No downed state

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Nidome.1365" said:

> No down state promotes bad play through one-shot ambush builds. It did the same thing last time they did it.

> Why keep bringing back a gimmick that is unpopular with the majority of WvW players and promotes bad play?

 

It only promotes "bad play" because Anet hasn't done much to actually address one shot builds. There aren't many but yes they come out in droves during the No Downed State event.

 

Specifically these builds are...

Deadeye with Rifle *or* Malicious Backstab from dagger. Perma stealth is what makes this problematic.

Soulbeast with Longbow and Sic 'em.

Herald *sometimes* but this is less pre-fight setup and more during the fight since they won't generate 25 Might stacks out of combat when solo.

Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage Power Shatter can be a culprit sometimes.

 

Essentially any "1 shot" build you see is really just a result of the power creep in the game right now, *granted* there are downsides to these builds. Either being super squishy or just some one trick pony and they *can* be countered unless you're not...well...not good, but even for good players that crap is *annoying* especially in any outnumbered situation.

 

Personally I love No Downed state. It does make winning outnumbered fights much easier since people aren't carried by downed state and rally, which many, many people are.

 

Its why I've tried to advocate for discussion around completely reworking revives as a mechanic in GW2 in PvP modes like sPvP and WvW, especially considering how strong and abundant healing builds are now. They literally *just* buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players. Do I want them to remove reviving as a mechanic in the game? **No. Not at all.** I want them to improve it. I would much rather them remove downed state and add/change some skills that heal or revive Downed players so that it brings them back to life from full dead but put those skills, like Battle Standard, onto 5 minute cooldowns (also only making them revive 1 player) so they aren't available too frequently but still allow for clutch revives during fights. The longer cooldown and tying it to a skill with a cooldown would just allow for much better and healthier counterplay.

 

Would it make these skills *required* for zerg play or group play? Yes but I don't see a problem with that, at competitive levels in GW1 GvG and otherwise Res Signet was essentially required in builds for most players with *maybe* the exception of 1 or 2 people on your team. It would also create more diversity among zergs if you, for example, make sure a set couple of Spellbreakers use Winds of Disenchantment but also make sure several have Battle Standard available. It would mean coordinating for revives *during* a zerg vs zerg fight would be an important and tactical aspect of winning, surviving or prolonging the engagement.

 

Oh and in regards to the Scrapper Function Gyro mechanic also being made "obsolete" should something like this happen....Anet can turn it into an actual active use skill on or adjacent to the Toolbelt skills and have it function purely as a support skill. Basically a drone defibrillator that the Scrapper sends out to revive an ally.

 

Another thing to address in regards to an argument against it that I see sometimes, also one that people say is the reason *why* Anet would never do this; Finishers.

 

Anet makes money off of Finishers as a cosmetic item from the Gem Store. This is true and if they removed downed state and stomping from the game then they would essentially be nullifying and "deleting" an entire subset of cash shop items. Some people have suggested that they simply change it so that if you land the "killing blow" on an enemy that your finisher is the one that applies over their body when they die. People are right in that it could cause lag and such in an already laggy mode for many.

 

I have a different solution. Turn it into an emote or an effect similar to Novelties. Players already "taunt" with /laugh or /sleep and other things that even enemy players can see and they already throw siege onto your corpse if they want to "bm" you, and the premise of Finishers is already kind of a taunt, don't you think? Dropping an SAB pixel explosion onto that enemy you just downed? The Llama finisher? Choya? Hidden Minstrel? All rather...taunting but "fun" and "funny", right? So if the concern for Anet is that Finishers would just become obsolete then why not shift their use? Turn them into "Taunts" or "Boasts", I'm sure there could be another name. It would also make it something usable in PvE and probably give more incentive to PvE players to actually buy these cosmetic items as they wouldn't need to play in PvP to see something they spent money or gems on.

 

I went on a bit of a rant here, wall of text, sorry about that.

[Razor.6392]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > Not often do you see a thread full of people publicly admitting how bad they're at the game.

> >

> > If you complain about no-downstate it means you die all the time, did you know that? So how about... not dying?

>

> can't tell if troll or serious

>

> ever had a 50 vs 50 vs 50?

> not a single skill activates, as a melee class you just run with the tag and "absorb" damage so others can 1111111111

>

>

> that's skillag

 

So does that never happen in regular wvw? If anything, no downs mean that the 50v50v50 will be a 20v0v25 in very little time!

 

Seriously, there are no downsides (get it?) to this event. Is better activity also a bad thing?

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Not often do you see a thread full of people publicly admitting how bad they're at the game.

>

> If you complain about no-downstate it means you die all the time, did you know that? So how about... not dying?

 

LOL! It is exactly the oposite. The enemy is dying too fast, before I have a chance to tag them. I can say that the "no downstate" works against my loot bags gathering session. YES, I play in a zerg now.

[Straegen.2938]

The division seems to be between skilled players that enjoy fighting outnumbered and everyone else. When downstate is in effect, bunkers and numbers just have far too much of an advantage. Wailing on a bunker scrapper or a ranger underwater while the leisurely rez their friends is about as fun as watching paint dry.

[briggah.7910]

week long events are useless when you can't even manage to balance match ups yet.. relinking is useless when you can't even balance linkings yet. looks like another 2 month break for me

[MithranArkanere.8957]

The only reason this event actually exists is to remind people why downed state should never be removed from WvW, as it gives undeserved kills to precisely the kind of player that uses the kind of build that should have never existed in the first place.

[aspirine.5839]

It's only for a week. Soon you can go back to the interesting gameplay of dowing, and instarez, downing and instarez again. .. that is indeed so much fun...

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> The only reason this event actually exists is to remind people why downed state should never be removed from WvW, as it gives undeserved kills to precisely the kind of player that uses the kind of build that should have never existed in the first place.

 

It also shows who's getting carried by downed state.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"siggy.9521" said:

> BOO! Did anyone ask for it?

 

Yes. Lots of people prefer no downed state, actually.

(I have no opinion; I don't think it matters much in the long run.)

[Mil.3562]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"siggy.9521" said:

> > BOO! Did anyone ask for it?

>

> Yes. Lots of people prefer no downed state, actually.

> (I have no opinion; I don't think it matters much in the long run.)

 

You mean lots of vocal forumers here prefer no downed state. Probably the same ones that asked for Warclaw nerfs...

 

But that was before we have Warclaws. Ever since we have the mount, i don't see topics requesting for this. As i mentioned in my other post, the mount is like a lite version of no downed state.

 

Anyway, i stopped WvWing since two weeks ago. So ANet can continue to please those mount haters and nerf everything we like about the warclaw to the ground. Idc. Really.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Mil.3562" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"siggy.9521" said:

> > > BOO! Did anyone ask for it?

> >

> > Yes. Lots of people prefer no downed state, actually.

> > (I have no opinion; I don't think it matters much in the long run.)

>

> You mean lots of vocal forumers here prefer no downed state.

No, I don't mean that. I mean that lots of people prefer it, otherwise I would have typed something else.

And ANet doesn't do things because people are vocal about it, unless they like the idea themselves already

 

> Probably the same ones that asked for Warclaw nerfs...

what has that got to do with anything related to "no downstate"? Either it's a good idea or it isn't; it doesn't matter _why_ people favor it.

 

 

> But that was before we have Warclaws.

No, it was before, during, and since.

 

> Ever since we have the mount, i don't see topics requesting for this.

We've had the Warclaw for six weeks; not a lot of time for posts of any sort.

 

> As i mentioned in my other post, the mount is like a lite version of no downed state.

I'm glad you're clear on how you think of it. Not everyone agrees.

 

> Anyway, i stopped WvWing since two weeks ago.

Then why are you so sure you know what people in WvW want this week?

 

> So ANet can continue to please those mount haters and nerf everything we like about the warclaw to the ground.

Lots of people who love the Warclaw think that the mount was overpowered and needed some alterations.

 

And regardless, this thread is about the downstate, not about the Warclaw.

 

> Idc. Really.

Apparently you do care, otherwise why would you spend your time posting?

 

 

[SweetPotato.7456]

> @"siggy.9521" said:

> BOO! Did anyone ask for it?

 

Definitely not me :P but only one week, so its fine.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > The only reason this event actually exists is to remind people why downed state should never be removed from WvW, as it gives undeserved kills to precisely the kind of player that uses the kind of build that should have never existed in the first place.

>

> It also shows who's getting carried by downed state.

 

Nor can they blame "rallybots" anymore.

[Razor.6392]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> The only reason this event actually exists is to remind people why downed state should never be removed from WvW, as it gives undeserved kills to precisely the kind of player that uses the kind of build that should have never existed in the first place.

 

"Undeserved kills"

 

You know, there's no one holding you and making you play worse, right? If you get downed in a 1v1, you would still die (unless you're a ranger).

 

Maybe just play better.

[crepuscular.9047]

MAKE IT PERMANENT!!! **\*RWOAR\***

[DeadlySynz.3471]

The upside to no downstate:

 

- Completely changes the dynamic of how the game is played

- Routinely breaks up zergs.. _because_

- It exposes bad players and guilds, or groups otherwise known for their sustain due to the ability to rez their downs

 

The downside to no downstate:

 

- Less loot bags

 

I'll gladly take the loot bag trade off any day for the above 3

[Ni In.6578]

This is the best week to be in T4, especially when paired with Mag.

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"Ni In.6578" said:

> This is the best week to be in T4, especially when paired with Mag.

 

Is mag cloud still even a thing anymore?

 

[Celsith.2753]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"Ni In.6578" said:

> > This is the best week to be in T4, especially when paired with Mag.

>

> Is mag cloud still even a thing anymore?

>

 

There's been moments this week that certainly reminded me of it.

 

And lol less loot bags? I'm drowning in them :/ Only problem I have with ranger week, err no down state week, is the group therapy needed to get my friends to log in when down state comes back D:

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > The only reason this event actually exists is to remind people why downed state should never be removed from WvW, as it gives undeserved kills to precisely the kind of player that uses the kind of build that should have never existed in the first place.

>

> "Undeserved kills"

>

> You know, there's no one holding you and making you play worse, right? If you get downed in a 1v1, you would still die (unless you're a ranger).

>

> Maybe just play better.

 

It's called integrity. I have plenty of characters that I could equip with one of those broken builds, but then I would become part of the problem, and that would leave me with a bath aftertaste.

And all the times I do get rid of one of these exploiters, it feels much better than it would do if I was playing their same dirty game.

 

I suppose that is an attitude that will be hard to understand by by those who believe in exploiting anything broken that should not be there in the first place, and whining about 'nerfs' when they finally get fixed. And of course ruining the game mode in the process as they make it hostile to newer and less frequent players, and only cause it to lose players over time.

When someone thinks that playing 'better' consists on exploiting flaws in the system and figuring out gimmicks that nullify enemy counters in ways that should simply not be possible, it's very hard to make them understand reality. They get the rush from their victories, get used to it, and end up believing in that they have skill themselves.

Have a bunch of people believing the same, and you get a clique that will cover each other and push back and muffle anyone trying to make people listen to reason.

Such is the reality of human nature.

[Razor.6392]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > The only reason this event actually exists is to remind people why downed state should never be removed from WvW, as it gives undeserved kills to precisely the kind of player that uses the kind of build that should have never existed in the first place.

> >

> > "Undeserved kills"

> >

> > You know, there's no one holding you and making you play worse, right? If you get downed in a 1v1, you would still die (unless you're a ranger).

> >

> > Maybe just play better.

>

> It's called integrity. I have plenty of characters that I could equip with one of those broken builds, but then I would become part of the problem, and that would leave me with a bath aftertaste.

> And all the times I do get rid of one of these exploiters, it feels much better than it would do if I was playing their same dirty game.

>

> I suppose that is an attitude that will be hard to understand by by those who believe in exploiting anything broken that should not be there in the first place, and whining about 'nerfs' when they finally get fixed. And of course ruining the game mode in the process as they make it hostile to newer and less frequent players, and only cause it to lose players over time.

> When someone thinks that playing 'better' consists on exploiting flaws in the system and figuring out gimmicks that nullify enemy counters in ways that should simply not be possible, it's very hard to make them understand reality. They get the rush from their victories, get used to it, and end up believing in that they have skill themselves.

> Have a bunch of people believing the same, and you get a clique that will cover each other and push back and muffle anyone trying to make people listen to reason.

> Such is the reality of human nature.

 

Are you slow? Even with downstate you would still get obliterated by these builds if found alone. Just play better.

 

The worst culprits are backstab thief and GS mesmer, but that has more to do with stealth than the nature of burst damage. Also, the former is screwed if he messes up, while the latter takes more skill than most builds in the game to pull off.

 

Fresh air ele, rifle deadeye are a joke and die to sustain / pressure and any sort of projectile reflect respectively.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"siggy.9521" said:

> Did anyone ask for it?

 

I aksded Sanny Claws every years for no clownstate.

[Shroud.2307]

I wish this had been in effect last week when I 1v3'd on the Anzalias hill against 2 Rangers and a Thief as a Reaper. I died because pet rez + Thief stealthing them when they downed eventually out paced me after all of them went in to downed state at least twice each. Yeah they weren't very good, so it certainly wouldn't have been a huge triumph had I won, but times like that are disheartening. So much effort just to eventually lose because of a mechanic that cushions mistakes.

 

That said, I'm not one of those who hates downed state either. It absolutely has it's benefits so I wouldn't advocate for the permanent removal. Still, these events are fun for players who prefer to do things alone or in small groups because it greatly improves the chances of winning outnumbered fights by eliminating the resources needed to finish downed players.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

For the longest time I never understood why so many players clamored for it.

 

But after many hours of playtime this event, I have to confess I rather enjoy it.

 

From a purely zerg perspective, the fights are much faster, and rallying is no longer a thing that stall your push. I also no longer have to swap to targets who are in downed state to cleave them down before they get rallied.

 

Additionally, as a Hammer Rev wearing full zerk, I haven't been "blown up" once by a soulbeast or whatever. In fact the only time I got uber nuked was by duo of mirage/holosmith, just running typical roaming builds.

 

So if there are tons of glass deadeyes and soulbeasts out there trying to take advantage of no downed state, I haven't seen it.

 

TLDR: Surprisingly I find myself liking no downed state, and while I don't think WvW needs to adopt this as a permanent thing, I wouldn't object to it either.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> I wish this had been in effect last week when I 1v3'd on the Anzalias hill against 2 Rangers and a Thief as a Reaper. I died because pet rez + Thief stealthing them when they downed eventually out paced me after all of them went in to downed state at least twice each. Yeah they weren't very good, so it certainly wouldn't have been a huge triumph had I won, but times like that are disheartening. So much effort just to eventually lose because of a mechanic that cushions mistakes.

>

> That said, I'm not one of those who hates downed state either. It absolutely has it's benefits so I wouldn't advocate for the permanent removal. Still, these events are fun for players who prefer to do things alone or in small groups because it greatly improves the chances of winning outnumbered fights by eliminating the resources needed to finish downed players.

The argument here would be... what is a hard fight and what is an easy fight? Did you want a hard fight or is your intention to make it easier if its too hard? Judging your strength is part of the game. You should have called for backup - sounds like you would have won with just one additional friendly.

 

Because you're not really *"supposed"* to be able to win 1v3. Being able win loose *that* mechanic, which is rather ironic given how many screams for balanced numbers... To reiterate what I've said before - we dont *really* want fights. We just want to **win**. Downed state works both ways to counteract it.