost money, and the fact that the frequent players are getting it for free is a _bonus_ for loyalty. It is not meant as a punishment to have to pay for LW content if you missed its release, it's the norm.

[VanWilder.6923]

> @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> I find it a curious design choice to lock the living story unless you've logged in during that period. The content was designed to be free, yet we are charging new and returning players a fee for coming to GW2.

And to log in the game once for every 3-4 months to unlock the new Ls episodes is so Kitten hard????

 

You dont need the Ls maps to play the game, There are already so many maps free for you (The ones you bought).

Also the Ls episodes are completely optional.

 

I am strongly disagree to the OP's quoted statement.

 

Just stop being GREEDY as Kitten.

 

[Hot Boy.7138]

i never gave it much thought before, but now that it has been brought up, I'm going to agree with OP. They're right. When I am trying to bring my friends into the game, the living story is how i sell the game to them. and to have it locked...

[EdgarMTanaka.7291]

I haven't actively played gw2 for 7 years but it has always been installed to my computers and I have never missed an episode to log in to accept for the one before now because I moved and didn't have internet for over the whole duration of the episode. Though I borrowed a computer at my brother to log in to unlock it but I forgot to actually log in with a character so I missed it anyway. But whatever, 200Gems I bought 800 and got me some fluff for the rest. I don't mind to support Anet once in a while.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Zohane.7208" said:

> > > > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > > @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> > > > > > I find it a curious design choice to lock the living story unless you've logged in during that period. The content was designed to be free, yet we are charging new and returning players a fee for coming to GW2. I get that they want to reward loyal players, but nobody plays a game for 7 years straight, nobody.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So I have to wonder, how many more people would have returned to the game had we not hired bouncers (in the form of paying to come back) to keep players out?

> > > > >

> > > > > There are three options:

> > > > > * Offer Living World episodes for free to barely-active players, anyone who logs on just 3-5 times/year.

> > > > > * Offer Living World episodes for free to everyone, and charge more for the expansions.

> > > > > * Charge everyone for Living World episodes.

> > > >

> > > > There are at least 4 options. You missed:

> > > >

> > > > * Offer Living World episodes for free to everyone. Expansions are still required to access the content.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Offering them for free probably isn't an option. The developers and artists and such at Anet still need to get paid for what they do. I do believe that's why IwN phrased their 2nd suggestion the way they did. Even though the expansions are required they'd still have to be more expensive in order to pay for the loss of gem sales.

> >

> > Technically, @"Pifil.5193" is correct: there's a fourth option in which ANet develops new content without directly charging for it. And technically, they'd find it hard to keep producing the game in the manner to which we have become accustomed.

>

> They already give it away for free to the active players, do you really think they make all that much from people who miss the free unlock but later on return and buy the episodes?

>

> The real question is, would players who are currently put off returning due to the price of unlocking the episodes that they missed be inclined to spend as much - or more

> money on the game of that charge wasn't there.

>

> None of us have the answer to that. Not even anyone in ArenaNet because this is the model they've chosen and they don't know how or would go of they had chosen otherwise. I just see it as a barrier for those considering returning.

 

Actually you can extrapolate an answer to that question based on simple human nature and the psychology of retail...or in simpler terms, there will always be a percentage of people unwilling to spend money to return to something if they perceive the cost to be excessive, but by the same context there will also be those that deem the cost insignificant enough to spring for said purchase(s). To make it even simpler, ArenaNet wouldn't do it this way if they didn't make money from it, there fore they make enough in sales of the individual past episodes to make the model work.

 

Also as far as the OP saying no one plays a game for 7 years straight...I think a game called WoW would beg to differ, or even GW1 for that matter(yes, there are still people that play it weekly), or even EVE Online. Now do most people play a game for 7 years straight, probably not, but there are those that do because they find the game entertaining enough.

[castlemanic.3198]

I don't have a solution to the problem. It IS a problem that new players and inactive players who want to return suddenly find large segments of the story walled off by either lots of grind or a money investment after already purchasing the expansions. At the same time, the gem store is what runs the game, it makes the model of GW2 work, with systems that invite players to log in frequently enough in order to get the most out of the game. It's a curious dilemma and one which makes me unsure of what possible methods there are of circumventing the problem, especially for new players. Because there are significant story leaps between expansions and the core game that the living world seasons cover in detail (let's for the moment ignore season 1).

 

It's worth having a real discussion over the issue without flinging insults about how 'lazy' or 'greedy' players who want access to the story without incurring additional monetary costs or large segments of time investment (irrc, Istan is currently the best place to grind for gold, which is locked behind a living world story release AND an expansion purchase). Because if I want a friend of mine to come into the game, how can i encourage them to buy the expansions if the story becomes so disconnected and walled off without forking over extra cash or investing lots of time they may not have to grind for gold to convert to gems? At the same time, the devs rely on gem purchases and expansion purchases to keep development moving forward, which lets them create the living world episodes to begin with and rewards current players with free living world episodes by logging in during the release window.

 

So I'm not sure what the balance is with that regard, how to keep minimal barriers for new player's enjoyment of the game while also giving devs the funds to keep making the game.

[Magek.4718]

> @"Archlvt.2036" said:

> nobody plays a game for 7 years straight, nobody.

>

 

Yeah, so about that....

 

 

[googel.3278]

> @"Hashberry.4510" said:

> The business model is to have customers continually exposed to gem store advertising.

 

Skins/fashion is so important to anet that they forgot about balance and lore. Angry Anet disagrees with this but its the truth

[Danikat.8537]

Honestly if I was trying to convince a friend to get GW2 now I'd just be honest with them - the game has been out for over 6 years now so there's been a lot of releases. If you want access to everything you need to buy both expansions (you get the base game with it) and a bunch of DLC, which is called the 'Living Story'. If you want to get it all in one go the best way is to buy the Ultimate Edition of Path of Fire, add Heart of Thorns and Season 2 - which gets you both of those at a discount - and use the gems from the Ultimate Edition to buy Season 3 and 4, but you might want to wait until Season 4 has finished to get the discounted pack. If you don't want to buy it all together then you can buy just one expansion, or both, and get the living story later on using either gold or real money.

 

Depending on the friend in question I might encourage them towards one option or the other. I know some people who would be more intimated by paying £100 to get everything in one go than getting bits as and when they want them, and others who would prefer that because then it's done and they can stop worrying about it until the next expansion is released. And some people who might insist they want to get everything but I know from past experience they're unlikely to actually care about the story and would be better off only buying the episodes with maps they want.

[MozezCore.3274]

Myself I am coming from BDO over here to GW2. Seeing such posts makes me literally cry. Because here in GW2 the grass is so much greener and CHEAPER. Everything here is cheap as fck. And you still want stuff to be for free in a non-p2w game.

You should be way more thankfull for our publisher's here not being as greedy as in other games.

 

[Aridon.8362]

I don't understand why people are talking about living story. The living story model on its own is fine. I think the clear reason as someone said is that too much of the game is focused on flooding goods into the cash shop, and only the pve content is getting better. There are people who play wvw and never get an update and then they quit because the mode is full of empty promises and those that are fulfilled get the wants wrong. In pvp...well let me start off by saying that I went 9 matches straight with the same people. You have to remember that there are people who play pvp modes and pve modes together and I think that's where the average player sits after they have been playing for years.

 

Don't get me wrong it's fair to compare this game to wow because the population at the downtime of an expansion is about the same, and because it's pretty much at the same caliber, if not better in content quality than wow. Wow on itself isn't a big change pvp wise and the new 40vs40 mode they have is about the same as WvW brawls. When you look at the pvp modes their capture the flag and our king of the hill modes aren't incredibly distant from being the same things, the biggest difference I would say is that we should go back to having 15v15 modes instead of having to deal with 5v5 all the time. Arena is the biggest shift pvp wise, and even then you're still partnered with someone to have to to work together with.

 

The biggest and most absolute reason people aren't coming back, simply put is because there's no reward for new content. If you look at everything that has came out every patch you don't get new armor or weapons, you don't get mount skins like they give you in wow, you just don't get rewarded for saying "I was here for this". The outfits coming out of the gem store are coming out looking like total disasters, and outfits like the herald of balthazar and servant of grenth outfits that were introduced are seemingly removed from existence. You have people farming for crap they don't even need the whole day long and only about 25% of the population of players actually raids. And the lack of any sign of progression and moments that a player like Asmongold would stuff zebra cakes on his face for, simply not being there, just adds to that spice that fuels people telling others not to come back. And that's because people want to come back to get nice things and have something to work for that changes the way game play is affected. When you do a new living story episode you come out pretty much the same without even being able to link the achievement for it; the entirety of the game, I should add is like this there's no reward for doing anything period.

 

It's great to know the problem but howw can this be fixed? Throw in a sub fee for 5 dollars a month and start putting in a progression system that gives players something to actually have to work for than to farm 1000 times for. And to push more new content that fits people's wants into pvp and WvW. If you look at wvw it is an absolute mess right now because of all the guilds consistently transferring back and forth between servers instead of playing the game. Everyone is incredibly focused on wanting to be the best guild so they look for servers that have the best guilds to fight alongside with. For pvp, personally I think it's fine, bad people keep saying all the good players left but they keep forgetting that just means others will rise up to the top. Bring back the old map too that had underwater combat into the scene as well if need be. And adjust necklaces to fit every role including tank healer instead of some power and hp wearing healer. Toughness itself should be changed so that it works against conditions as well. It's incredibly odd that after six years that the games been out toughness only affects power. In pve they should get rid of that spirit that gives a damage boost and instead give other classes besides ranger the ability to heal parties, likewise for doors to be opened for tanks to not have to be mesmers all the God damn time.