so why no player to player trading?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >snips

> geez lol youre being incredibly condescending. if you disagree that's fine, there are ofc various reasons why p2p doesn't work out as well as a trading post.

 

I don't get it ... you wanted to know why ... people gave you answers ... you proceeded to 'address' all the answers you were given. It seems like this thread is just a thinly veiled attempt to complain about the lack of p2p trading.

 

If that's the case, then it's quite irrelevant what's good, bad, wrong or right about the lack of p2p trading. The relevant question in this case is what are the cost vs. benefits to adding it.

[kharmin.7683]

If a player is not looking to scam someone, and is not looking to turn a strong profit, then the market already has prices set for items so there would not be a need for direct player to player trading.

 

If player A wants item X, then player A need only look to the market and if player A accepts the price, then player A can purchase item X.

 

If player B wants to sell item X, then player B need only list the item in the market at a price that the market will bear.

 

As I see it, the current system works for both players. I don't understand the need for direct trading?

[mauried.5608]

One problem p2p solves is it allows players to buy items that arnt for sale on the TP.

Not everthing thats sellable is always available on the TP.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> One problem p2p solves is it allows players to buy items that arnt for sale on the TP.

> Not everthing thats sellable is always available on the TP.

>

 

What items would those be? The only items I can think of would be

* A limited number of infusions, but that's because the demand far exceeds the in-game supply.

* Items that stopped dropping, but those have counterparts that drop, so not a real issue.

* Relatively new items, but those will become available

 

Regardless, I am always able to put in an offer for any item and eventually it will be fulfilled. I can't think of any example in which the obstacle was other than my being unwilling to pay more.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> One problem p2p solves is it allows players to buy items that arnt for sale on the TP.

> Not everthing thats sellable is always available on the TP.

>

 

That’s an interesting observation. What items that ‘are sellable but aren’t always available’ on a world wide trading post used by every player in the game that you’re more likely to find in trade chat in a random city on one server at a random time of the day where the buyer and seller both need to be present at the same time?

 

[Etria.3642]

Aside from selling something for more than the tp allows the other reason would be to avoid the listing price.

 

Say I want to sell Twilight. I have only 53 gold on hand. I could NOT currently list it at a price I would sell it for.

 

But I happen to agree that the gold tax IS necessary.

 

Or of course I suppose someone who WANTS to scam would want one too.

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> Games have a massive gold inflow and they need equivalent massive gold sinks. A game without sufficient gold sinks will inevitably have its gold become worthless, its prices inflate and new players unable to buy needed items as veteran players amass millions of gold. This is one of the most important functions of the trading post, to act as one of the main gold sinks. Adding p2p trading means that this important gold sink will be bypassed. It’s more important to keep the economy stable than to allow players to bypass a major gold sink for player important reasons.

 

that's pretty helpful thanks. are you familiar with gw1? didn't that game handle the p2p trading alright, or no? as I recall back in the day weapon upgrades were a couple of plat each, that's a little high for some one brand new but kinda easy to farm ya know?

 

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > One problem p2p solves is it allows players to buy items that arnt for sale on the TP.

> > Not everthing thats sellable is always available on the TP.

> >

>

> That’s an interesting observation. What items that ‘are sellable but aren’t always available’ on a world wide trading post used by every player in the game that you’re more likely to find in trade chat in a random city on one server at a random time of the day where the buyer and seller both need to be present at the same time?

>

 

it would make selling things like pvp/wvw potions for guild hall upgrades a lot easier. or silverwastes shovels. le shiver.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > >snips

> > geez lol youre being incredibly condescending. if you disagree that's fine, there are ofc various reasons why p2p doesn't work out as well as a trading post.

>

> I don't get it ... you wanted to know why ... people gave you answers ... you proceeded to 'address' all the answers you were given. It seems like this thread is just a thinly veiled attempt to complain about the lack of p2p trading.

>

> If that's the case, then it's quite irrelevant what's good, bad, wrong or right about the lack of p2p trading. The relevant question in this case is what are the cost vs. benefits to adding it.

 

well maybe my reply came off as arrogant, but all im trying to do is create dialogue here. sometimes via online communiques a bit gets lost in translation (aka im lazy) so its up to the reader to not twist their own jimmies.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > Games have a massive gold inflow and they need equivalent massive gold sinks. A game without sufficient gold sinks will inevitably have its gold become worthless, its prices inflate and new players unable to buy needed items as veteran players amass millions of gold. This is one of the most important functions of the trading post, to act as one of the main gold sinks. Adding p2p trading means that this important gold sink will be bypassed. It’s more important to keep the economy stable than to allow players to bypass a major gold sink for player important reasons.

>

> that's pretty helpful thanks. are you familiar with gw1? didn't that game handle the p2p trading alright, or no? as I recall back in the day weapon upgrades were a couple of plat each, that's a little high for some one brand new but kinda easy to farm ya know?

>

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > > One problem p2p solves is it allows players to buy items that arnt for sale on the TP.

> > > Not everthing thats sellable is always available on the TP.

> > >

> >

> > That’s an interesting observation. What items that ‘are sellable but aren’t always available’ on a world wide trading post used by every player in the game that you’re more likely to find in trade chat in a random city on one server at a random time of the day where the buyer and seller both need to be present at the same time?

> >

>

> **it would make selling things like pvp/wvw potions for guild hall upgrades a lot easier. or silverwastes shovels. le shiver.**

>

 

I thought of that, however just because something (the selling of guild hall upgrades to a guild by people who are not invested in that guild) is tolerated doesn’t mean that it’s something ANet wants to happen. More likely ANet wants guild members to work together to upgrade a guild with the guild members using all the games resources to do so. People selling upgrades is probably an unavoidable work around of what was intended, which means that even if ANet were to put in p2p trading, selling guild upgrades would not be one of the reasons for them to so so.

 

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > Games have a massive gold inflow and they need equivalent massive gold sinks. A game without sufficient gold sinks will inevitably have its gold become worthless, its prices inflate and new players unable to buy needed items as veteran players amass millions of gold. This is one of the most important functions of the trading post, to act as one of the main gold sinks. Adding p2p trading means that this important gold sink will be bypassed. It’s more important to keep the economy stable than to allow players to bypass a major gold sink for player important reasons.

>

> that's pretty helpful thanks. are you familiar with gw1? didn't that game handle the p2p trading alright, or no? as I recall back in the day weapon upgrades were a couple of plat each, that's a little high for some one brand new but kinda easy to farm ya know?

>

 

I wasn’t going to answer this at first because it’s been about 7 years and I’ve forgotten a lot but after thinking about it.

 

1) did it handle p2p trading alright?

I’d say no. Scamming was common by using similar item icons and by cheating on the amount of plat offered.

 

2)I recall back in the day weapon upgrades were a couple of plat each, that's a little high for some one brand new but kinda easy to farm ya know?

some upgrades were cheap. However some, especially the armor ones, were very expensive. All upgrades that I bought, I bought from a vendor which was a gold sink for that game. I’m sure some people did p2p trade but I don’t recall seeing upgrades advertised in chat very often.

 

3) there was a lack of price transparency, which meant it was hard to know what was a reasonable price and it was easy to scam or be scammed.

 

 

[ShiningSquirrel.3751]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> that's pretty helpful thanks. are you familiar with gw1? didn't that game handle the p2p trading alright, or no? as I recall back in the day weapon upgrades were a couple of plat each, that's a little high for some one brand new but kinda easy to farm ya know?

 

Actually, no it did not. There where many issues with the p2p trading in GW1. Scams where rampant, it was far to easy to cheat others on the trades. Those of us who where there from the beginning saw many scams come and go and many players cheated out of either large amounts of plat or high end items. The trading post in GW2 did away with all of the issues we had in GW1 trading.

 

 

[Gaile Gray.6029]

In short: We saw the risks and the costs to players in Player-to-Player deals gone bad. They existed in Guild Wars; they existed in many other games.

 

The development of the Trading Post was given a lot of thought and careful planning. The objective was to develop a system that allowed players to conduct transactions in a safe and secure manner.

 

Personal opinion: I wouldn't want us to go back. I've read the heart-wrenching appeals from scammed players and betrayed friends and guildies. I've seen the occasional gloat from someone who took advantage of others. Both convince me the TP is a very good, player-friendly system that benefits us all.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Not to mention the advantage of a lack of Spamadam. There's no way I would want to spend hours upon hours in the equivalent of Spamadam in GW2.

[otto.5684]

The BLN is robust enough that it renders player to player exchanges useless.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Not to mention the advantage of a lack of Spamadam. There's no way I would want to spend hours upon hours in the equivalent of Spamadam in GW2.

 

How could I forget that! Yes, map chat is a whoooole lot better without that nonsense. :dizzy:

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> ok I will attempt to address all answers.

>

> scamming - mousing over the item(s) in question to verify no same icon switcheroos will solve this. its the buyers prerogative to verify the contents.

> global economy at risk - unless the TP tax is being used to fund the defense of LA I fail to see what exactly the p2p option would do in terms of risk. we are talking about a video game here with fake moneys.

> equilibrium - every market has some degree of volatility. its normal. for example in gw1, ectos sell anywhere from 14-20 for 100k. people will sell what they think people will buy for, that's what its all about.

> chat spam - this is a non issue. obviously there would be a separate chat channel for wts/wtb people like there is in gw1.

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > It requires additional resources to deal with scammers. The TP helps avoiding that.

> this is probably it right here. most people who buy something for a little more then its worth don't declare its the end of the world. the other day in gw1 I bought an elite ele tome for 3 ecto and a minute later the guy was selling for 2 ecto. dang was the only response I gave. obviously anet cant let legitimate scammers ruin peoples outlook of the game cuz it would be bad for business, but at a certain point its the scamee's persons fault for being ignorant. most adults move on.

>

 

While it's true we're talking about a video game with fake money that fake money can kill a video game. I've played MMOs with runaway inflation where new people just leave because they can't ever earn enough to even gear their characters. Don't make any mistake about it, MMOs run on their economies. You want to see a game die, kill it's economy. The game will soon follow.

 

On the topic of scamming it's not just about scamming. It's about more knowledgeable players taking advantage of less knowledgeable ones. I hated in Guild Wars 1 that I never really knew what I was selling is worth. You needed to spend ages researching instead of playing the game to buy or sell anything. In some ways that ruined the game for me. Too many people lose out because they don't know and yes, most people aren't going to take the time to know. More people than will.

 

What do you think happens when those people realize they've been screwed? You think that makes for a happy player base? Because I don't.

[crepuscular.9047]

ease of a centralised location to find goods?

at the same time, it reduces the amount of gold available in the economy through listing fees and sales fees

 

There are ways to reduce bad experiences of direct player to player trading.

It's been over a decade, think back in the days of Ragnarok Online, you can create 'personal shops' and it will pop-up a speak bubble on top of the player, other player can click on it and buy things directly off it

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > ok I will attempt to address all answers.

> >

> > scamming - mousing over the item(s) in question to verify no same icon switcheroos will solve this. its the buyers prerogative to verify the contents.

> > global economy at risk - unless the TP tax is being used to fund the defense of LA I fail to see what exactly the p2p option would do in terms of risk. we are talking about a video game here with fake moneys.

> > equilibrium - every market has some degree of volatility. its normal. for example in gw1, ectos sell anywhere from 14-20 for 100k. people will sell what they think people will buy for, that's what its all about.

> > chat spam - this is a non issue. obviously there would be a separate chat channel for wts/wtb people like there is in gw1.

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > It requires additional resources to deal with scammers. The TP helps avoiding that.

> > this is probably it right here. most people who buy something for a little more then its worth don't declare its the end of the world. the other day in gw1 I bought an elite ele tome for 3 ecto and a minute later the guy was selling for 2 ecto. dang was the only response I gave. obviously anet cant let legitimate scammers ruin peoples outlook of the game cuz it would be bad for business, but at a certain point its the scamee's persons fault for being ignorant. most adults move on.

> >

>

> While it's true we're talking about a video game with fake money that fake money can kill a video game. I've played MMOs with runaway inflation where new people just leave because they can't ever earn enough to even gear their characters. Don't make any mistake about it, MMOs run on their economies. You want to see a game die, kill it's economy. The game will soon follow.

>

> On the topic of scamming it's not just about scamming. It's about more knowledgeable players taking advantage of less knowledgeable ones. I hated in Guild Wars 1 that I never really knew what I was selling is worth. You needed to spend ages researching instead of playing the game to buy or sell anything. In some ways that ruined the game for me. Too many people lose out because they don't know and yes, most people aren't going to take the time to know. More people than will.

>

> What do you think happens when those people realize they've been screwed? You think that makes for a happy player base? Because I don't.

 

I remember getting a perfect Fellblade (req 9, 15^50) in prophesies before factions launched. I had someone offer 10k for it. That was a huge amount of money to me so I agreed. I later mentioned it to the friend who had introduced me to the game. He said that the sword could have been sold for 100k plus ectos.

 

Part of me was ticked off, but I took it in stride. Still I can imagine that something like that could taint the experience for some.

[Tanek.5983]

GW2 is one of the only games where I actually use a trading post/auction house. Not only can I list an item from anywhere, I can instantly see buyer and seller prices to get an idea on value, which is always the problem for me in other games. I never have a clue what something is worth in the game's economy.

 

If I could not mail things to friends and an auction house was the **only** way to get items to them, I might have an issue with it, But what game woulD dO something like that? :P

[Ghostrider.6879]

After playing POE, I just want to say that I absolutely adore the trading post in GW2.

[Skotlex.7580]

> @"Ghostrider.6879" said:

> After playing POE, I just want to say that I absolutely adore the trading post in GW2.

 

Other games that have a working trading post tend to have post limits, so that if your item isn't sold in seven days, you get it mailed back, no fees reimbursed. Others, even worse, limit a player to listing a Max number of items.

 

I never really understood why they did that, but it sort of annoys me, it cuts short the market for low volume transactions.

 

I really don't think I've seen a game with a better trading post, all it actually lacks is auction mechanics for extremely rare items.

[Pirindolo.9427]

Scam? What Scam?

 

Player A opens a trade window with player B

Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

 

Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

[Balsa.3951]

agreed no player to player trade need u can post ur friends gifts use the mailbox

[Amaranthe.3578]

When all the trading happens through the TP it gives ANet control over the ingame economy which they really need. In GW2 gold is the ultimate currency so its very important for them to have that control.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

>@"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> Scam? What Scam?

>

> Player A opens a trade window with player B

> Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

>

> Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

 

Here’s a site that describes [common trade scams in gw1](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scam#Trade_scams). Of course they wouldn’t be the same for this game but there would be scams. Scammers are inventive.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> Scam? What Scam?

>

> Player A opens a trade window with player B

> Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

>

> Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

 

Yes, nice theory there. Still didn't work in a real life scenario.

 

The TP is here to stay and direct player to player trading will not get implemented. Period.