Erasculio.2914 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. What do we have a strong demand for in GW2? Skins. Allow crafting to make more skins than it currently does. Then you have an increase in demand and make crafting more relevant without the "only way" of making it worse. ArenaNet wouldn't even have to add more skins to the game. Just allow crafting to make skins from legacy content that is not supported anymore, such as dungeons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > What do we have a strong demand for in GW2? Skins. > > Allow crafting to make more skins than it currently does. Then you have an increase in demand and make crafting more relevant without the "only way" of making it worse. > > ArenaNet wouldn't even have to add more skins to the game. Just allow crafting to make skins from legacy content that is not supported anymore, such as dungeons. I don't think @"Astralporing.1957" was actually suggesting making crafting more annoying, but that is exactly how at least some other MMOs make it profitable - they design a crafting system which is a big commitment to use, so players effectively have to choose between crafting _or_ other areas of the game and then crafters make their money by selling items they've made to people who don't want to craft themselves. For example in my other MMO - Elder Scrolls Online - (which is a relatively mild version) you need to level up crafting by using the crafts, but then also spend skill points (which then can't be used for combat skills) to unlock new abilities - like being able to use higher tier materials. You also need to research traits for equipment by finding or buying equipment with that trait, taking it to the crafting station and then waiting hours, days or weeks for the research to complete. It takes a _minimum_ of 326 days and 19 hours to complete all of them (which fortunately includes time you're offline). You also need to find or buy 'motifs' to unlock new skins for your crafted equipment - at first you can only craft in your race's style. Oh, and everything you craft starts off white quality, and upgrading it has a chance to destroy it so you have to start over - you can reduce the chance by using more upgrade materials, and by putting points into your crafting skill, but it's another barrier for low level crafters. As a result a lot of people don't bother with crafting and it can be quite profitable for crafters to sell them gear they can't make themselves. I don't remember the details because it's been about 18 years since I stopped playing but in Ultima Online it was even worse - if your character was a crafter you could make good money (my sister made more as a blacksmith than I ever did clearing dungeons) but you weren't going to be doing much else, especially because in that game your skills decayed if you didn't use them, so levelling crafting just in case you wanted to make something later was not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graymalkyn.8076 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I don't believe crafting was ever intended to be profitable. I think it's doing exactly what it was intended to do...offer a way for players to make their own stuff (or non-ascended stuff for others). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Well there are multiple ways of approaching the topic. You can look at relevant as: 1) Crafting is required in more aspects of the game 2) Crafting as a way to make gold 3) Crafting as a way to get better gear 4) Crafting as an activity that more people enjoy For the first point it's tricky because there are lots of things that require you to craft something left and right but they are not essential. So for many collections there are usually some crafting requirements. Also not everyone likes crafting so to set crafting requirements on more stuff might work prohibitive and may turn people off the game. The second point is a matter of opinion whether that is desirable or not. Good arguments can be made for and against but the simple truth is that that is not just depending on crafting but also the market and there the problem is that if a lot more people start crafting stuff, the prices will go down as the supply will outweigh the demand more and more. So crafting to make money actually only works if not too many people do this. As for better gear, well it does that already but the question is of course what's the point of it. In sPvP it doesn't matter, but people do like to get better gear so in PvE and WvW it's something that more people might do than need to. Just cause they like to work towards something or to just get a bit of an edge and a bit more damage etc. The interesting thing is that as you go along in this game you realize that the crafting costs of for example ascended gear is completely out of proportion with alternate routes. For example people who do fractals will have a much easier time getting ascended gear but as I've recently learned the best way is actually WvW, at least for me. The crafting costs for the marks are a lot less. The problem is of course that you need to do WvW regularly to get the extra currency needed to buy ascended gear after you unlock the exotic. However, the big advantage is that you get to pick the stats. Even the exotic ones allow you pick the stat set. So fourth point, the enjoyment of crafting. Well I think the crafting system is too convoluted and has too many layers for most people to actually enjoy. Also the plethora of stat sets which are mostly useless add to the chaos and so in the end the listings of items you can craft is just soo long and annoying to deal with. And well it is cost prohibitive for a lot of people. Lastly, I want to add a point that relates to all of the above. Look at what crafting competes with. When you turn level 80, if you leveled normally you already have enough gold to buy a full berserker set of gear and karma can also be a source to buy exotic gear in Orr. Then look at the price of such items on the TP and then what it costs to craft such items. It's just not really worth it to make exotics. Also the newer sets which are account bound like marauder or viper stats cost a lot to make comparatively to just buying other stat sets. It also puts me off making exotic gear because it is still costly and makes me wonder if I should bother at all or if I should just keep saving for ascended gear. I don't need ascended gear but I just like to work towards things. So then I discovered WvW and found this reward track for triumphant armor which gives me a choice of stats. WvW is quite easy to do really with the dailies and just tagging along and it is a lot less tedious than the normal crafting route. At least in my view. So all in all I think crafting could be improved a lot. I just don't know if ArenaNet are interested. What I mean with that is that the resource cost of changing it, which would be an extensive overhaul in my view, may not reflect the possible outcome of those changes. Not holding my breath in other words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etria.3642 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Aren't they already doing that? What else are the new weapons and armor skins in the last couple of episodes for? You even get ap for making them. Granted I personally don't care for the weapons but I love the elegy armor and crafted all of them. Hopefully they will continue to do this. Crafting is very relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. Increasing demand doesn't work. People would just craft the stuff for themselves. That wouldn't make crafting more profitable. Even with more demand, the only things you could profit on would be those that are either timelocked, or cannot be crafted by anyone (due to recipe rarity). As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. Notice, i do _not_ advocate changing the crafting system. I simply point out that a system that is so easy and comfortable anyone can be a crafter and craft stuff for themselves without any significant disadvantage is a system that cannot be realistically profitable. The only way you could craft something and sell it at profit is if you find buyers that either can't or is not willing to craft that item themselves. With a system where crafting is easy, there won't be many such buyers. Supply (crafters) is much greater than demand (non-crafters). It's not a "horrible design". It's simply a result of accessibility and scarcity on market prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 > @"Etria.3642" said: > Aren't they already doing that? What else are the new weapons and armor skins in the last couple of episodes for? You even get ap for making them. Granted I personally don't care for the weapons but I love the elegy armor and crafted all of them. > > Hopefully they will continue to do this. Crafting is very relevant. Well if you read the second post OP seems to want power creep and gear treadmill so ... I guess that would be a no? On the other hand crafting IS required for some stats ... unless you get most of your weapons and armors from raids/wvw/spvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineManXX.9746 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Crafting is actually already quite profitable. You just need to know what to craft as it's not necessarily obvious what you can turn profits on. Many of the profitable crafts are things you may not even know exist or that there is a need for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 You can make money of crafting just use these so secret sites https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/recipe-overview , https://www.gw2spidy.com/ , https://www.gw2tp.com/calculator . Crafting UI needs a rework though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard.8150 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > Except that, try as you might, you can't sell BtA items, like backpacks, to share an item that I can already craft that's exotic, and yet, I can't sell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > > > > Except that, try as you might, you can't sell BtA items, like backpacks, to share an item that I can already craft that's exotic, and yet, I can't sell them. Well don't you think that'd be part of the suggestion here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard.8150 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > > > > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > > > > > > > Except that, try as you might, you can't sell BtA items, like backpacks, to share an item that I can already craft that's exotic, and yet, I can't sell them. > > Well don't you think that'd be part of the suggestion here? What I am thinking is that there's a reason ANet went with this set up, and I suspect it's got something to do with the economy. Why else would anyone make desirable items BtA when acquired? It gets really easy to "abuse" this kind of system. It also gets really easy to corner the market, and drive prices sky high, causing massive inflation, and making it hard for regular players, or players that don't want to craft, to get items that can only be achieved via crafting, especially with the "make crafted items better than drop items" in the OP. I've seen what happens with uncontrolled economies in MMOs. Base items listing for literally billions of the game's currency on their TP equivalents. I'd prefer to stay away from that, it's kind of refreshing, to be honest, to not have to count the 0s behind a price to see if I have enough money or not. I realize that this is likely exactly what would make crafting "relevant" to some, but we don't need it here, and frankly, we shouldn't really want it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. The current situation shows, that while the dislike exists, it's not so pronounced to make people actually avoid crafting to a degree where it would make it profitable. It's not enough for few people willing to buy rather than to craft to exist. In order for crafting to be profitable, those people would need to significantly outnumber those willing to craft. In gw2 however, the crafting system is very easy to use, so even many of the people disliking crafting are likely to use it when faced with significant price difference. If you made crafting more necessary, without at the same time making it a much greater time/effort investment (so, basically, without redoing the whole underlying system), that situation would not only not change, but even more people would be pushed into crafting for themselves. Even though they'd dislike it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Whatever happens I don't want my crafting to become RNG based like Aion was, thank you very much. No no three times no. never have leveled crafting on either of my accounts with the idea to make money. They are leveled so i can make food, armour and weapons selfishly for me. As much as I would like jewel craft to be updated I think that would cause the issues that certain maps wouldn't be farmed and that would cause more moaning on these hallowed walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westenev.5289 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Weaponcrafting and Armourcrafting crafts still have their uses, and 400 jeweler is vital to dungeoneers, but I don't think I've ever cooked anything since getting 400 cooking. Most of the best-in-slot items can be bought off the TP for cheaper, are exclusive to events (riceballs, spring rolls), or are made from other professions (sharpning stone utilities). For WvW, the provisions box has cheap canned foods which are "good enough" not to really matter. Even if you wanted to craft it, you have to follow a long chain of recipies to reach the end result. It's kind of a shame. Cooking was probably the skill I was most hyped for when I was a newbie... and I never get to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Westenev.5289" said: > Weaponcrafting and Armourcrafting crafts still have their uses, and 400 jeweler is vital to dungeoneers, but I don't think I've ever cooked anything since getting 400 cooking. Most of the best-in-slot items can be bought off the TP for cheaper, are exclusive to events (riceballs, spring rolls), or are made from other professions (sharpning stone utilities). For WvW, the provisions box has cheap canned foods which are "good enough" not to really matter. Even if you wanted to craft it, you have to follow a long chain of recipies to reach the end result. > > It's kind of a shame. Cooking was probably the skill I was most hyped for when I was a newbie... and I never get to use it. Accurate, but only if you're focusing on BIS foods. If you're just doing dailies or map completion for example, a non-BIS LV 80 food is cheap to produce, gives a small boost in stats but also give the +10% XP. I am equally puzzled at why they release unique foods during festivals without offering a near equivalent via recipes. Delicious Rice Ball is a great example: there should be a craftable version that doesn't have the +MF stat, and also isn't useable as a turn in for the festival vendors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > > > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > > > > > > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > > > > > > > > > > Except that, try as you might, you can't sell BtA items, like backpacks, to share an item that I can already craft that's exotic, and yet, I can't sell them. > > > > Well don't you think that'd be part of the suggestion here? > > What I am thinking is that there's a reason ANet went with this set up, and I suspect it's got something to do with the economy. Why else would anyone make desirable items BtA when acquired? > > It gets really easy to "abuse" this kind of system. It also gets really easy to corner the market, and drive prices sky high, causing massive inflation, and making it hard for regular players, or players that don't want to craft, to get items that can only be achieved via crafting, especially with the "make crafted items better than drop items" in the OP. I've seen what happens with uncontrolled economies in MMOs. Base items listing for literally billions of the game's currency on their TP equivalents. I'd prefer to stay away from that, it's kind of refreshing, to be honest, to not have to count the 0s behind a price to see if I have enough money or not. I realize that this is likely exactly what would make crafting "relevant" to some, but we don't need it here, and frankly, we shouldn't really want it either. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > The current situation shows, that while the dislike exists, it's not so pronounced to make people actually avoid crafting to a degree where it would make it profitable. It's not enough for few people willing to buy rather than to craft to exist. In order for crafting to be profitable, those people would need to significantly outnumber those willing to craft. In gw2 however, the crafting system is very easy to use, so even many of the people disliking crafting are likely to use it when faced with significant price difference. > > If you made crafting more necessary, without at the same time making it a much greater time/effort investment (so, basically, without redoing the whole underlying system), that situation would not only not change, but even more people would be pushed into crafting for themselves. Even though they'd dislike it. > > I dunno. It feels like these two replies sort of contradict themselves rather than the OP. Firstly, crafting doesn't cause inflation. Inflation causes inflation (overabundance of currency to goods ratio or overabundance of goods to currency). Secondly, one talks about the ratio of "crafters" (defined people liking, willing and profiting off crafting) to "non-crafters" (defined as those not in the former group) needs to be exclusive to work while the other says if its exclusive they will control the market but not taking into account that neither the crafters or the non-crafters will corner the market, but the traders (defined as the people that buy low and sell high). The traders currently corner the market and they will corner the market either if crafting is relevant or not. That being said, I'm just trying to spark dialog. I understand what you're saying, I just feel that we're all coming at this from slightly different perspectives meaning I think there is still worthwhile discussion to be had. I'm of the group that enjoys making stuff in-game but dislike that the system is boring and extremely automated to a degree that it might as well be an NPC that has a "patronage gauge". The relevancy of crafted items is more an discussion of the economy and in-game equipment as a whole. I think the game should have tried to keep crafted and dropped gear as "different" from obtained/rewarded gear. Like, instead of exotics being a weaker version of ascended, it should have been that Superior Runes/Sigils or below being slottable in exotic gear while ascended would have had a different upgrade that was focused on something unique from runes/sigils. But yeah, that would require a rework of equipment and upgrades as well as likely needing to alter crafting. Of course, you could keep the status quo because there's no telling what ramifications widespread changes like what the OP or I suggest would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > I dunno. It feels like these two replies sort of contradict themselves rather than the OP. Oh, quite possible, seeing as you're responding to two different people. I so happen to disagree with @"robertthebard.8150" on some of his points as well. If you are talking about _my_ two points however, then i have already answered why i don't think they are contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard.8150 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > > > > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that, try as you might, you can't sell BtA items, like backpacks, to share an item that I can already craft that's exotic, and yet, I can't sell them. > > > > > > Well don't you think that'd be part of the suggestion here? > > > > What I am thinking is that there's a reason ANet went with this set up, and I suspect it's got something to do with the economy. Why else would anyone make desirable items BtA when acquired? > > > > It gets really easy to "abuse" this kind of system. It also gets really easy to corner the market, and drive prices sky high, causing massive inflation, and making it hard for regular players, or players that don't want to craft, to get items that can only be achieved via crafting, especially with the "make crafted items better than drop items" in the OP. I've seen what happens with uncontrolled economies in MMOs. Base items listing for literally billions of the game's currency on their TP equivalents. I'd prefer to stay away from that, it's kind of refreshing, to be honest, to not have to count the 0s behind a price to see if I have enough money or not. I realize that this is likely exactly what would make crafting "relevant" to some, but we don't need it here, and frankly, we shouldn't really want it either. > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Erasculio.2914" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > The only way to have crafting more relevant/more profitable (which, by the way, does not automatically imply a _positive_ impact on TP) is to make it harder, more complicated, and/or more annoying > > > > > > > > > > Wow, such a horrible design. You would make crafting worse so fewer people would be willing to do it at all and then create a fake scarcity by reducing the supply of crafted items in the game. This is the kind of design decision people make in MMORPG that leads to players rioting (just see Anthem right now). > > > > > > > > > > The rather obvious alternative is, instead of reducing supply, to increase demand. > > > > As far as relevancy, yes, making crafting less an option and more a requirement would make it more relevant, but not in a good way. People that dislike crafting would not like being forced into it more. People that like crafting would still dislike that they can't really use crafting for profit (any more that they can now). Thus, there would be no benefit whatsoever. > > > > > > But these two points counter themselves. If people that dislike crafting can instead obtain the relevant items from the people that do like to craft, that's potential profit for the people that craft and it's bypassing the requirement of those that dislike to craft thus the benefit is there. > > The current situation shows, that while the dislike exists, it's not so pronounced to make people actually avoid crafting to a degree where it would make it profitable. It's not enough for few people willing to buy rather than to craft to exist. In order for crafting to be profitable, those people would need to significantly outnumber those willing to craft. In gw2 however, the crafting system is very easy to use, so even many of the people disliking crafting are likely to use it when faced with significant price difference. > > > > If you made crafting more necessary, without at the same time making it a much greater time/effort investment (so, basically, without redoing the whole underlying system), that situation would not only not change, but even more people would be pushed into crafting for themselves. Even though they'd dislike it. > > > > > > I dunno. It feels like these two replies sort of contradict themselves rather than the OP. > > Firstly, crafting doesn't cause inflation. Inflation causes inflation (overabundance of currency to goods ratio or overabundance of goods to currency). > > Secondly, one talks about the ratio of "crafters" (defined people liking, willing and profiting off crafting) to "non-crafters" (defined as those not in the former group) needs to be exclusive to work while the other says if its exclusive they will control the market but not taking into account that neither the crafters or the non-crafters will corner the market, but the traders (defined as the people that buy low and sell high). The traders currently corner the market and they will corner the market either if crafting is relevant or not. > > That being said, I'm just trying to spark dialog. I understand what you're saying, I just feel that we're all coming at this from slightly different perspectives meaning I think there is still worthwhile discussion to be had. I'm of the group that enjoys making stuff in-game but dislike that the system is boring and extremely automated to a degree that it might as well be an NPC that has a "patronage gauge". The relevancy of crafted items is more an discussion of the economy and in-game equipment as a whole. I think the game should have tried to keep crafted and dropped gear as "different" from obtained/rewarded gear. Like, instead of exotics being a weaker version of ascended, it should have been that Superior Runes/Sigils or below being slottable in exotic gear while ascended would have had a different upgrade that was focused on something unique from runes/sigils. > > But yeah, that would require a rework of equipment and upgrades as well as likely needing to alter crafting. Of course, you could keep the status quo because there's no telling what ramifications widespread changes like what the OP or I suggest would have. Hypothetical scenario: I'm a dedicated crafter, and can craft every piece of cool gear there is. OP's suggestions go in, just as they are, and so, all that gear that I can craft is now BiS for everyone. So, seeing as I can now sell anything gear wise that I craft, I set the bar at a few hundred gold per unit. Assuming similar gear sells for less than 50, I am now on the way to inflating the prices of gear across the board. Even if someone wants to undercut me for sales, they'll still try to squeeze every copper out of that gear that they can, so they may well price it at 299 gp compared to my 300. In order to hedge my bets, once I start selling this gear, and it starts moving, I'm then going to buy up all the cheaper mats, and either keep them to use, or flip them for higher prices, all to make buying my gear the more attractive option. I won't be the only one doing this, and this is exactly what happens when you allow a free market to run wild, with BiS gear as a target, and the people that want it that can't craft it, or can't afford to craft it, forced to pay the prices that are set. Note that, in order to protect my get rich quick scheme, I would also buy up any "reasonably" priced crafted gear, and relist it for my prices. Again, I won't be the only one that does this. It won't take long to get those prices stabilized at or near the price I want to make for my crafted gear, because even the crafters that are thinking they can get rich keeping the prices down, once they see that the gear is moving for higher prices, are going to raise their own prices so that they can get a piece of that bigger, better pie. This is why crafted gear is BtA, or is at least a contributing factor to that, and the same for materials for higher tier gear. If anyone believes that this cannot, or will not happen, they need to get into more MMOs and see for themselves what happens when you can sell BiS gear on an AH equivalent system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 oh you never know, maybe one day the next new mount will be crafted only and sellable, for $$$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trise.2865 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Let's take this in a different direction. Instead of trying to make crafting more "relevant" (seriously?), perhaps we should attempt to make crafting more *interesting*. One obvious solution is more recipes. More skins, more things to make, more interactions, etc., etc.. One easy way to increase the total number of recipes could be setting up alternate-ingredient recipes, perhaps using items from other disciplines (i.e. using Potions in creating or instead of Emblems). This lessens the demand slightly for certain rare or high-tier crafting materials, while greatly raising demand for most other mats and bolstering some "lesser used" crafting disciplines and products. Another possible solution is to create a crafting mini game instead of the standard "loading bar" UI. In the interest of fairness, the mini game should have no impact on the item(s) being crafted, but high success could reduce or refund certain material costs, award additional prizes (such as minor Boosters and/or extra crafting XP), or simply complete the craft sooner/quicker. I would advise that this mini game should be a "one and done" thing, as in, the entire batch ordered should complete once crafting is finished. This is to reduce tedium and repetition for the average crafter, while still rewarding people who would choose to "farm" crafting one or a few items at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conqueror.3682 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Make crafting account bound, rather than character bound, thats the only improvement i need to see. By the way, with the last change to rune crafting, many runes became very profitable, so, crafting has became more relevant than it was before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > I dunno. It feels like these two replies sort of contradict themselves rather than the OP. > Oh, quite possible, seeing as you're responding to two different people. I so happen to disagree with @"robertthebard.8150" on some of his points as well. > > If you are talking about _my_ two points however, then i have already answered why i don't think they are contradictory. I understand it's two different posters. It's that they take the same stance against the OP but for somewhat contrasting reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"Westenev.5289" said: > > Weaponcrafting and Armourcrafting crafts still have their uses, and 400 jeweler is vital to dungeoneers, but I don't think I've ever cooked anything since getting 400 cooking. Most of the best-in-slot items can be bought off the TP for cheaper, are exclusive to events (riceballs, spring rolls), or are made from other professions (sharpning stone utilities). For WvW, the provisions box has cheap canned foods which are "good enough" not to really matter. Even if you wanted to craft it, you have to follow a long chain of recipies to reach the end result. > > > > It's kind of a shame. Cooking was probably the skill I was most hyped for when I was a newbie... and I never get to use it. > > Accurate, but only if you're focusing on BIS foods. If you're just doing dailies or map completion for example, a non-BIS LV 80 food is cheap to produce, gives a small boost in stats but also give the +10% XP. > The Halloween foods are 2c and give +15% XP For utility you can use the Halloween ones for an additional +30% MF or use the Wintersday ones for an additional +10% karma > I am equally puzzled at why they release unique foods during festivals without offering a near equivalent via recipes. Delicious Rice Ball is a great example: there should be a craftable version that doesn't have the +MF stat, and also isn't useable as a turn in for the festival vendors. Tapioca Pudding is the closest to Delicious Rice Balls and craftable but it is also 50% more expensive :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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