MyPuppy.8970 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > an icd at least. Like Blinding Ashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loboling.5293 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I want them to add a small 0.3-0.5 second ICD to retal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > They're for different purposes. > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. except blind and aegis require timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 The design of retaliation needs to be changed, such that there is some counterplay to it besides boon stripping. Retaliation hurts particular classes more than others -- anybody who has thrown a grenade barrage into a room full of people with retaliation on knows what I mean. This situation is less common in PvP because there aren't as many people, but the point still stands -- the design of this boon hurts more when using several smaller attacks than large ones. Engineer and thief are particularly hurt by retaliation when compared to warrior, guardian, or necro. What I propose is that retaliation actually buffs the damage on the opponent's next attack by some percentage. This allows builds without boon stripping to at least dodge or blind their way out of the damage, while still providing the functionality that retaliation is meant to provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Retal is just passive unnecessary damage. There is no need to punish people for hitting their skills properly, especially when it so disproportionately affects certain builds. Should be nerfed/reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zencow.3651 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > an icd at least. > > Like Blinding Ashes. Or Fire shields/Chaos Armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashi.8902 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Tbh they should just start reworking all the passive shit. Random aegis procs, random weakness, retal, blinds only on active things so u have to time it and so on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNICBLACK.7630 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Ok what about Confusion added with Torment which is a very common combination or a really harsh one of adding Fear into that, should they limit that as well I can assure you that there are players that consider these to be over powered as well, and with the first two you can stack intensity which Retaliation can not. Heck remember when a Guardian couldn't get into the higher difficulty Fractals because of the Instability that stole our Retaliation boon there wasn't much of an outcry to change it then. I personally view most of the argument to change it as coming from players that are getting hit by it in WvW from using large AOE's honestly it sounds really one sided Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skotlex.7580 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I feel the way retaliation works is fine, as mentioned above, it counters multihits, whereas aegis counters heavy hits. however, players aren't running around with 100% aegis uptime. High retaliation uptime changes the strategy from one of "time your combo" to "your combo based build is useless". Thus, the only issue I'd recognize is guardians with their really high retaliation uptime, and that one trait that makes them want such an uptime. I'd prefer if retaliation worked as an actual counter boon, rather than something people just have on all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I want to see every boon changing to stack in intensity instead duration eventually. I would also want for retaliation and other 'indirect' forms of damage like life steal and minions to use a separate stat that it's also used to increase the potency of boons. It could be called "Wisdom", for instance. So with high Power you'd do more direct damage, with high condition damage you'd do more damage with conditions, and with more wisdom, you'd get more benefit from boons, and deal more damage with retaliation, life steal and AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Side note: To counter power creep ANET should reduce the boon duration of EVERY boon by 50% and the condition duration of EVERY condition by 50%. NO EXCEPTIONS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > 41hit.....ya i'll assume you or anyone else hitting someone that many times is going to get clapped. > @"Bashi.8902" said: > I have never seen retal hitting this hard kitten All it takes is Dragons Maw > Procession of Blades > Whirling Wrath on a team and you get nuked with Retal. Give it a shot, you're guaranteed atleast 10k in retal from every mid fight. DH is bad enough, it's only good for using for fun and surely doesn't need this extra handicap? > @"The Ace.9105" said: > I like the extremely high damage AoE build that's probably not broken at all. Also 41 hits. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAR8dn8cCFdiddCWdCkdil7hS+9j/93KDa3CtqACg0F-jpAaABAUGgw9HAA It's just a troll build, not broken at all. 5 traps and trapper runes. If a team gets caught in the 3 button combo, I die with them just from Retal. Using such a troll build, I can't understand why I get punished for the enemy teams error of judgement.. If they want to +3 me and get caught in my burst, I should be able to be rewarded for that, no? I positioned myself properly, I timed it properly, I blow 2 traps to stealth in ontop of them grouped up and when I drop the burst, I kill myself for it. It's happening a lot actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Retaliation needs to be removed outright because rewarding players for being dumb enough to get hit is a terrible design philosophy. Damage totals are irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos.4263 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Well....nuking yourself from retaliation while heavily damaging the enemy team is actually a valid strategy. If you're dumping that on the entire enemy team solo...well yeah you'll fall over and you deserve to die if they're smart enough to counter it. If you're dumping that on the entire enemy team and have friends handy to help revive/rally/mop up....it's potentially a winning play. Context is everything but I don't think the counter is the issue so much as the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Deimos.4263" said: > Well....nuking yourself from retaliation while heavily damaging the enemy team is actually a valid strategy. If you're dumping that on the entire enemy team solo...well yeah you'll fall over and you deserve to die if they're smart enough to counter it. If you're dumping that on the entire enemy team and have friends handy to help revive/rally/mop up....it's potentially a winning play. Context is everything but I don't think the counter is the issue so much as the situation. This is pretty much how it goes actually... I drop them and myself then it all comes down to what my allies do and more often than not they just stand around pewpewing off point while the downs finish me off with downed skills. The build itself is really fun, it's even fun for stealth camping far or stealth camping overused pathways like the doorways on Nhifel.. You can 100-0 someone before they can react but its so much more satisfying to land this nuke on entire team instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > > > They're for different purposes. > > > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. > > except blind and aegis require timing. Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > > > > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > > > > > They're for different purposes. > > > > > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > > > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. > > > > except blind and aegis require timing. > > Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing. Retal isn't in short supply? Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal. That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class. Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated. With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan.9421 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Does it need a nerf? based on what little context we have, no. 11,248 damage across 41 hits is what, 274 damage? The burning damage is doing twice that. And with what little information we're given it is hard to make an argument on whether or not it should when the only context we have are a few numbers. Was this in PvP, WvW, or somewhere in PvE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"spartan.9421" said: > Does it need a nerf? based on what little context we have, no. 11,248 damage across 41 hits is what, 274 damage? The burning damage is doing twice that. And with what little information we're given it is hard to make an argument on whether or not it should when the only context we have are a few numbers. Was this in PvP, WvW, or somewhere in PvE? PvP and the build is posted in the comments section. 3 skills is all it takes to reach that much in retal. Dragons Maw > Procession of Blades > Whirling Wrath. Funny how burn does twice the damage but bleeds and other conditions do less than retal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > > > > > > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > > > > > > > They're for different purposes. > > > > > > > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > > > > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. > > > > > > except blind and aegis require timing. > > > > Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing. > > Retal isn't in short supply? > Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal. > That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class. > > Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated. > With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us. Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta". You can make anything appear over-tuned if you tunnel-vision on a meme-build that isn't viable above gold. So let me be more clear: Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > > > > > > > > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > > > > > > > > > They're for different purposes. > > > > > > > > > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > > > > > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. > > > > > > > > except blind and aegis require timing. > > > > > > Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing. > > > > Retal isn't in short supply? > > Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal. > > That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class. > > > > Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated. > > With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us. > > Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta". > > So let me be more clear: > > Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta. Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds... Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds. So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me. As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > > > > > > > > > > > They're for different purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > > > > > > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. > > > > > > > > > > except blind and aegis require timing. > > > > > > > > Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing. > > > > > > Retal isn't in short supply? > > > Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal. > > > That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class. > > > > > > Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated. > > > With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us. > > > > Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta". > > > > So let me be more clear: > > > > Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta. > > Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds... > Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds. > > So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me. > > As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive. No, a boon isn't a cause of build restrictions. Non-viable stuff being non-viable is the cause of build restrictions. Removing retal from the game isn't gonna make full-trapper DH any more viable. As said before, there is a difference between looking at specific skills/traits, and calling for an entire mechanic to be changed. If the meta shifts such that retal becomes oppressive, then you tune that by reducing availability of retal and the specific skills/traits that are giving too much of it, not by removing the boon from existence (which is effectively what an ICD would do). When each game has 4+ FB's running Zeal, come back to this. And even then, the answer is tuning the traits in Zeal, not removing an entire boon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits. > > > > > > > > > > > > They're for different purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks. > > > > > > Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks. > > > > > > > > > > except blind and aegis require timing. > > > > > > > > Except this was with reference to group retal, which as has been mentioned, is actually in short supply (in PvP, WvW is different story) and therefore requires timing. > > > > > > Retal isn't in short supply? > > > Just for example, Fragments of Faith combined with Wrathful spirit: Gain 6 Aegis, each one granting Retal. > > > That's not mentioning greatsword AoE retal or any other sources of Aegis from Guardian or any source of retal from any other class. > > > > > > Retal made sense preHot days, I think it's outdated. > > > With that said, I have a boonshare Mes friend that I might hit up, give him the retal to share for every team fight now and use this boon to punish the enemy team for even trying to attack us. > > > > Fragments of Faith and Wrathful Spirit aren't exactly what you'd call "meta". > > > > So let me be more clear: > > > > Group/AoE retal is in short supply in the current meta. > > Ah yes but not all of us like to play META builds... > Thats one thing I disliked about being in Platinum actually, there's no wiggle room for fun builds. > > So while retal may be fine now during the current META, it's not fine for those of us who wish to troll a bit of fun. A boon is a cause of build restrictions, seems weird to me. > > As someone mentioned before "burning does twice the damage of retal".. So basically Retal hurts more than bleeding, poisoned, torment and confusion... For a boon that's pretty impressive. While I agree that the retaliation damage needs a nerf, this not exactly accurate. Almost all classes in the meta hit few hit that deal high damage. Also, while theoretically you could have a build that procs multiple attack sources, but the vast majority do not. And retaliation is surely not a gating or to blame for build diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exedore.6320 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Actually, I would increase the damage of retaliation, *but* I would severely reduce the duration and access to the boon. Retaliation should be a counter-play option which requires good timing - like what the Protection boon used to be. It shouldn't be something which lasts 20sec straight for little effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambino.2109 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Rocket charge.. only had 3 hits and scored 7k... Why don't we nerf that instead... Oh wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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