the truth about underwater content.

[derd.6413]

the issue with UW is the combat, it just breaks build, skills becoming unavailable (both weapon and utility skills) which makes certain traits useless. which in extreme cases means you'd have to drag around an extra set of gear just for UW. so a lot of ppl just avoid it entirely

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> Go back and play Honour of the Waves. It's still accessible in Frostgorge Sound. Play through the story and all three exploration paths and see what the only new content you're liable to get for a while is going to made up of.

Even without the underwater combat, HotW explorables are some of the absolute worst content in this game. They are far more repetitive than any of the other explorable paths and have so many immersion breaking bugs that you can't even do a single run without seeing at least one.

They are not representative of any status quo in this game, new or old.

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> > Forgetting how much underwater combat sucks? Not understanding the mixed/negative reception for LW5? Remember dungeons? Go back and play Honour of the Waves. It's still accessible in Frostgorge Sound. Play through the story and all three exploration paths and see what the only new content you're liable to get for a while is going to made up of.

>

> Believe it or not, I am enjoying the underwater challenge of Honor of the Waves. :) Others do, too.

>

> They just need to balance some professions' underwater damage output (e.g., engineer is pretty weak compared to others). Then again, balancing isn't ANet's strong suit.

 

It's not just damage output. The support roles are also terrible. Engineer turrets comes to mind, but possibly one of the worst is Revanant where most of its legends, the whole underpinning of the profession, don't even work there. And bear in mind Rev is the ONLY new, stand-alone profession we've ever been given and they couldn't even be bothered to complete it in that respect. That should show people how little regard has given to underwater combat.

 

So the question becomes, "Why this, why now?" Are they suddenly so flush with money that they feel the time is right to waste even more of it on such a dubious venture? Is this the proverbial, mental break, 'HA! HA! HA! HA! Fire me! I don't care about my job anymore!' moment we're seeing play out here? I hope not.

 

At this late stage of the game(and if seven years in isn't late then I don't know what is) the last thing I personally wanted or expected to see was for supposedly precious moneys and worker hours to be squandered on something so marginal when current professions still aren't balanced, and when we have whole game modes that have been left to rot for years- pvp and WvW, and when it's been hammered into us that because of this financial shortfall we won't even be getting a new expansion, new race, new professions(not elites but an actual stand alone profession) for the long, foreseeable future.

 

But that's just me. And I understand some people enjoy underwater combat. Perhaps after when even more people have jumped ship they'll offer 'Frozen Wilson' minis in the gem store to keep those who are left behind in winterland company.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> It's not just damage output. The support roles are also terrible. [...]

 

Ahhh, you're thinking larger scale, I see. Yes, these things can indeed use an overhaul. But since I doubt we will ever get "underwater content only", I am not that worried, to be honest. :)

[Substance E.4852]

> @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> Everyone detested the underwater content — the underwater PvP map, for example, was removed — but people are so desperate for something new in the game that they want underwater combat.

 

Who's everyone?

 

Underwater pvp was garbage because nothing was balanced properly.

 

Weapons were clunky and class mechanics were all over the place in usefulness compared to on land. A thief on land was hard to catch. Underwater, they were a free kill because they didn't have stealth spam or shadow steps.

 

You couldn't even kill a ranger without killing his pet first because there was no stomp mechanic and the pet revive works in seconds.

 

Underwater content left a sour taste in people's mouths because it was poorly executed, not because the core system was flawed.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Kelly.7019" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

>

> > With free movement throughout the water, players find it harder to orient themselves,

> that's why it's easy & fun to kill players that are bad at x-y-z axis fighting!!! loved that pvp map!

>

>

> >devs need to fill 10 times the space,

> they have already made some pretty beautiful places UW that could be revamped with new hidden treasures & sea cave areas!

> I can see a new Xpac map having secret sea caves that lead to entirely new levels of that map that are hidden until discovered and these levels would not have to be filled with water.

> or

> BIG SCARY SEA MONSTER bosses (the krakken) to scare the kitten out of you as they swim up from behind :D UW maps could be mostly empty like they are with semi-rare spawns of these special loot creatures.

>

> >has a second set of unoptimized imbalanced skills, that can easily require double the effort to develop and balance.

> well they started it, they should finish it :D

>

> > Which simply makes it require more effort and resources than they have available and get less in return making it less cost effective.

> they have all those people now NCSoft made them pull off other projects and focus on GW2 like they should have been doing! With the multiple teams working on GW2 they should have plenty of resources.

>

Definitely agree, but if the persons with the power to aim in that direction see it as too risky and too much effort and/or lack that vision, whatre we gonna do.

[SnowMochi.7602]

> @"XatraZaytrax.2601" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > > - underwater is a hype thats exists only in foruns. In game, the underwater areas are the most empty ones,

> >

> > Because there is _nothing to do_ there! Not because they weren't pretty and it wasn't fun to dive into the ocean and explore.

> >

> > > - Pvp and WvW? i dont even need explain what these communities thinks about underwater.

> >

> > Oh, really? We've had fun underwater fights in WvW on occasion. :)

>

> I loved the old Quaggan area from WVW. Still have a stack of pearl from it in my inventory. The underwater Zerg vs Zerg fights that would break out were epic.

 

Do you have a screenshot? I'd love to see what it was like, since this was prob. slightly before my time.

 

[Zynk.9015]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> I don't know why people dislike it. Honestly, I really don't know.

 

Because when you're on land you hardly ever have to aim the camera up for open-world fights. That's classic MMO design. HoT was very edgy with how contorted, highly vertical maps were introduced, but it's something I applaud anet for because it was certainly a refreshing break from the tried and true formula of level design.

[psizone.8437]

> @"XatraZaytrax.2601" said:

> I loved the old Quaggan area from WVW. Still have a stack of pearl from it in my inventory. The underwater Zerg vs Zerg fights that would break out were epic.

 

Oh man, the Quaggan lake was fantastic for fighting as a condition BM bunker Ranger back in the day.

[Luthan.5236]

Yes "hype" might exist only on forums. Then again: Also people not satisfied are more inclined to raise their voices. So the people complaining about game dying and not enough content ... might also be the minority. ;) (Most people probably are satisfied and really happy and play the game and buy gems.)

 

As for the empty areas: I don't like underwater combat as it is atm. I like the scenery though. Some underwater structures (inquest bases) are nice. I'd like to see more. Also non-underwater where you access an underwater base and can play without water but watch through the open glass the beautiful scenery.

 

My guess would be that for deep sea dragon they are planning the next expansion (but at least 1-2 more years until then) and a bigger revamp of the system. Instead of small stuff. I doubt the existing maps could be fixed to make them more fun. Would need a a lot more. Dedicated underwater maps. Maybe "ships" as mounts. (Submarine.) Mastery and underwater elite spec or something like that.

[Taygus.4571]

I avoid all uw combat where possible. I despise it. I find it very awkward to control character movement. I have difficulty going where I want to go and aiming.

 

I like the idea for it, it's just not for me.

 

If they plan an uw expansion, that's one, I'll never buy. (I honestly wouldn't think an uw expansion would be worth the risk for Anet since it's so diliked.)

[Teratus.2859]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> - underwater is a hype thats exists only in foruns. In game, the underwater areas are the most empty ones,

> - even in zones full of underwater events like Orr no one come back here to swiming around.

 

Because content for it only really exists in old vanilla maps which for the most part have very little content compaired to how much is on the landmass.

The Orr maps are not that active in general unless there are daily's for that region or something that requires people go there like world boss rush etc

 

> - The underwater infusions prices only drops because demand is lower and lower, is probably a Anet test to see if underwater stuff is really a hype.

 

Their prices are ridiculous considering most classes are able to obtain a trait or utility skill that grants a free 25% universal movement speed increase, not to mention the skimmer and the swiftness uptime some classes have access to.

Why would anyone invest in in expensive infusions for each character when they have easier and cheaper options for speed increase?

 

> - Ironically the best "water" related stuff is the Skimmer mount, **because its help you skip the water content**.

 

Just helps you get around faster as I said above, demand for an underwater mount is actually pretty high despite the Skimmers existence.

 

> - Pvp and WvW? i dont even need explain what these communities thinks about underwater.

 

Can't speak for them but personally I enjoyed the Raid on the Capricorn map and have enjoyed the rare underwater skirmish in WvW.

 

The problem with Underwater content is that it is too restricted in terms of build diversity.

Many skills get locked out thus many builds get effectively nerfed, limited weapon skills also factor into this as well.

This is easily fixed by Anet working locked skills into usable ones underwater and allowing more weapons to be equipped in the underwater weapon slot.

Many people in the past have requested for Harpoon/Spear to be equipped as a new two handed land weapon and the same could essentially be done for Trident too.

Likewise there are many land based weapons such as Sword, Dagger, Warhorn, Shield, Sceptor, Focus, Torch and Axe which could be worked into underwater combat and given whole new skill sets there.

There are already interactable items like Swords in gw2 underwater content that replace your default weapon and give you a new weapon skillbar so Anet have already proven that you can use Swords underwater and that there is no reason why our characters shouldn't be able to.

Likewise they have also reworked previously locked skills such as the Flesh Golem to be usable underwater so we know they are willing and able to do this.

Adding an underwater mount on top of that would be more than enough to significantly improve the underwater content in Gw2.

 

With only 3 Dragons left and some speculating that we'll be dealing with all 3 of them fairly soon or maybe even at the same time, the time to finally fix underwater content is either now or it's coming relatively soon.

We'll need such changes for when we deal with the Sea Dragon and the sooner they come into the game the better.

 

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> We'll need such changes for when we deal with the Sea Dragon and the sooner they come into the game the better.

 

I can totally see Anet writing the story in such a way that the dragon turns out to either be peaceful OR is leaving the sea to fight (as stupid as that would be).

Or maybe we use pact submarines to shoot at it, similar to Zhaitan's "battle".

 

[Cambeleg.7632]

> @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> Everyone detested the underwater content — the underwater PvP map, for example, was removed — but people are so desperate for something new in the game that they want underwater combat.

 

Wrong. I'm one out of this "everyone", 'cos I like underwater content. The problem is related with the poor design of a good bunch of skills that aren't available or that have low impact in combat; also, the low option to obtain/craft underwater helmet for your gear (yeah, I know certain events provide them, but seriously, they happen once per year, they can't be bought another way!).

 

This same "detesting attitude" happened when Desert map was launched. WvW players are lazy about accepting new changes (and careful, I *am* a WvW player too), 'cos this affects their "comfort zone" (that is, a plain land with nothing in middle that can disturb their melee trains).

 

For an effective and fun underwater activity, these skills would need to be reworked. And then, people would change their mind.

[Mewcifer.5198]

Honestly the infusions should have just been a currency you use to buy an account-wide swim speed boost. Them being infusions is just ridiculous.

 

But what underwater content really lacks is variety and balance. So many skills do not work underwater (-cries in rev-) and so many builds don't work underwater.

 

Honestly all three weapons should be available on all classes. Each class can have a weapon for power, condi, or support. Skills that currently work need to be balanced and skills that don't work need underwater versions added.

 

And traitlines should be checked to make sure that any bonuses they give can work underwater or have an underwater version.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> - underwater is a hype thats exists only in foruns. In game, the underwater areas are the most empty ones,

> - even in zones full of underwater events like Orr no one come back here to swiming around.

> - The underwater infusions prices only drops because demand is lower and lower, is probably a Anet test to see if underwater stuff is really a hype.

> - Ironically the best "water" related stuff is the Skimmer mount, **because its help you skip the water content**.

> - Pvp and WvW? i dont even need explain what these communities thinks about underwater.

 

Amen!

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Just helps you get around faster as I said above, demand for an underwater mount is actually pretty high despite the Skimmers existence.

Source?

I'm in a capped guild that kicks on 8 days innactive. The chatter is constant and represents a good cross section of the players of this game, from casual to hard core, open world pve derpin to competitive.

Not one single time have I hear a person say "I love the game's underwater content and wish there was more".

I would love to hear your source for measuring this "pretty high" demand.

All I tend to see on the issue of underwater mounts is the same small group of gimme-gimmes on the forums, adding it to the long list of terrible ideas they think the game "needs".

[Trollocks.5084]

Underwater stuff is always just a gimmick. It's fine for a while, but nobody really wants that much of it.

[starhunter.6015]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> - underwater is a hype thats exists only in foruns. In game, the underwater areas are the most empty ones,

Mainly due to lack of content under water,

> - even in zones full of underwater events like Orr no one come back here to swiming around.

I come back so do many in my guild to Orr and Frost gorge to swim around and farm the mobs.

> - The underwater infusions prices only drops because demand is lower and lower, is probably a Anet test to see if underwater stuff is really a hype.

Prices dropped like every new item, once the majority of the players got what they wanted the demand died out.

> - Ironically the best "water" related stuff is the Skimmer mount, **because its help you skip the water content**.

Still prefer a under water mount, but skimmer is fun and I don't feel like it helps me skip water content.

> - Pvp and WvW? i dont even need explain what these communities thinks about underwater.

Just gonna add FA Navy.............

 

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> All I tend to see on the issue of underwater mounts is the same small group of gimme-gimmes on the forums, adding it to the long list of terrible ideas they think the game "needs".

 

The Renown Hearts replaybility, is one of them, before Anet introduced them on LS3, the "gimme-gimmes" louded at forums that would be great play them again, so in the reality is one of most hated thing on LS3 and PoF maps, having stuff locked behimd of the replay of renown heart.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I doubt very much that we have any idea how the community would react if ANet gave the same treatment to Aquatic gaming that they gave to Mounts.

 

> underwater is a hype thats exists only in foruns.

I've yet to see any hype at all about underwater content. Some people really like it. Some like what they imagine its potential to be. Some hate it based on what little there is in the game. Some hate it because it's always been incompletely implemented.

 

I don't think anyone would have been greatly disappointed if the game had launched without underwater. There'd be some comments, but no serious push to have it added. All the same, we really don't know what the game would have been like if ANet had time to finish underwater. Even today, after "nearly" two overhauls to Aquatic, there remain skills and traits that are unusable or worthless underwater, you still can't have separate uw traits, and breathers still have stats, even though the game doesn't require breathers to, you know, breathe.

 

tl;dr I don't think we know "the truth" about aquatic content.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> The Renown Hearts replaybility, is one of them, before Anet introduced them on LS3, the "gimme-gimmes" louded at forums that would be great play them again, so in the reality is one of most hated thing on LS3 and PoF maps, having stuff locked behimd of the replay of renown heart.

 

The problem with the repeatable hearts is not that they are repeatable though.

The problem is that they reset automatically, instead of the repeat being a player choice.

 

 

 

[Knighthonor.4061]

Tag up and advertise your water content group. I am willing to play if others are playing

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > All I tend to see on the issue of underwater mounts is the same small group of gimme-gimmes on the forums, adding it to the long list of terrible ideas they think the game "needs".

>

> The Renown Hearts replaybility, is one of them, before Anet introduced them on LS3, the "gimme-gimmes" louded at forums that would be great play them again, so in the reality is one of most hated thing on LS3 and PoF maps, having stuff locked behimd of the replay of renown heart.

 

I don't know if I think the repeatable hearts are really that bad. I don't think there's more than 4-5 hearts total ofrom S3 to present that isn't doable in 5 mins or so. Maybe a few in Vabbi and that particularly bad one at the north end of Sandswept are offenders. I do generally find that working a repeatable heart, gathering map currency and opening trade caches is decent reward with the bonus currencies. I haven't seen many unlocks behind grindy Hearts.

Were their implementation really to satisfy a community ask?

[CeNedro.7560]

I'd love to see more underwatercontent, though it needs a lot of improvement

-underwatermount for traveling and exploring

-underwater/land skill template and setup should change(big hopes with the announced templates)

-balancing, locked skills and in-fight-movement

-...

 

Underwater has great potential and could be awesome. Hoping that the next expansion focusses on Underwater-Content since the Saga will be going north.