Amaranthe.3578 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Way too long. Nobody is going to read all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run. > > > > > > > > "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely. > > > > > > > > Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero. > > > > > > > > Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0. > > > > > > > > Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power. > > > > > > > > I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race. > > > > > > > > But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this: > > > > > > > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition > > > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve > > > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition. > > > > 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity > > > > Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus > > > > 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve > > > > > > > > Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while. > > > > > > > > Or warriors who have: > > > > Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance > > > > 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina > > > > 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off > > > > Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance > > > > > > > > Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period." > > > > > > -lesser smite 20s CD traited > > > -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited > > > -Smite condi is 16 CD > > > - CoP is 32s CD traited > > > - RF is 84s CD > > > -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart... > > > > > > How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win > > > > > > > Long enough depending on skill. I'm not just some random pleb that has come to that conclusion either. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVzpKN1g1Wk > > It seems that you judge professions based on how you fare against them 1v1...isn't that the basis of a biased opinion? No? I never said Core Guardian was over powered. I just said they can kill a condition mirage fairly comfortably. I think it fits into the meta in a nice way and doesn't feel too dominant, has interesting strengths and weaknesses. I'm only picking on Core Guardian because it's on the extreme end of condition cleansing but almost every class now is loaded with enough condition cleanses to make anything that's not a condition mirage or scourge completely nonviable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > @"Abazigal.3679" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone. > > > Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage. > > > But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really? > > > > > > How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds. > > > > Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run DPS warrior or thief, my bets that he won't be above 1000 after 150-200 games. Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run scourge and to directly go mid and spam AoE's, my bets he will be around 1100-1200 after 150-200 games. > > > > People aren't saying condi is easier to play than DPS generally. People say condi is easier because it's much more complicated to deal with conditions from a 5v5 point of view than dealing with physical damage. > > Most bronzers don't even know what a condi cleanse is though. So of course they aren't going to do well against it. They don't even know what the conditions are! These are ranking below our lovely botters. I mean, really. That's also because there are close to no counters generally to condi spamming, and because the true counter is usually to have 5 teammates that know how to play against condis. I've lost many games against 2 terrible scourges because we had players that simply had no idea how to handle these builds. Even supposed skills to counter conditions aren't working well. Berserker Stance as an example. In theory, you would believe the skill will make you immune to conditions for x seconds, but in pratic, everyone knows how it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > [...]...why do people insist of using the same arguments to support their claims instead than use actual facts? [...] > Why do you do it? > > Power is even more "fire and forget" because once the dmg is dealt, there is no way for the enemy to undo it. This can go as far as straight oneshots. Meanwhile for condi builds landing hard hitting skills alone means nothing, because the dmg might just get cleansed or outhealed, so constant reapplication of condis is mandatory. And this requires the player to do something - or with other words "to be active". > Firee and forget? Sure..I take any class and I can recollect from your burst in no time from 20% Hp I go back to 100% easy peazy, what are you talking about? enemy can't undo direct dmg?..with an ele you do 1 dodge and you're back to full HP > > Retaliation is stronger **on** power builds, but not stronger **against** power builds, because the dmg scales with the power of the source, so this boon provides an advantage for power builds actually. Weakness and protection are usually stronger vs Power. Resistance is stronger vs Condi. Yes, the latter is less common, but also way more powerful - even weakness and protection together don't come close to 100% dmg reduction. Boonstrip is irrelevant for this argument, because it is not that common - unlike condi remove to counter weakness - and affects all boons (otherwise you might aswell note that protection and retaliation are easily removed). > And your point is? You basically repeated my same sentence..... > Toughness alone doesn't counter power builds. It reduces their dmg, but doesn't negate it. If you don't use additional defensive means, you are going to die, no matter how much toughness you stack. Just like cleanses reduce the dmg of condi builds but aren't (and shouldn't be!) your only defense. And that reduction can be much greater than the dmg reduction from toughness if utilized well. Additionally healing is more effective vs condi, because the dmg over time nature of condition damage grants more time for healing to do work, so to some extent healing power could be considered an anti condi stat. > Playing semantic? yeah obviously toughness doesn't hardcounter power...it reduces it, what stat again reduce condi dmg? > Condi skills are not in general aoe/instant/low casttime/low CD/ranged/whatever. Power skills are not always telegraphed/single target/long cd/melee/ ... The fact that most meta builds are power indicates that power skills are on average better than condi skills. There might be some exceptions, but those don't represent a general rule. > Other classes haven't got eazy mode condi build like necro and mesmer...they play what they can > > Torment and confusion only do one thing - damage. That dmg can sometimes be reduced even without using any cooldowns - by not spamming skills or running arround like a headless chicken. Additionally those conditions are aviable in significant amounts only to a few classes. > > Chill doesn't deal dmg and therefore is utilized by power builds just as well. In fact current meta condi builds (mirage, scourge) have little to no chill application unlike some common power builds. > > Also many power skills do more than one thing. No power spec punishes you for moving or using a skill and...you suggest people not to move or do anything at all to "neutralise" the effects of torment and confusion, nice move > Done (by a mostly "power player" btw) > > Also to answer your initial question "why people like condi builds". They add variety, which makes the game more interresting. > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players. > > > > > > It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves. > > > > > > Look at some of the best power skills in the meta: > > > > > > Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup. > > > Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap > > > Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now. > > > Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault. > > > > > > Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta: > > > > > > All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations > > > Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities > > > Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE > > > > > > TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2. > > > > Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself? > > > > Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs. > > > > It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op. > > > > Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land . > > You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right? > > You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making. > > Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices. Condis need to hurt and for slow damage to work everyone, and that means mirage and scourge need to be nerfed., and then those classes need to have sustain and duration in their builds to have their sustain not be sacrificed while doing condi dmg slowly, which means scourge will need to be buffed in a way that it doesnt have to sacrifice too much dmg in condi so it can slowly kill people, and have the survivability to land a kill slowly.You would need conditions to be a lot longer, and bleeds would either have to be in a bit more quantity over burns so it can hurt, or it would have to be reworked in some way that something else is included, such as stamina is being lost while bleeding. Right now, having slow condi dmg is practically useless, because everyone can 1 shot you with burst that is doing 20 to 30k dmg, even reaper can practically one shot people if you cc someone like a warr which has a lot of health, and just spam 1 and 3. Scourge can put out a bit of burn and torment with torch, and some poison and bleeds with wand, but not nearly enough to kill someone before you die. Also, keep in mind that boon corrupt is putting out a lot of condis as well, since you are corrupting boons into conditions as scourge, and you have fairly high amount of it. I swear nobody will be happy until the opposite class of theirs is completely useless and can only stand still and take dmg and die, making the game pointless for the opposite class. People been whining about necros, eles, thieves, warriors, mesmers etc. Look at the nerfs to thieves, they are getting nerfed to death because of deadeye. Look at how people are still crying for more nerfs to chrono and mirage even if they already got nerfed, and they want mesmers to be completely useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan.9035 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 So necro and mesmer are the problem. Its not like wvw has huge problems with large zergs of condi engis running around. You think condi is easier to play thats fine its your opinion. Tryig to explain to you thats its not like that is a waste of time. You want immunity to condi. Just think about power right now it the meta. You have so much counter to it as you say and yet its still hits like a truck with great sustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: >the devs already stated that necro had the highest win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind One of the highest =/= the highest. That was also a direct reference to reaper which classically plays power builds. Condi reaper hasn't been a thing for many many months. This is the exact quote: > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > To put things in perspective, Reaper had one of the highest win-rates and play-rates in ranked last season. There is also a reason that most scourge in WvW play hybrid or power now and will soon enough be a shift that they wont be a majority zerg makeup. Your posts just circles back around to "condi is a problem because of necro and mesmer" when in fact conditions overall are in a fairly weak state compared to power and those two builds are what you do not like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Reading the last posts, i indeed agree that the question is more likely " Are condis easier to play " or " Are scourge and mirage easier to play " . That's clearly the second point to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Zero.3871" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults it seems you are on your own crusade. when People Posting SCREENSHOOTS of 30k+ hits from maul or 10k+ AA from LB where is this Twisted by words? People arguing with Facts they collect ingame. they also arguing against necros, mesmers, Warriors, …. with different meanings and Facts. if someone post such Facts you can start to discuss These. for example if someone said he got hit by necro lesser spinal shivers for 8 k, it got discussed and the result was that anet nerfed a passive offensive proc because it didnt had any telling/counterplay. now it is more for boonhate less for dmg/less punishing for the enemy. same for warrior FC. People made screenshoots of massive hits from FC while this skill is proovable also applying heal, boons while denying a lot of dmg. result of that discussion. anet nerfed this skills dmg. now its mainly a defensive skill. where are this Things bias? it got dicussed and it seems this skill did too much at once. i could bring examples for nearly every class. and now People are arguing About massive Bursts by rangers while this class still has Access to invulns, dodges, blocks for good Sustain + mobility. it seems too much in ONE build. we will see the results…. and also this thread. the Claim that condi builds are easier than power builds came up 2 years ago when condi meta came up after some condi buffs anet did that days so that condi builds had same dmg AND burst potential like power builds but with 1000 toughness more in stats. but nowadays a lot of condi cleanses got implemented to the game since that time, while burst potential of condi got heavily nerfed. so it seems that power and condi are evenly easy to Play. i dont know what here is Twisted by words or biased. the only one that biased Statements was you, by changing @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Statement to something he never said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteepledHat.1345 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Slow damage in a game mode about point capture with points attributed per unit time will never work. You're asking for a power only meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Slow damage over time that can be 100% resisted, cleansed, or simply minimized by exercising self-control (torment and confusion) is somehow easier to play than instant, potentially 1-shot direct damage? There are literally two viable condi builds in the game, the rest being power. Why is this even up for debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > Slow damage over time that can be 100% resisted, cleansed, or simply minimized by exercising self-control (torment and confusion) is somehow easier to play than instant, potentially 1-shot direct damage? There are literally two viable condi builds in the game, the rest being power. Why is this even up for debate? Everybody would be running a condi spec if they had something like this for their class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0JWZ8t08TY&t=407s&list=PLBF2912D72F052EC7&index=79 Can we see a video of you playing this "easY" one shot power build?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults > > Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. > > Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. > > There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. > Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schloumou.3982 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: >Condi builds are indeed mechanically easier to play than power builds. Let's take a look at a reference point of historically popular condi builds vs. their power ounterparts: > **Condi Engineers** - Terribly inefficient, but easier to play because its kit is just one big burn burst macro. Outside of that, dodge roll and position correctly. >-Trevor Boyer.6524 Hey, may i use this as chatover in vids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > > > > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > > > > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults > > > > Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. > > > > Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. > > > > There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. > > > > Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon.... I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > > > > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > > > > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > > > > > > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults > > > > > > Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. > > > > > > Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. > > > > > > There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. > > > > > > > Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon.... > > I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah. > You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > > > > > > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > > > > > > > > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults > > > > > > > > Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. > > > > > > > > Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. > > > > > > > > There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. > > > > > > > > > > Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon.... > > > > I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah. > > > > You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more. Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead. The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down. If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit. Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs? Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults > > > > > > > > > > Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. > > > > > > > > > > Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. > > > > > > > > > > There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon.... > > > > > > I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah. > > > > > > > You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere > > Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more. > > Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead. > > The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down. > > If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit. > > Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs? > > Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works. > Ranger receives nerfs all the times..like last patch applied nerfs and ofc these are not the class destroying nerfs you necro are looking for. What exactly are you looking for? A ranged designed class that does no relevant damage from range so that you can F1-F5 faceroll this class too like you do with the rest? -X player : can't counter necro at melee range -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob : Player X bring cleanse -Necro player : too much cleanse in game -X player : can't counter necro at melee range -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob ..or avoid our aoe spam -X player: how can I avoid melee aoe spam while keeping pressure at melee range? -Necro player : go range you noob - X players : goes range -Necro player : too much damage from range - X player: drop the mouse and uninstall the game Necro community since 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...**the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro**..."add diversity" my behind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anet said **REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates** (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and **reaper got barely played with condi**. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon.... > > > > > > > > I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah. > > > > > > > > > > You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere > > > > Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more. > > > > Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead. > > > > The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down. > > > > If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit. > > > > Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs? > > > > Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works. > > > > Ranger receives nerfs all the times..like last patch applied nerfs and ofc these are not the class destroying nerfs you necro are looking for. What exactly are you looking for? A ranged designed class that does no relevant damage from range so that you can F1-F5 faceroll this class too like you do with the rest? > > > -X player : can't counter necro at melee range > > -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob > > : Player X bring cleanse > > -Necro player : too much cleanse in game > > -X player : can't counter necro at melee range > > -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob ..or avoid our aoe spam > > -X player: how can I avoid melee aoe spam while keeping pressure at melee range? > > -Necro player : go range you noob > > - X players : goes range > > -Necro player : too much damage from range > > - X player: drop the mouse and uninstall the game > > Necro community since 2012 F1 to F5 thing is irrelevant like i said, because that is a scourge thing. Do you know the difference between reaper and scourge? it sounds like you are combining reaper and scourge abilities. That would be like lets say if someone made a stereotype about rangers where they go use the druid avatar healings while fused with their pet in soulbeast build, NO you cannot have soulbeast and druid spec abilities at the same time. The aoe spam from range? thats scourge not reaper. Each one has a different weakness, and im not asking for soulbeast to be gutted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Actually half meta power builds I fight have condi between 1st to 4th damage position in the death report while their owner had 0 condi damage amulet, is it normal ? :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 **'It's so easy to tell a lie but a lie will never make the truth go away'** 'Duna RDRM GW2 Roaming Mesmer#3 Hybrid (fights in Na and back to eu ) CANCER' ( build included in video) - -DUNA-mesmer- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players. > > > > > > > > It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves. > > > > > > > > Look at some of the best power skills in the meta: > > > > > > > > Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup. > > > > Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap > > > > Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now. > > > > Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault. > > > > > > > > Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta: > > > > > > > > All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations > > > > Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities > > > > Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE > > > > > > > > TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2. > > > > > > Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself? > > > > > > Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs. > > > > > > It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op. > > > > > > Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land . > > > > You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right? > > > > You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making. > > > > Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices. > > Condis need to hurt and for slow damage to work everyone, and that means mirage and scourge need to be nerfed., and then those classes need to have sustain and duration in their builds to have their sustain not be sacrificed while doing condi dmg slowly, which means scourge will need to be buffed in a way that it doesnt have to sacrifice too much dmg in condi so it can slowly kill people, and have the survivability to land a kill slowly.You would need conditions to be a lot longer, and bleeds would either have to be in a bit more quantity over burns so it can hurt, or it would have to be reworked in some way that something else is included, such as stamina is being lost while bleeding. > > Right now, having slow condi dmg is practically useless, because everyone can 1 shot you with burst that is doing 20 to 30k dmg, even reaper can practically one shot people if you cc someone like a warr which has a lot of health, and just spam 1 and 3. > > Scourge can put out a bit of burn and torment with torch, and some poison and bleeds with wand, but not nearly enough to kill someone before you die. Also, keep in mind that boon corrupt is putting out a lot of condis as well, since you are corrupting boons into conditions as scourge, and you have fairly high amount of it. > > I swear nobody will be happy until the opposite class of theirs is completely useless and can only stand still and take dmg and die, making the game pointless for the opposite class. > > People been whining about necros, eles, thieves, warriors, mesmers etc. > > Look at the nerfs to thieves, they are getting nerfed to death because of deadeye. > Look at how people are still crying for more nerfs to chrono and mirage even if they already got nerfed, and they want mesmers to be completely useless. > > No. People don't want mesmers to be useless, but having condi-application without doing anything is a real problem. Last week I fought a Condi mirage in wvw. He was very bad and I killed him with my necro. Still, I got so many conditions, while he just ran away. Because you know, it's pretty hard to dodge every autoattack of those clones. Also. Let's take scourge in a 1v1. It's pretty damn easy to kill it, if you know, which attacks you have to avoid. While it's still very strong in teamfights (guild groups and zergs), when you get your back carried by firebrands. While sadly, boonshare mesmer got almost deleted from wvw zergs. But even then, scourge dmg got gutted so hard, that you have to play very offensive stats, while having no defense on your own. There's always pros and cons. The real problem we have, is anet not doing any useful skillsplits. Let's stay with the necro/mesmer comparison: Mesmer is still the most used support in high-end pve (raids). While necro is mediocre at best. Being the worst DPS class you could take. There's actually 2 bosses, where necro is meta: sabetha and soulless horror. But you don't take the necro for their damage, you take them for free addcleave. And let's not talk about support scourge. It's still underwhelming, and not a good choice as a support for good groups. And then there's PvP modes. Ok let's actually speak about wvw. Where mesmer is one of the best roaming classes (together with thief and ranger), but it's not so good in zergs anymore. It's utilities still make it useable though, while necro is just very good in zergs, because it has a lot of cleave and boon corrupt (even though I think it might need a little bit more due to how easy it is to get boons for most classes). And I think, that's all because there is no proper skillsplit. And it's not, because skillsplit is hard to do, but because anet seems to not want to. Not want to make professions play different in every gamemode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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