Spartacus.3192 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Skotlex.7580" said: > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > You could say the same thing about torment and confusion. "Boo hooo waah waah i want torment and confusion removed from the game or nerfed heavily because my meme build that's based on spamming multiple attacks and kiting like crazy gets me killed. Torment and confusion stacks with intensity and easily accessible by some classes. ANET is killing my enjoyment by reducing build diversity. > > If the build can keep a high uptime of confusion or torment on yourself, then yeah we would have such complains. And it's actually part of why people hate mirage. :P but rather than arguing that these two conditions be removed, most people argue that they could tone down their rate of application. > > Most comments here support a similar approach. The "Boo hoo waah waah" part of my comment was to indicate i dont want what follows to actually happen. Im just following the OP's line of reasoning to highlight that changing something because you want a meme/niche build to work is poor logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skotlex.7580 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > @"Skotlex.7580" said: > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > You could say the same thing about torment and confusion. "Boo hooo waah waah i want torment and confusion removed from the game or nerfed heavily because my meme build that's based on spamming multiple attacks and kiting like crazy gets me killed. Torment and confusion stacks with intensity and easily accessible by some classes. ANET is killing my enjoyment by reducing build diversity. > > > > If the build can keep a high uptime of confusion or torment on yourself, then yeah we would have such complains. And it's actually part of why people hate mirage. :P but rather than arguing that these two conditions be removed, most people argue that they could tone down their rate of application. > > > > Most comments here support a similar approach. > > The "Boo hoo waah waah" part of my comment was to indicate i dont want what follows to actually happen. Im just following the OP's line of reasoning to highlight that changing something because you want a meme/niche build to work is poor logic. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Rather than just criticize the OP as making a not very informed objection to the game, I'd rather explore if there is an issue, even if it isn't as simple as the OP would suggest. After all, not every complain of the game will always boil down to "not knowing how to play". :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 i guess using all of your skills counts as spammy gameplay these days lol. people are funny. oh wait if you don't have tons of aoe / multi hit skills then youre not spammy! got it guise. > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > Im just following the OP's line of reasoning to highlight that changing something because you want a meme/niche build to work is poor logic. so build diversity bad. got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falan.1839 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Skotlex.7580" said: > > I feel the way retaliation works is fine, as mentioned above, it counters multihits, whereas aegis counters heavy hits. > > > > however, players aren't running around with 100% aegis uptime. High retaliation uptime changes the strategy from one of "time your combo" to "your combo based build is useless". > > > > Thus, the only issue I'd recognize is guardians with their really high retaliation uptime, and that one trait that makes them want such an uptime. > > > > I'd prefer if retaliation worked as an actual counter boon, rather than something people just have on all the time. > > Core guardians actually have relatively low retaliation uptime compared to other classes. At least the hammer version. > Elixir Holo for example has higher access to it, so does chaos Chrono. Chaos mirage also has about as much, all with more sustain than the glassy core guard build. That's just not true, the only regular access to Retal that Elixir Holo is the 8s from the passive Elixir B (maybe 1-2 seconds more from boon duration). Otherwise you sometimes get 5s from converting Confusion with passive Elixir C and leaving Holo Forge, but it's not reliable access at all. Active Elixir B would add more, but it's not a realistic option since you need stunbreaks and Immus/Block from your slotskills to stay alive as Holo. About the topic: No, I don't think the damage is too high, but it's a lazy passive mechanic that can't be countered so a rework giving it a different functionality might make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > i guess using all of your skills counts as spammy gameplay these days lol. people are funny. > oh wait if you don't have tons of aoe / multi hit skills then youre not spammy! got it guise. > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > Im just following the OP's line of reasoning to highlight that changing something because you want a meme/niche build to work is poor logic. > so build diversity bad. got it. No that's not what i said. Build diversity means ability to have more than just 1 high performing build. Meme builds don't count as build diversity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovark.2514 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Ratal needs to stack in intensity. That way those who want their damage output to be retal based must build into it while allowing retal to be played around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > @"Skotlex.7580" said: > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > You could say the same thing about torment and confusion. "Boo hooo waah waah i want torment and confusion removed from the game or nerfed heavily because my meme build that's based on spamming multiple attacks and kiting like crazy gets me killed. Torment and confusion stacks with intensity and easily accessible by some classes. ANET is killing my enjoyment by reducing build diversity. > > > > If the build can keep a high uptime of confusion or torment on yourself, then yeah we would have such complains. And it's actually part of why people hate mirage. :P but rather than arguing that these two conditions be removed, most people argue that they could tone down their rate of application. > > > > Most comments here support a similar approach. > > The "Boo hoo waah waah" part of my comment was to indicate i dont want what follows to actually happen. Im just following the OP's line of reasoning to highlight that changing something because you want a meme/niche build to work is poor logic. You apparently missed the wall of text that says this thread isn't to advocate change but to hear the thoughts of others. Its interesting to hear that changing something to allow more fun builds is considered "poor logic".. you might find it as "poor reasoning" as logic isn't really involved in this. If logic was involved then Retal would already be on the chopping block so to speak from all the efforts of late to remove passive play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > No that's not what i said. Build diversity means ability to have more than just 1 high performing build. Meme builds don't count as build diversity they do if they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > No that's not what i said. Build diversity means ability to have more than just 1 high performing build. Meme builds don't count as build diversity > > they do if they work. Even if they don't become META, wheres the harm in allowing a few extra builds to be used? Clearly it wouldn't effect the META or the top players anyway, but it would go a very long way for those of us who want to play fun builds for fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoSpyro.1780 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. So remove confusion then too i guess? Since if i attack i take damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > > when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. > > So remove confusion then too i guess? Since if i attack i take damage? Or just something available to each and every class first, a condition cleanse. I dont know why confusion keeps coming up, its a damaging condition and we are talking about a boon so its not even comparable outside the fact that they both damage the attacker. I said it to either you or someone else earlier but no one wants anything removed, the discussion is about if a boon should have its damage nerfed a little bit and how people feel about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > > > when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. > > > > So remove confusion then too i guess? Since if i attack i take damage? > > Or just something available to each and every class first, a condition cleanse. > > I dont know why confusion keeps coming up, its a damaging condition and we are talking about a boon so its not even comparable outside the fact that they both damage the attacker. Lots of classes have the ability to remove boons from an enemy....just like classes can cleanse. So in a way very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > > > > when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. > > > > > > So remove confusion then too i guess? Since if i attack i take damage? > > > > Or just something available to each and every class first, a condition cleanse. > > > > I dont know why confusion keeps coming up, its a damaging condition and we are talking about a boon so its not even comparable outside the fact that they both damage the attacker. > > Lots of classes have the ability to remove boons from an enemy....just like classes can cleanse. So in a way very similar. Oh, like DH? which is nuking itself on retal? or do you mean FA Tempest which also nukes itself on Retal? Would you mind telling me which skills they have have that removes boons? My Tempest runs the sigil but 1 boon every 3s per disrupt aiming to take retal from a plethora of boons always feels like a gamble to me but maybe you know better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > > > > > when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. > > > > > > > > So remove confusion then too i guess? Since if i attack i take damage? > > > > > > Or just something available to each and every class first, a condition cleanse. > > > > > > I dont know why confusion keeps coming up, its a damaging condition and we are talking about a boon so its not even comparable outside the fact that they both damage the attacker. > > > > Lots of classes have the ability to remove boons from an enemy....just like classes can cleanse. So in a way very similar. > > Oh, like DH? which is nuking itself on retal? > or do you mean FA Tempest which also nukes itself on Retal? > > Would you mind telling me which skills they have have that removes boons? > My Tempest runs the sigil but 1 boon every 3s per disrupt aiming to take retal from a plethora of boons always feels like a gamble to me but maybe you know better? read my comment again..."lots" does not equal "every"....in the same way as a cleanse skill (as you suggested) is NOT guaranteed to cleanse the torment and only cleanse a convenient cover condi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > > > > > > when the counter is "don't attack the enemy". Lul, terrible design. > > > > > > > > > > So remove confusion then too i guess? Since if i attack i take damage? > > > > > > > > Or just something available to each and every class first, a condition cleanse. > > > > > > > > I dont know why confusion keeps coming up, its a damaging condition and we are talking about a boon so its not even comparable outside the fact that they both damage the attacker. > > > > > > Lots of classes have the ability to remove boons from an enemy....just like classes can cleanse. So in a way very similar. > > > > Oh, like DH? which is nuking itself on retal? > > or do you mean FA Tempest which also nukes itself on Retal? > > > > Would you mind telling me which skills they have have that removes boons? > > My Tempest runs the sigil but 1 boon every 3s per disrupt aiming to take retal from a plethora of boons always feels like a gamble to me but maybe you know better? > > read my comment again..."lots" does not equal "every"....in the same way as a cleanse skill (as you suggested) is NOT guaranteed to cleanse the torment and only cleanse a convenient cover condi. its funny you say that now as I originally said "something available to each and every class, condition cleanse" and your response was "lots of classes have the ability to boon remove." It appears you have forgotten context but no matter because Im glad you now realise that "Lots" does not equal "everyone". Your own words is exactly the point I was getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I used to think retal was a throwaway boon for the longest time and maybe even a liability as it means one more thing that can be corrupted. It has become slightly more prevalent since HoT and PoF but its effectiveness is still situational, your's being one of those situations. I would prefer for retal to remain where it is. It certainly should not do any more damage. I'm voting No to this since I rarely have ever noticed its damage (either dealt to me or to others attacking me). If retal damage did get nerfed though, I honestly wouldn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getalifeturd.8139 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 No, on the contrary retaliation along with reflection both need buffs to discourage this spamfest we call Guild Wars 2 pvp. Imagine if Reflection scaled off the attacking player's stats so that you could actually punish the zerker players. Instead we get a meta where in WvWvW at least people run minstrel guards and do very little damage with reflection despite how powerful it should be. The game needs much more ways to punish players for mindless spam rather than just ignore mechanics. People cry about confusion but I just laugh when I compare it to Guild Wars 1. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_hex_spells I can only imagine the Q.Q in this game if players were punished for spamming skills. Empathy and Insidious Parasite would hard counter melee. Backfire and Arcane Conundrum would make casters rage. Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit would make zergs cry and ragequit the game forever. And those are only some of the many things that made Guild Wars 1 more of an Esport than this game will ever be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 To be honest I'd rather not see it changed, but I know the feel of multi hitting into a group feels. If you're going to change it, you'd need to increase the damage to be at least something worthwhile if you're throwing a lengthy ICD on it -(3-5s per target), or do what others have suggested and make it stack in intensity instead so people can build around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 > @"Lucentfir.7430" said: > To be honest I'd rather not see it changed, but I know the feel of multi hitting into a group feels. If you're going to change it, you'd need to increase the damage to be at least something worthwhile if you're throwing a lengthy ICD on it -(3-5s per target), or do what others have suggested and make it stack in intensity instead so people can build around it. I like the idea of intensity stacking or even changing the boon itself to something like "If you kill a player with retaliation, lose 15% health" or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralkuth.1456 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I think Retaliation needs to scale more with stats, and have bigger tie-ins to classes for on-demand access. We can lower the uptime to compensate. The nature of the boon might also require more tweaking, such as making it so that it actually reflects and reduces damage of a set amount (we can lower the base amount and make it scale with an offensive stat), e.g. actually reduce an incoming hit by 200 and deal that 200 damage back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incisorr.9502 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 always hated retaliation you get rewarded for not doing anything, what a horrible concept, it's outdated, it's too 2010, gw2 should try to keep up with the times and modernize the game but instead they seem to be going in the other direction (like last patch making a skill not usable on people behind you to increase the clunkiness of the game when all that should be completely removed instead, for all classes, so the game can be more fluid and feel more modern) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominik.9721 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"incisorr.9502" said: > always hated retaliation > > you get rewarded for not doing anything, what a horrible concept, it's outdated, it's too 2010, gw2 should try to keep up with the times and modernize the game but instead they seem to be going in the other direction (like last patch making a skill not usable on people behind you to increase the clunkiness of the game when all that should be completely removed instead, for all classes, so the game can be more fluid and feel more modern) So you mean you can play like a pleb with mirage, running forward and casting axe on a target behind you? Poor flänby :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Inner CD per target of course ... I don't really know why it hasn't been made yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > Inner CD per target of course ... I don't really know why it hasn't been made yet. If it had an ICD the damage would be higher so it isn't completely negligible. People would still die to it and complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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