Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > Why does this really matter? If you, personally, like to "gamble" with BLC then do so. If you don't, then don't. How does another player's decision to "gamble" or not affect you? Someone's decision to purchase something that effects the game economy does effect others, thanks to Anet making it every player's business that these lock boxes are integrated into the game through the economy. The problem is that you didn't come to that realization when you structured this thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said: > > > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh) > > > > > > > > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p > > > > > > Lazily? Why? > > > Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you? > > > > Why should an adult be forbidden to enjoy a gamble because a lazy parent isnt doing their job? > > Why should people play a game, with game play that doesn't have anything to do with gambling, have to succumb to a system that doesn't let them outright buy the luxury items? The basic structure of the game, the genre really, involves something akin to gambling, so, "nothing to do with gambling," is inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Yes they are gambling. The same as playing the game and hoping a mob drops a precursor or gambling ectos at the ecto gambler. Still gambling none the less. > > > > The only difference is you could pay real life cash and 100% purchase a precursor off the tp vs buying 1000 black lion keys and possibly never attaining the rare exclusive, non buyable items inside. > > > > Its further muddied because said unbuyable exclusive items eventually become available via black lion token at the vendor in the future. > > > > So its gambling with alternative ways of obtaining the exclusive items. > > To be fair, if you buy and use 1000 keys you are guaranteed to get sufficient statuettes to buy any item. You might have to wait for a while for a given item to be added to the statuette list, but you have a 100% chance to get what you want...the opposite of gambling. Except permanent contracts. The big jackpot in all these boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > The basic structure of the game, the genre really, involves gambling, so, "nothing to do with gambling," is inaccurate. No. Just no. I don't spend money every time I enter a meta in the hopes to get a rare item. I don't put pennies into every mob kill in hopes to get a precursor. Your comment is pure nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"BigBragg.8354" said: > > I am not so much a fan of RNG boxes, but here is a little perspective: > > > > Is RNG loot from a raid boss gambling? > > No, because money isn't involved in that action. Their could be money involved tho (when people buy kills from gold transfered from gems.) > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > What makes them predatory? > > > > The fact that it insentives to spent more money? > > > > The fact that it might generate an addiction? > > > > Something else? > > Its predatory that they don't label it as gambling items under a guise that lets them skip out of regulation, confirmation, fraud prevention, and taxation. 1) their is a point that can be made that it is not gambling as their is no loss state. 2) they do have to follow regulations tho (look at the Belgium players for example) > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said: > > > > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh) > > > > > > > > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p > > > > > > Lazily? Why? > > > Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you? > > > > Why should an adult be forbidden to enjoy a gamble because a lazy parent isnt doing their job? > > Why should people play a game, with game play that doesn't have anything to do with gambling, have to succumb to a system that doesn't let them outright buy the luxury items? Because gambling in itself isn't necessarily evil. And you're not argument can be made for almost all additions to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalocin.5982 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > The basic structure of the game, the genre really, involves gambling, so, "nothing to do with gambling," is inaccurate. > > No. Just no. I don't spend money every time I enter a meta in the hopes to get a rare item. I don't put pennies into every mob kill in hopes to get a precursor. > > Your comment is pure nonsense. Gambling doesn't have to be the expense of currency (ie Gamble your life by jumping from a cliff to see if you'll live). I think it's a bit much to say all RNG elements is a form of gambling though. You might call it a gamble to try and do a meta event with a small amount of people though. Gamble/gambling simply means doing something with a risk involved (usually of some form of undesirable consequence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBragg.8354 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"BigBragg.8354" said: > > I am not so much a fan of RNG boxes, but here is a little perspective: > > > > Is RNG loot from a raid boss gambling? > > No, because money isn't involved in that action. Can free to play accounts access raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Yes, yes they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"BigBragg.8354" said: > Can free to play accounts access raids? I think you lost yourself in the conversation somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBragg.8354 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"BigBragg.8354" said: > > Can free to play accounts access raids? > > I think you lost yourself in the conversation somewhere. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 To everyone who replied to me, I've already refuted all those arguments. Semantics of how the word gamble can be used in every day speech doesn't counter any of my points. I think people are confusing the metaphorical use of the word gambling with what is legally defined as gambling as far as fair play laws are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"BigBragg.8354" said: > > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > > @"BigBragg.8354" said: > > > Can free to play accounts access raids? > > > > I think you lost yourself in the conversation somewhere. > > How so? People who pay directly to access specific content is not gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Kalocin.5982" said: > > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > The basic structure of the game, the genre really, involves gambling, so, "nothing to do with gambling," is inaccurate. > > > > No. Just no. I don't spend money every time I enter a meta in the hopes to get a rare item. I don't put pennies into every mob kill in hopes to get a precursor. > > > > Your comment is pure nonsense. > > Gambling doesn't have to be the expense of currency (ie Gamble your life by jumping from a cliff to see if you'll live). I think it's a bit much to say all RNG elements is a form of gambling though. You might call it a gamble to try and do a meta event with a small amount of people though. Gamble/gambling simply means doing something with a risk involved (usually of some form of undesirable consequence). Thats not really whats being talked about here is it? Asking a girl out on a date is a gamble too, but its only regulated by law if we go deeper down the rabbit hole and talk about exchanging money for said date. Same thing with "gambling" in games. Theres gambling... and then there is *gambling*. Game corporations call it "player choice" or "engaging the player" but I'm pretty sure pimps call it that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > To everyone who replied to me, I've already refuted all those arguments. Semantics of how the word gamble can be used in every day speech doesn't counter any of my points. > > I think people are confusing the metaphorical use of the word gambling with what is legally defined as gambling as far as fair play laws are concerned. You really haven't refuted most points. You're just starting from the standpoint that blc are bad and filled the blanks to get their. I understand that you're annoyed by it but the direction you're taking is not usefull for anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfyrik.2017 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Linken.6345" said: > You dont have to pay cash, I get free keys from story 10, 40 and 60 each week, rarely from completing maps and even rarer still from random mob. A bet on a horse doesn't stop being gambling because you bet the £5 you found on the floor. The keys are essentially free bets, gambling outfits often give people free bets. It's still gambling. BLC are gambing aimed at minors. The fact is that you can only get certain skins through gambling and skins are pretty much endgame for GW2. It doesn't change when people gain those skins through their free bets. Free bets are how gambling establishments draw people in, it's worth the risk because gambling is so addictive because that losses will be made up for by people putting down actual money as a result and because some of them will become real addicts. Whales in MMO terms. The very existence of them is gambling and insidious. Its there to encourage people, many under the legal age for gambling, to put real money in to the system, in the hopes they will get hooked and keep putting more cash in. There is no part of BLC that was designed to be beneficial to the player, they are there exclusively to abuse gambling psychology and make money. That said BLCs aren't as utterly awful as the stuff you see coming from the likes of EA. The reason people were so angry at the mount adoption licenses, was that it crossed the line. There was no other way to gain good mount customisation or the skins, other than gambling. The licenses showed exactly what the BLCs are and the disturbing direction ANET could easily take off the back of BLCs. BLCs maybe a toned down form of loot box, but they're still loot boxes. They're still gambling and getting free bets, doesn't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ok I Did It.2854 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Im sure others have said its an RNG gamble, in saying that if you had asked this question this time last year i would have said yes they are worth it, but since roughly last April/May Anet has clearly turned down the RNG to near squat, to the point where currently they are absolutely NOT worth it, you would be better converting gems to gold, You will get people that will say they have never been good etc, last year i was doing roughly 100 keys every time the chests updated, and Jan-April they where great, you would get the wardrobe unlocks, the skins etc, but as the year went on they got less and less and less, to the point, my last set of keys i did at Xmas i did not get anything from the uncommon or above, every single 1 of the 25 keys where common drops, i havent rolled any keys since, ( i should note i stopped at 25 keys and did not invest in more this time, due to the 25x common only drops ) There are a few streamers recently who have rolled 200+ keys and got nothing back either the most recent one spent 4,500 gold in gems on keys, and got 500 gold back in return, So do yourself a favor **DONT BUY THE KEYS**, until Anet fixes that stupid RNG, clearly keys where becoming to good, so Anet decided to turn it all down again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said: > > > Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle? > > If they are officially gambling or legally gambling is a very interesting question at the moment. Officially in most countries they are not, but I ascribe that purely to the fact that when these laws were passed this sort of thing either didn't exist yet or was unknown to the lawmakers. That is changing now, particularly in the EU with Belgium and the Netherlands at the forefront. They are already making a point with some games from EA and 2K and some of their stuff has already been forbidden as it has been ruled gambling. This includes cosmetics by the way. > > > > If you take the legal things aside however the black lion chests most certainly use the same principles that gambling does and it does have the ability to push people with more addictive personalities to spend and overspend. Sure you can earn some in game but that's not nearly enough to keep up and get some of those really rare items. Currently there is the Exalted Shoulders item that is a clear example of pushing gambling behavior since it's a random rare drop and it's account bound. That's about as bad as it gets with regards to these chests. > > > > To be honest, the government agencies that regulate gambling in the EU have gotten together and are meeting regularly to come up with some EU wide policies and once they do I think GW2 will have to change some things as well, because it's pretty clear that the BLC's aren't any different from lootboxes. And the fact that you can earn some keys via gameplay is a poor excuse because you'll never be able to generate enough keys to get certain items unless you are extremely lucky. > > > > There are some mitigating factors when it comes to ArenaNet. They're not as bad as many other games but also that doesn't really excuse this. It's a predatory form of revenue generation and it's only because it was under the radar of the governments who simply were unaware of this that it's become normalized. I think it's good that there has been a lot of anger about it since BF2, but all in all you have to wonder at things costing 10-20 bucks per item in a game you pay 60 bucks for. It clearly is overpriced. And I do have understanding for people who simply want to support the game and put extra money into it, but I think RNG items like this are of the devil. I tried BLC's and my conclusion is that yes they are lootboxes and once regulations are in place they will have to change. Sadly it will likely take laws because companies do not have the moral will to self-regulate. And that's where ArenaNet are no different than the rest. They may have convinced themselves that their cash shop is pretty fair but it's just not as bad as some other games. > > > > Personally, I accept that this is what the current status is of things but I find myself increasingly stepping away from games that monetize like this. The new Anthem game that comes out in a few weeks is shaping up to have the same type of issues so I won't buy it if that ends up being the case. And well, I do understand running costs for ArenaNet so a little bit here or there I find acceptable to spend. But I also see the problem for people who have a hard time braking themselves in that. Addictive personalities are something that you get genetically. It's not a choice or a willpower thing. And especially in a teen rated game, I will be happy to see RNG rewards disappearing entirely from anything you can spend real money on. But also things like promotions where certain items are only available for short times and not knowing when they will come back are part of a very nefarious system of money making. It's manipulative and preys on weaknesses that people may have. When ArenaNet staff read this (if indeed they do) they might find my wording harsh or confrontational, but the reality is there. What I say is true, but because it's become common practice, it gives people the idea it's normal and okay. Well it's not. > > > > And it's because companies are too greedy to self-regulate, that laws are coming, at least in the EU and some countries already have them. Because the truth is that kids who learn these addictive patterns are bad for the economy as a whole and because when it is considered gambling then of course the tax man wants his cut as well. I think it's fair to be a little bit milder towards ArenaNet but the bottom line is that their cash shop does use manipulative methods to increase sales and these methods do unfortunately exploit particularly people who are susceptible to this. At least with direct sales you know what you're getting, with RNG, you have no idea whether you'll get it at all. And finally, the point that a lot of stuff is cosmetic doesn't change anything. That's a weird idea that a lot of people have. This game is called Dress up Wars or whatever for a reason. Cosmetics are a big deal and that's what they're taking advantage of. But I do think the gaming industry as a whole has simply not been able to self-regulate. So as much as I prefer fewer regulations in general, this is clearly a situation where they will only have themselves to thank for them. > > > > I would really like ArenaNet to pull RNG from their gem store. I'd be the right thing to do. RNG can exist in the game but not in a cash shop. From a moral or ethical point of view you can't really defend them, particularly in a game rated for minors and they should be classed as gambling. That's my take on it at least. Anyone is free to have their views of course. > > What makes them predatory? > > The fact that it insentives to spent more money? > > The fact that it might generate an addiction? > > Something else? What makes it predatory is the following. First of all it exploits an known character flaw described as addictive personalities. Now there are discussions whether or not this is a personality issue but whatever you call it there are many people who are not able to resists certain behaviors or triggers and exploiting this makes it predatory. Also do mind that this is not limited to GW2 or gaming. Even social media with their 'like" systems trigger addictive behavior and just look at how many people can't do without their phone for a day or even an hour. This is essentially unhealthy behavior and it's targeted directly by companies knowingly or not, but by now they should know. The other thing is that it's something that children or teens if you prefer are exposed to because it's a teen rated game. Teens are in an age group where important developments happen with regards to the development of the brain. That's why some things like gambling are not allowed for minors because it can normalize behaviors that are not desirable and children are more easily affected, no matter how rebellious they think they are. I think I can assume that people agree that children should be taught good behaviors so that as an adult they are able to manage life as it is. Pushing addictive behaviors and exploiting them in a way the gaming industry does has already done a lot of damage in normalizing this. That's why a lot of people just shrug and don't see the problem. That's not because there is no problem, but because people have been desensitized to it so they do not recognize it anymore. Predatory means that you prey on people's weaknesses, you exploit them for personal gain. Between children who are developing their brains and life behaviors and people who are more susceptible to that. The effect is also strongly enhanced by the cost of these items. Black Lion keys cost for example 2100 gems for 25 of them. That is roughly 26 euros. If they use the same dollar amounts as euros then it would be 26 dollars. So it's over a dollar/euro a key. But the gem shop is full of things that are there to entice with limited time sales and promotions happening constantly. So essentially GW2 create a place where tens or hundreds of thousands of people come by and within that space have their monopoly in the only shop in town. There is a reason why in the real world there are laws against monopolies and cartels. The truth is that people haven't thought through what is actually happening here. They can set prices as they want and they only have to look at a handful of competitors to see what sort of prices people generally accept, but it's easy to spend 50-100 bucks a month in a cash shop or more. And the actual value of what you get is not even close to that. Listen, when ArenaNet is said to be less predatory than for example EA, I do agree, but it doesn't make them saints. And businesses will generally stay within the law but only just. They do not think about ethics beyond looking at what is everybody else doing and how do we position ourselves with that. I think though that if you take it out of that context and say is it really ok to charge 10 or 20 bucks for an outfit when the game itself costs 50 bucks, I think it's not. So the problem is much bigger than just gaming and I'm certainly not saying that ArenaNet are doing something unusual in the world as we know it today. But as law makers are becoming aware of what's going on with loot boxes in particular, we see that there is an instant reaction of shock and a desire to curb it. That alone should tell people something. There is still a large difference between doing nothing illegal and being ethical. And it's that difference and the inability of companies in general to be more ethical that triggers new laws and regulations. And so I expect that it will not stay with Belgium and the Netherlands. In fact there is a lot more going on and studies done in Austria already show a correlation between kids growing up with loot box spending and poor decision making as an adult when it comes to financial decisions in particular. And that should come as no surprise to anyone. To think that something is not a problem just because it doesn't affect you or you think that it doesn't affect you is not a useful argument. Not everyone is created equal and to keep a society healthy there needs to be a level of stability and predatory practices destabilize people's lives. It's also worth noting that when you turn 18 and are officially an adult that suddenly you are a different person with different coping skills and personality traits. So being an adult is no protection by itself. I mean we could choose to accept a free for all market and let everybody do everything they want but even now with government regulations the excesses are terrifying. The fact that for example 75% of prescription drugs in the world are prescribed in the USA alone should indicate to anyone what happens when capitalism has little to no brakes. Doctors getting paid by companies to prescribe unnecessary drugs, the amounts of sugar in supermarket food etc. are all examples of a world gone wrong. So it's no surprise that it normalizes a lot of things in our world today. That's also why I don't flat out call ArenaNet evil or say that they are willfully using predatory practices but I think it's important that they hear from people that some of the things they do are in fact predatory and unethical. Now when people have a different view on that, that's ok. It is a free world after a fashion. But I suspect that when people disagree with what I'm saying they will probably have a very different set of ethics from mine. I think we're in this world together. None of us chose to be here, that choice was made by at least one of our parents but certainly not by ourselves. And were are born into this world with all kinds of defects and disabilities, some more visible than others. Also with different skill sets. I mean I'm sure that if the only way you could get rich was by playing chess this would make a lot of rich people of today poor and vice versa. But in my view excessive gains always come at the cost of other people. That's why I do not support economic systems that exploit and prey on people. We saw that for example communism failed as a system and it will always fail because of the way people are. The same goes for capitalism however. As soon as it becomes more extreme it comes at a cost for other people. So ideally we would have a capitalist system with companies that actually have a strong sense of morals and borders and not just maximize what they are allowed simply because they can and everybody else does it. So there it is. Agree or disagree, I don't want to tell anybody what they should believe or think, but this is where I stand on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 In my opinion, yes, its like 80-90% gambling. You don't win real money, but you want certain contents without the guarantee of getting them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said: > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > Why does this really matter? If you, personally, like to "gamble" with BLC then do so. If you don't, then don't. How does another player's decision to "gamble" or not affect you? > > Someone's decision to purchase something that effects the game economy does effect others, thanks to Anet making it every player's business that these lock boxes are integrated into the game through the economy. The problem is that you didn't come to that realization when you structured this thought. No need to toss an insult at the end of your argument. It only serves to weaken your point. I'm sure that ANet is very much aware of the game's economy and whatever impact the BLC has on it. Since GW2 isn't P2W, the impact to the individual player is, IN MY OPINION, probably quite small if any at all. Unfortunately, as we don't have the actual data to either support or refute this point, neither of us have any way of knowing. You could, if you wanted, give us real facts on how other players decisions to open BLC or not open BLC affects you, personally. That would help bolster your side of the argument and, if proven correct, I would be one of the first to congratulate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said: > > > > Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle? > > > If they are officially gambling or legally gambling is a very interesting question at the moment. Officially in most countries they are not, but I ascribe that purely to the fact that when these laws were passed this sort of thing either didn't exist yet or was unknown to the lawmakers. That is changing now, particularly in the EU with Belgium and the Netherlands at the forefront. They are already making a point with some games from EA and 2K and some of their stuff has already been forbidden as it has been ruled gambling. This includes cosmetics by the way. > > > > > > If you take the legal things aside however the black lion chests most certainly use the same principles that gambling does and it does have the ability to push people with more addictive personalities to spend and overspend. Sure you can earn some in game but that's not nearly enough to keep up and get some of those really rare items. Currently there is the Exalted Shoulders item that is a clear example of pushing gambling behavior since it's a random rare drop and it's account bound. That's about as bad as it gets with regards to these chests. > > > > > > To be honest, the government agencies that regulate gambling in the EU have gotten together and are meeting regularly to come up with some EU wide policies and once they do I think GW2 will have to change some things as well, because it's pretty clear that the BLC's aren't any different from lootboxes. And the fact that you can earn some keys via gameplay is a poor excuse because you'll never be able to generate enough keys to get certain items unless you are extremely lucky. > > > > > > There are some mitigating factors when it comes to ArenaNet. They're not as bad as many other games but also that doesn't really excuse this. It's a predatory form of revenue generation and it's only because it was under the radar of the governments who simply were unaware of this that it's become normalized. I think it's good that there has been a lot of anger about it since BF2, but all in all you have to wonder at things costing 10-20 bucks per item in a game you pay 60 bucks for. It clearly is overpriced. And I do have understanding for people who simply want to support the game and put extra money into it, but I think RNG items like this are of the devil. I tried BLC's and my conclusion is that yes they are lootboxes and once regulations are in place they will have to change. Sadly it will likely take laws because companies do not have the moral will to self-regulate. And that's where ArenaNet are no different than the rest. They may have convinced themselves that their cash shop is pretty fair but it's just not as bad as some other games. > > > > > > Personally, I accept that this is what the current status is of things but I find myself increasingly stepping away from games that monetize like this. The new Anthem game that comes out in a few weeks is shaping up to have the same type of issues so I won't buy it if that ends up being the case. And well, I do understand running costs for ArenaNet so a little bit here or there I find acceptable to spend. But I also see the problem for people who have a hard time braking themselves in that. Addictive personalities are something that you get genetically. It's not a choice or a willpower thing. And especially in a teen rated game, I will be happy to see RNG rewards disappearing entirely from anything you can spend real money on. But also things like promotions where certain items are only available for short times and not knowing when they will come back are part of a very nefarious system of money making. It's manipulative and preys on weaknesses that people may have. When ArenaNet staff read this (if indeed they do) they might find my wording harsh or confrontational, but the reality is there. What I say is true, but because it's become common practice, it gives people the idea it's normal and okay. Well it's not. > > > > > > And it's because companies are too greedy to self-regulate, that laws are coming, at least in the EU and some countries already have them. Because the truth is that kids who learn these addictive patterns are bad for the economy as a whole and because when it is considered gambling then of course the tax man wants his cut as well. I think it's fair to be a little bit milder towards ArenaNet but the bottom line is that their cash shop does use manipulative methods to increase sales and these methods do unfortunately exploit particularly people who are susceptible to this. At least with direct sales you know what you're getting, with RNG, you have no idea whether you'll get it at all. And finally, the point that a lot of stuff is cosmetic doesn't change anything. That's a weird idea that a lot of people have. This game is called Dress up Wars or whatever for a reason. Cosmetics are a big deal and that's what they're taking advantage of. But I do think the gaming industry as a whole has simply not been able to self-regulate. So as much as I prefer fewer regulations in general, this is clearly a situation where they will only have themselves to thank for them. > > > > > > I would really like ArenaNet to pull RNG from their gem store. I'd be the right thing to do. RNG can exist in the game but not in a cash shop. From a moral or ethical point of view you can't really defend them, particularly in a game rated for minors and they should be classed as gambling. That's my take on it at least. Anyone is free to have their views of course. > > > > What makes them predatory? > > > > The fact that it insentives to spent more money? > > > > The fact that it might generate an addiction? > > > > Something else? > > What makes it predatory is the following. First of all it exploits an known character flaw described as addictive personalities. Now there are discussions whether or not this is a personality issue but whatever you call it there are many people who are not able to resists certain behaviors or triggers and exploiting this makes it predatory. Also do mind that this is not limited to GW2 or gaming. Even social media with their 'like" systems trigger addictive behavior and just look at how many people can't do without their phone for a day or even an hour. This is essentially unhealthy behavior and it's targeted directly by companies knowingly or not, but by now they should know. > > The other thing is that it's something that children or teens if you prefer are exposed to because it's a teen rated game. Teens are in an age group where important developments happen with regards to the development of the brain. That's why some things like gambling are not allowed for minors because it can normalize behaviors that are not desirable and children are more easily affected, no matter how rebellious they think they are. I think I can assume that people agree that children should be taught good behaviors so that as an adult they are able to manage life as it is. Pushing addictive behaviors and exploiting them in a way the gaming industry does has already done a lot of damage in normalizing this. That's why a lot of people just shrug and don't see the problem. That's not because there is no problem, but because people have been desensitized to it so they do not recognize it anymore. > > Predatory means that you prey on people's weaknesses, you exploit them for personal gain. Between children who are developing their brains and life behaviors and people who are more susceptible to that. The effect is also strongly enhanced by the cost of these items. Black Lion keys cost for example 2100 gems for 25 of them. That is roughly 26 euros. If they use the same dollar amounts as euros then it would be 26 dollars. So it's over a dollar/euro a key. But the gem shop is full of things that are there to entice with limited time sales and promotions happening constantly. So essentially GW2 create a place where tens or hundreds of thousands of people come by and within that space have their monopoly in the only shop in town. There is a reason why in the real world there are laws against monopolies and cartels. The truth is that people haven't thought through what is actually happening here. They can set prices as they want and they only have to look at a handful of competitors to see what sort of prices people generally accept, but it's easy to spend 50-100 bucks a month in a cash shop or more. And the actual value of what you get is not even close to that. > > Listen, when ArenaNet is said to be less predatory than for example EA, I do agree, but it doesn't make them saints. And businesses will generally stay within the law but only just. They do not think about ethics beyond looking at what is everybody else doing and how do we position ourselves with that. I think though that if you take it out of that context and say is it really ok to charge 10 or 20 bucks for an outfit when the game itself costs 50 bucks, I think it's not. So the problem is much bigger than just gaming and I'm certainly not saying that ArenaNet are doing something unusual in the world as we know it today. But as law makers are becoming aware of what's going on with loot boxes in particular, we see that there is an instant reaction of shock and a desire to curb it. That alone should tell people something. > > There is still a large difference between doing nothing illegal and being ethical. And it's that difference and the inability of companies in general to be more ethical that triggers new laws and regulations. And so I expect that it will not stay with Belgium and the Netherlands. In fact there is a lot more going on and studies done in Austria already show a correlation between kids growing up with loot box spending and poor decision making as an adult when it comes to financial decisions in particular. And that should come as no surprise to anyone. > > To think that something is not a problem just because it doesn't affect you or you think that it doesn't affect you is not a useful argument. Not everyone is created equal and to keep a society healthy there needs to be a level of stability and predatory practices destabilize people's lives. It's also worth noting that when you turn 18 and are officially an adult that suddenly you are a different person with different coping skills and personality traits. So being an adult is no protection by itself. > > I mean we could choose to accept a free for all market and let everybody do everything they want but even now with government regulations the excesses are terrifying. The fact that for example 75% of prescription drugs in the world are prescribed in the USA alone should indicate to anyone what happens when capitalism has little to no brakes. Doctors getting paid by companies to prescribe unnecessary drugs, the amounts of sugar in supermarket food etc. are all examples of a world gone wrong. > > So it's no surprise that it normalizes a lot of things in our world today. That's also why I don't flat out call ArenaNet evil or say that they are willfully using predatory practices but I think it's important that they hear from people that some of the things they do are in fact predatory and unethical. > > Now when people have a different view on that, that's ok. It is a free world after a fashion. But I suspect that when people disagree with what I'm saying they will probably have a very different set of ethics from mine. I think we're in this world together. None of us chose to be here, that choice was made by at least one of our parents but certainly not by ourselves. And were are born into this world with all kinds of defects and disabilities, some more visible than others. Also with different skill sets. I mean I'm sure that if the only way you could get rich was by playing chess this would make a lot of rich people of today poor and vice versa. But in my view excessive gains always come at the cost of other people. That's why I do not support economic systems that exploit and prey on people. We saw that for example communism failed as a system and it will always fail because of the way people are. The same goes for capitalism however. As soon as it becomes more extreme it comes at a cost for other people. So ideally we would have a capitalist system with companies that actually have a strong sense of morals and borders and not just maximize what they are allowed simply because they can and everybody else does it. > > So there it is. Agree or disagree, I don't want to tell anybody what they should believe or think, but this is where I stand on the topic. > I'm personally more annoyed that in general people call lootboxes predatory while sales are okay while they both exist to exploit the human condition. Their is this bias which originates from the fact that people are less likely to feel bad after a sale. Which makes it even more interesting to me that people keep gambling even In my opinion it's only the teen thing which is a problem. Of course thats something we can debate over. On a sidenote wouldn't a communistic system where people where moral be equally well as this capitalistic system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > In my opinion, yes, its like 80-90% gambling. > You don't win real money, but you want certain contents without the guarantee of getting them Coincidentally, 10-20% of the value is probably what the average players gets back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said: > > > > > Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle? > > > > If they are officially gambling or legally gambling is a very interesting question at the moment. Officially in most countries they are not, but I ascribe that purely to the fact that when these laws were passed this sort of thing either didn't exist yet or was unknown to the lawmakers. That is changing now, particularly in the EU with Belgium and the Netherlands at the forefront. They are already making a point with some games from EA and 2K and some of their stuff has already been forbidden as it has been ruled gambling. This includes cosmetics by the way. > > > > > > > > If you take the legal things aside however the black lion chests most certainly use the same principles that gambling does and it does have the ability to push people with more addictive personalities to spend and overspend. Sure you can earn some in game but that's not nearly enough to keep up and get some of those really rare items. Currently there is the Exalted Shoulders item that is a clear example of pushing gambling behavior since it's a random rare drop and it's account bound. That's about as bad as it gets with regards to these chests. > > > > > > > > To be honest, the government agencies that regulate gambling in the EU have gotten together and are meeting regularly to come up with some EU wide policies and once they do I think GW2 will have to change some things as well, because it's pretty clear that the BLC's aren't any different from lootboxes. And the fact that you can earn some keys via gameplay is a poor excuse because you'll never be able to generate enough keys to get certain items unless you are extremely lucky. > > > > > > > > There are some mitigating factors when it comes to ArenaNet. They're not as bad as many other games but also that doesn't really excuse this. It's a predatory form of revenue generation and it's only because it was under the radar of the governments who simply were unaware of this that it's become normalized. I think it's good that there has been a lot of anger about it since BF2, but all in all you have to wonder at things costing 10-20 bucks per item in a game you pay 60 bucks for. It clearly is overpriced. And I do have understanding for people who simply want to support the game and put extra money into it, but I think RNG items like this are of the devil. I tried BLC's and my conclusion is that yes they are lootboxes and once regulations are in place they will have to change. Sadly it will likely take laws because companies do not have the moral will to self-regulate. And that's where ArenaNet are no different than the rest. They may have convinced themselves that their cash shop is pretty fair but it's just not as bad as some other games. > > > > > > > > Personally, I accept that this is what the current status is of things but I find myself increasingly stepping away from games that monetize like this. The new Anthem game that comes out in a few weeks is shaping up to have the same type of issues so I won't buy it if that ends up being the case. And well, I do understand running costs for ArenaNet so a little bit here or there I find acceptable to spend. But I also see the problem for people who have a hard time braking themselves in that. Addictive personalities are something that you get genetically. It's not a choice or a willpower thing. And especially in a teen rated game, I will be happy to see RNG rewards disappearing entirely from anything you can spend real money on. But also things like promotions where certain items are only available for short times and not knowing when they will come back are part of a very nefarious system of money making. It's manipulative and preys on weaknesses that people may have. When ArenaNet staff read this (if indeed they do) they might find my wording harsh or confrontational, but the reality is there. What I say is true, but because it's become common practice, it gives people the idea it's normal and okay. Well it's not. > > > > > > > > And it's because companies are too greedy to self-regulate, that laws are coming, at least in the EU and some countries already have them. Because the truth is that kids who learn these addictive patterns are bad for the economy as a whole and because when it is considered gambling then of course the tax man wants his cut as well. I think it's fair to be a little bit milder towards ArenaNet but the bottom line is that their cash shop does use manipulative methods to increase sales and these methods do unfortunately exploit particularly people who are susceptible to this. At least with direct sales you know what you're getting, with RNG, you have no idea whether you'll get it at all. And finally, the point that a lot of stuff is cosmetic doesn't change anything. That's a weird idea that a lot of people have. This game is called Dress up Wars or whatever for a reason. Cosmetics are a big deal and that's what they're taking advantage of. But I do think the gaming industry as a whole has simply not been able to self-regulate. So as much as I prefer fewer regulations in general, this is clearly a situation where they will only have themselves to thank for them. > > > > > > > > I would really like ArenaNet to pull RNG from their gem store. I'd be the right thing to do. RNG can exist in the game but not in a cash shop. From a moral or ethical point of view you can't really defend them, particularly in a game rated for minors and they should be classed as gambling. That's my take on it at least. Anyone is free to have their views of course. > > > > > > What makes them predatory? > > > > > > The fact that it insentives to spent more money? > > > > > > The fact that it might generate an addiction? > > > > > > Something else? > > > > What makes it predatory is the following. First of all it exploits an known character flaw described as addictive personalities. Now there are discussions whether or not this is a personality issue but whatever you call it there are many people who are not able to resists certain behaviors or triggers and exploiting this makes it predatory. Also do mind that this is not limited to GW2 or gaming. Even social media with their 'like" systems trigger addictive behavior and just look at how many people can't do without their phone for a day or even an hour. This is essentially unhealthy behavior and it's targeted directly by companies knowingly or not, but by now they should know. > > > > The other thing is that it's something that children or teens if you prefer are exposed to because it's a teen rated game. Teens are in an age group where important developments happen with regards to the development of the brain. That's why some things like gambling are not allowed for minors because it can normalize behaviors that are not desirable and children are more easily affected, no matter how rebellious they think they are. I think I can assume that people agree that children should be taught good behaviors so that as an adult they are able to manage life as it is. Pushing addictive behaviors and exploiting them in a way the gaming industry does has already done a lot of damage in normalizing this. That's why a lot of people just shrug and don't see the problem. That's not because there is no problem, but because people have been desensitized to it so they do not recognize it anymore. > > > > Predatory means that you prey on people's weaknesses, you exploit them for personal gain. Between children who are developing their brains and life behaviors and people who are more susceptible to that. The effect is also strongly enhanced by the cost of these items. Black Lion keys cost for example 2100 gems for 25 of them. That is roughly 26 euros. If they use the same dollar amounts as euros then it would be 26 dollars. So it's over a dollar/euro a key. But the gem shop is full of things that are there to entice with limited time sales and promotions happening constantly. So essentially GW2 create a place where tens or hundreds of thousands of people come by and within that space have their monopoly in the only shop in town. There is a reason why in the real world there are laws against monopolies and cartels. The truth is that people haven't thought through what is actually happening here. They can set prices as they want and they only have to look at a handful of competitors to see what sort of prices people generally accept, but it's easy to spend 50-100 bucks a month in a cash shop or more. And the actual value of what you get is not even close to that. > > > > Listen, when ArenaNet is said to be less predatory than for example EA, I do agree, but it doesn't make them saints. And businesses will generally stay within the law but only just. They do not think about ethics beyond looking at what is everybody else doing and how do we position ourselves with that. I think though that if you take it out of that context and say is it really ok to charge 10 or 20 bucks for an outfit when the game itself costs 50 bucks, I think it's not. So the problem is much bigger than just gaming and I'm certainly not saying that ArenaNet are doing something unusual in the world as we know it today. But as law makers are becoming aware of what's going on with loot boxes in particular, we see that there is an instant reaction of shock and a desire to curb it. That alone should tell people something. > > > > There is still a large difference between doing nothing illegal and being ethical. And it's that difference and the inability of companies in general to be more ethical that triggers new laws and regulations. And so I expect that it will not stay with Belgium and the Netherlands. In fact there is a lot more going on and studies done in Austria already show a correlation between kids growing up with loot box spending and poor decision making as an adult when it comes to financial decisions in particular. And that should come as no surprise to anyone. > > > > To think that something is not a problem just because it doesn't affect you or you think that it doesn't affect you is not a useful argument. Not everyone is created equal and to keep a society healthy there needs to be a level of stability and predatory practices destabilize people's lives. It's also worth noting that when you turn 18 and are officially an adult that suddenly you are a different person with different coping skills and personality traits. So being an adult is no protection by itself. > > > > I mean we could choose to accept a free for all market and let everybody do everything they want but even now with government regulations the excesses are terrifying. The fact that for example 75% of prescription drugs in the world are prescribed in the USA alone should indicate to anyone what happens when capitalism has little to no brakes. Doctors getting paid by companies to prescribe unnecessary drugs, the amounts of sugar in supermarket food etc. are all examples of a world gone wrong. > > > > So it's no surprise that it normalizes a lot of things in our world today. That's also why I don't flat out call ArenaNet evil or say that they are willfully using predatory practices but I think it's important that they hear from people that some of the things they do are in fact predatory and unethical. > > > > Now when people have a different view on that, that's ok. It is a free world after a fashion. But I suspect that when people disagree with what I'm saying they will probably have a very different set of ethics from mine. I think we're in this world together. None of us chose to be here, that choice was made by at least one of our parents but certainly not by ourselves. And were are born into this world with all kinds of defects and disabilities, some more visible than others. Also with different skill sets. I mean I'm sure that if the only way you could get rich was by playing chess this would make a lot of rich people of today poor and vice versa. But in my view excessive gains always come at the cost of other people. That's why I do not support economic systems that exploit and prey on people. We saw that for example communism failed as a system and it will always fail because of the way people are. The same goes for capitalism however. As soon as it becomes more extreme it comes at a cost for other people. So ideally we would have a capitalist system with companies that actually have a strong sense of morals and borders and not just maximize what they are allowed simply because they can and everybody else does it. > > > > So there it is. Agree or disagree, I don't want to tell anybody what they should believe or think, but this is where I stand on the topic. > > > > I'm personally more annoyed that in general people call lootboxes predatory while sales are okay while they both exist to exploit the human condition. Their is this bias which originates from the fact that people are less likely to feel bad after a sale. Which makes it even more interesting to me that people keep gambling even It's all part of the bigger problem. You're not wrong about the sales because it is annoying. I also really hate marketing and advertising because they essentially lie or tell half-truths or say things that cannot be proven as if they were factual. And because there is so much of it people get used to it and stop questioning it. There is so much bs and I think, without wanting to go into detail, the infamous manifesto video is an example of not advertising what you're actually bringing out. > In my opinion it's only the teen thing which is a problem. Of course thats something we can debate over. That's fair enough but why is it bad for a 17 year old but not someone who's 18? It's just an arbitrary number really. When is a person really an adult. I do agree it's the most urgent issue though. > On a sidenote wouldn't a communistic system where people where moral be equally well as this capitalistic system? In theory yes. The problem is humans. We have to assume that nobody is perfect and not everybody is going to play along. This is why it is my view that the dangers are in the extremes more than the specific system. Within communist countries we saw that there were still classes and people going hungry. We also saw production drop down and people only doing what they were told just like machines. So something definitely didn't work out there. People do need to be stimulated. However, in the western world and the US in particular there are excesses. Companies with a lack of morals and too much power, even political power. And they use this power to become even richer and more powerful and don't care who it hurts. So yeah, I do believe a free market is a good thing but I also see the need to curb people and companies and I also feel that certain basics should be provided for. In other words, when you see the rise of the number of people who do have jobs but can't pay their basic bills, something must be going wrong. Without wanting to become too political or philosophical though, we live in strange times but people have probably felt that way throughout our existence. In the end I just wish that people cared a bit more about others and about the consequences of their actions. That would probably make this world a lot more pleasant to live in. Tricking people into spending too much money for things that do not equate in value to the asking price doesn't fit within that. And if you have direct sales then at least you can say ok, I'll buy that. But RNG and premium currencies are tricks that serve only to make people overspend. Ask yourself why we have to buy gems to buy items in the gem store.... why are these prices not in dollars or euros? Because this way you spend more because they disconnected the real money from the items your purchase. It's all psychology and these cash shop specialists are basically the devil. They design all these things just to make people spend more than they should and then put the responsibility back on the individual saying "well you don't have to buy this, it's optional". Yeah that's not really fair play in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplethoraof.2643 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Pifil.5193" said: > That would depend on the definition of gambling in whatever jurisdiction you're in. It's not considered gambling in most. > > The main difference is that you can win money from slot machines. You cannot win money from black lion chests. According to the Dutch gaming authority, if the items are: One) Determined by chance and Two) Able to be traded outside the game (thus, having market value). Then it is considered gambling, at least in the current EU countries who are putting regulations on loot boxes in games. It then falls under those same regulations under the Betting and Gaming Act. While that specific act and the Dutch gaming authority are based in the Netherlands, other EU countries are following suit and apparently NA countries might do the same (as a gamer, I really hope they do curb the loot-box plague). While a handful of the less rare items are account bound, there are many items that are NOT account bound. Thus, they are able to be traded outside of the game. I'd say there is a good chance that GW2's black lion chests would be considered gambling amid these new regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizler.8192 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools But that's the way I like it baby I don't wanna live for ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said: > > > > > > Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle? > > > > > If they are officially gambling or legally gambling is a very interesting question at the moment. Officially in most countries they are not, but I ascribe that purely to the fact that when these laws were passed this sort of thing either didn't exist yet or was unknown to the lawmakers. That is changing now, particularly in the EU with Belgium and the Netherlands at the forefront. They are already making a point with some games from EA and 2K and some of their stuff has already been forbidden as it has been ruled gambling. This includes cosmetics by the way. > > > > > > > > > > If you take the legal things aside however the black lion chests most certainly use the same principles that gambling does and it does have the ability to push people with more addictive personalities to spend and overspend. Sure you can earn some in game but that's not nearly enough to keep up and get some of those really rare items. Currently there is the Exalted Shoulders item that is a clear example of pushing gambling behavior since it's a random rare drop and it's account bound. That's about as bad as it gets with regards to these chests. > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, the government agencies that regulate gambling in the EU have gotten together and are meeting regularly to come up with some EU wide policies and once they do I think GW2 will have to change some things as well, because it's pretty clear that the BLC's aren't any different from lootboxes. And the fact that you can earn some keys via gameplay is a poor excuse because you'll never be able to generate enough keys to get certain items unless you are extremely lucky. > > > > > > > > > > There are some mitigating factors when it comes to ArenaNet. They're not as bad as many other games but also that doesn't really excuse this. It's a predatory form of revenue generation and it's only because it was under the radar of the governments who simply were unaware of this that it's become normalized. I think it's good that there has been a lot of anger about it since BF2, but all in all you have to wonder at things costing 10-20 bucks per item in a game you pay 60 bucks for. It clearly is overpriced. And I do have understanding for people who simply want to support the game and put extra money into it, but I think RNG items like this are of the devil. I tried BLC's and my conclusion is that yes they are lootboxes and once regulations are in place they will have to change. Sadly it will likely take laws because companies do not have the moral will to self-regulate. And that's where ArenaNet are no different than the rest. They may have convinced themselves that their cash shop is pretty fair but it's just not as bad as some other games. > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I accept that this is what the current status is of things but I find myself increasingly stepping away from games that monetize like this. The new Anthem game that comes out in a few weeks is shaping up to have the same type of issues so I won't buy it if that ends up being the case. And well, I do understand running costs for ArenaNet so a little bit here or there I find acceptable to spend. But I also see the problem for people who have a hard time braking themselves in that. Addictive personalities are something that you get genetically. It's not a choice or a willpower thing. And especially in a teen rated game, I will be happy to see RNG rewards disappearing entirely from anything you can spend real money on. But also things like promotions where certain items are only available for short times and not knowing when they will come back are part of a very nefarious system of money making. It's manipulative and preys on weaknesses that people may have. When ArenaNet staff read this (if indeed they do) they might find my wording harsh or confrontational, but the reality is there. What I say is true, but because it's become common practice, it gives people the idea it's normal and okay. Well it's not. > > > > > > > > > > And it's because companies are too greedy to self-regulate, that laws are coming, at least in the EU and some countries already have them. Because the truth is that kids who learn these addictive patterns are bad for the economy as a whole and because when it is considered gambling then of course the tax man wants his cut as well. I think it's fair to be a little bit milder towards ArenaNet but the bottom line is that their cash shop does use manipulative methods to increase sales and these methods do unfortunately exploit particularly people who are susceptible to this. At least with direct sales you know what you're getting, with RNG, you have no idea whether you'll get it at all. And finally, the point that a lot of stuff is cosmetic doesn't change anything. That's a weird idea that a lot of people have. This game is called Dress up Wars or whatever for a reason. Cosmetics are a big deal and that's what they're taking advantage of. But I do think the gaming industry as a whole has simply not been able to self-regulate. So as much as I prefer fewer regulations in general, this is clearly a situation where they will only have themselves to thank for them. > > > > > > > > > > I would really like ArenaNet to pull RNG from their gem store. I'd be the right thing to do. RNG can exist in the game but not in a cash shop. From a moral or ethical point of view you can't really defend them, particularly in a game rated for minors and they should be classed as gambling. That's my take on it at least. Anyone is free to have their views of course. > > > > > > > > What makes them predatory? > > > > > > > > The fact that it insentives to spent more money? > > > > > > > > The fact that it might generate an addiction? > > > > > > > > Something else? > > > > > > What makes it predatory is the following. First of all it exploits an known character flaw described as addictive personalities. Now there are discussions whether or not this is a personality issue but whatever you call it there are many people who are not able to resists certain behaviors or triggers and exploiting this makes it predatory. Also do mind that this is not limited to GW2 or gaming. Even social media with their 'like" systems trigger addictive behavior and just look at how many people can't do without their phone for a day or even an hour. This is essentially unhealthy behavior and it's targeted directly by companies knowingly or not, but by now they should know. > > > > > > The other thing is that it's something that children or teens if you prefer are exposed to because it's a teen rated game. Teens are in an age group where important developments happen with regards to the development of the brain. That's why some things like gambling are not allowed for minors because it can normalize behaviors that are not desirable and children are more easily affected, no matter how rebellious they think they are. I think I can assume that people agree that children should be taught good behaviors so that as an adult they are able to manage life as it is. Pushing addictive behaviors and exploiting them in a way the gaming industry does has already done a lot of damage in normalizing this. That's why a lot of people just shrug and don't see the problem. That's not because there is no problem, but because people have been desensitized to it so they do not recognize it anymore. > > > > > > Predatory means that you prey on people's weaknesses, you exploit them for personal gain. Between children who are developing their brains and life behaviors and people who are more susceptible to that. The effect is also strongly enhanced by the cost of these items. Black Lion keys cost for example 2100 gems for 25 of them. That is roughly 26 euros. If they use the same dollar amounts as euros then it would be 26 dollars. So it's over a dollar/euro a key. But the gem shop is full of things that are there to entice with limited time sales and promotions happening constantly. So essentially GW2 create a place where tens or hundreds of thousands of people come by and within that space have their monopoly in the only shop in town. There is a reason why in the real world there are laws against monopolies and cartels. The truth is that people haven't thought through what is actually happening here. They can set prices as they want and they only have to look at a handful of competitors to see what sort of prices people generally accept, but it's easy to spend 50-100 bucks a month in a cash shop or more. And the actual value of what you get is not even close to that. > > > > > > Listen, when ArenaNet is said to be less predatory than for example EA, I do agree, but it doesn't make them saints. And businesses will generally stay within the law but only just. They do not think about ethics beyond looking at what is everybody else doing and how do we position ourselves with that. I think though that if you take it out of that context and say is it really ok to charge 10 or 20 bucks for an outfit when the game itself costs 50 bucks, I think it's not. So the problem is much bigger than just gaming and I'm certainly not saying that ArenaNet are doing something unusual in the world as we know it today. But as law makers are becoming aware of what's going on with loot boxes in particular, we see that there is an instant reaction of shock and a desire to curb it. That alone should tell people something. > > > > > > There is still a large difference between doing nothing illegal and being ethical. And it's that difference and the inability of companies in general to be more ethical that triggers new laws and regulations. And so I expect that it will not stay with Belgium and the Netherlands. In fact there is a lot more going on and studies done in Austria already show a correlation between kids growing up with loot box spending and poor decision making as an adult when it comes to financial decisions in particular. And that should come as no surprise to anyone. > > > > > > To think that something is not a problem just because it doesn't affect you or you think that it doesn't affect you is not a useful argument. Not everyone is created equal and to keep a society healthy there needs to be a level of stability and predatory practices destabilize people's lives. It's also worth noting that when you turn 18 and are officially an adult that suddenly you are a different person with different coping skills and personality traits. So being an adult is no protection by itself. > > > > > > I mean we could choose to accept a free for all market and let everybody do everything they want but even now with government regulations the excesses are terrifying. The fact that for example 75% of prescription drugs in the world are prescribed in the USA alone should indicate to anyone what happens when capitalism has little to no brakes. Doctors getting paid by companies to prescribe unnecessary drugs, the amounts of sugar in supermarket food etc. are all examples of a world gone wrong. > > > > > > So it's no surprise that it normalizes a lot of things in our world today. That's also why I don't flat out call ArenaNet evil or say that they are willfully using predatory practices but I think it's important that they hear from people that some of the things they do are in fact predatory and unethical. > > > > > > Now when people have a different view on that, that's ok. It is a free world after a fashion. But I suspect that when people disagree with what I'm saying they will probably have a very different set of ethics from mine. I think we're in this world together. None of us chose to be here, that choice was made by at least one of our parents but certainly not by ourselves. And were are born into this world with all kinds of defects and disabilities, some more visible than others. Also with different skill sets. I mean I'm sure that if the only way you could get rich was by playing chess this would make a lot of rich people of today poor and vice versa. But in my view excessive gains always come at the cost of other people. That's why I do not support economic systems that exploit and prey on people. We saw that for example communism failed as a system and it will always fail because of the way people are. The same goes for capitalism however. As soon as it becomes more extreme it comes at a cost for other people. So ideally we would have a capitalist system with companies that actually have a strong sense of morals and borders and not just maximize what they are allowed simply because they can and everybody else does it. > > > > > > So there it is. Agree or disagree, I don't want to tell anybody what they should believe or think, but this is where I stand on the topic. > > > > > > > I'm personally more annoyed that in general people call lootboxes predatory while sales are okay while they both exist to exploit the human condition. Their is this bias which originates from the fact that people are less likely to feel bad after a sale. Which makes it even more interesting to me that people keep gambling even > It's all part of the bigger problem. You're not wrong about the sales because it is annoying. I also really hate marketing and advertising because they essentially lie or tell half-truths or say things that cannot be proven as if they were factual. And because there is so much of it people get used to it and stop questioning it. There is so much bs and I think, without wanting to go into detail, the infamous manifesto video is an example of not advertising what you're actually bringing out. > > In my opinion it's only the teen thing which is a problem. Of course thats something we can debate over. > That's fair enough but why is it bad for a 17 year old but not someone who's 18? It's just an arbitrary number really. When is a person really an adult. I do agree it's the most urgent issue though. Their has been research done than the brain normally finishes growing at 23 so that would be a sensible age in that regard > > On a sidenote wouldn't a communistic system where people where moral be equally well as this capitalistic system? > In theory yes. The problem is humans. We have to assume that nobody is perfect and not everybody is going to play along. This is why it is my view that the dangers are in the extremes more than the specific system. Within communist countries we saw that there were still classes and people going hungry. We also saw production drop down and people only doing what they were told just like machines. So something definitely didn't work out there. People do need to be stimulated. However, in the western world and the US in particular there are excesses. Companies with a lack of morals and too much power, even political power. And they use this power to become even richer and more powerful and don't care who it hurts. So yeah, I do believe a free market is a good thing but I also see the need to curb people and companies and I also feel that certain basics should be provided for. In other words, when you see the rise of the number of people who do have jobs but can't pay their basic bills, something must be going wrong. Without wanting to become too political or philosophical though, we live in strange times but people have probably felt that way throughout our existence. In the end I just wish that people cared a bit more about others and about the consequences of their actions. That would probably make this world a lot more pleasant to live in. Tricking people into spending too much money for things that do not equate in value to the asking price doesn't fit within that. And if you have direct sales then at least you can say ok, I'll buy that. But RNG and premium currencies are tricks that serve only to make people overspend. Ask yourself why we have to buy gems to buy items in the gem store.... why are these prices not in dollars or euros? Because this way you spend more because they disconnected the real money from the items your purchase. It's all psychology and these cash shop specialists are basically the devil. They design all these things just to make people spend more than they should and then put the responsibility back on the individual saying "well you don't have to buy this, it's optional". Yeah that's not really fair play in my book. > The only problem with you're viewpoint is that it's sort of circular. The borders you imply are only you're borders. Theirs nothing more inherintly better to slightly moved borders. I wonder if the better solutions would be educating people on the weakness of the mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now