Party kicking mechanics.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Koods.9815" said:

> > So your solutions are to don't play with random people.. Really. If I had people to play with, I'd surely not complain about LFG and party mechanics. I have to pray to all possible gods just to get a decent group to do some content, yes, of course, they want to finish this content too, but for what price.. Consider nice playtrough of Arah with friendly teammates, and then group toxic people who joins YOUR LFG and votes you off because you dare to die in Arah, since it's very hard dungeon, and some mobs actualy instakills even high mastery players. The whole point is, I always like to start the party, because if I join some, I often just jump into unknown group, but if I make one, I can meet them one by one, and find out if they are cool or not. But it should still be MINE party, not that someone can take it over. That's how it works in any other mmos, and nobody is complaining. If I had guild to run dungeons and fractals with, I'd not need to relly on LFG and random players, but.. either there are far too big guilds that does not care about newbies or people at all (grindfest guilds) or smaller inactive guilds, shame >.<

>

> If this happens so often maybe the problem aint the people joining?

 

This.

 

At some point, one has to reflect on one self and ask the unappealing question: if every one has a problem with me, maybe it's me and not them.

[Yamazuki.6073]

> @"notebene.3190" said:

> > @"Rukario.1695" said:

> > If reporting for abuse / harassment ever did anything and toxic players felt they would even get a warning, then this would never happen. Even a "strike" system would help.

>

> Sadly, everything in business these days is about 'revenue streams', where you get money and don't have to add anything to get it, particularly labor, which is costly. They aren't going to pay for that kind of labor. It's why we lost a lot of the longer term people we knew, once Mr. Whistlebritches drew the attention of NCSoft with his grand ideas of "Guild Wars: Samsung Smart Fridge + Doorbell" (?) , they were the first to go because they were expensive labor.

>

> If they could staff it with labor like Uber or Lyft, 'gig-economy' type labor, where you don't even have to recognize them as employees (?), they might be able to staff an enforcement team like that.

 

Game moderation doesn't require much labor beyond getting an automated system. Larger games aren't moderated by Humans, but by automated systems that are reviewed by a small team, as games with huge populations realistically can't be moderated by Humans unless their player base were saints or they didn't have to pay employees. This is why League back then had the player base vote on whether people were punished or not before they could automate it all; this is also why chat behavior sees quick punishments, but game play harassment/trolling takes longer as these have to be reviewed by Humans.

 

> @"Koods.9815" said:

then they wonder why did we keep dying and losing soo much time..

 

Dungeons aren't difficult, and most bosses can be bursted down very quickly with 1-2 people. If people don't know how to play pre-80 it wouldn't change much if they were 80 either.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" illustrated perfectly the problems of the old system.

 

Both systems have many many problems but what could work is a choice. A toggle if you are a party leader to switch kick method, obviously not able to toggle it after the group is formed, to prevent abuse. Also, it should be clearly visible which "vote method" is used by the group, especially on the LFG. Two simple choices: "Group leader is the boss" or "Vote kicking only" or even a "No kicking" option as well. Not sure how easy it would be to implement a choice but it gets the best (and the worst) of all options.

[Daddicus.6128]

The current mechanic is OK. But, near the end of a dungeon (or fractal), the requirement should go up from 3/5 to 4/5 (or 3/4 if someone else leaves). It shouldn't be possible to get kicked when you worked all the way to the end, or even close to it. Unless you're a real jerk (i.e. EVERYBODY else agrees to kick).

[Hashberry.4510]

Its odd, I do not recall it being this bad back in WoW, even when the auto group system started up. Maybe so many groups were available the clowns were diluted out.

[Daddicus.6128]

One other possibility: the party leader must be one of those agreeing with the kick. (Which would require re-implementing the party leader concept.)

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Koods.9815" said:

> > But.. it's my party,

> It's not.

>

> ****

> When the game launched, the person who started the group was the leader; they had the power to kick anyone/everyone. Here's a few of the things that happened:

> * Leader would take on 4 PUGs. Get to the final boss. Kick all four, invite friends.

> * Group would get to final boss, dislike something that one of the people did, kick them before the fight.

> * Leader would DC; group would get kicked from instance (since the two mechanics are intertwined).

> * Leader would be the toxic one, Leeroying this way and that, messing up mechanics, etc. The other four could do nothing.

> * Leader would go AFK. And not return. The other four could do nothing: leader would get rewards, even if the rest four-personed the instance.

>

> People begged and screamed for something better. (And to be fair: calmer voices also offered suggestions.)

>

> Over time, the system evolved to the current mechanic: majority rules. Two people can't kick anyone _in a full party_; it takes three votes.

>

> ****

> tl;dr current system isn't perfect. It might not even be "good". It's just less worse than any of the alternatives.

 

Oh man.. you're dragging up some bad repressed memories XD

 

I'd forgotten about the old party system.. yeah that was really bad.

Nothing worse than spending over an hour in Arah and finally about to beat Lupi for the first time and the whole group gets kicked cause party leader DC'd..

I didn't try Arah again for years after that lmao!! XD

[Linken.6345]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> One other possibility: the party leader must be one of those agreeing with the kick. (Which would require re-implementing the party leader concept.)

 

What if you want to kick the defacto party leader?

[Game of Bones.8975]

tl;dr all posts

 

Is there a mechanic is place, or should there be, to make it so a party cannot kick once the fractal has started? Meaning if you want to kick someone, it kicks the whole team and you start over.

 

People have the chance to determine before starting combat who they want in their team.

[Captain Prinny.6492]

The main point is, they designed 2 systems which cannot be interchanged on every occasion.

 

You basically want to have a 5 man SQUAD in the Dungeon so you can command the squad and have the veto on everything. As explained earlier the system was way to easy to abuse and hat other problems as well.

 

The new system is a majority-rule and you have to accept that in its entirety. The tool is called "LFG" as in "Looking for GROUP" not "Looking for GOONS" in the 5 man version.

The moment you put your group up there you are looking for 4 more individuals with the same status and options as yourself. it is not YOUR group, it wasn't yours, to begin with ; -P

 

* Has the systems its flaws? **Absolutely!**

* Should they Implement a better solution? **Maybe** as "better" may be disputable.

* Should they revert to the old status of "Party leader+4 Goons"? **Never**, see above-mentioned problems.

* Should they give the **additional** option to join instanced content with Squads? **Disputable**, I say nay - because it splits the player base and reopens the playing field to the old abusive options and will reflect in even more toxic behavior OVERALL, in relation of instanced content, imho.

 

"Ping your legendary gear, your Ascalonian Tears (Dungeon tokens) and AP"......"what? No 20k Tokens?/No Legendary Ring?/ No 30k AP?" *Boots you from party*

 

[RoseofGilead.8907]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> tl;dr all posts

>

> Is there a mechanic is place, or should there be, to make it so a party cannot kick once the fractal has started? Meaning if you want to kick someone, it kicks the whole team and you start over.

 

No, that shouldn't happen, in my opinion. You don't always know the quality of character of the people you're playing with. You shouldn't be forced to keep Random Person if he/she starts ranting and raving at others, saying awful things, goes afk for the entire Fractal, tries to troll the run, etc. And the rest of the group shouldn't have to completely reset their progress just because Random Person was a jerk and got kicked.

 

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Hm let's see if we can solve all of those problems in 5 seconds here:

> 1. Restrict party joining once the first boss of a dungeon/fractal has been killed

> 2. This one isn't actually a problem; if you act like a kitten, you should be able to be kicked, no matter how far into the dungeon

> 3. Fix the netcode

> 4. Leave the party and start your own

> 5. Leave the party and start your own

 

3. OK, but if the D/C is because there's a dead router between the server and the leader?(1) Or if the leader's power goes out? What then?

 

No, "fix the netcode" will not solve that. If the leader's power is out, no netcode in the world can reach his computer, or even run on it.

 

(1) Yes, the Internet is supposed to be robust against that sort of thing, but the robustness isn't instantaneous, and if the dead router is the one at the other end of the leader's Internet connection, there is no such robustness. And maybe it's not the router that's dead. Maybe there are roadworks and someone put a backhoe's scoop through the cable / fibre(2).

 

(2) I have fibre Internet, and I'm very pleased with it, but the fibre in the street can be severed by a backhoe just as easily as an ADSL line can.

[Daddicus.6128]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > One other possibility: the party leader must be one of those agreeing with the kick. (Which would require re-implementing the party leader concept.)

>

> What if you want to kick the defacto party leader?

 

You can't. Advantage for forming a party, I guess.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > > One other possibility: the party leader must be one of those agreeing with the kick. (Which would require re-implementing the party leader concept.)

> >

> > What if you want to kick the defacto party leader?

>

> You can't. Advantage for forming a party, I guess.

 

Yea and thats why people dont want it back noone should be immune to kicking.

Edit

And please dont come but but raids do it, you dont have to start a raid over from first encounter if someone kicks you at the last boss.

[Ygdrasill.9135]

I played WoW for several years and there were times certain dungeons and raids would require a fairly long wait to get added to a group. Usually it worked out ok, but there were occasions where a real kitten would turn up and they'd be booted out pretty fast. I never voted to boot somebody over their DPS being low as long as they were at least trying,

[DKRathalos.9625]

I think not allowing someone join your party when he is in blocked list could be good idea. You know now you party with him for once but never again once you put in blocked list.

[Linken.6345]

> @"DKRathalos.9625" said:

> I think not allowing someone join your party when he is in blocked list could be good idea. You know now you party with him for once but never again once you put in blocked list.

 

And how will this work in squads is 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 50 enough to no let the blocked guy join?

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Should be possible to use commander tag in dungeons/fractals with all its tools (markers, kick option, ready check etc)

[Mork.9532]

A few ideas on this topic:

Maybe not give all power to the party creator, but give his vote more influence. Like, his vote worth 2 or 3 normal votes.

 

And for the rest, I think it's more the LFG that should be upgraded. The possibility to put a level requirement to join (for people who believe it really means something :D) or an AP requirement. Same with AR: so people with like 10 AR won't join tier 3 fractal groups. Lacking a bit of AR is no big deal, but some players really take this too far and keep on dying for nothing.

Adding a cutscene auto-skip that is applied to all players in the party, would be usefull, too. And of course, make those options visible in the LFG. So, if you join a party that skips cutscenes, you know it before joining (I'm thinking of new players who probably would like to discover the cutscenes).

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I never had a problem with being kicked or kicking people. So far all the groups I ever done fractals or dungeons with only kicked people who left, either by dc or just logging off.

 

Well, I mostly play either with guild mates or complete randoms. Nobody expects a speedrun or perfect execution so the overall mindset is 'live and let live'. When I mentored some newbies who really wanted to try a dungeon, I put it on lfg with a 'newbie group, no skipping' and the vets who joined were fine with that.

 

Don't join a speedrun group if you want to enjoy the cinematics and scenery and don't expect a speedrun when you join a herd of newbie cats. Keep that in mind and drama just does not happen.

 

That said, I am fine with the new system.

[FOX.3582]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > @"Taygus.4571" said:

> > > > > They used to have it that party leader goes. But that was far more toxic.

> > > >

> > > > I want to correct this! They used to have a system that made the complete group exit the instance if the “leader” left, which is AMAZINGLY stupid. Arenanet then wanted to change that (it should’ve not been like that in the first place, because like I said before, it is AMAZINGLY stupid, and people who design stuff like that should be fired on the spot) and of course, we all know Arenanet; instead of making it work perfectly like it works in most MMO’s, they chose to design a system like it is now. A system where people can join the party that YOU have created on the LFG could kick you after spending an hour in an instance, just for the fun of it if they really want to.

> > >

> > > You are leaving out the fact that the party leader had total control, completely beside the point that the instance was saved to him.

> > >

> > > Second, partying does not work "perfectly" in other MMOs. Each system has its issues and a sole control system has its own. Please don't pretend otherwise.

> > >

> > > The current system via majority vote is not ideal, but it is far from as problematic as people make it out to be.

> > >

> > > - You can easily work within the system to prevent abuse. Simply have 1 other friendly player you know with you (this is a MMORPG after all, if you have 0 social contacts on a regular basis, you might want to start working on other issues first)

> > > - if you get majority voted out of groups on a regular basis, the problem is clearly you and not the system. I have over 7k hours played, about to hit fractal god, have all the dungeon collections done, etc. I have been in lots of groups for group content. I can count the times I was kicked from group on 1 hand.

> >

> > I don’t agree. In my opinion, when you are the party leader, you should have the right to abuse.

>

> See, and that's where I'm sure many will disagree.

>

> > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > And if you don’t want to take a risk by joining a group and hope your party leader isn’t an a$$h0le, you should make your own group, just like it works in real life. The system as it is now is also bad, because I should be able to do what I want with the group, and when the other players disagree they should be able to leave instead of kicking the one who MADE the group. That’s how it works everywhere, and that is how it should work in this game too. But hey, we have to think about the “special” people too right?

>

> If the majority of players in the group want you out, it's easier for them to replace you and you start a new group. Hence a majority system is in place. The fact that you started the LFG is of no consequence. The net result would be the same if the people left and reformed. This way the required workload and organization across all involved players is kept to a minimum. If this keeps happening to someone, they need to work on personal social skills. Which in turn would be even more a reason to not give such a player total control.

>

> Your real life example lacks 1 essential component: payment. I guarantee you, a majority of people would not support/work/stick with you in real life if you are mistreating them unless they get payed, and even then some will leave.

 

I agree with you on the social aspect. But I still think it’s really wrong that the creator of the party can be kicked.

[Linken.6345]

> @"FOX.3582" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > @"Taygus.4571" said:

> > > > > > They used to have it that party leader goes. But that was far more toxic.

> > > > >

> > > > > I want to correct this! They used to have a system that made the complete group exit the instance if the “leader” left, which is AMAZINGLY stupid. Arenanet then wanted to change that (it should’ve not been like that in the first place, because like I said before, it is AMAZINGLY stupid, and people who design stuff like that should be fired on the spot) and of course, we all know Arenanet; instead of making it work perfectly like it works in most MMO’s, they chose to design a system like it is now. A system where people can join the party that YOU have created on the LFG could kick you after spending an hour in an instance, just for the fun of it if they really want to.

> > > >

> > > > You are leaving out the fact that the party leader had total control, completely beside the point that the instance was saved to him.

> > > >

> > > > Second, partying does not work "perfectly" in other MMOs. Each system has its issues and a sole control system has its own. Please don't pretend otherwise.

> > > >

> > > > The current system via majority vote is not ideal, but it is far from as problematic as people make it out to be.

> > > >

> > > > - You can easily work within the system to prevent abuse. Simply have 1 other friendly player you know with you (this is a MMORPG after all, if you have 0 social contacts on a regular basis, you might want to start working on other issues first)

> > > > - if you get majority voted out of groups on a regular basis, the problem is clearly you and not the system. I have over 7k hours played, about to hit fractal god, have all the dungeon collections done, etc. I have been in lots of groups for group content. I can count the times I was kicked from group on 1 hand.

> > >

> > > I don’t agree. In my opinion, when you are the party leader, you should have the right to abuse.

> >

> > See, and that's where I'm sure many will disagree.

> >

> > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > And if you don’t want to take a risk by joining a group and hope your party leader isn’t an a$$h0le, you should make your own group, just like it works in real life. The system as it is now is also bad, because I should be able to do what I want with the group, and when the other players disagree they should be able to leave instead of kicking the one who MADE the group. That’s how it works everywhere, and that is how it should work in this game too. But hey, we have to think about the “special” people too right?

> >

> > If the majority of players in the group want you out, it's easier for them to replace you and you start a new group. Hence a majority system is in place. The fact that you started the LFG is of no consequence. The net result would be the same if the people left and reformed. This way the required workload and organization across all involved players is kept to a minimum. If this keeps happening to someone, they need to work on personal social skills. Which in turn would be even more a reason to not give such a player total control.

> >

> > Your real life example lacks 1 essential component: payment. I guarantee you, a majority of people would not support/work/stick with you in real life if you are mistreating them unless they get payed, and even then some will leave.

>

> I agree with you on the social aspect. But I still think it’s really wrong that the creator of the party can be kicked.

 

Well just pay the other 4-9 people to drag you along then.

[FOX.3582]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > @"Taygus.4571" said:

> > > > > > > They used to have it that party leader goes. But that was far more toxic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I want to correct this! They used to have a system that made the complete group exit the instance if the “leader” left, which is AMAZINGLY stupid. Arenanet then wanted to change that (it should’ve not been like that in the first place, because like I said before, it is AMAZINGLY stupid, and people who design stuff like that should be fired on the spot) and of course, we all know Arenanet; instead of making it work perfectly like it works in most MMO’s, they chose to design a system like it is now. A system where people can join the party that YOU have created on the LFG could kick you after spending an hour in an instance, just for the fun of it if they really want to.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are leaving out the fact that the party leader had total control, completely beside the point that the instance was saved to him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Second, partying does not work "perfectly" in other MMOs. Each system has its issues and a sole control system has its own. Please don't pretend otherwise.

> > > > >

> > > > > The current system via majority vote is not ideal, but it is far from as problematic as people make it out to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > - You can easily work within the system to prevent abuse. Simply have 1 other friendly player you know with you (this is a MMORPG after all, if you have 0 social contacts on a regular basis, you might want to start working on other issues first)

> > > > > - if you get majority voted out of groups on a regular basis, the problem is clearly you and not the system. I have over 7k hours played, about to hit fractal god, have all the dungeon collections done, etc. I have been in lots of groups for group content. I can count the times I was kicked from group on 1 hand.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t agree. In my opinion, when you are the party leader, you should have the right to abuse.

> > >

> > > See, and that's where I'm sure many will disagree.

> > >

> > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > And if you don’t want to take a risk by joining a group and hope your party leader isn’t an a$$h0le, you should make your own group, just like it works in real life. The system as it is now is also bad, because I should be able to do what I want with the group, and when the other players disagree they should be able to leave instead of kicking the one who MADE the group. That’s how it works everywhere, and that is how it should work in this game too. But hey, we have to think about the “special” people too right?

> > >

> > > If the majority of players in the group want you out, it's easier for them to replace you and you start a new group. Hence a majority system is in place. The fact that you started the LFG is of no consequence. The net result would be the same if the people left and reformed. This way the required workload and organization across all involved players is kept to a minimum. If this keeps happening to someone, they need to work on personal social skills. Which in turn would be even more a reason to not give such a player total control.

> > >

> > > Your real life example lacks 1 essential component: payment. I guarantee you, a majority of people would not support/work/stick with you in real life if you are mistreating them unless they get payed, and even then some will leave.

> >

> > I agree with you on the social aspect. But I still think it’s really wrong that the creator of the party can be kicked.

>

> Well just pay the other 4-9 people to drag you along then.

 

Wth is this reaction? That has nothing to do with this topic. With over 1k insights I think I can safely say that no one needs to “drag” me along with anything. Learn to read and interpret, you will have a way better internet experience ...

[avey.4201]

Parties don't have a dedicated leader for a reason, if your face tanking/failing mechanics, not up keeping boons or dps depending on role, it's easier for the 4 to kick 1 than 1 to kick 4 and leave 4 party-less players.

Since you mentioned fractals, mechanics are important to know.

I see players solo running into NPC event of thurmanova/or volcanic, failing the event loses a 5% damage buff, or an extra loot drop depending, or players breaking subject 6 break bar before shield has dropped making the party wipe.

You will find the same in raids, try creating a squad, and getting experienced players, they aren't there for a training group, and will leave if you don't know mechanics/role.

If your dropping flux bombs, or trolling with instabilities it's easier to kick 1 to let the 4 continue, if 4 people are pulling 10k-20k dps while providing boons/doing mechanics, if 1 person pulls 2k dps while not providing boons or healing they are leeching.

[jessiejay.3625]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Koods.9815" said:

> > But.. it's my party,

> It's not.

>

> ****

> When the game launched, the person who started the group was the leader; they had the power to kick anyone/everyone. Here's a few of the things that happened:

> * Leader would take on 4 PUGs. Get to the final boss. Kick all four, invite friends.

> * Group would get to final boss, dislike something that one of the people did, kick them before the fight.

> * Leader would DC; group would get kicked from instance (since the two mechanics are intertwined).

> * Leader would be the toxic one, Leeroying this way and that, messing up mechanics, etc. The other four could do nothing.

> * Leader would go AFK. And not return. The other four could do nothing: leader would get rewards, even if the rest four-personed the instance.

>

> People begged and screamed for something better. (And to be fair: calmer voices also offered suggestions.)

>

> Over time, the system evolved to the current mechanic: majority rules. Two people can't kick anyone _in a full party_; it takes three votes.

>

> ****

> tl;dr current system isn't perfect. It might not even be "good". It's just less worse than any of the alternatives.

 

^ This is the best answer to this topic, most times if I am in your situation, I just leave and recreate a more specific LFG message.